Future scenario for the home aquarium. [Archive]

NetMax

January 16th 06, 03:22 AM

A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:

If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
are noise and water cooling (when needed).

If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also
more money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex
features available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going
more mainstream etc)

If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.

The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).

1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
cost (lightweight and stackable)).
2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
things).
3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
fragile).
4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
floor).
5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
periodically.
6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
away).
7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
through filter return lines).
8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
natural (and interesting).

Problems
1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.
I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
folks always feeding from a top view.

2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
etc).
This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much
of it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing
driftwood into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the
mould). Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small
monitor. This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though
I've worked on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to
see what I'd done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor
would also address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the
action).

Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.

could be very kewl :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

Charles

January 16th 06, 03:45 AM

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:22:45 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>
>If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
>purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
>the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
>difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
>cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
>maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
>changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
>are noise and water cooling (when needed).
>
>If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
>slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also
>more money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex
>features available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going
>more mainstream etc)
>
>If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
>continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
>have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
>where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>
>The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
>basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
>living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).
>
>1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
>cost (lightweight and stackable)).
>2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
>house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
>things).
>3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
>fragile).
>4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
>floor).
>5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
>raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
>periodically.
>6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
>away).
>7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
>placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
>simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
>through filter return lines).
>8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
>9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
>natural (and interesting).
>
>Problems
>1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.
>I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
>folks always feeding from a top view.
>
>2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
>etc).
>This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
>upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
>would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much
>of it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing
>driftwood into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the
>mould). Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small
>monitor. This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though
>I've worked on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to
>see what I'd done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor
>would also address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the
>action).
>
>Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
>circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
>application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
>big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
>400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
>interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
>tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>
>could be very kewl :o)

Then, why have a personal aquarium, a community aquarium could
suffice. Maybe one connected to the net, so people all over the world
could enjoy it.

then someone could come up with the idea of having a small instence of
an aquarium in your very own living room, and start the whole thing
over.

Besides, I don't have a basement.

Koi-lo

January 16th 06, 04:34 AM

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> then someone could come up with the idea of having a small instence of
> an aquarium in your very own living room, and start the whole thing
> over.
>
> Besides, I don't have a basement.
=========================
Neither do we. Few people I know have basements here because of the rock so
close to the surface. And seeing something like a movie is a not like
actually viewing the fish through a piece of glass in front of you.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 16th 06, 04:40 AM

From: "NetMax" >
Subject: Future scenario for the home aquarium.
Date: Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:22 PM

A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:

=========== Brevity snip!

You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some kind of
heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like a heat tape
that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the bowls sitting on
them. I'll be your first customer.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Richard Sexton

January 16th 06, 05:49 AM

I don't think you'd actually want the tank very deep, maybe 2-3'
max, max.

Easier to clean, lighting is far less of an issue, easier and cheaper
to build. If you have fairly large x and y movement you don't care
z is less than super showtank height.

Lots of small camera heads would be cool too, in all axes,
you could pipe the images to displays all over a room
and with enough of them it'd feel like you're moving in the
tank.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 16th 06, 05:55 AM

>You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some kind of
>heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like a heat tape
>that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the bowls sitting on
>them. I'll be your first customer.

Take a 500 - 1500W space heater. Put a glass table over it. Put the
jars on there. Adjust the heater between 500 1000 and 1500W as
the season changes or get a thermostatically controlled one. That'll
heat a small room, too.

We do this with a lizard to keep it at the right temperature. I
must have arctic bettas because they don't mind the cold, the lizard
does though.

That'd probably work for a lot of jars. If you jsut had a few
I'd probably try to make something out of xmas lights, incandescent
ones. One per jar should be enough, jsut make a small base for each
and stuff the bulb inside it. Shim it with rock slices to regulate
the temperature if it's too warm.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Alpha

January 16th 06, 07:40 AM

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:22:45 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>>
>>If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
>>purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
>>the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
>>difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
>>cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
>>maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
>>changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
>>are noise and water cooling (when needed).
>>
>>If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
>>slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>>concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also
>>more money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex
>>features available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going
>>more mainstream etc)
>>
>>If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
>>continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
>>have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
>>where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>>
>>The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
>>basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
>>living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).
>>
>>1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
>>cost (lightweight and stackable)).
>>2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
>>house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
>>things).
>>3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
>>fragile).
>>4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
>>floor).
>>5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
>>raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
>>periodically.
>>6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
>>away).
>>7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
>>placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
>>simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
>>through filter return lines).
>>8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
>>9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
>>natural (and interesting).
>>
>>Problems
>>1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.
>>I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
>>folks always feeding from a top view.
>>
>>2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
>>etc).
>>This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
>>upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
>>would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much
>>of it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing
>>driftwood into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the
>>mould). Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small
>>monitor. This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though
>>I've worked on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to
>>see what I'd done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor
>>would also address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the
>>action).
>>
>>Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
>>circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
>>application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
>>big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
>>400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
>>interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
>>tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>>
>>could be very kewl :o)
>
>
> Then, why have a personal aquarium, a community aquarium could
> suffice. Maybe one connected to the net, so people all over the world
> could enjoy it.
>
> then someone could come up with the idea of having a small instence of
> an aquarium in your very own living room, and start the whole thing
> over.
>
> Besides, I don't have a basement.

Right on.

Dick

January 16th 06, 10:27 AM

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:45:16 GMT, Charles >
wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:22:45 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>
>>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>>
>>If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
>>purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
>>the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
>>difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
>>cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
>>maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
>>changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
>>are noise and water cooling (when needed).
>>
>>If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
>>slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>>concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also
>>more money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex
>>features available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going
>>more mainstream etc)
>>
>>If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
>>continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
>>have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
>>where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>>
>>The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
>>basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
>>living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).
>>
>>1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
>>cost (lightweight and stackable)).
>>2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
>>house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
>>things).
>>3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
>>fragile).
>>4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
>>floor).
>>5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
>>raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
>>periodically.
>>6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
>>away).
>>7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
>>placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
>>simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
>>through filter return lines).
>>8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
>>9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
>>natural (and interesting).
>>
>>Problems
>>1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.
>>I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
>>folks always feeding from a top view.
>>
>>2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
>>etc).
>>This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
>>upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
>>would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much
>>of it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing
>>driftwood into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the
>>mould). Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small
>>monitor. This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though
>>I've worked on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to
>>see what I'd done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor
>>would also address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the
>>action).
>>
>>Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
>>circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
>>application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
>>big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
>>400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
>>interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
>>tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>>
>>could be very kewl :o)
>
>
>Then, why have a personal aquarium, a community aquarium could
>suffice. Maybe one connected to the net, so people all over the world
>could enjoy it.

search Google "fish web cam" It has been done for years already

dick

>
>then someone could come up with the idea of having a small instence of
>an aquarium in your very own living room, and start the whole thing
>over.
>
>Besides, I don't have a basement.

Gill Passman

January 16th 06, 02:06 PM

NetMax wrote:
> A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>
> If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
> purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
> the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
> difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
> cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
> maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
> changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
> are noise and water cooling (when needed).
>
> If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
> slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
> concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also
> more money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex
> features available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going
> more mainstream etc)
>
> If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
> continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
> have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
> where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>
> The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
> basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
> living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).
>
> 1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
> cost (lightweight and stackable)).
> 2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
> house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
> things).
> 3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
> fragile).
> 4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
> floor).
> 5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
> raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
> periodically.
> 6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
> away).
> 7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
> placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
> simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
> through filter return lines).
> 8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
> 9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
> natural (and interesting).
>
> Problems
> 1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.
> I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
> folks always feeding from a top view.
>
> 2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
> etc).
> This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
> upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
> would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much
> of it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing
> driftwood into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the
> mould). Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small
> monitor. This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though
> I've worked on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to
> see what I'd done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor
> would also address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the
> action).
>
> Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
> circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
> application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
> big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
> 400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
> interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
> tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>
> could be very kewl :o)

The drawbacks to this, as I see it, are:-

1. I don't have a basement

2. What material would the tub be made of? If not glass or acrylic then
what are the impacts on any plants not getting sufficient light?

3. The choice then becomes one of watching TV or movies or watching the
fish. In this house I'm sure that I'd be over-ruled and the TV would be
on rather than the tank. OK, you could set up a separate system to watch
the fish but that would take up as much space, and almost certainly cost
more, than having the tank in the first place.

4. We have a house rule, no tank where there is TV - OK I confess I
snuck in the 7.5gall Hex but it's not allowed to be anywhere in the line
of vision - apparently the lights would detract from the screen.

5. We also have a house rule, no TV where there is a "large" fish tank,
as this would detract from watching the fish. The Malawi tank lives in
the "office area" and the Community tank I'm about to upgrade lives in
the Conservatory....no TVs in either of these rooms.

6. Part of the fun, I find, is sitting watching the tank or walking past
one of the tanks and then spotting something happening. Wouldn't work if
I was monitoring just certain areas with a camera. So, lots of
interesting behaviour would be missed IMO.

I think what you are proposing is really a tropical pond which is a fine
concept on it's own but couldn't be a replacement for our glass/acrylic
tanks....

BTW If you could come up with something to automatically clean algae off
of the glass I'm sure that that would catch on much quicker - lol

Gill

spiral_72

January 16th 06, 03:22 PM

You would have to have collision detection for the camera's motion
controller. So, there is added cost. I don't know how you could do such
a thing. I think infared would be out (fish are cold blooded). I
suppose you could use ultrasonics.... Hey you wouldn't want to squash a
fish would you?!?

I don't have a basement either. SOOoooo, can't we just have a virtual
aquarium? They sell SVGA projectors for your computer. Would that work?
Space and maintenance wouldn't be an issue. Initial cost would be about
the same, I should think. You could water cool your processor if you
wanted the "trickle" sound. No?

Gail Futoran

January 16th 06, 03:30 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
[snip]
> If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
> slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
> concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room).

Reading other posts, it seems many people don't
have basements! If I had one, it would become
a family/play room, hence would be a perfect
location for a fish wall. Here in TX, basements
are a rarity. I'm using my living room as a fish
room, same place I watch TV. No real conflict
but there are just 2 of us (and 5 TVs scattered
throughout the house).

[snip]
> If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
> continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
> have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
> where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>
> The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
> basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the >
> living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).

I kind of like the idea. I can't see the fish in
several of my tanks unless I'm standing/sitting
right in front of the tanks. From my usual recliner,
however, I can (and do) use small binoculars to
observe fish in those tanks. The fish aren't
disturbed and I can enjoy the scene. So for me
your idea isn't that much of a stretch.

> 1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
> cost (lightweight and stackable)).
> 2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
> house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
> things).
> 3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
> fragile).
> 4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
> floor).
> 5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
> raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
> periodically.
> 6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
> away).
> 7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
> placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
> simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
> through filter return lines).
> 8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
> 9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
> natural (and interesting).

Sounds lovely.

> Problems
> 1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.

Um, I'm also a pond owner and I like to watch
pond fish eat. :)

> I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
> folks always feeding from a top view.

Automated feeding from the comfort of your
living room? A remote control feeder. :)

> 2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
> etc).
> This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
> upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside.

Advances in tools could help with that. There are
relatively few tools available to use in aquatic
gardening compared to terrestrial gardening. If
more hobbyists got into aquatic gardening, and
your tub notion, the number & kinds of tools would
increase.

This
> would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much of
> it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing driftwood
> into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the mould).
> Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small monitor.
> This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though I've worked
> on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to see what I'd
> done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor would also
> address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the action).
>
> Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
> circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
> application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
> big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
> 400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
> interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your >
> tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>
> could be very kewl :o)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

I like the idea of a Really Very Large tank that I
could inhabit with schools of my favorite small
fish. :)

Gail

Rocco Moretti

January 16th 06, 03:41 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> How about inventing some
> kind of heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like
> a heat tape that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the
> bowls sitting on them. I'll be your first customer.

For christmas I got a beverage mug warmer. It doesn't really heat the
mug, it just maintains temperature. Are you thinking of something like
that? Granted, the setpoint of a coffee warmer is going to be much
hotter than that for a betta bowl, but a little tweaking by the
manufacturer should fix that.

Not the one I got, but gives you an idea:
http://www.brookstone.com/shop/product.asp?product_code=236117

Koi-lo

January 16th 06, 03:53 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some kind
> >of
>>heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like a heat
>>tape
>>that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the bowls sitting on
>>them. I'll be your first customer.
>
> Take a 500 - 1500W space heater. Put a glass table over it. Put the
> jars on there. Adjust the heater between 500 1000 and 1500W as
> the season changes or get a thermostatically controlled one. That'll
> heat a small room, too.

It would be too expensive. Electricity isn't cheap anymore. Also, the
excess heat would be totally wasted. I want them where I can see and enjoy
them, like on the windowsill they're on now. And I don't really have any
room for a table in here.

> We do this with a lizard to keep it at the right temperature. I
> must have arctic bettas because they don't mind the cold, the lizard
> does though.

My bettas are living at 70 to 74F in winter. A little warmer wouldn't hurt
them.

> That'd probably work for a lot of jars. If you jsut had a few
> I'd probably try to make something out of xmas lights, incandescent
> ones. One per jar should be enough, jsut make a small base for each
> and stuff the bulb inside it. Shim it with rock slices to regulate
> the temperature if it's too warm.

Make a base for each bulb? What's a "base?" I would rather have something
like a heat-tape to sit the jars on than Jerry-rig something I may
electrocute them or myself with. :-) BTW, those small x-mas lights can
get pretty darn hot.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 16th 06, 04:41 PM

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> How about inventing some kind of heater for betta bowls to sit on and be
>> heated? You know, like a heat tape that runs along the window sill,
>> table or shelf with the bowls sitting on them. I'll be your first
>> customer.
>
> For christmas I got a beverage mug warmer. It doesn't really heat the mug,
> it just maintains temperature. Are you thinking of something like that?

