Persistent ammonia 8.0ppm!!

[Maria]

4 weeks ago, I found my Red Tailed Black Shark had died overnight,
despite showing no noticeable symptoms of illness or changes in
behaviour. Also, most of the fish were suffering - gasping at the
surface or resting on the gravel, gasping. My angelfish had mucus
trailing from their fins. Tests showed pH 7.4, nitrate & nitrite at
zero but ammonia levels at 8ppm - I was shocked! I hadn't closely
observed the tank (other than feeding) for about a week but this was
really out of the blue.

I undertook a 70% water change, followed by 30% changes every couple of
days for the next week (30% weekly since then). I lost several more
fish over the following few days so I added Ammo Lock and aquarium
salt, which seemed to help - the fish stopped gasping and the mucus
disappeared.

The fish have since regained their appetites and the remaining plants
have started growing again. However, I now do water tests every other
day and everything remains the same, including ammonia at 8ppm.

I haven't added any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt for about a week and I
did a 70% water change yesterday but the test is still showing 8ppm -
how can this be after changing 70% of the water? I use the same test
kit for my other tank, which shows zero ammonia so I know the kit is
working. By not adding any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt, am I risking
more deaths?

The ammonia spike can only have been caused by a fungus treatment I
used a week earlier, which must have killed off the filter bacteria. I
now add biofilter booster every water change.

Can anybody suggest anything? My tank is just over a year old and I've
never had any problems with the nitrogen cycle before. I dread
switching on the lights every morning now in case there's been another
death. Fishkeeping has gone from a joy to a stressful trauma :(

[Justice]

Maria wrote:
> 4 weeks ago, I found my Red Tailed Black Shark had died overnight,
> despite showing no noticeable symptoms of illness or changes in
> behaviour. Also, most of the fish were suffering - gasping at the
> surface or resting on the gravel, gasping. My angelfish had mucus
> trailing from their fins. Tests showed pH 7.4, nitrate & nitrite at
> zero but ammonia levels at 8ppm - I was shocked! I hadn't closely
> observed the tank (other than feeding) for about a week but this was
> really out of the blue.
>
> I undertook a 70% water change, followed by 30% changes every couple of
> days for the next week (30% weekly since then). I lost several more
> fish over the following few days so I added Ammo Lock and aquarium
> salt, which seemed to help - the fish stopped gasping and the mucus
> disappeared.
>
> The fish have since regained their appetites and the remaining plants
> have started growing again. However, I now do water tests every other
> day and everything remains the same, including ammonia at 8ppm.
>
> I haven't added any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt for about a week and I
> did a 70% water change yesterday but the test is still showing 8ppm -
> how can this be after changing 70% of the water? I use the same test
> kit for my other tank, which shows zero ammonia so I know the kit is
> working. By not adding any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt, am I risking
> more deaths?
>
> The ammonia spike can only have been caused by a fungus treatment I
> used a week earlier, which must have killed off the filter bacteria. I
> now add biofilter booster every water change.
>
> Can anybody suggest anything? My tank is just over a year old and I've
> never had any problems with the nitrogen cycle before. I dread
> switching on the lights every morning now in case there's been another
> death. Fishkeeping has gone from a joy to a stressful trauma :(
>
IMO chance you water daily but not to the extream of 70% try about
10-20% go to your LFS and ask for some bottlet bactira My last tank I
got came with "BIO SUPPORT" witch is bottled bactira. Do you add
decloranators? If not you are killing all the good bactiera that eats
amomnia.

[NetMax]

