Dead fish in a clean tank.

[Mike Kelly]

Hi all, I need some help here, please.

I think I did it, due to being stupid. I put a lawnmower blenny and a green
Mithrax crab in the tank without leaving it in the isolation tank for 2
weeks. This LFS came recommended to me by a business associate, so I just
assumed that they sold healthy fish (duh). This was about ten days ago. A
few days ago, my flame angel had ich that went away after 1 day, and then
the blenny died today. Before he died he was doing that "scratchy" thing
that you might see fish do in a tank with high ammonia, where they might
scratch the side of their heads against a rock or whatever. Now, the
Fridmani Pseudochromis has one eye slightly bulging, and has a spot that
looks like a tiny bruise, halfway down his body, on the side with the
slightly bulgy eye.

To compound things, I had one of those cheap floating thermometers in the
tank. 3 or 4 inch glass tube, metal weights in the bottom, very thin red
tube inside to indicate temperature. How, I have no idea, but 2 mornings
ago, it was on the bottom of the tank, because the glass at the top end had
broken. I pulled the thermometer out of the tank, but never did find the
bit(s) of broken glass. The thermometer still read 74 degrees Farenheit when
I pulled it out, and all the "red stuff" (alcohol, I think), appeared to be
in the thin little tube

I have no corals yet, just crabs, snails and a green brittle star. They all
seem to be doing fine.

Here is the water test results, all done with aquarium pharmaceuticals kits.
Inconclusive results below are due to me not being 100% sure of an exact
color match on the comparison cards these kits have.

Ph is between 8.1 and 8.2
Nitrites, Nitrates, Phosphates are all 0
Kh is 125.3
Calcium is 520 (Oceanic salt mix comes too high for a FOLR tank, I think).
Ammonia is either 0 or possibly a tiny, tiny bit above 0, I'm not 100% sure.
Its WAY below the .25 PPM color on the card
Specific gravity is a bit low, 1.021

Any suggestions on water parameters, or any theories on why the blenny died?
I saw no obvious signs of disease on him..

thanks, Mike

[Wayne Sallee]

Fish come in from the wholesalers stressed out, druged,
and usualy half starved. I always tell my customers to not
buy the fish untill I have had it at least 7 days. I also
don't dump harmfull chemicals in the tanks like wholsalers
and most stores do. Even coper is hard on the nervous
system. Anyway, your fish was probably on it's way out
already.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Mike Kelly wrote on 1/18/2006 8:54 PM:
> Hi all, I need some help here, please.
>
> I think I did it, due to being stupid. I put a lawnmower blenny and a green
> Mithrax crab in the tank without leaving it in the isolation tank for 2
> weeks. This LFS came recommended to me by a business associate, so I just
> assumed that they sold healthy fish (duh). This was about ten days ago. A
> few days ago, my flame angel had ich that went away after 1 day, and then
> the blenny died today. Before he died he was doing that "scratchy" thing
> that you might see fish do in a tank with high ammonia, where they might
> scratch the side of their heads against a rock or whatever. Now, the
> Fridmani Pseudochromis has one eye slightly bulging, and has a spot that
> looks like a tiny bruise, halfway down his body, on the side with the
> slightly bulgy eye.
>
> To compound things, I had one of those cheap floating thermometers in the
> tank. 3 or 4 inch glass tube, metal weights in the bottom, very thin red
> tube inside to indicate temperature. How, I have no idea, but 2 mornings
> ago, it was on the bottom of the tank, because the glass at the top end had
> broken. I pulled the thermometer out of the tank, but never did find the
> bit(s) of broken glass. The thermometer still read 74 degrees Farenheit when
> I pulled it out, and all the "red stuff" (alcohol, I think), appeared to be
> in the thin little tube
>
> I have no corals yet, just crabs, snails and a green brittle star. They all
> seem to be doing fine.
>
> Here is the water test results, all done with aquarium pharmaceuticals kits.
> Inconclusive results below are due to me not being 100% sure of an exact
> color match on the comparison cards these kits have.
>
> Ph is between 8.1 and 8.2
> Nitrites, Nitrates, Phosphates are all 0
> Kh is 125.3
> Calcium is 520 (Oceanic salt mix comes too high for a FOLR tank, I think).
> Ammonia is either 0 or possibly a tiny, tiny bit above 0, I'm not 100% sure.
> Its WAY below the .25 PPM color on the card
> Specific gravity is a bit low, 1.021
>
> Any suggestions on water parameters, or any theories on why the blenny died?
> I saw no obvious signs of disease on him..
>
> thanks, Mike
>
>

[Michael Lawford]

Another thing to check for is Velvet - its very hard to pick up - you have
to look HARD whereas ich is much easier to see...