Not really. I'm thinking more of something like a "heat tape" for pipes but
that lays flat so betta bowls can sit on it in a row. I used to sit them
all on top of a fluorescent light fixture atop a 30L tank. That fixture
keep them warm, but the set-up I have now - that wouldn't work.

Granted, the setpoint of a coffee warmer is going to be much
> hotter than that for a betta bowl, but a little tweaking by the
> manufacturer should fix that.
>
> Not the one I got, but gives you an idea:
> http://www.brookstone.com/shop/product.asp?product_code=236117

That would be too expensive for those of us with more than one or two
bettas.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Ross T.

January 16th 06, 05:03 PM

It might work for some, but I like my fish up close and personal like
:-). Even the best video pictures couldn't do justice, to the beauty of
our tropical friends. You've got a great imagination friend, and a great
deal of knowledge and experience. I enjoy reading your input, to this group.

Take Care
Ross T

Larry Blanchard

January 16th 06, 05:33 PM

Koi-lo wrote:

> You have too much time on your hands.**;-)**How*about*inventing*some
> kind*of heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated?**You*know,
> like*a*heat*tape that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with
> the bowls sitting on them.**I'll*be*your*first*customer.

Have you looked at the heating mats for starting seeds in flats? They
sit under the flat and the temperature should be in the 75-85 degree
range.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Richard Sexton

January 16th 06, 07:12 PM

In article >, Koi-lo <Do Not Reply> wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> >You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some kind
>> >of
>>>heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like a heat
>>>tape
>>>that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the bowls sitting on
>>>them. I'll be your first customer.
>>
>> Take a 500 - 1500W space heater. Put a glass table over it. Put the
>> jars on there. Adjust the heater between 500 1000 and 1500W as
>> the season changes or get a thermostatically controlled one. That'll
>> heat a small room, too.
>
>It would be too expensive. Electricity isn't cheap anymore. Also, the
>excess heat would be totally wasted. I want them where I can see and enjoy
>them, like on the windowsill they're on now. And I don't really have any
>room for a table in here.

That setup would do hundreds of jars. Scale down as required.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 16th 06, 07:15 PM

In article >, Koi-lo <Do Not Reply> wrote:
>
>"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>> How about inventing some kind of heater for betta bowls to sit on and be
>>> heated? You know, like a heat tape that runs along the window sill,
>>> table or shelf with the bowls sitting on them. I'll be your first
>>> customer.
>>
>> For christmas I got a beverage mug warmer. It doesn't really heat the mug,
>> it just maintains temperature. Are you thinking of something like that?
>
>Not really. I'm thinking more of something like a "heat tape" for pipes but
>that lays flat so betta bowls can sit on it in a row. I used to sit them
>all on top of a fluorescent light fixture atop a 30L tank. That fixture
>keep them warm, but the set-up I have now - that wouldn't work.

Heasters meant for lizard tanks stick on the the underside of tanks and
look a bit like tape. Maybe you could stick one of them (about $20)
on a piece of glass and put the bowls on them. Of course you'll have wasted
heat but unless you heat them individualy this is inevitable.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 16th 06, 07:33 PM

In article >,
Gail Futoran > wrote:
>"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>[snip]
>> If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
>> slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>> concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room).
>
>Reading other posts, it seems many people don't
>have basements! If I had one, it would become
>a family/play room, hence would be a perfect
>location for a fish wall. Here in TX, basements
>are a rarity.

A jackhammer and a few day laborours changes that. The house I live
in was built in 1860 or something, by an English Colonel. He'd never
heard of a basemnt either, that or the solid rock it's built on
deterred him somewhat.

From an engineering perspective, thisis not insurmountable, but
it's not conventional in the way you can, say, walk into a bank
and get a loan to build a miniature Marineland of the Pacific in
your basement that doesn't exist. Yet.

What you could do though is cut a great whacking hole in the floor
and build a foundation on the ground, which is typically giong to
be 2-3 feet lower than the gorund floor.

Now, if you make this bugger big enough the thermal mass becomes
an intersting property.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-lo

January 16th 06, 10:29 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> Heasters meant for lizard tanks stick on the the underside of tanks and
> look a bit like tape. Maybe you could stick one of them (about $20)
> on a piece of glass and put the bowls on them. Of course you'll have
> wasted
> heat but unless you heat them individualy this is inevitable.
=======================
Thanks. I'll check them out the next time I go to the big aquarium store
that carries lizards. :-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 16th 06, 10:32 PM

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>> You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some
>> kind of heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know,
>> like a heat tape that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with
>> the bowls sitting on them. I'll be your first customer.
>
> Have you looked at the heating mats for starting seeds in flats? They
> sit under the flat and the temperature should be in the 75-85 degree
> range.
========================
Hey, thanks! I never thought of them although I've seen mention of them in
gardening books. In fact I've never even seen one! :-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Ross T.

January 17th 06, 12:31 AM

Or you could get out the dynamite and build a fish grotto,using the
natural stone as a backdrop.... ;o)

Ross T

fish lover

January 17th 06, 01:39 AM

>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>
>If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
>purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
>the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
>difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
>cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
>maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
>changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
>are noise and water cooling (when needed).
>
>If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
>slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also
>more money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex
>features available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going
>more mainstream etc)
>
>If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
>continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
>have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
>where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>
>The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
>basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
>living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).
>
>1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
>cost (lightweight and stackable)).
>2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
>house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
>things).
>3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
>fragile).
>4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
>floor).
>5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
>raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
>periodically.
>6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
>away).
>7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
>placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
>simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
>through filter return lines).
>8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
>9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
>natural (and interesting).
>
>Problems
>1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat.
>I'm assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond
>folks always feeding from a top view.
>
>2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
>etc).
>This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
>upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
>would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much
>of it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing
>driftwood into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the
>mould). Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small
>monitor. This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though
>I've worked on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to
>see what I'd done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor
>would also address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the
>action).
>
>Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
>circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
>application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
>big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
>400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
>interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
>tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>
>could be very kewl :o)

I actually saw the picture of one guy did more than this, not the TV
part. He dug out his basement and put in a solid base, then put up to
9 feet high glass all around for a huge tank. He had to use steel
beams to strength the glass. It is the size of a not so small pool! He
was still trying to cycle the tank at the time the pictures were taken
because the water was cloudy and there were no fish in there.

He installed pumps to change water and so on. I think it was really
good but not everyone has that kind of money. I wonder how much he has
to pay for fish to put in there. Too rich for my blood.

I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)

Rick

January 17th 06, 02:16 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>
> If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
> purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs), the
> space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and difficult to
> move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the cost and the
> space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the maintenance
> (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water changes). Does
> that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints are noise and water
> cooling (when needed).
>
> If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums are
> slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
> concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room). Also more
> money is being spent on them, and there are many more complex features
> available (lighting, filtration, CO2, aquatic gardening going more
> mainstream etc)
>
> If a solution to the constraints existed, then the natural trend would
> continue towards having larger & more complex aquariums, and I think I
> have a solution :o). I got the idea from a friend's home theatre system,
> where one entire wall of the room was dedicated to the TV projection.
>
> The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
> basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the living
> room (controlling x, y, z and focus).
>
> 1. Cost goes down (no glass, no manufacturing assembly, reduced shipping
> cost (lightweight and stackable)).
> 2. Space is less critical, physically located in low-use area of the
> house, 'beamed' to living room wall (also frees space upstairs for other
> things).
> 3. Moving is relatively easy, drain and throw in the back of a van (not
> fragile).
> 4. Weight is a non-issue (no floor reinforcement needed on concrete
> floor).
> 5. Algae maintenance? (no glass to clean algae off of, camera could be
> raised from water when not in use). Perhaps wipe the lens cover
> periodically.
> 6. Filter maintenance (simplified as components do not need to be hidden
> away).
> 7. Water changes (with external pumps/filters and less restriction on the
> placement of supply/drain piping, water changes could be greatly
> simplified, draining from below the gravel (gravel-vacuum) and refilling
> through filter return lines).
> 8. Operation (filter/fan noise non-issue, cooling should be non-issue)
> 9. A bonus would be that the observed fish behaviour would be much more
> natural (and interesting).
>
> Problems
> 1) Feeding, unlike pond owners, aquarists like to watch the fish eat. I'm
> assuming this will be an acceptable adaptation, evidenced by pond folks
> always feeding from a top view.
>
> 2) Other tank maintenance (trimming plants, arranging rocks, driftwood
> etc).
> This is potentially the biggest constraint. I wouldn't want to hang
> upside down in the middle of a tub to re-arrange the stuff inside. This
> would be partly addressed by the tub being moulded into shapes, so much of
> it would not be movable (tiers for planting, plugs for pushing driftwood
> into, caves, rockwork etc might even be incorporated into the mould).
> Another method would be to have a camera feed locally to a small monitor.
> This would be acceptable, though a bit of a nuisance (though I've worked
> on large tanks where I had to get out whenever I wanted to see what I'd
> done, so a monitor would've been handy to have). A monitor would also
> address the feeding issue (providing a side view on the action).
>
> Please note that I'm not selling this concept. I'm just putting
> circumstances and emerging technology together in a particular
> application. This will never replace the small counter tanks, only the
> big 55g+ community tanks in our living rooms (which could now become
> 400-500g circular pre-moulded tubs). If nothing else, it would be
> interesting to put 2 or 3 cameras in there, and have the inside of your
> tub-aquarium projected on to 2 or 3 walls simultaneously.
>
> could be very kewl :o)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

Or you could put an aquarium screen saver on your computer, connect to your
big screen, and watch. No maintenance feeding or anything else.
Most of what I enjoy is the up close interaction with my "pets". Feeding
time is great, they wag their tails (I tell myself) and get all excited to
see me. Up close and personal.

NetMax

January 17th 06, 02:29 AM

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You would have to have collision detection for the camera's motion
> controller. So, there is added cost. I don't know how you could do such
> a thing. I think infared would be out (fish are cold blooded). I
> suppose you could use ultrasonics.... Hey you wouldn't want to squash a
> fish would you?!?

The camera(s) would move very slowly (unless you get the optional camera
which snaps on the motorized toy shark ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> I don't have a basement either. SOOoooo, can't we just have a virtual
> aquarium? They sell SVGA projectors for your computer. Would that work?
> Space and maintenance wouldn't be an issue. Initial cost would be about
> the same, I should think. You could water cool your processor if you
> wanted the "trickle" sound. No?

NetMax

January 17th 06, 02:48 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>>
<snip>
>
> The drawbacks to this, as I see it, are:-
>
> 1. I don't have a basement

Apparently many others don't as well. It must be a northern thing. Most
houses have basements here.

> 2. What material would the tub be made of? If not glass or acrylic then
> what are the impacts on any plants not getting sufficient light?

They are available now. They are sold as pond liners, but many are
self-supporting and do not need to be in the ground. It's a black
plastic. All the lighting needs would need to be from overhead.

> 3. The choice then becomes one of watching TV or movies or watching the
> fish. In this house I'm sure that I'd be over-ruled and the TV would be
> on rather than the tank. OK, you could set up a separate system to
> watch the fish but that would take up as much space, and almost
> certainly cost more, than having the tank in the first place.

Games, TV, aquarium, you have multiple walls ;~). This would be when
projectors were the cost of a good gaming station. I originally had this
idea when fibre optic cables were invented. My idea was to connect one
end of a fibre bundle to a buoy, and the other end to the submarine
(which would drag the buoy behind it). I had thought it might be
possible to project an outside view to a wall in the sub, reducing the
psychological stress of close quarters and having a real-time
practicality of above-water visibility.

> 4. We have a house rule, no tank where there is TV - OK I confess I
> snuck in the 7.5gall Hex but it's not allowed to be anywhere in the
> line of vision - apparently the lights would detract from the screen.

LOL, but a virtual view could be turned off without bothering the fish.
Also the sound of home theatre would not bother them as it potentially
does now. Pros/cons to everything.

> 5. We also have a house rule, no TV where there is a "large" fish tank,
> as this would detract from watching the fish. The Malawi tank lives in
> the "office area" and the Community tank I'm about to upgrade lives in
> the Conservatory....no TVs in either of these rooms.
>
> 6. Part of the fun, I find, is sitting watching the tank or walking
> past one of the tanks and then spotting something happening. Wouldn't
> work if I was monitoring just certain areas with a camera. So, lots of
> interesting behaviour would be missed IMO.

Potentially, you could see much more with cameras than you could from
your current vantage point. All depends on the setup. For example, have
camera pointing at each other, installed into the sides (disguised under
silk plants). No blind spots. I'm just being devil's advocate in my
position though.

> I think what you are proposing is really a tropical pond which is a
> fine concept on it's own but couldn't be a replacement for our
> glass/acrylic tanks....
>
> BTW If you could come up with something to automatically clean algae
> off of the glass I'm sure that that would catch on much quicker - lol

But I'm not trying to sell anything *sigh*. It was just an idea.

Design a UV lamp in the shape of a long thin glass fibre, and install it
under the cosmetic black plastic trim which sits on top of your
aquarium's glass sides. Strobe the UV. It should radiate down the pane.
That might do it.

> Gill

--
www.NetMax.tk

NetMax

January 17th 06, 03:13 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium: <big snip>

I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their opinions. The responses
were a bit more visceral than I had anticipated, but I wasn't looking for
long intellectual debate on the technical aspects either. Many of you
don't have basements, but this might be a Red Herring (if you'll excuse
the pun), as the ability to have a large tank in a more remote location,
away from the prime recreation area, remains unchanged.

I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker. We
walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it (move a
rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull some dead
leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are doing etc
etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to tinker.