"Maria" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>4 weeks ago, I found my Red Tailed Black Shark had died overnight,
> despite showing no noticeable symptoms of illness or changes in
> behaviour. Also, most of the fish were suffering - gasping at the
> surface or resting on the gravel, gasping. My angelfish had mucus
> trailing from their fins. Tests showed pH 7.4, nitrate & nitrite at
> zero but ammonia levels at 8ppm - I was shocked! I hadn't closely
> observed the tank (other than feeding) for about a week but this was
> really out of the blue.
>
> I undertook a 70% water change, followed by 30% changes every couple of
> days for the next week (30% weekly since then). I lost several more
> fish over the following few days so I added Ammo Lock and aquarium
> salt, which seemed to help - the fish stopped gasping and the mucus
> disappeared.
>
> The fish have since regained their appetites and the remaining plants
> have started growing again. However, I now do water tests every other
> day and everything remains the same, including ammonia at 8ppm.
>
> I haven't added any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt for about a week and I
> did a 70% water change yesterday but the test is still showing 8ppm -
> how can this be after changing 70% of the water? I use the same test
> kit for my other tank, which shows zero ammonia so I know the kit is
> working. By not adding any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt, am I risking
> more deaths?
>
> The ammonia spike can only have been caused by a fungus treatment I
> used a week earlier, which must have killed off the filter bacteria. I
> now add biofilter booster every water change.
>
> Can anybody suggest anything? My tank is just over a year old and I've
> never had any problems with the nitrogen cycle before. I dread
> switching on the lights every morning now in case there's been another
> death. Fishkeeping has gone from a joy to a stressful trauma :(


I think the course of action you've taken is correct. I've also found
that ammonia dilution is not linear to water changes. Changing half the
water will NOT reduce the ammonia by 50%, though my only explanation is
that it's not a static system (decaying organic matter in the filters and
gravel along with fish respiration are constantly adding to it). The
extent and speed which this occurred suggests the tank was already
operating with very low safety margin (either too many fish, or
underfiltered), so correcting the ammonia level might be very slow to do
(unless you reduce the fish-load or add more filtration if applicable).

In conditions where extreme parameters need to be controlled (ie: pH
crash or nitrogen spikes), one course of action is to move all the fish
and about 50% of the water to a bare-bottom tank with new filters, and
seed the tank (Bio-spira is frequently mentioned, if available in your
area). Then subsequent water changes will produce more of the expected
results (having removed most of the other contributing variables).

Alternately, continue aggressive water changes. At this point, your tank
water should be very similar to your tap water conditions (except for the
ammonia level) so large water changes will be relatively safe (watch for
the effects of dissolved gases in the tap water, aerate the tank
heavily). Also check your ammonia level out of your tap, your ammonia
test kit (2 or 3 reagent?) measuring NH3 or NH3+NH4, your test kit expiry
date, have the water tested by a different test kit (local pet shop?),
check the condition of your filters (not clogged, pumping well) and the
substrate (not excessively packed with detritus). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[the chris]

Maybe try adding some zeolite to your filter?

- chris

"Maria" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>4 weeks ago, I found my Red Tailed Black Shark had died overnight,
> despite showing no noticeable symptoms of illness or changes in
> behaviour. Also, most of the fish were suffering - gasping at the
> surface or resting on the gravel, gasping. My angelfish had mucus
> trailing from their fins. Tests showed pH 7.4, nitrate & nitrite at
> zero but ammonia levels at 8ppm - I was shocked! I hadn't closely
> observed the tank (other than feeding) for about a week but this was
> really out of the blue.
>
> I undertook a 70% water change, followed by 30% changes every couple of
> days for the next week (30% weekly since then). I lost several more
> fish over the following few days so I added Ammo Lock and aquarium
> salt, which seemed to help - the fish stopped gasping and the mucus
> disappeared.
>
> The fish have since regained their appetites and the remaining plants
> have started growing again. However, I now do water tests every other
> day and everything remains the same, including ammonia at 8ppm.
>
> I haven't added any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt for about a week and I
> did a 70% water change yesterday but the test is still showing 8ppm -
> how can this be after changing 70% of the water? I use the same test
> kit for my other tank, which shows zero ammonia so I know the kit is
> working. By not adding any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt, am I risking
> more deaths?
>
> The ammonia spike can only have been caused by a fungus treatment I
> used a week earlier, which must have killed off the filter bacteria. I
> now add biofilter booster every water change.
>
> Can anybody suggest anything? My tank is just over a year old and I've
> never had any problems with the nitrogen cycle before. I dread
> switching on the lights every morning now in case there's been another
> death. Fishkeeping has gone from a joy to a stressful trauma :(
>

[Koi-lo]

"Maria" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>4 weeks ago, I found my Red Tailed Black Shark had died overnight,
> despite showing no noticeable symptoms of illness or changes in
> behaviour. Also, most of the fish were suffering - gasping at the
> surface or resting on the gravel, gasping. My angelfish had mucus
> trailing from their fins. Tests showed pH 7.4, nitrate & nitrite at
> zero but ammonia levels at 8ppm - I was shocked! I hadn't closely
> observed the tank (other than feeding) for about a week but this was
> really out of the blue.