~m

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Fish come in from the wholesalers stressed out, druged, and usualy half
> starved. I always tell my customers to not buy the fish untill I have had
> it at least 7 days. I also don't dump harmfull chemicals in the tanks like
> wholsalers and most stores do. Even coper is hard on the nervous system.
> Anyway, your fish was probably on it's way out already.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Mike Kelly wrote on 1/18/2006 8:54 PM:
>> Hi all, I need some help here, please.
>>
>> I think I did it, due to being stupid. I put a lawnmower blenny and a
>> green Mithrax crab in the tank without leaving it in the isolation tank
>> for 2 weeks. This LFS came recommended to me by a business associate, so
>> I just assumed that they sold healthy fish (duh). This was about ten days
>> ago. A few days ago, my flame angel had ich that went away after 1 day,
>> and then the blenny died today. Before he died he was doing that
>> "scratchy" thing that you might see fish do in a tank with high ammonia,
>> where they might scratch the side of their heads against a rock or
>> whatever. Now, the Fridmani Pseudochromis has one eye slightly bulging,
>> and has a spot that looks like a tiny bruise, halfway down his body, on
>> the side with the slightly bulgy eye.
>>
>> To compound things, I had one of those cheap floating thermometers in the
>> tank. 3 or 4 inch glass tube, metal weights in the bottom, very thin red
>> tube inside to indicate temperature. How, I have no idea, but 2 mornings
>> ago, it was on the bottom of the tank, because the glass at the top end
>> had broken. I pulled the thermometer out of the tank, but never did find
>> the bit(s) of broken glass. The thermometer still read 74 degrees
>> Farenheit when I pulled it out, and all the "red stuff" (alcohol, I
>> think), appeared to be in the thin little tube
>>
>> I have no corals yet, just crabs, snails and a green brittle star. They
>> all seem to be doing fine.
>>
>> Here is the water test results, all done with aquarium pharmaceuticals
>> kits. Inconclusive results below are due to me not being 100% sure of an
>> exact color match on the comparison cards these kits have.
>>
>> Ph is between 8.1 and 8.2
>> Nitrites, Nitrates, Phosphates are all 0
>> Kh is 125.3
>> Calcium is 520 (Oceanic salt mix comes too high for a FOLR tank, I
>> think).
>> Ammonia is either 0 or possibly a tiny, tiny bit above 0, I'm not 100%
>> sure. Its WAY below the .25 PPM color on the card
>> Specific gravity is a bit low, 1.021
>>
>> Any suggestions on water parameters, or any theories on why the blenny
>> died? I saw no obvious signs of disease on him..
>>
>> thanks, Mike
>>

[George Patterson]

Mike Kelly wrote:

> Before he died he was doing that "scratchy" thing
> that you might see fish do in a tank with high ammonia, where they might
> scratch the side of their heads against a rock or whatever.

This usually indicates some sort of parasite of the gills. If there's no
external evidence, it's probably gill flukes. Fortunately, most of these require
a secondary host (usually a snail of some sort) to reproduce. If you don't have
the secondary host in the tank, they will die out.

Ick also does this, but the parasites usually start showing up on the body of
the fish before death and are easily seen. Velvet disease is another one that
behaves this way, and it's harder to detect on the body (it looks sort of like a
haze on the fish). Both of these will spread to other fish without an
intermediate host.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Mike Kelly]

The Pseodochromis apparently has velvet. Now the Flame angel has fin rot,
all from one freakin fish (now deceased). It's going to be about impossible
to carch these guys. If I blast the tank with erythromycin, would the whole
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle start again? (80 gallons, 70 lbs live rock, 4
inches of substrate)

Meanwhile, I'll check the LFS's for a trap or something.