For that I don't like it either, though I suspect most fish would prefer
it. Generally speaking, messing in a tank too often is a bad thing.
Shadows and sudden movements can also be disconcerting. Most fish tend
to like nice quiet corners for a community setting. It's a good thing
they don't have a vote ;~), and besides, who knows what the future will
bring?
--
www.NetMax.tk

Curt

January 17th 06, 05:12 AM

Curt

January 17th 06, 05:22 AM

What kinda stupid message is this? Did you write this tripe out of
boredom or you are a little off center? Nothing is ever going to change
as you predict. People will always have "normal" home aquariums. Yes
there are some people that go to extremes but the normal owner will
realize their litiations and have "normal" setups. Next time save your
predictions and do something more productive and constructive.......

Flash Wilson

January 17th 06, 12:56 PM

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:22:45 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>If we start by examining the constraints, I think the 4 biggest are the
>purchase cost (people don't complain so much about the running costs),
>the space (large footprint in prime real-estate in the house, and
>difficult to move), the weight (we want bigger aquariums except for the
>cost and the space it takes and eventually moving it), and finally the
>maintenance (primarily cleaning algae off the front glass and water
>changes). Does that sum it up adequately? Other possible constraints
>are noise and water cooling (when needed).

That's an excellent summary!

>The aquarium becomes a large moulded tub sitting in a corner of the
>basement, with an underwater camera controlled by joystick from the
>living room (controlling x, y, z and focus).

Ah. Now you're assuming I have a basement. Which in this house, I don't.

Also, what would be the effect of all this damp air in the basement,
would it not rot the foundations of the house? When I did live in
a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
when I moved house 4 years later.

Also, it was where our electricity bulk head was. I really can't see
the Electric Co being happy with the safety implications of so much
water next to the mains supply.

And how would I get the water there? I'd have to lower it down the
rickety wooden steps, but the only way I can get up and down them
when my hands are *empty* is by sitting on my behind and bumping down.

And if I did have a basement which wasn't all ratty and crumbly
it would be a server room... the computers have about as much "real
estate" in my house as the fish... :)

The idea would be ok in new builds I guess, but I only like to live
in a house over 100 years old. The one time I was in a new build
the walls were too thin and the rooms were very functionally designed
but far too small.

Neat idea... but I can't be sure it would work. What about a shed
with the tank in it? So people could buy it as an add on without
*too* much building work?

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Flash Wilson

January 17th 06, 12:57 PM

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:40:59 -0600, Koi-lo > wrote:
>You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some kind of
>heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like a heat tape
>that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the bowls sitting on
>them. I'll be your first customer.

You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Richard Sexton

January 17th 06, 04:52 PM

In article . com>,
Curt > wrote:
>What kinda stupid message is this? Did you write this tripe out of
>boredom or you are a little off center? Nothing is ever going to change
>as you predict. People will always have "normal" home aquariums. Yes
>there are some people that go to extremes but the normal owner will
>realize their litiations and have "normal" setups. Next time save your
>predictions and do something more productive and constructive.......

It's always 4:19 somewhere isn't it?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 04:57 PM

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:40:59 -0600, Koi-lo >
> wrote:
>>You have too much time on your hands. ;-) How about inventing some kind
>>of
>>heater for betta bowls to sit on and be heated? You know, like a heat
>>tape
>>that runs along the window sill, table or shelf with the bowls sitting on
>>them. I'll be your first customer.
>
> You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...
=============================
Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's no
way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also, the
wires would be ugly and in the way.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Richard Sexton

January 17th 06, 05:02 PM

>> You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...
>=============================
>Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
>something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's no
>way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also, the
>wires would be ugly and in the way.

What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 05:09 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...
>>=============================
>>Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
>>something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's
>>no
>>way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also, the
>>wires would be ugly and in the way.
>
> What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
> unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
=======================
Nah, someone needs to invent a heat TAPE for those with bowls or tanks in a
row. The reptile folks would probably buy it as well as the fish people. I
could be sold in several lengths to suit different needs.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Larry Blanchard

January 17th 06, 05:17 PM

Flash Wilson wrote:

> When I did live in
> a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
> cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
> a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
> when I moved house 4 years later.

That's not a basement, that's a cellar!

--
It's turtles, all the way down

NetMax

January 17th 06, 06:38 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Gail Futoran > wrote:
>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>>>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>>[snip]
>>> If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums
>>> are
>>> slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>>> concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room).
>>
>>Reading other posts, it seems many people don't
>>have basements! If I had one, it would become
>>a family/play room, hence would be a perfect
>>location for a fish wall. Here in TX, basements
>>are a rarity.
>
> A jackhammer and a few day laborours changes that. The house I live
> in was built in 1860 or something, by an English Colonel. He'd never
> heard of a basemnt either, that or the solid rock it's built on
> deterred him somewhat.
>
> From an engineering perspective, thisis not insurmountable, but
> it's not conventional in the way you can, say, walk into a bank
> and get a loan to build a miniature Marineland of the Pacific in
> your basement that doesn't exist. Yet.
>
> What you could do though is cut a great whacking hole in the floor
> and build a foundation on the ground, which is typically giong to
> be 2-3 feet lower than the gorund floor.
>
> Now, if you make this bugger big enough the thermal mass becomes
> an intersting property.

At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what volume
of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a home to an
average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude (Canada), I don't think
it's practical, but a bit further south might have possibilities. Build a
road to the edge of a short steep rockface (coastline, riverfront etc),
build a foundation to hold some water (200,000g?), grade with enough earth
for insulating the exposed side, add house on top. You would need some
energy to run the heat pumps, but rockface/coastlines are sometimes suitable
for a combination of wind power and solar (divided between electricity
generation for batteries and water heating to supplement the thermal energy
of the under-house sump.

An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be chemically
treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate a complete
nitrogen cycle (fishies :o). I don't know which would be more practical,
but I know which I would investigate first ;~), though I suspect the
temperature range would not be compatibility to fish.

lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
harmless ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 07:01 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
> wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
> harmless ;~).
========================
LOL! :-D I was starting to wonder. Since you're as much a fish-addict as
I am, how come you don't have at least one pond?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 07:03 PM

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> Flash Wilson wrote:
>
>> When I did live in
>> a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
>> cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
>> a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
>> when I moved house 4 years later.
>
> That's not a basement, that's a cellar!
================================
It's sounds more like a crumbling dungeon. :-(
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

January 17th 06, 07:06 PM

NetMax wrote:
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
>>Gail Futoran > wrote:
>>
>>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums
>>>>are
>>>>slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>>>>concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room).
>>>
>>>Reading other posts, it seems many people don't
>>>have basements! If I had one, it would become
>>>a family/play room, hence would be a perfect
>>>location for a fish wall. Here in TX, basements
>>>are a rarity.
>>
>>A jackhammer and a few day laborours changes that. The house I live
>>in was built in 1860 or something, by an English Colonel. He'd never
>>heard of a basemnt either, that or the solid rock it's built on
>>deterred him somewhat.
>>
>>From an engineering perspective, thisis not insurmountable, but
>>it's not conventional in the way you can, say, walk into a bank
>>and get a loan to build a miniature Marineland of the Pacific in
>>your basement that doesn't exist. Yet.
>>
>>What you could do though is cut a great whacking hole in the floor
>>and build a foundation on the ground, which is typically giong to
>>be 2-3 feet lower than the gorund floor.
>>
>>Now, if you make this bugger big enough the thermal mass becomes
>>an intersting property.
>
>
> At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what volume
> of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a home to an
> average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude (Canada), I don't think
> it's practical, but a bit further south might have possibilities. Build a
> road to the edge of a short steep rockface (coastline, riverfront etc),
> build a foundation to hold some water (200,000g?), grade with enough earth
> for insulating the exposed side, add house on top. You would need some
> energy to run the heat pumps, but rockface/coastlines are sometimes suitable
> for a combination of wind power and solar (divided between electricity
> generation for batteries and water heating to supplement the thermal energy
> of the under-house sump.
>
> An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be chemically
> treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate a complete
> nitrogen cycle (fishies :o). I don't know which would be more practical,
> but I know which I would investigate first ;~), though I suspect the
> temperature range would not be compatibility to fish.
>
> lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
> wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
> harmless ;~).

Think that it might have been done before...and then adapted to pump the
hot water around the home and lost the reservoir and just takes water in
when necessary...works great in my house <g>

Gill

Gill Passman

January 17th 06, 07:34 PM

NetMax wrote:
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
>>Gail Futoran > wrote:
>>
>>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums
>>>>are
>>>>slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
>>>>concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room).
>>>
>>>Reading other posts, it seems many people don't
>>>have basements! If I had one, it would become
>>>a family/play room, hence would be a perfect
>>>location for a fish wall. Here in TX, basements
>>>are a rarity.
>>
>>A jackhammer and a few day laborours changes that. The house I live
>>in was built in 1860 or something, by an English Colonel. He'd never
>>heard of a basemnt either, that or the solid rock it's built on
>>deterred him somewhat.
>>
>>From an engineering perspective, thisis not insurmountable, but
>>it's not conventional in the way you can, say, walk into a bank
>>and get a loan to build a miniature Marineland of the Pacific in
>>your basement that doesn't exist. Yet.
>>
>>What you could do though is cut a great whacking hole in the floor
>>and build a foundation on the ground, which is typically giong to
>>be 2-3 feet lower than the gorund floor.
>>
>>Now, if you make this bugger big enough the thermal mass becomes
>>an intersting property.
>
>
> At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what volume
> of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a home to an
> average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude (Canada), I don't think
> it's practical, but a bit further south might have possibilities. Build a
> road to the edge of a short steep rockface (coastline, riverfront etc),
> build a foundation to hold some water (200,000g?), grade with enough earth
> for insulating the exposed side, add house on top. You would need some
> energy to run the heat pumps, but rockface/coastlines are sometimes suitable
> for a combination of wind power and solar (divided between electricity
> generation for batteries and water heating to supplement the thermal energy
> of the under-house sump.
>
> An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be chemically
> treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate a complete
> nitrogen cycle (fishies :o). I don't know which would be more practical,
> but I know which I would investigate first ;~), though I suspect the
> temperature range would not be compatibility to fish.
>
> lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
> wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
> harmless ;~).

LOL - you bonkers - never.... :-) and as for harmless!!!! I still have a
feeling that the 4 footer will get filled with Neons in its next
incarnation which is a thought firmly planted in my head by you <g>

"generally helpful" - most certainly and always appreciated.... :-)

Gill

NetMax

January 17th 06, 07:39 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
>> wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
>> harmless ;~).
> ========================
> LOL! :-D I was starting to wonder. Since you're as much a fish-addict
> as I am, how come you don't have at least one pond?

Oh, I would if I could, but I can't. My house is built into the side of a
hill, so the only flat ground I have is weeping tiles on one side (septic
tank), and the bottom of my creek on the other. I've thought of building a
weir into the creek, to make a pond, but during snowmelt, the creek gets
very active, and it would flush all the fish into the river :-(.
Fortunately I have a few friends with ponds, so I can live vicariously
through them. One in particular has a 20,000g pond in their small backyard,
and they annually construct a tent the size of a small house to cover it for
the winter. The 'tent' has always been a different design (polyethylene
sheet and grey PVC piping this year), testing against the elements (snow
load, wind and freezing rain), so they haven't settled on a permanent design
yet. They write articles for fish magazines, so they get stuff to test and
often keep (good gig). To them, I'm not a fish-addict, I'm quite normal
;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

David Zopf

January 17th 06, 07:46 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>> You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...
>>>=============================
>>>Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
>>>something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's
>>>no
>>>way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also,
>>>the
>>>wires would be ugly and in the way.
>>
>> What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
>> unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
> =======================
> Nah, someone needs to invent a heat TAPE for those with bowls or tanks in
> a row. The reptile folks would probably buy it as well as the fish
> people. I could be sold in several lengths to suit different needs.

Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever
make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
temperature in a limited range.

In the chemical industry, they have big, wide heat tapes which can be put
onto drums;
http://www.bascousa.com/store/item.aspx?DEPARTMENT_ID=42&ITEM_ID=128

which are rarely good for anything. They heat indiscriminately, cause a
very hot point to develop where they are in contact with the drum, and lack
any means of circulating the material while heating (convection currents are
notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium). Your betta bowls will
behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable
hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a
tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata. You thought temperature
swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

David Zopf

January 17th 06, 07:54 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what
> volume of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a home to
> an average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude (Canada), I don't
> think it's practical, but a bit further south might have possibilities.
> Build a road to the edge of a short steep rockface (coastline, riverfront
> etc), build a foundation to hold some water (200,000g?), grade with enough
> earth for insulating the exposed side, add house on top. You would need
> some energy to run the heat pumps, but rockface/coastlines are sometimes
> suitable for a combination of wind power and solar (divided between
> electricity generation for batteries and water heating to supplement the
> thermal energy of the under-house sump.
>
> An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be chemically
> treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate a complete
> nitrogen cycle (fishies :o).
Meh. Just coat the wetted parts with teflon, or make them out of
titanium...

> I don't know which would be more practical, but I know which I would
> investigate first ;~), though I suspect the temperature range would not be
> compatibility to fish.
>
> lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
> wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
> harmless ;~).
> --

Wonkers? The only thing you're missing is financial backing;

http://www.makai.com/renewable_energy/swac.htm

It seems someone was Wonkers about six years ahead of you...

Seawater AC project has earned a $1.6million grant for a feasability study
at the University of Hawaii. Note; this is a _lot_ easier model, as the
water doesn't need to be pumped nearly so far (nor do you need to drill deep
into bedrock, etc).