Did someone dump a load of food in accidentally? How about a large dead
fish decomposing behind plants or trapped inside an ornament?

> I undertook a 70% water change, followed by 30% changes every couple of
> days for the next week (30% weekly since then). I lost several more
> fish over the following few days so I added Ammo Lock and aquarium
> salt, which seemed to help - the fish stopped gasping and the mucus
> disappeared.

How may fish are in this tank and how many gallons is it?

> The fish have since regained their appetites and the remaining plants
> have started growing again. However, I now do water tests every other
> day and everything remains the same, including ammonia at 8ppm.

You may want to try ANOTHER kit. At 8ppm they wouldn't be to healthy.......

> I haven't added any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt for about a week and I
> did a 70% water change yesterday but the test is still showing 8ppm -
> how can this be after changing 70% of the water?
I use the same test
> kit for my other tank, which shows zero ammonia so I know the kit is
> working. By not adding any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt, am I risking
> more deaths?

I don't use these products so can't comment. Why screw up the testing using
such stuff? Just keep doing the water changes and feed less. Something
sounds wrong with this. After a 70% water change you should get a lower
ammonia reading.

> The ammonia spike can only have been caused by a fungus treatment I
> used a week earlier, which must have killed off the filter bacteria. I
> now add biofilter booster every water change.

From what I recently learned only BioSpira has the type of bacteria you
need. If your fish had to be treated for fungus you already had a serious
problem in your tank. Again, how many fish are in your tank and how many
gallons is this tank? What kind of filter are you using?

> Can anybody suggest anything? My tank is just over a year old and I've
> never had any problems with the nitrogen cycle before.

Your fish have been GROWING making more waste. Healthy fish don't need
treatment for fungus.

I dread
> switching on the lights every morning now in case there's been another
> death. Fishkeeping has gone from a joy to a stressful trauma :(

Have you been doing regular partial water changes all along? Did they
suddenly, out of the blue start gasping at the surface?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
Also check your ammonia level out of your tap, your ammonia
> test kit (2 or 3 reagent?) measuring NH3 or NH3+NH4, your test kit expiry
> date, have the water tested by a different test kit (local pet shop?),
> check the condition of your filters (not clogged, pumping well) and the
> substrate (not excessively packed with detritus). hth
=======================
I think the OPs tank crashed because there are too many fish in the tank
(very common problem), not enough filtration (for the number and size of the
fish-fish grow), gravel not vacced regularly (I've seen gravel buried in
crud), partial water changes not done often enough (owner too busy to do
them), some over-feeding perhaps (just drop the food in and run) and no one
noticing the fish were starting to show stress (lack of interest. Busy
life)........ it happens.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
Maria wrote:
> 4 weeks ago, I found my Red Tailed Black Shark had died overnight,
> despite showing no noticeable symptoms of illness or changes in
> behaviour. Also, most of the fish were suffering - gasping at the
> surface or resting on the gravel, gasping. My angelfish had mucus
> trailing from their fins. Tests showed pH 7.4, nitrate & nitrite at
> zero but ammonia levels at 8ppm - I was shocked! I hadn't closely
> observed the tank (other than feeding) for about a week but this was
> really out of the blue.
>
> I undertook a 70% water change, followed by 30% changes every couple
> of days for the next week (30% weekly since then). I lost several
> more fish over the following few days so I added Ammo Lock and
> aquarium salt, which seemed to help - the fish stopped gasping and
> the mucus disappeared.
>
> The fish have since regained their appetites and the remaining plants
> have started growing again. However, I now do water tests every other
> day and everything remains the same, including ammonia at 8ppm.
>
> I haven't added any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt for about a week and I
> did a 70% water change yesterday but the test is still showing 8ppm -
> how can this be after changing 70% of the water? I use the same test
> kit for my other tank, which shows zero ammonia so I know the kit is
> working. By not adding any Ammo Lock or aquarium salt, am I risking
> more deaths?
>
> The ammonia spike can only have been caused by a fungus treatment I
> used a week earlier, which must have killed off the filter bacteria. I
> now add biofilter booster every water change.
>
> Can anybody suggest anything? My tank is just over a year old and
> I've never had any problems with the nitrogen cycle before. I dread
> switching on the lights every morning now in case there's been another
> death. Fishkeeping has gone from a joy to a stressful trauma :(