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

Elaine T

January 17th 06, 08:39 PM

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...
>>
>>=============================
>>Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
>>something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's no
>>way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also, the
>>wires would be ugly and in the way.
>
>
> What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
> unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
>
ROFLMAO! By the way, it's good to have you around again, Richard.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

January 17th 06, 08:54 PM

fish lover wrote:

<snip>

> I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
> of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
> depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
> in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
> the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
> sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
> money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)

Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot deep
tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape algae and
clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet wide.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

January 17th 06, 09:22 PM

NetMax wrote:

<snip>

> I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker. We
> walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it (move a
> rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull some dead
> leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are doing etc
> etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the dogs
so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of how
popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

January 17th 06, 09:26 PM

Curt wrote:
> What kinda stupid message is this? Did you write this tripe out of
> boredom or you are a little off center? Nothing is ever going to change
> as you predict. People will always have "normal" home aquariums. Yes
> there are some people that go to extremes but the normal owner will
> realize their litiations and have "normal" setups. Next time save your
> predictions and do something more productive and constructive.......
>

Why don't you post something productive and constructive yourself
instead of flaming one of our most active members? I've never seen you
post, and you obviously don't even lurk much.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

NetMax

January 17th 06, 11:03 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
t...
> fish lover wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
>> of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
>> depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
>> in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
>> the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
>> sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
>> money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)
>
> Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot deep
> tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape algae
> and clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet wide.

Oh oh oh, I know the answer :o) (push over fishlover ;~), at least I have
an idea for it. There is an indent in the bottom of the
tub/mold/tank/container. Ordinarily, nothing is in there, but it could
be large enough to have a potted plant or some type of structure with
caves. When you have to do serious maintenance, you remove anything
which is in this indent (or false bottom), and drop the water level
(taking all the fish with it into this section).

The drawbacks are that live plants on the upper levels would be exposed
to air (so they would have to be robust or don't have live plants in the
upper tiers), and you need a sizable holding tank to hold the displaced
water until it is returned. In fish rooms, I've seen these holding tanks
attached to the ceiling. For other installations, (large built-in
aquariums), the holding tank could be located in another room (preferably
directly above or below the main tank).

Alternately, use the holding tank, but no indent in the main tank and
never take the water down too low.

sorry fishlover, my enthusiasm curbs poorly, your turn.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 11:18 PM

"David Zopf" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
> be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
> freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
> enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
> out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll
> ever make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume
> water temperature in a limited range.

The ON or OFF thing did cross my mind. That would be unlike the old
fluorescent strip lights on 12 hours a day. The temp did drop at night as
in nature but was on all day - not on and off, on and off.

>
> In the chemical industry, they have big, wide heat tapes which can be put
> onto drums;
> http://www.bascousa.com/store/item.aspx?DEPARTMENT_ID=42&ITEM_ID=128

I'm picturing a teeny tiny one wrapped around a betta bowl. ;-) That's
not practical though.

> which are rarely good for anything. They heat indiscriminately, cause a
> very hot point to develop where they are in contact with the drum, and
> lack any means of circulating the material while heating (convection
> currents are notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium). Your
> betta bowls will behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll
> have a uninhabitable hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp
> matter will be residing), a tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper
> strata. You thought temperature swings are bad when they occur too
> quickly..? Three guesses as to what happens when you have eight or more
> degrees of temperature change _within the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

That shoots that idea down the toilet........... LOL!
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 11:24 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, I would if I could, but I can't. My house is built into the side of a
> hill, so the only flat ground I have is weeping tiles on one side (septic
> tank), and the bottom of my creek on the other. I've thought of building
> a weir into the creek, to make a pond, but during snowmelt, the creek gets
> very active, and it would flush all the fish into the river :-(.

What a bummer! I'd love to put another pond in but there are difficulties
like solid rock close under the surface, the septic tank drain field, ....
my husband. ;-)

> Fortunately I have a few friends with ponds, so I can live vicariously
> through them. One in particular has a 20,000g pond in their small
> backyard, and they annually construct a tent the size of a small house to
> cover it for the winter. The 'tent' has always been a different design
> (polyethylene sheet and grey PVC piping this year), testing against the
> elements (snow load, wind and freezing rain), so they haven't settled on a
> permanent design yet. They write articles for fish magazines, so they get
> stuff to test and often keep (good gig).

What a deal!!!!

> To them, I'm not a fish-addict, I'm quite normal

Yes, being fish-addicts "is normal" for people like us......... :-)))
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

January 17th 06, 11:28 PM

"David Zopf" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>>> You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet
>>>>> shops...
>>>>=============================
>>>>Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
>>>>something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill.
>>>>There's no
>>>>way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one.
>>>>Also, the
>>>>wires would be ugly and in the way.
>>>
>>> What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source
>>> geothermal
>>> unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
>> =======================
>> Nah, someone needs to invent a heat TAPE for those with bowls or tanks
>> in a row. The reptile folks would probably buy it as well as the fish
>> people. I could be sold in several lengths to suit different needs.
>
> Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it
> will be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes
> from freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control
> accurately enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either
> on and pumping out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I
> don't think they'll ever make a good basis as an affordable means of
> maintaining small volume water temperature in a limited range.
>
> In the chemical industry, they have big, wide heat tapes which can be
> put onto drums;
> http://www.bascousa.com/store/item.aspx?DEPARTMENT_ID=42&ITEM_ID=128
>
> which are rarely good for anything. They heat indiscriminately, cause
> a very hot point to develop where they are in contact with the drum,
> and lack any means of circulating the material while heating
> (convection currents are notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid
> medium). Your betta bowls will behave similarly; without water
> flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable hot bottom (note: also
> where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a tropical middle,
> and a vastly cooler upper strata. You thought temperature swings are
> bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what happens
> when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within the 2
> gallon bowl itself_... :-)
>
> DaveZ
> Atom Weaver

I don't think there would be any particular challenges to creating a low
wattage heating element for a bowl. It's just wire with some resistance.
It could even be moulded right into the base of the bowl with a
connector, and designed to run off of a DC transformer. The challenge is
the thermostat, it's design and location. You want to measure the water
temperature at an approximate mid-point without applied heat skewing the
results.

Having the thermostat moulded into the thick glass of one side of a bowl
would be an option (the glass would be an average of the ambient and the
water layers.

Alternately you could have a connector for a thermistor (thermocouple &
infra-red too expensive, mechanical contacts too primitive) on a cable,
and the thermistor would drop inside the tank. In that case, it becomes
a bowl 'hotplate'.

Ok, so it isn't a big challenge, just need someone to put an application
patent on it ($5-10K depending on the number of countries), trademark it
(optional), pay the R&D ($40-50K), and sell it to Hagen. Personally, I
don't see the business case, as most bowl buyers are not flush with
money, or they would get something larger with a heater.

Frank has used heating tape on his tanks. Perhaps the simplest approach
would be to connect the heating tape in a manner that scales the total
BTUs down to 'fishbowl' level. I think power is inverse squared with
resistance, so two 8W tapes connected in series would be 2W (?) don't
quote me, it's just a possible direction to pursue.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-lo

January 17th 06, 11:37 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> For that I don't like it either, though I suspect most fish would prefer
> it.

And I think some, like my goldfish, actually enjoy it. When my hands are in
the tank they're right there looking for any bit of edible stuff I may turn
up messing with the plants or gravel.

> Generally speaking, messing in a tank too often is a bad thing.

Well there is a limit,.... several times a day can give you fingernail
fungus. :-(

> Shadows and sudden movements can also be disconcerting. Most fish tend to
> like nice quiet corners for a community setting.

Hummmm......... when I first put my bubble-eyes and lionheads in the tanks
near the hall they'd dash for cover when someone passed by. Now they dash
for the feeding corner when they see anyone coming or going down the hall
(passing their tanks). All that aside, I know there are fish that are shy
and nervous and wouldn't like such a location. Fish like those I would keep
off the beaten path through the house.

It's a good thing
> they don't have a vote ;~), and besides, who knows what the future will
> bring?

If my fish could vote I'm sure they'd vote to be near that small table with
their fish-food basket on it. All those packages of pellets, those yummy
algae wafers, those crisps, tasty freeze dried bloodworms, tubafex and
shrimp......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

January 18th 06, 12:06 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
t...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
>> We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
>> (move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
>> some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
>> doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
>> tinker.
>
> Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
> dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
> for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
> daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
> interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
> dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
> perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
> the same as having a pet dog at your feet.
>
> I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
> your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
> behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
> "wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
> he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
> how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!

I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.

For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
(inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
fish, imho.

This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
associated with larger tanks.

.... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Gill Passman

January 18th 06, 12:12 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> t...
>
>>fish lover wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
>>>of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
>>>depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
>>>in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
>>>the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
>>>sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
>>>money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)
>>
>>Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot deep
>>tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape algae
>>and clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet wide.
>
>
> Oh oh oh, I know the answer :o) (push over fishlover ;~), at least I have
> an idea for it. There is an indent in the bottom of the
> tub/mold/tank/container. Ordinarily, nothing is in there, but it could
> be large enough to have a potted plant or some type of structure with
> caves. When you have to do serious maintenance, you remove anything
> which is in this indent (or false bottom), and drop the water level
> (taking all the fish with it into this section).
>
> The drawbacks are that live plants on the upper levels would be exposed
> to air (so they would have to be robust or don't have live plants in the
> upper tiers), and you need a sizable holding tank to hold the displaced
> water until it is returned. In fish rooms, I've seen these holding tanks
> attached to the ceiling. For other installations, (large built-in
> aquariums), the holding tank could be located in another room (preferably
> directly above or below the main tank).
>
> Alternately, use the holding tank, but no indent in the main tank and
> never take the water down too low.
>
> sorry fishlover, my enthusiasm curbs poorly, your turn.

I rather think that you have spent a lot of time thinking on this...and
great on you <g>. What is this all about other than throwing out ideas
and getting feedback? Well I guess some of it is about helping people
out...but it is the idea thing that makes these ng great....making
people think over and above the norm is a good thing whatever the topic IMO

Big fan <embarassed grin>

Gill

NetMax

January 18th 06, 12:18 AM

"David Zopf" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what
>> volume of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a
>> home to an average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude
>> (Canada), I don't think it's practical, but a bit further south might
>> have possibilities. Build a road to the edge of a short steep rockface
>> (coastline, riverfront etc), build a foundation to hold some water
>> (200,000g?), grade with enough earth for insulating the exposed side,
>> add house on top. You would need some energy to run the heat pumps,
>> but rockface/coastlines are sometimes suitable for a combination of
>> wind power and solar (divided between electricity generation for
>> batteries and water heating to supplement the thermal energy of the
>> under-house sump.
>>
>> An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be
>> chemically treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate
>> a complete nitrogen cycle (fishies :o).
> Meh. Just coat the wetted parts with teflon, or make them out of
> titanium...
>
>> I don't know which would be more practical, but I know which I would
>> investigate first ;~), though I suspect the temperature range would
>> not be compatibility to fish.
>>
>> lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being
>> completely wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally
>> helpful & harmless ;~).
>> --
>
> Wonkers? The only thing you're missing is financial backing;
>
> http://www.makai.com/renewable_energy/swac.htm
>
> It seems someone was Wonkers about six years ahead of you...
>
> Seawater AC project has earned a $1.6million grant for a feasability
> study at the University of Hawaii. Note; this is a _lot_ easier model,
> as the water doesn't need to be pumped nearly so far (nor do you need
> to drill deep into bedrock, etc).
>
> Regards
> DaveZ
> Atom Weaver

Nice link, thanks! Inventing is just a job, and it's not particularly
difficult for inventors to invent (but try getting them to stop ;~). I
have brakes on my in-line skates. Would I patent them? Not a chance,
nor a dozen other ideas sitting on my scale of the ridiculous to the
sublime. But it's fun thinking them up, especially the aquaria-related
ones, as those I can actually do for myself.
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

Gill Passman

January 18th 06, 12:57 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> t...
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
>>>We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
>>>(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
>>>some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
>>>doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
>>>tinker.
>>
>>Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
>>dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
>>for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
>>daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
>>interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
>>dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
>>perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
>>the same as having a pet dog at your feet.
>>
>>I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
>>your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
>>behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
>>"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
>>he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
>>how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!
>
>
> I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
> there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
> for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
> Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
> wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
> they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
> hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.
>
> For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
> tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
> days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
> they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
> either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
> else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
> through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
> cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
> and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
> (inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
> Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
> the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
> into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
> background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
> the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
> entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
> people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
> repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
> to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
> best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
> fish, imho.
>
> This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
> to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
> every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
> replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
> a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
> associated with larger tanks.
>
> ... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)

To save you the effort it is cows stomach...in the past fed to dogs and
people of restricted means...it is a particularly nasy product, white
with lots of nodules, but high in nutritional value - I remember people
feeding it to their pets (fortunately not their kids although it did
happen and I'm sure that my parents will remember eating it from times
of rationing in the 2WW) - nowadays when hopefully the majority have
better nutrition so it means "rubbish" or "waste"...

My joy in this hobby as you quite rightly mention, does happen with some
people, is the pleasure in watching my fish and their interactions with
me and with themselves....a pretty tank, ornamental feature as a goal is
also very, very common...I see them as my pets, my tanks are very
transient as I try to achieve the perfect environment...never achievable
hence the constant fiddling and changes...but I would hazard a guess
that most people who bother enough to subscribe to newsgroups/forums do
the same...for all of us doing this there are thousands of people out
there who either know what to do or just think of tanks of fish as
something that looks great in their living room (and don't get me wrong
if the fish are healthy and well cared for there is nothing wrong with
this)...but if they die the attitude is "buy more" - not a difficult
concept in our consumer society....soapbox warning

Until fish are seen as more than decorations we will never get the
quality of service and livestock that we deserve. Futhermore, our pets,
the fish, will suffer from neglect and harm not only from their ultimate
owners but the retailers and wholesalers

Your idea is great and fantastic if it provides a virtual reality tank
for those that just want the concept and decorative value of
fish...maybe this is the market (and I do know you chastised me for
considering you were selling - a slight net problem - I didn't mean
commercially I meant the concept/idea). And if it moves us away from
people who see fish as mere designer objects with no care for their well
being, then I'm sorry, so much the better.

Now, maybe the "would be fish owners who can't be arsed to do the work"
would really be better off with their virtual tanks....can see a market
for this just as you describe...but someone still has to be in there
doing the work....if I'm doing the work I want to see the real thing not
something fed to me on a screen...

Climbing off the box and I know that you know it isn't personal and just
a "Gill rant" <g>

Gill

NetMax

January 18th 06, 03:42 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> t...
<snip>

> My joy in this hobby as you quite rightly mention, does happen with
> some people, is the pleasure in watching my fish and their interactions
> with me and with themselves....a pretty tank, ornamental feature as a
> goal is also very, very common...I see them as my pets, my tanks are
> very transient as I try to achieve the perfect environment...never
> achievable hence the constant fiddling and changes...but I would hazard
> a guess that most people who bother enough to subscribe to
> newsgroups/forums do the same...for all of us doing this there are
> thousands of people out there who either know what to do or just think
> of tanks of fish as something that looks great in their living room
> (and don't get me wrong if the fish are healthy and well cared for
> there is nothing wrong with this)...but if they die the attitude is
> "buy more" - not a difficult concept in our consumer society....soapbox
> warning
>
> Until fish are seen as more than decorations we will never get the
> quality of service and livestock that we deserve. Futhermore, our pets,
> the fish, will suffer from neglect and harm not only from their
> ultimate owners but the retailers and wholesalers

Elevating the respect level for our aquatic pets is definitely an
important goal for most parts of the world. Europe seems to have a
better grip on this.

> Your idea is great and fantastic if it provides a virtual reality tank
> for those that just want the concept and decorative value of
> fish...maybe this is the market (and I do know you chastised me for
> considering you were selling - a slight net problem - I didn't mean
> commercially I meant the concept/idea). And if it moves us away from
> people who see fish as mere designer objects with no care for their
> well being, then I'm sorry, so much the better.

Sorry on the 'net' problem. I'm glad to see it rolled off. This 'future
scenario' was really just something that occured to me. Not really
thought out, just pondering on how our living room entertainment might
all converge in the future. It was floated here for 'brain-storming',
and I wouldn't take insult if everyone found flaws in it. As a designer,
I'm accustomed to the majority of my ideas being bad, impractical or
otherwise unworkable. From an engineering perspective, this 'scenario'
offered some unconventional solutions for some conventional problems.

> Now, maybe the "would be fish owners who can't be arsed to do the work"
> would really be better off with their virtual tanks....can see a market
> for this just as you describe...but someone still has to be in there
> doing the work....if I'm doing the work I want to see the real thing
> not something fed to me on a screen...

The already exists non-commercial web cam broadcasts of the inside of
aquariums. While this angle was also in my head peripherally, I didn't
include it, as we are primarily 'real' hobbyists here, not part-time
users who would have an aquarium projected on their wall when they have
company over. We are the people who actually have the tanks, so if I'm
not considering this from a commercial perspective (which I'm not), then
the concept's merits should be judged by real hobbyists. However, you do
bring up an interesting angle. If it was a commercial broadcast, then
places which cannot have a real aquarium (ie: airplane flights), or
places where aquarium care is a challenge (retirement homes, restaurents,
hospitals etc) might get some benefit. Another market is the people you
mentioned who have no interest in learning the proper care, and for them,
the broadcasts might save a few fish!
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Climbing off the box and I know that you know it isn't personal and
> just a "Gill rant" <g>
>
> Gill

Frank

January 18th 06, 03:54 AM

David Zopf wrote,
> Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
>be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
>freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
>enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
>out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever
>make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
>temperature in a limited range.

I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
to prevent metal pipes from freezing).

>(convection currents are
>notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).

I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!

>Your betta bowls will
>behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable
>hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a
>tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata.

Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.

>You thought temperature
>swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
>happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
>the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place of
the heaters heating element. This 'thermostat' is then placed into
eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all the
tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
and easy! ............... Frank

NetMax

January 18th 06, 04:14 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>
>>>fish lover wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
>>>>of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
>>>>depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
>>>>in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
>>>>the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
>>>>sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
>>>>money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)
>>>
>>>Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot
>>>deep tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape
>>>algae and clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet
>>>wide.
>>
>>
>> Oh oh oh, I know the answer :o) (push over fishlover ;~), at least I
>> have an idea for it. There is an indent in the bottom of the
>> tub/mold/tank/container. Ordinarily, nothing is in there, but it
>> could be large enough to have a potted plant or some type of structure
>> with caves. When you have to do serious maintenance, you remove
>> anything which is in this indent (or false bottom), and drop the water
>> level (taking all the fish with it into this section).
>>
>> The drawbacks are that live plants on the upper levels would be
>> exposed to air (so they would have to be robust or don't have live
>> plants in the upper tiers), and you need a sizable holding tank to
>> hold the displaced water until it is returned. In fish rooms, I've
>> seen these holding tanks attached to the ceiling. For other
>> installations, (large built-in aquariums), the holding tank could be
>> located in another room (preferably directly above or below the main
>> tank).
>>
>> Alternately, use the holding tank, but no indent in the main tank and
>> never take the water down too low.
>>
>> sorry fishlover, my enthusiasm curbs poorly, your turn.
>
> I rather think that you have spent a lot of time thinking on this...and
> great on you <g>. What is this all about other than throwing out ideas
> and getting feedback? Well I guess some of it is about helping people
> out...but it is the idea thing that makes these ng great....making
> people think over and above the norm is a good thing whatever the topic
> IMO
>
> Big fan <embarassed grin>
>
> Gill

Thanks for that Gill. I only thought about it long enough to recognize
some interesting possibilities, but I still wanted to throw it out there
for comment, and it did seem to generate some discussion ;~). I'm far
too nerdy, wordy and annoying to have a thin skin about negative
comments, so no worries :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-lo

January 18th 06, 05:36 AM

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> David Zopf wrote,
>> Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
>>be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
>>freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
>>enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
>>out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll
>>ever
>>make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
>>temperature in a limited range.
>
> I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
> in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
> to prevent metal pipes from freezing).

How,. since they don't usually turn on until it reaches something like 35 or
40 F.

>>(convection currents are
>>notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).

> I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
> of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!
>
>>Your betta bowls will
>>behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a
>>uninhabitable
>>hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing),
>>a
>>tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata.
>
> Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
> the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.

Makes sense.

>>You thought temperature
>>swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
>>happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
>>the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

> Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
> the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
> plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place of
> the heaters heating element.

Do you have pics of this on a website? I think I can picture this in my
mind. Still, knowing zero about wiring and electricity I would need to see
this to do it safely and correctly.

This 'thermostat' is then placed into
> eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
> jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all the
> tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
> aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
> and easy! ............... Frank

I'm going to mention this to my husband and see if we can come up with
something......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Flash Wilson

January 18th 06, 06:32 PM

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:17:41 -0800, Larry Blanchard > wrote:
>Flash Wilson wrote:
>
>> When I did live in
>> a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
>> cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
>> a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
>> when I moved house 4 years later.
>
>That's not a basement, that's a cellar!

Yes... it's the cellar and/or basement, traditionally lives
under the ground floor, you know... :)

In the same way that the attic can also be called a loft and
traditionally lives in the roof above the top floor?

Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
something else?

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Elaine T

January 18th 06, 06:57 PM

Frank wrote:
> David Zopf wrote,
>
>>Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
>>be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
>>freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
>>enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
>>out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever
>>make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
>>temperature in a limited range.
>
>
> I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
> in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
> to prevent metal pipes from freezing).
>
>
>>(convection currents are
>>notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).
>
>
> I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
> of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!
>
>
>>Your betta bowls will
>>behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable
>>hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a
>>tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata.
>
>
> Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
> the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.
>
>
>>You thought temperature
>>swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
>>happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
>>the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)
>
>
> Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
> the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
> plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place of
> the heaters heating element. This 'thermostat' is then placed into
> eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
> jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all the
> tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
> aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
> and easy! ............... Frank
>
Neat system. For the non-electronically inclined, if you have the betta
bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal aquarium heater
rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer heat to the bettas?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

January 18th 06, 07:22 PM

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> t...
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
>>>We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
>>>(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
>>>some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
>>>doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
>>>tinker.
>>
>>Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
>>dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
>>for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
>>daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
>>interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
>>dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
>>perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
>>the same as having a pet dog at your feet.
>>
>>I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
>>your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
>>behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
>>"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
>>he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
>>how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!
>
>
> I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
> there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
> for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
> Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
> wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
> they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
> hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.
>
> For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
> tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
> days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
> they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
> either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
> else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
> through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
> cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
> and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
> (inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
> Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
> the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
> into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
> background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
> the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
> entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
> people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
> repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
> to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
> best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
> fish, imho.
>
> This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
> to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
> every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
> replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
> a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
> associated with larger tanks.
>
> ... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)

You have a good point. However, I learned a long time ago to walk into
the room with a tank and sit quietly. Fish soon forget you're there.
I've seen all sorts of interesting behaviors doing this. Unfortunately,
sitting can be time consuming.

Maybe the thing to build would be a waterproof, remote controlled camera
designed for conventional aquaria. It could hook up to anything with a
video input. A fishkeeper could put the fish on TV or a projecter when
they want to see them without a person in the room, or walk over to the
conventional fishtank to interact with the fish.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

David Zopf

January 18th 06, 08:03 PM

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> David Zopf wrote,
>>(convection currents are
>>notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).
>
> I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
> of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!
>
Oops, I skipped this part in my prior response. After a re-read, I
realize I didn't clearly express what I wanted to. Howsabout this instead:

Convection currents are slow to achieve an _even_ distribution of heat in a
fluid medium. This is one reason why nearly every instance of the use of
point-source heating in aquaria is accompanied by mechanical water movement
to assist with heat distribution (in addition to other very valuable
functions of water movement). The way I wrote it the first time, you're
right, if you crank up a heater in one corner of a tank (no pumps, no
agitation of the water), and the whole tank will get hotter (true to your
statement). However, there will be significantly different temperatures in
different areas of the tank relative to the heat source.

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

Koi-lo

January 18th 06, 08:28 PM

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
> something else?
=================
They do where I live. A basement is a finished cellar more or less.
Finished in that it looks like the other rooms in the house with paneling or
painted/wallpapered wallboard on the walls. The floor is carpeted or has
linoleum or tiles. Pipes are boxed in. A cellar is an unfinished area
showing the bare foundation, ugly water pipes, concrete or dirt floor etc.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

January 18th 06, 08:38 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
et...
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
>>>>We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
>>>>(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something,
>>>>pull some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the
>>>>fry are doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your
>>>>ability to tinker.
>>>
>>>Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
>>>dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
>>>for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
>>>daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
>>>interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
>>>dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
>>>perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
>>>the same as having a pet dog at your feet.
>>>
>>>I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned
>>>feeding your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the
>>>natural behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing
>>>his little "wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into
>>>the room. All he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still
>>>fun. Think of how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like
>>>qualities!
>>
>>
>> I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups
>> and there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of
>> 'pets' for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into
>> 'hobby'. Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and
>> activity. I wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would
>> make no sense, they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would,
>> and many new hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.
>>
>> For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
>> tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
>> days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
>> they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
>> either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing
>> something else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups
>> 6-12, barrelled through other less-organised groups, then broke into
>> smaller formations, cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!),
>> established alpha status and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and
>> danced around each other (inter-species and not). The point is that
>> it was really fun to watch. Then a customer would walk over, and once
>> they were about 5-6 feet from the tank, all the animation would come
>> to a stop, and the fish would go into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg
>> for food or slowly drift into the background, and the customer would
>> coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to the fact that they were only
>> seeing a fraction of the potential entertainment value. This is what
>> many hobbyists see, their fish's people-mode (which with some fish is
>> frankly, predictable, dull & repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm
>> taking a devil's advocate position to this argument, so please don't
>> anyone else flame me). Some of the best enjoyment comes from
>> undetected observation, particularly 'hobby' fish, imho.
>>
>> This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many
>> reasons to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the
>> sci.name of every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish
>> he had, he replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote
>> tank might fill a market niche if only to address some of the existing
>> constraints associated with larger tanks.
>>
>> ... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)
>
> You have a good point. However, I learned a long time ago to walk into
> the room with a tank and sit quietly. Fish soon forget you're there.
> I've seen all sorts of interesting behaviors doing this.
> Unfortunately, sitting can be time consuming.
>
> Maybe the thing to build would be a waterproof, remote controlled
> camera designed for conventional aquaria. It could hook up to anything
> with a video input. A fishkeeper could put the fish on TV or a
> projecter when they want to see them without a person in the room, or
> walk over to the conventional fishtank to interact with the fish.
>
> --
> Elaine T __

Good idea. My ideal fishroom would be wall to ceiling, wall to wall
tanks in the den (den = finished basement, not root cellar ;~), so
projecting some to another room would be very interesting, especially if
the projection was of a quality that a casual observer would think it was
a built-in tank.

Incidentally, DAS already has my aquariums ready (4 foot tanks, stacked 3
high for 60g and two high for 100g, and the 60g are available in 4
configurations, twin 30g, triple 20g, single 60g or open plant tanks).
They are designed to fit wall to wall (with filler panels on the ends),
and come standard with drilled overflows for automated water change
systems. They are just waiting for me to show up with a cheque for
$150,000 ;~).