Your water source (i.e. city tap water) may have changed from chlorinated
water to water with chloramines in it and you might be using a dechlorinator
that doesn't neutralize the chloramines or you might be using a
dechlorinator that doesn't neutralize the ammonia created from detoxifying
the chloramines (most likely). So - summary - make sure you are using a good
dechlorinator that not only neutralizes chloramines but neutralizes the
ammonia that is generated from that process. And have the dechlorinator
dechlorinate like the old way too just for good measure. Also - the ammonia
you are detecting might be deactivated ammonia the ammo-lok creates thus
explaining the still significantly large ammonia measurement readings. What
to do about it? - try weaning your fish off of the ammolok and change a
significant amount of water frequently at the very least until it is under
control. Good luck and later!

[Sue]

Doesn't ammo lock give false positive readings with some test kits?

[Maria]

Thanks for all the input - I really appreciate everybody taking the
time to read my huge post. My tank is a 26g with internal power filter
(coarse/bio/carbon/zeolite/prefilter) - I have 2 angelfish, 4 bronze
corydoras and 12 xray tetras remaining (having lost 7 fish to this ammo
spike). Regarding my maintenance programme, I do a weekly 30% change
and clean the sponges in old aquarium water, replacing one of the 5
sponges every few weeks and the prefilter polypad every 2 weeks. I also
use a gravel vac every other week. My tank has been at the pre-ammo
spike capacity with this maintenance programme for the past six months
with no losses or problems, other than a dot of fluff-like fungus on my
golden ram. As mentioned, I treated this and a week later got the
ammonia spike.

I have already added some zeolite but I read that it's useless in water
treated with aquarium salt, which would account for why it hasn't
affected the ammonia levels.

I have decided to try to wean the tank off the ammolock, doing changes
every other day between 30-50%. The ammonia level of my tapwater is
practically zero (I tested that a couple of weeks ago). I always use a
dechlorinator that neutralises chloramine and excess ammonia too, as
well as bottled bacteria. My test kit is a 2 reagent within its expiry
date and I use it on my other tank, which shows a reading of 0ppm, so I
am pretty sure it's not a faulty kit. I think I'll take a sample of
the tank water to the LFS for testing anyway, just for curiosity.
Unfortunately, I don't have a spare tank to rehouse them - my other
tank can't take any more fish without overloading it.

I agree that the ammonia is deactivated (hence the fish still surviving
in such toxic water) but I'm just really concerned about why the levels
aren't dropping 4 weeks after taking drastic and continuing action. I
am persevering and hopefully, my patience will be rewarded by a swift
return to the lovely condition the tank was in before :)

[Mary Burns]

"Maria" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thanks for all the input - I really appreciate everybody taking the
> time to read my huge post. My tank is a 26g with internal power filter
> (coarse/bio/carbon/zeolite/prefilter) - I have 2 angelfish, 4 bronze
> corydoras and 12 xray tetras remaining (having lost 7 fish to this ammo
> spike). Regarding my maintenance programme, I do a weekly 30% change
> and clean the sponges in old aquarium water, replacing one of the 5
> sponges every few weeks and the prefilter polypad every 2 weeks. I also
> use a gravel vac every other week. My tank has been at the pre-ammo
> spike capacity with this maintenance programme for the past six months
> with no losses or problems, other than a dot of fluff-like fungus on my
> golden ram. As mentioned, I treated this and a week later got the
> ammonia spike.
>
> I have already added some zeolite but I read that it's useless in water
> treated with aquarium salt, which would account for why it hasn't
> affected the ammonia levels.
>
> I have decided to try to wean the tank off the ammolock, doing changes
> every other day between 30-50%. The ammonia level of my tapwater is
> practically zero (I tested that a couple of weeks ago). I always use a
> dechlorinator that neutralises chloramine and excess ammonia too, as
> well as bottled bacteria. My test kit is a 2 reagent within its expiry
> date and I use it on my other tank, which shows a reading of 0ppm, so I
> am pretty sure it's not a faulty kit. I think I'll take a sample of
> the tank water to the LFS for testing anyway, just for curiosity.
> Unfortunately, I don't have a spare tank to rehouse them - my other
> tank can't take any more fish without overloading it.
>
> I agree that the ammonia is deactivated (hence the fish still surviving
> in such toxic water) but I'm just really concerned about why the levels
> aren't dropping 4 weeks after taking drastic and continuing action. I
> am persevering and hopefully, my patience will be rewarded by a swift
> return to the lovely condition the tank was in before :)
>