I wonder if I could buy them on a small business grant, incorporate,
write them off as capital losses and then quietly go bankrupt ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

NetMax

January 18th 06, 09:04 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
>> something else?
> =================
> They do where I live. A basement is a finished cellar more or less.
> Finished in that it looks like the other rooms in the house with
> paneling or painted/wallpapered wallboard on the walls. The floor is
> carpeted or has linoleum or tiles. Pipes are boxed in. A cellar is
> an unfinished area showing the bare foundation, ugly water pipes,
> concrete or dirt floor etc.
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Thanks Koi-Lo, that's about right. In Canada a typical new house is two
or three floors with the lower floor being the basement (often purchased
unfinished and left to the owner to decide how to arrange it, either in
bedrooms, bathrooms, rec room or den etc). Once finished, there is
little to distinguish a basement from any other level of a house except
that it's floor is on concrete (house foundation), its windows start
higher up (above the ground level), it is on or close to the same level
as the garage, and the main utilities enter there (ie: electrical panels
and laundry room are typically in the basement). Otherwise a basement
can have bedrooms, entertainment systems, studio, workshops, etc and my
fav. fishrooms :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Tedd Jacobs

January 18th 06, 09:37 PM

"Flash Wilson" wrote...
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:17:41 -0800, Larry Blanchard >
> wrote:
>>Flash Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> When I did live in
>>> a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
>>> cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
>>> a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
>>> when I moved house 4 years later.
>>
>>That's not a basement, that's a cellar!
>
> Yes... it's the cellar and/or basement, traditionally lives
> under the ground floor, you know... :)
>
> In the same way that the attic can also be called a loft and
> traditionally lives in the roof above the top floor?
>
> Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
> something else?

as is the beauty of our language, one word/term can have multiple varients
of definition and usage. for the most part, cellars are for storage and
basements are for habitation. both can exist under the main living area of
a habitable structure as a part of the foundation, but only cellars can also
be seperate from any other surface structure so long as they are still
underground. this can get more confusing in areas like the midwestern
united states where 'storm cellars' are commonplace and used for short term
habitation in the event of a storm, usually tornados. others would draw a
dividing line between basements and cellars by the ability to control the
internal environment, i.e. heating/cooling, electrical service, plumbing,
etc. just to keep things more interesting there is also the 'dug-out
cellar' with electric/heat/plumbing and the 'unfinished basement' with
nothing at all.

much the same with attic/loft, attic = storage, loft = habitable. of
course this is all from a US perspective, you guys over the big water seem
to have different words like 'lift', 'boot', and 'bobby' for 'elevator',
'trunk', and 'copper'. ;-)

btw, were you gone for a while? havent seen you around untill just these
past couple weeks. (or maybe that was just me being gone) ;-)

Larry Blanchard

January 18th 06, 10:00 PM

NetMax wrote:

> As*a*designer,
> I'm accustomed to the majority of my ideas being bad, impractical or
> otherwise unworkable.**From*an*engineering*perspective,*this
> 'scenario' offered some unconventional solutions for some conventional
> problems.

I did some computer consulting with a company that had "brainstorming"
sessions. They finally gave up because the employees were too worried
about throwing out bad ideas and looking bad. I couldn't have cared
less and several of my ideas turned out to be at least partly useful.

Of course I was also the guy who, when I made a particularly dumb
mistake (they're all dumb when you catch them) would take a listing
around and show to everyone so they wouldn't make the same dumb
mistake.

The funny thing is, I wound up with quite a good reputation :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry Blanchard

January 18th 06, 10:05 PM

Elaine T wrote:

> Neat system.**For*the*non-electronically*inclined,*if*you*have*the
> betta bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal aquarium
> heater rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer heat to
> the bettas?

That's not a bad idea. The bowls should be up off the tray bottom on
some kind of "stilts" so the water could flow under them. The
temperature in the bowls would probably be a little lower than the
temperature in the tray.

Now make the tray a long low (3"?) aquarium and let a bunch of white
clouds chase each other around the bowls :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry Blanchard

January 18th 06, 10:10 PM

Flash Wilson wrote:

> In the same way that the attic can also be called a loft and
> traditionally lives in the roof above the top floor?
>
> Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
> something else?

When I was growing up in the southeast US, a basement had a floor
(usually concrete) and windows, and often direct access to the outside,
usually the back yard, which you probably call the rear garden.

A cellar usually had a dirt floor, no windows, and the only access was
from inside. Sometimes a stair behind a door, sometimes a trapdoor
with stairs little better than a sloped ladder.

If you were on a farm, a cellar was actually better than a basement,
because fruits and vegetables would keep longer in it.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Frank

January 18th 06, 10:51 PM

Koi-lo wrote,
>How, since they don't usually turn on until it reaches something like 35 or 40F.

The heat tape's thermostat is *removed* from the heat tape, along with
it's plug. The two wires from the heat tape is then hooked to the
aquarium heater (where it's heating element used to be). The heat tape
becomes the aquarium heater's heat element - it's just no longer housed
within the heaters glass tube, but instead runs under what ever your
heating. Once the heating element is removed from the aquarium heater,
the aquarium heater becomes only a thermostat for the heat tape.

>Do you have pics of this on a website?

Wish I did. The trouble is, I bred and raised fish and was into pet
stores long before computers and websites. A few years back there was a
couple of guys in this news group that used to buy their supplys from
our pet shops, and had photos of the first shop - that was over 35
years ago.

>I'm going to mention this to my husband and see if we can come up with
>something......

If he has any questions, tell him to e-mail me,
- remove spam.............. Frank

Elaine T

January 18th 06, 11:02 PM

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>
>>Neat system. For the non-electronically inclined, if you have the
>>betta bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal aquarium
>>heater rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer heat to
>>the bettas?
>
>
> That's not a bad idea. The bowls should be up off the tray bottom on
> some kind of "stilts" so the water could flow under them. The
> temperature in the bowls would probably be a little lower than the
> temperature in the tray.
>
> Now make the tray a long low (3"?) aquarium and let a bunch of white
> clouds chase each other around the bowls :-).

Now that would be a neat setup! I wouldn't be able to resist putting
clumps of riccia or some java moss in there as well.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Frank

January 18th 06, 11:20 PM

Elaine T wrote,
>Neat system. For the non-electronically inclined, if you have the betta
>bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal aquarium heater
>rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer heat to the bettas?

Heat rises - much better to have an even heat across the whole bottom
than to *try* to force heat from a jar to the others through a half
inch of water that all the jars are sitting in............ Frank

Daniel Morrow

January 18th 06, 11:32 PM

Bottom posted.
Elaine T wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>> David Zopf wrote,
>>
>>> Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think
>>> it will be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal
>>> pipes from freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably)
>>> control accurately enough to prevent large temperature swings.
>>> They're either on and pumping out the BTU's, or their off and
>>> cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever make a good basis as
>>> an affordable means of maintaining small volume water temperature
>>> in a limited range.
>>
>>
>> I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
>> in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
>> to prevent metal pipes from freezing).
>>
>>
>>> (convection currents are
>>> notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).
>>
>>
>> I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an
>> area of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!
>>
>>
>>> Your betta bowls will
>>> behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a
>>> uninhabitable hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp
>>> matter will be residing), a tropical middle, and a vastly cooler
>>> upper strata.
>>
>>
>> Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
>> the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.
>>
>>
>>> You thought temperature
>>> swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to
>>> what happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature
>>> change _within the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)
>>
>>
>> Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
>> the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
>> plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place
>> of the heaters heating element. This 'thermostat' is then placed into
>> eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
>> jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all
>> the tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
>> aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
>> and easy! ............... Frank
>>
> Neat system. For the non-electronically inclined, if you have the
> betta bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal
> aquarium heater rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer
> heat to the bettas?

Yes you can Elaine - just put the heater in a small glass jar filled with
water and in turn put that jar in the tray of water which in turn has the
betta jars in the tray's water. Simple system I read about in an old
aquarium magazine a long time ago. The actual betta bowl water will be a
little lower in temperature than the heater jar but you can easily always
increase the thermostat's temperature (i.e. turn the knob on the heater a
little higher to compensate). Good luck and later!

NetMax

January 18th 06, 11:41 PM

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Koi-lo wrote,
>>How, since they don't usually turn on until it reaches something like
>>35 or 40F.
>
> The heat tape's thermostat is *removed* from the heat tape, along with
> it's plug. The two wires from the heat tape is then hooked to the
> aquarium heater (where it's heating element used to be). The heat tape
> becomes the aquarium heater's heat element - it's just no longer housed
> within the heaters glass tube, but instead runs under what ever your
> heating. Once the heating element is removed from the aquarium heater,
> the aquarium heater becomes only a thermostat for the heat tape.
>
>>Do you have pics of this on a website?
>
> Wish I did. The trouble is, I bred and raised fish and was into pet
> stores long before computers and websites. A few years back there was a
> couple of guys in this news group that used to buy their supplys from
> our pet shops, and had photos of the first shop - that was over 35
> years ago.
>
>>I'm going to mention this to my husband and see if we can come up with
>>something......
>
> If he has any questions, tell him to e-mail me,
> - remove spam.............. Frank

The aquarium heater is switching household AC voltage to that heating
tape, which was modified by removing the thermostat and will now be
submerged in water. I guess this is not for someone unfamiliar with
handling electricity then ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Frank

January 18th 06, 11:41 PM

David Zopf wrote,
> Howsabout this instead:
>Convection currents are slow to achieve an _even_ distribution of heat in a
>fluid medium.

I understand what your saying, but - since the heat source is from
below, and heat rises, it wouldn't be 'convection heat', would it not
be radiant heating? ............. Frank

Frank

January 18th 06, 11:49 PM

Daniel Morrow wrote,
>Yes you can Elaine - just put the heater in a small glass jar filled with
>water and in turn put that jar in the tray of water which in turn has the
>betta jars in the tray's water. Simple system I read about in an old
>aquarium magazine a long time ago. The actual betta bowl water will be a
>little lower in temperature than the heater jar but you can easily always
>increase the thermostat's temperature (i.e. turn the knob on the heater a
>little higher to compensate). Good luck and later!

No, this would then be like David was trying to point out (convection
heat), which wouldn't work very well at all........... Frank

NetMax

January 19th 06, 12:05 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Neat system. For the non-electronically inclined, if you have the
>>>betta bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal aquarium
>>>heater rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer heat to
>>>the bettas?
>>
>>
>> That's not a bad idea. The bowls should be up off the tray bottom on
>> some kind of "stilts" so the water could flow under them. The
>> temperature in the bowls would probably be a little lower than the
>> temperature in the tray.
>>
>> Now make the tray a long low (3"?) aquarium and let a bunch of white
>> clouds chase each other around the bowls :-).
>
> Now that would be a neat setup! I wouldn't be able to resist putting
> clumps of riccia or some java moss in there as well.
>
> --
> Elaine T

That would look neat, but what would be the food source for the plants?
(another container to add ferts to).
--
www.NetMax.tk

NetMax

January 19th 06, 12:10 AM

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> As a designer,
>> I'm accustomed to the majority of my ideas being bad, impractical or
>> otherwise unworkable. From an engineering perspective, this
>> 'scenario' offered some unconventional solutions for some conventional
>> problems.
>
> I did some computer consulting with a company that had "brainstorming"
> sessions. They finally gave up because the employees were too worried
> about throwing out bad ideas and looking bad. I couldn't have cared
> less and several of my ideas turned out to be at least partly useful.
>
> Of course I was also the guy who, when I made a particularly dumb
> mistake (they're all dumb when you catch them) would take a listing
> around and show to everyone so they wouldn't make the same dumb
> mistake.
>
> The funny thing is, I wound up with quite a good reputation :-).
>
> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

I try to leave my ego somewhere else when I sit down to lurk the
newsgroups. It was the same thing in the brainstorming sessions. One
time I got invited into a session which I had absolutely nothing to do
with (and knew nothing about). When I balked, they said that my presence
had a good effect. I guess that means they needed someone to lower the
bar on how dumb an idea could be suggested ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Richard Sexton

January 19th 06, 03:36 AM

>> What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
>> unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
>=======================
>Nah, someone needs to invent a heat TAPE for those with bowls or tanks in a
>row. The reptile folks would probably buy it as well as the fish people. I
>could be sold in several lengths to suit different needs.

Well in theory you just need a piece of stuff that at the
bottom is the ssame shape as the ratcage heater tape and the
top part morphs into a shabe that acts as a base for the bowls
or whatever.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-lo

January 19th 06, 04:52 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> The aquarium heater is switching household AC voltage to that heating
> tape, which was modified by removing the thermostat and will now be
> submerged in water. I guess this is not for someone unfamiliar with
> handling electricity then ;~).
============================
Electricity can KILL if you don't know what you're doing. :-( I just
need to raise the temperature of those betta tanks and bowls by a few
degrees. Some nights they drop down to 69F but the fish seem not to mind.
By afternoon they're warmed up and looking for food.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 19th 06, 04:54 AM

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> Now make the tray a long low (3"?) aquarium and let a bunch of white
> clouds chase each other around the bowls :-).
======================
I'd end up with some guppies in there, some Java moss, a few cutting from my
hanging begonias...... ;-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 19th 06, 05:02 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I wonder if I could buy them on a small business grant, incorporate, write
> them off as capital losses and then quietly go bankrupt ;~).
===========================
ROFLMAO!!!! :-D That's one way of doing it.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 19th 06, 05:15 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Thanks Koi-Lo, that's about right. In Canada a typical new house is two
> or three floors with the lower floor being the basement (often purchased
> unfinished and left to the owner to decide how to arrange it, either in
> bedrooms, bathrooms, rec room or den etc).

Exactly! We have the same here where solid near-surface rock doesn't
interfere with digging a basement. Some houses in my area are on slabs and
some on foundations like mine. We couldn't have a basement because of the
rock. The cost of blasting would have been prohibitive. I don't know
anyone out here with a basement. TN sits on solid limestone.

Once finished, there is
> little to distinguish a basement from any other level of a house except
> that it's floor is on concrete (house foundation), its windows start
> higher up (above the ground level), it is on or close to the same level as
> the garage, and the main utilities enter there (ie: electrical panels and
> laundry room are typically in the basement). Otherwise a basement can
> have bedrooms, entertainment systems, studio, workshops, etc and my fav.
> fishrooms :o).

The old house I lived in back east had a fantastic basement and I had loads
of tanks down there. The main room was actually a huge living room with a
sofa and chairs on one wall, and a TV and stereo on another. The rest of
the walls were mainly fish tanks. There was a bathroom, storage area,
laundry room and a small kitchen. An ideal set up for a fish addict. It
broke my heart to sell them all off when I moved to another town, then out
of state altogether. I only brought a few tanks down here with me but none
of the fish. :*( I sold what I could and gave the rest away. I sure miss
that basement.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Richard Sexton

January 19th 06, 05:21 AM

>Electricity can KILL if you don't know what you're doing.

It can kill you just as dead even if you do know what you're doing.

I didn't say this. George Booth did.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Curt

January 19th 06, 10:18 AM

Not this again!!!!

Flash Wilson

January 19th 06, 10:52 AM

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:37:03 -0700, Tedd Jacobs wrote:
>much the same with attic/loft, attic = storage, loft = habitable. of
>course this is all from a US perspective, you guys over the big water seem
>to have different words like 'lift', 'boot', and 'bobby' for 'elevator',
>'trunk', and 'copper'. ;-)

Yes indeed :) Divided by a common language, and all that ;)

But thanks to everyone for their answers, obviously I misunderstood
what was intended... and you guys can see why I thought you were
mad putting a fishtank in there with the mice!

>btw, were you gone for a while? havent seen you around untill just these
>past couple weeks. (or maybe that was just me being gone) ;-)

Yep, I got busy with work and sort of forgot to bother with news...
Sorry! Good to be back!

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Rocco Moretti

January 19th 06, 03:32 PM

Curt wrote:
> Not this again!!!!

Go to your newsreader help file. Look up the "ignore thread" or "kill
thread" option. (On my newsreader, it's tied to the 'k' key.) Whenever a
thread comes up that you don't like or care about, use that key/menu
option, and you never have to look at it again.

Much faster and easier than posting a complaint.

David Zopf

January 19th 06, 04:51 PM

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> David Zopf wrote,
>> Howsabout this instead:
>>Convection currents are slow to achieve an _even_ distribution of heat in
>>a
>>fluid medium.
>
> I understand what your saying, but - since the heat source is from
> below, and heat rises, it wouldn't be 'convection heat', would it not
> be radiant heating? ............. Frank
>

A conflict of definitions;

convection currents are the physical motions in a liquid medium which result
from differences in heat. In the abscence of mechanical agitation, they are
what provide mixing of differential temperature areas in a body of water.

convection heating is a term combining the effects of conduction (heat
transferred by the contact of two solid bodies of different temperatures)
and fluid flow (be it liquid or gas).

radiation heating is heat transferred due to the emission of electromagnetic
energy (like infrared energy travelling from the sun through the vacuum of
space heating the Earth, or the microwaves in a microwave oven heating your
veggies.)

"Radiant heating" is a term used by HVAC and building contractors for things
like household baseboard heating, but it actually provides a form of
convection heating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat#Heat_transfer_mechanisms

So i guess the answer is... Both? :-)

DZ
AW

David Zopf

January 19th 06, 04:54 PM

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Curt wrote:
>> Not this again!!!!
>
> Go to your newsreader help file. Look up the "ignore thread" or "kill
> thread" option. (On my newsreader, it's tied to the 'k' key.) Whenever a
> thread comes up that you don't like or care about, use that key/menu
> option, and you never have to look at it again.
>
> Much faster and easier than posting a complaint.

Too bad he's using Google Groups... (the lack of quoted context in his reply
is a giveaway)

Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

Koi-lo

January 19th 06, 05:06 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Electricity can KILL if you don't know what you're doing.
>
> It can kill you just as dead even if you do know what you're doing.
==========================
This is true. We have an electrician in the family (5 states away) and he
almost bought the farm a few years back. :-(
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Elaine T

January 19th 06, 08:17 PM

Frank wrote:
> Daniel Morrow wrote,
>
>>Yes you can Elaine - just put the heater in a small glass jar filled with
>>water and in turn put that jar in the tray of water which in turn has the
>>betta jars in the tray's water. Simple system I read about in an old
>>aquarium magazine a long time ago. The actual betta bowl water will be a
>>little lower in temperature than the heater jar but you can easily always
>>increase the thermostat's temperature (i.e. turn the knob on the heater a
>>little higher to compensate). Good luck and later!
>
>
> No, this would then be like David was trying to point out (convection
> heat), which wouldn't work very well at all........... Frank
>
Gotcha. Bummer. It sounded good...

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Stephen Provis

January 20th 06, 09:22 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
> >
> > "Ross T." > wrote in message
> > news:JMtAf.415014$ki.338713@pd7tw2no...
> >
> >> I'm at five, and I think its getting worse! Our aquarium club is
> >> having its semi annual auction this week. Lord save me from my fishie
> >> addiction!
> >>
> >> Ross T.
> >
> > ========================
> > Learn from a real fish addict. When I went to these back home in NY I
> > left my checkbook and cards at home along with all but $10 in cash.
> > This $10 was all I allowed myself to spend. If I had access to MONEY in
> > any form I would go home with my car packed to the roof with more
> > aquarium hobby related stuff than I needed - including fish.
>
> Oh to have that level of willpower :-) ....to actually remove the cards
> when going near an LFS...sadly I can't bring myself to do it...Looking
> forward to the major spending spree to set up the new tank :-)
>
> Funny, most women have shopping issues for buying clothes etc...not a
> major weakness for me...get me near an LFS and woops....

19 tanks and counting, husband won't let me have the car very often cause he
knows where I will end up, called my lfs over new year to check if they were
open when they answered he said "is that Michelle?"

Chelle Provis

January 20th 06, 09:58 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Stephen Provis wrote:
> > "Gill Passman" > wrote in message

> >
> >
> >
> > 19 tanks and counting, husband won't let me have the car very often
cause he
> > knows where I will end up, called my lfs over new year to check if they
were
> > open when they answered he said "is that Michelle?"
> >
> >
> Hmmm...so what costs more??? A fish addiction or a designer clothing
> addiction??? I reckon we are still cheaper to run...and afterall it
> enhances the home - LOL

plus the fish don't go out of fashion after two weeks, it keeps me busy and
saves me nagging him too much, he should count himself lucky I think

Curt

January 21st 06, 06:26 AM

I am new to this serious aquarium stuff. Goldfish in a bowl as a kid
but thats it. I came here to learn about fish and tank setups, not some
off the wall "predictions" Home aquariums will NEVER go away. And I DO
lurk a lot.
But bless you and your opinions anyway.

Tedd Jacobs

January 21st 06, 11:48 AM

"Curt" wrote...
> [...] And I DO
> lurk a lot.

/delurk

<pulls up a chair and slams a pair of drinks down on the table>

yeah! what he said!

/lurk

Richard Sexton

January 21st 06, 02:29 PM

In article . com>,
Curt > wrote:
>I am new to this serious aquarium stuff. Goldfish in a bowl as a kid
>but thats it. I came here to learn about fish and tank setups, not some
>off the wall "predictions" Home aquariums will NEVER go away. And I DO
>lurk a lot.
>But bless you and your opinions anyway.
>

Hello. My name is richard and I suffer from MTS.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Gill Passman

January 21st 06, 03:24 PM

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article . com>,
> Curt > wrote:
>
>>I am new to this serious aquarium stuff. Goldfish in a bowl as a kid
>>but thats it. I came here to learn about fish and tank setups, not some
>>off the wall "predictions" Home aquariums will NEVER go away. And I DO
>>lurk a lot.
>>But bless you and your opinions anyway.
>>
>
>
> Hello. My name is richard and I suffer from MTS.
>
>
LOL - me too, but if I remember correctly you have got it a lot worse
than me :-) I've only got 7 tanks up and running and a new one just
arrived at the LFS which in theory will replace at least one of the
7...hmmmm

Gill

Ross T.

January 21st 06, 05:00 PM

I'm at five, and I think its getting worse! Our aquarium club is having
its semi annual auction this week. Lord save me from my fishie addiction!

Ross T.

Koi-lo

January 21st 06, 06:27 PM

"Ross T." > wrote in message
news:JMtAf.415014$ki.338713@pd7tw2no...
> I'm at five, and I think its getting worse! Our aquarium club is having
> its semi annual auction this week. Lord save me from my fishie addiction!
>
> Ross T.
========================
Learn from a real fish addict. When I went to these back home in NY I left
my checkbook and cards at home along with all but $10 in cash. This $10 was
all I allowed myself to spend. If I had access to MONEY in any form I would
go home with my car packed to the roof with more aquarium hobby related
stuff than I needed - including fish.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

January 21st 06, 08:33 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Ross T." > wrote in message
> news:JMtAf.415014$ki.338713@pd7tw2no...
>
>> I'm at five, and I think its getting worse! Our aquarium club is
>> having its semi annual auction this week. Lord save me from my fishie
>> addiction!
>>
>> Ross T.
>
> ========================
> Learn from a real fish addict. When I went to these back home in NY I
> left my checkbook and cards at home along with all but $10 in cash.
> This $10 was all I allowed myself to spend. If I had access to MONEY in
> any form I would go home with my car packed to the roof with more
> aquarium hobby related stuff than I needed - including fish.

Oh to have that level of willpower :-) ....to actually remove the cards
when going near an LFS...sadly I can't bring myself to do it...Looking
forward to the major spending spree to set up the new tank :-)

Funny, most women have shopping issues for buying clothes etc...not a
major weakness for me...get me near an LFS and woops....

Gill Passman

January 21st 06, 09:51 PM

Stephen Provis wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>>>"Ross T." > wrote in message
>>>news:JMtAf.415014$ki.338713@pd7tw2no...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm at five, and I think its getting worse! Our aquarium club is
>>>>having its semi annual auction this week. Lord save me from my fishie
>>>>addiction!
>>>>
>>>>Ross T.
>>>
>>>========================
>>>Learn from a real fish addict. When I went to these back home in NY I
>>>left my checkbook and cards at home along with all but $10 in cash.
>>>This $10 was all I allowed myself to spend. If I had access to MONEY in
>>>any form I would go home with my car packed to the roof with more
>>>aquarium hobby related stuff than I needed - including fish.
>>
>>Oh to have that level of willpower :-) ....to actually remove the cards
>>when going near an LFS...sadly I can't bring myself to do it...Looking
>>forward to the major spending spree to set up the new tank :-)
>>
>>Funny, most women have shopping issues for buying clothes etc...not a
>>major weakness for me...get me near an LFS and woops....
>
>
>
> 19 tanks and counting, husband won't let me have the car very often cause he
> knows where I will end up, called my lfs over new year to check if they were
> open when they answered he said "is that Michelle?"
>
>
Hmmm...so what costs more??? A fish addiction or a designer clothing
addiction??? I reckon we are still cheaper to run...and afterall it
enhances the home - LOL

Richard Sexton

January 22nd 06, 12:37 AM

In article >,
Gill Passman > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> Curt > wrote:
>>
>>>I am new to this serious aquarium stuff. Goldfish in a bowl as a kid
>>>but thats it. I came here to learn about fish and tank setups, not some
>>>off the wall "predictions" Home aquariums will NEVER go away. And I DO
>>>lurk a lot.
>>>But bless you and your opinions anyway.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hello. My name is richard and I suffer from MTS.
>>
>>
>LOL - me too, but if I remember correctly you have got it a lot worse
>than me :-) I've only got 7 tanks up and running and a new one just
>arrived at the LFS which in theory will replace at least one of the
>7...hmmmm

Yeah, I've got 7 on the windowsill near my desk. I only have a dozen
others set up inside and a buttload empty out in the barn. I'm running into,
uh, structural limitations and have to do a bit of uh, renov^H^Hdecorating.

You know you've got it bad when the first thing you have to do to set up
your next tank is get a construction permit.

....but I can quit any time.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 22nd 06, 12:38 AM

In article <JMtAf.415014$ki.338713@pd7tw2no>, Ross T. > wrote:
>I'm at five, and I think its getting worse! Our aquarium club is having
>its semi annual auction this week. Lord save me from my fishie addiction!

Let me help. Which club did you say that was?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 22nd 06, 12:41 AM

>> Learn from a real fish addict. When I went to these back home in NY I
>> left my checkbook and cards at home along with all but $10 in cash.
>> This $10 was all I allowed myself to spend. If I had access to MONEY in
>> any form I would go home with my car packed to the roof with more
>> aquarium hobby related stuff than I needed - including fish.
>
>Oh to have that level of willpower :-)

Doesn't help. Thanks to craigslist there's free fish stuff all over America.

Seriously, check the free stuff listing on craigslist.org, poeple do give
away sometimes not small fishtanks. If your better half catches you quickly flip to
the personals. You'll be in less trouble.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Gill Passman

January 22nd 06, 12:47 AM

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article >,
> Gill Passman > wrote:
>
>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>
>>>In article . com>,
>>>Curt > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I am new to this serious aquarium stuff. Goldfish in a bowl as a kid
>>>>but thats it. I came here to learn about fish and tank setups, not some
>>>>off the wall "predictions" Home aquariums will NEVER go away. And I DO
>>>>lurk a lot.
>>>>But bless you and your opinions anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hello. My name is richard and I suffer from MTS.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>LOL - me too, but if I remember correctly you have got it a lot worse
>>than me :-) I've only got 7 tanks up and running and a new one just
>>arrived at the LFS which in theory will replace at least one of the
>>7...hmmmm
>
>
> Yeah, I've got 7 on the windowsill near my desk. I only have a dozen
> others set up inside and a buttload empty out in the barn. I'm running into,
> uh, structural limitations and have to do a bit of uh, renov^H^Hdecorating.
>
> You know you've got it bad when the first thing you have to do to set up
> your next tank is get a construction permit.
>
> ...but I can quit any time.
>
>
>
Yeah, yeah, I believe you.....millions wouldn't...my problem is wall
space but hey ho...quitting is not an option....btw where is that bottle
of Chardonnay????