Your tank was probably overstocked, allowing 1" to1.25" for each prestella
(x ray) x 19 and the cories, would be enough for 26g. Depending how big the
angels are adds more problems. With 12 tetra left and cories, if angels are
really small you have some breathing space. 2 spawning angels need 20g
minimum and adult angels at least 10g each, so your tank will be overstocked
again soon. Angels do need more frequent water changes. I have 4 in a 45g, 2
spawning pairs and they get 3 x 20% a week minimum. As angels get older,
they may not like fast moving tetra as tankmates. I have 10 xray tetra with
my clown loaches and they get along ok, both enjoying a strong flow in tank.
Mary

[Far Thunder]

"Maria" > wrote in message
*SNIP*

> I agree that the ammonia is deactivated (hence the fish still surviving
> in such toxic water) but I'm just really concerned about why the levels
> aren't dropping 4 weeks after taking drastic and continuing action. I
> am persevering and hopefully, my patience will be rewarded by a swift
> return to the lovely condition the tank was in before :)



Just out of curiosity, what's that tank reading for pH? Ammonia is converted to ammonium at low pH, I believe this is how
ammo-lock works (?) Ammonium is "less" toxic to fish, so long as you don't raise the pH (ammonium converts back into ammonia)
it increases the amount required to kill your fish. If it's been four weeks since using ammo-lock, that's one thing..if you
have been continuously using it, thereby keeping your pH artificially low to maintain ammonium-form of nitrogen, seems to me
that perhaps your "good" bacteria in your filter have gone dormant or died due to the low pH level. I'm no expert on the
technical ranges of the bacteria to digest toxins efficiently (6.2 is lower limit ??), but there's probably information on
that on the web via google etc. this may explain why you're seeing no drop in ammonia/ammonium levels despite using whichever
bacteria-in-a-bottle your happen to have. I'd check the pH and KH levels of tank and see if this is the case and devise a
plan of action accordingly. I don't see any test readings that you've posted, except for the off the chart ammonia/ammonium
readings, perhaps I've missed them. the absence of nitrITE and nitrATE would probably indicate your bacteria have been
disrupted also. If that's the case, we can advise you on what that plan may entail :)

HTH
lila pilamaya

*



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[Maria]

pH is 7.4 right now.

I did another 50% change yesterday so that's 2 x 50% this week - ammo
reading came in somewhere between 4-6ppm (shade of green between the 4
& 6ppm on the colour chart). I intend doing 2 more changes at 50% over
the next 4 days so fingers crossed!

[Maria]

Oops - just realised I gave tank size in UK gallons - it is 31g in US
measure.

[IDzine01]

Also, a Nessler Ammonia test kit will measure the total ammonia +
ammonium giving what appears to be a false positive for dangerous
ammonia. She needs to be sure she's using a Salicylate ammonia test kit
for an accurate reading. I use AmQuel+, which also converts ammonia and
requires the later.

I agree that something is going on with the bacteria in the tank.
Nitrifying bacteria will consume both ammonia and ammonium so there are
definitely problems even if her test kit was measuring the ammonium
levels. Maybe you're washing your filters too well and removing most of
the bacteria causing your tank to perpetually cycle. I dunno.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Maria" > Spake Unto All:

>pH is 7.4 right now.

Without checking charts I don't know the percentage of nitrogenous
compounds which will be present as ammonia at that pH, but it's a
significant percentage, and as 1 ppm of ammonia is lethally toxic to
most fish, you definitely have a 'condition red' situation on your
hands, and you should step up the water changing.

If your ammonia test kit can be trusted, that is. Have you tried
measuring ammonia in your tap water, and perhaps also some known safe
water (e.g. bottled non-sparkling low-sodium water)?

[Maria]

Thanks for all your help guys - ammo reading is now down to 1ppm,
having changed 200% over the course of 7 days. I didn't have the
confidence to do such aggressive changes so frequently but your help
and advice spurred me on and now things are settling down to a more
normal state.

Thanks again :)