Ross T.

January 22nd 06, 03:58 AM

He's a Troll

RossT

Daniel Morrow

January 22nd 06, 04:44 AM

Bottom posted.
Ross T. wrote:
> He's a Troll
>
> RossT

If you mean me there are several users here to vouch for me - I'll name
names if I need to Ross. If you don't mean me then that's cool. Good luck
and later!

Koi-lo

January 22nd 06, 05:51 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> Learn from a real fish addict. When I went to these back home in NY I
>> left my checkbook and cards at home along with all but $10 in cash. This
>> $10 was all I allowed myself to spend. If I had access to MONEY in any
>> form I would go home with my car packed to the roof with more aquarium
>> hobby related stuff than I needed - including fish.
>
> Oh to have that level of willpower :-) ....to actually remove the cards
> when going near an LFS...sadly I can't bring myself to do it...Looking
> forward to the major spending spree to set up the new tank :-)

Oh I had my spending sprees that's for sure. I spent many a hard earned
dollar at Fishtown USA when I lived in NY. But I must say I do have self
control,...er,... well most of the time. ;-) I did just buy another 600g
outdoor pool to raise some of my yearling butterfly koi in. But that was
only $14 plus $9 for the tarp to cover the ground under it. I already have
a pump and filter.

> Funny, most women have shopping issues for buying clothes etc...not a
> major weakness for me...get me near an LFS and woops....

I have more clothes, jewelry and perfume than I can shake a stick at. I do
enjoy clothes shopping - once in awhile. I'm in the LFSs every chance I
get. ;-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 22nd 06, 05:58 AM

"Stephen Provis" > wrote in message
...
> 19 tanks and counting, husband won't let me have the car very often cause
> he
> knows where I will end up, called my lfs over new year to check if they
> were
> open when they answered he said "is that Michelle?"
=============================
I have 8 set up right now plus 7 betta gallon containers. That's my limit.
Any more would become a job and not a pleasure. I love every aspect of fish
keeping but those *&^% partial water changes.

Outside I have 2 ponds plus 3 water-garden barrels, a 600g tank of koi
fingerlings and several 150g pools of shubunkin goldfish. I'll be setting
up another 600g pool in 2 months. All of these need partial water changes
and I'm not getting any younger. ;-) I wish I could find a reliable
teenager to help around here in the summer.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 22nd 06, 06:02 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
> Hmmm...so what costs more??? A fish addiction or a designer clothing
> addiction??? I reckon we are still cheaper to run...and afterall it
> enhances the home - LOL
==========================
You got that right, except some husbands don't see all those tanks as
enhancements. They will see some snug designer jeans an enhancement though.

A closet full of designer clothes is a lot less work than a house full of
fishtanks.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 22nd 06, 06:04 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>
> ...but I can quit any time.
===========================
That's what all ADDICTS say.... :(
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

January 22nd 06, 07:06 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> Curt > wrote:
>>I am new to this serious aquarium stuff. Goldfish in a bowl as a kid
>>but thats it. I came here to learn about fish and tank setups, not some
>>off the wall "predictions" Home aquariums will NEVER go away. And I DO
>>lurk a lot.
>>But bless you and your opinions anyway.
>>
>
> Hello. My name is richard and I suffer from MTS.
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton

My MTS is in remission (relatively speaking ;~). I got to set up &
stock over 100 tanks in a new store, and oversaw about 150 more in 2
other stores, so that has helped to keep my home relatively tank-free
(only about 230g in operation), and I now live vicariously through the ng
:o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Cliff L

January 22nd 06, 10:26 AM

> Have you looked at the heating mats for starting seeds in flats? They
> sit under the flat and the temperature should be in the 75-85 degree
> range.

Check garage sales for yogurt makers.

Cliff

Chelle Provis

January 22nd 06, 12:34 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stephen Provis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > 19 tanks and counting, husband won't let me have the car very often
cause
> > he
> > knows where I will end up, called my lfs over new year to check if they
> > were
> > open when they answered he said "is that Michelle?"
> =============================
> I have 8 set up right now plus 7 betta gallon containers. That's my
limit.
> Any more would become a job and not a pleasure. I love every aspect of
fish
> keeping but those *&^% partial water changes.
>
> Outside I have 2 ponds plus 3 water-garden barrels, a 600g tank of koi
> fingerlings and several 150g pools of shubunkin goldfish. I'll be setting
> up another 600g pool in 2 months. All of these need partial water changes
> and I'm not getting any younger. ;-) I wish I could find a reliable
> teenager to help around here in the summer.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
I find the water changes the biggest hurdle, trying to make time is my
problem, I have been known to do them at 3am, when my husband finally agreed
I could have a fish room, he did it on the condition that he wouldn't have
to do any changes, so set it up with a sink and put the tanks within easy
access of the window with a drain outside.

Chelle

Richard Sexton

January 22nd 06, 03:44 PM

>and I'm not getting any younger. ;-) I wish I could find a reliable
>teenager to help around here in the summer.

Reliable teenager. Good one.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

NetMax

January 22nd 06, 04:05 PM

or with a bit of punctuation..

Reliable teenager? Good one!

not impossible, but few and far between
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >and I'm not getting any younger. ;-) I wish I could find a reliable
>>teenager to help around here in the summer.
>
> Reliable teenager. Good one.
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Gill Passman

January 22nd 06, 05:37 PM

NetMax wrote:
> or with a bit of punctuation..
>
> Reliable teenager? Good one!
>
> not impossible, but few and far between

I know a couple...but they are home grown :-)

Koi-lo

January 22nd 06, 05:54 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> My MTS is in remission (relatively speaking ;~). I got to set up & stock
> over 100 tanks in a new store, and oversaw about 150 more in 2 other
> stores, so that has helped to keep my home relatively tank-free (only
> about 230g in operation), and I now live vicariously through the ng
==========================
*GASP!*..... are you saying you have only one tank setup in your home at
the moment?????
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

January 22nd 06, 06:25 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> or with a bit of punctuation..
>>
>> Reliable teenager? Good one!
>>
>> not impossible, but few and far between
>
> I know a couple...but they are home grown :-)
=============================
My son is grown and off on his own for years now. My 11 year old grandson
is very interested in tropical fish and goldfish I just learned. He lives
in another state. We had a nice talk on the phone last week. He's
graduating from bowls to his first fish tank this month. His dad never had
much interest in fish. I wish he lived closer.......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

January 22nd 06, 10:15 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> NetMax wrote:
>>> or with a bit of punctuation..
>>>
>>> Reliable teenager? Good one!
>>>
>>> not impossible, but few and far between
>>
>> I know a couple...but they are home grown :-)
> =============================
> My son is grown and off on his own for years now. My 11 year old
> grandson is very interested in tropical fish and goldfish I just
> learned. He lives in another state. We had a nice talk on the phone
> last week. He's graduating from bowls to his first fish tank this
> month. His dad never had much interest in fish. I wish he lived
> closer.......

Get his messenger (MSN, yahoo) address. He would be very lucky to have
your expertise to guide him.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

NetMax

January 22nd 06, 10:16 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> My MTS is in remission (relatively speaking ;~). I got to set up &
>> stock over 100 tanks in a new store, and oversaw about 150 more in 2
>> other stores, so that has helped to keep my home relatively tank-free
>> (only about 230g in operation), and I now live vicariously through the
>> ng
> ==========================
> *GASP!*..... are you saying you have only one tank setup in your home
> at the moment?????
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

:p no, I added the gallonage up ;~). I'm doing very well, with most of
my tanks sitting empty.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-lo

January 23rd 06, 02:18 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>>> *GASP!*..... are you saying you have only one tank setup in your home
>> at the moment?????
=================>
> :p no, I added the gallonage up ;~). I'm doing very well, with most of
> my tanks sitting empty.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
=========================
How can you stand an empty tank? I can't stop picturing something in empty
tanks, if only a few guppies or a GF. Such is the nature of those suffering
from MTS. I'm dying to set my 30L up and combine these small GF. I could
then dispense with these two 10s in my diningroom. I have room under the
bar between the kitchen and diningroom but the old rusty, decrepit stand is
too tall. Can you suggest something to keep it about 12" off the floor?
But then there's the danged support that supports the overhanging
bar-top..... Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

January 23rd 06, 07:17 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>>>> *GASP!*..... are you saying you have only one tank setup in your home
>>> at the moment?????
> =================>
>> :p no, I added the gallonage up ;~). I'm doing very well, with most of
>> my tanks sitting empty.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
> =========================
> How can you stand an empty tank? I can't stop picturing something in
> empty tanks, if only a few guppies or a GF. Such is the nature of those
> suffering from MTS. I'm dying to set my 30L up and combine these small
> GF. I could then dispense with these two 10s in my diningroom. I have
> room under the bar between the kitchen and diningroom but the old rusty,
> decrepit stand is too tall. Can you suggest something to keep it about
> 12" off the floor? But then there's the danged support that supports the
> overhanging bar-top..... Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

I got a good idea of where this 'hobby' could potentially take me when I was
setting up the fish dept in a new pet shop. There were 103 built-in tanks
to set up, decorate and stock. I figured that would keep me busy, but it
didn't, so I started filling up tanks in the hallways, and then out in the
product aisles, near the front doors, around the reptile dept. etc. Before
I was finished one tank, I would already be planning the next one.

Moral: given sufficient space, time, tanks and equipment, I don't think I
would run out of biotope ideas with anything less than 200 tanks.

So - until I have the space, time and *money*(!), I'm keeping a low profile,
and all the empty tanks are stacked inside each other in storage, out of
sight!

Besides, I have everyone's tanks here to talk about :o).

To suspend a small tank, use four 2x4s, cut to tank length plus 4", and
fasten to two 3/4" plywood tank-base plus 4" on length shelves. Stitch
stainless steel wire up & down through holes drilled into the 2x4 corners
about 1.5" in from the ends, so that you have two shelves, one on top of the
other, spaced by the tank height plus about 8" (access clearance). On the
top shelf, rig a hanging wire/chain to a reinforced point on the ceiling
(attic access is highly recommended to be able to spread the weight around
and to install a GFI outlet in a ceiling receptacle). Place a potted
climbing plant on the upper shelf such that the stems/leaves travel up the
hanging wire/chain (which is also where you will hide your power cord(s)).
Silk plants work well in this application, especially if you opt to have the
power bar on the 2nd shelf instead of a ceiling recess, however if the
plants are real, aquarium water is conveniently located and very healthy for
plants. When you have drawn this all out, plan some trim to hide the 2x4
ends (overhang the shelves slightly), and stain to match near-by furniture.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-lo

January 23rd 06, 07:52 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I got a good idea of where this 'hobby' could potentially take me when I
> was setting up the fish dept in a new pet shop. There were 103 built-in
> tanks to set up, decorate and stock. I figured that would keep me busy,
> but it didn't, so I started filling up tanks in the hallways, and then out
> in the product aisles, near the front doors, around the reptile dept. etc.
> Before I was finished one tank, I would already be planning the next one.

It's like a disease. :-(((

> Moral: given sufficient space, time, tanks and equipment, I don't think I
> would run out of biotope ideas with anything less than 200 tanks.
>
> So - until I have the space, time and *money*(!), I'm keeping a low
> profile, and all the empty tanks are stacked inside each other in storage,
> out of sight!
>
> Besides, I have everyone's tanks here to talk about :o).

This is true and an outlet for those suffering from MTS.

> To suspend a small tank, use four 2x4s, cut to tank length plus 4", and
> fasten to two 3/4" plywood tank-base plus 4" on length shelves. Stitch
> stainless steel wire up & down through holes drilled into the 2x4 corners
> about 1.5" in from the ends, so that you have two shelves, one on top of
> the other, spaced by the tank height plus about 8" (access clearance). On
> the top shelf, rig a hanging wire/chain to a reinforced point on the
> ceiling

Suspend the tank? I can't suspend a 30L tank. The problem is the stand is
too tall to put the tank on the floor under the bar overhang. I need some
kind of inexpensive "stand" to rise it above floor level but keep in under
the bar over hang. Something about 12" high. Maybe 2x4s on cinderblocks
covered with Styrofoam?!?!?! Something to support the base.

> (attic access is highly recommended to be able to spread the weight around
> and to install a GFI outlet in a ceiling receptacle). Place a potted
> climbing plant on the upper shelf such that the stems/leaves travel up the
> hanging wire/chain (which is also where you will hide your power cord(s)).

Now that sounds great! :-)

> Silk plants work well in this application, especially if you opt to have
> the power bar on the 2nd shelf instead of a ceiling recess, however if the
> plants are real, aquarium water is conveniently located and very healthy
> for plants. When you have drawn this all out, plan some trim to hide the
> 2x4 ends (overhang the shelves slightly), and stain to match near-by
> furniture.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

>
>

Chelle Provis

January 23rd 06, 11:10 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chelle Provis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I find the water changes the biggest hurdle, trying to make time is my
> > problem, I have been known to do them at 3am, when my husband finally
> > agreed
> > I could have a fish room,
>
> Yes, I fully understand that. TIME and it's B-O-R-I-N-G. After the 4th
or
> 5th tank I'm almost running on Auto-pilot.
>
> he did it on the condition that he wouldn't have
> > to do any changes, so set it up with a sink and put the tanks within
easy
> > access of the window with a drain outside.
>
> I have a similar set-up in my sun-plant-fishroom. :-) My husband does
> nothing with the tanks or plants. He will check out new fish I bring in
and
> that's as far as his interest goes.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
he does have one tank of his own, the marine in the front room, he is yet to
do anything to it though and we have had it for 18 months, but he tells his
friends about "his" marine tank.
oh and he enjoys taking his friends on the tours of the tanks, he seems to
have a lot of knowledge, what they don't know is he gets all the info on the
fish, water quality etc from the log book I keep on each tank