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:rxdAf.61$Le2.60@trnddc04...
> Mike Kelly wrote:
>
>> Before he died he was doing that "scratchy" thing that you might see fish
>> do in a tank with high ammonia, where they might scratch the side of
>> their heads against a rock or whatever.
>
> This usually indicates some sort of parasite of the gills. If there's no
> external evidence, it's probably gill flukes. Fortunately, most of these
> require a secondary host (usually a snail of some sort) to reproduce. If
> you don't have the secondary host in the tank, they will die out.
>
> Ick also does this, but the parasites usually start showing up on the body
> of the fish before death and are easily seen. Velvet disease is another
> one that behaves this way, and it's harder to detect on the body (it looks
> sort of like a haze on the fish). Both of these will spread to other fish
> without an intermediate host.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[Mike Kelly]

Typo below. "carch" should be "catch". Thanks, Mike
"Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
...
> The Pseodochromis apparently has velvet. Now the Flame angel has fin rot,
> all from one freakin fish (now deceased). It's going to be about
> impossible to carch these guys. If I blast the tank with erythromycin,
> would the whole ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle start again? (80 gallons, 70
> lbs live rock, 4 inches of substrate)
>
> Meanwhile, I'll check the LFS's for a trap or something.
>
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:rxdAf.61$Le2.60@trnddc04...
>> Mike Kelly wrote:
>>
>>> Before he died he was doing that "scratchy" thing that you might see
>>> fish do in a tank with high ammonia, where they might scratch the side
>>> of their heads against a rock or whatever.
>>
>> This usually indicates some sort of parasite of the gills. If there's no
>> external evidence, it's probably gill flukes. Fortunately, most of these
>> require a secondary host (usually a snail of some sort) to reproduce. If
>> you don't have the secondary host in the tank, they will die out.
>>
>> Ick also does this, but the parasites usually start showing up on the
>> body of the fish before death and are easily seen. Velvet disease is
>> another one that behaves this way, and it's harder to detect on the body
>> (it looks sort of like a haze on the fish). Both of these will spread to
>> other fish without an intermediate host.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
>> to
>> your slightly older self.
>
>

[Mark Henry]

Mike Kelly wrote:
>
> If I blast the tank with erythromycin, would the whole
> ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle start again? (80 gallons,
> 70 lbs live rock, 4 inches of substrate)
>

Yes - you'll kill pretty much all the biologocals living in your tank.
Hence the preference for a seperate fish hospital or quarantine tank.

If you can't find a trap of figure out another way to catch them my
suggestion would be to get a 30 gallon tub and drain some of your tank
water into it. Once the temp is stable move your rock into it. That
should make it easier to catch your fish. After the fish are caught move
the rock back to the tank and dump the water from the tub (you'll have
to make new water).

mark h

[George Patterson]

Mike Kelly wrote:
> If I blast the tank with erythromycin, would the whole
> ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle start again?

Yep. Sorry to say this, but the best thing you can do at this point is probably
to let the fish die and wait a two months before adding another. Quarantee
future additions so that you can treat them for disease before adding them to
your main tank.

Here's something you might try. Take a clean bottle with a neck large enough for
your fish to enter easily. The next time you feed the fish, place the food in
the bottle and submerge it. If the fish goes into the bottle and you can get a
net over the opening fast enough, you can get it out.

Good luck.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Mike Kelly]

I'll try to get them into the quarantine tank if I can, without tearing the
big tank apart.

Has anybody in the group ever used MelaFix for anything? Would it be better
or worse than erythromycin for fin rot? Better in conjunction with
Erythromycin, or not at all?

thanks, Mike
"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:kqaBf.3713$Ez3.3239@trnddc03...
> Mike Kelly wrote:
>> If I blast the tank with erythromycin, would the whole
>> ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle start again?
>
> Yep. Sorry to say this, but the best thing you can do at this point is
> probably to let the fish die and wait a two months before adding another.
> Quarantee future additions so that you can treat them for disease before
> adding them to your main tank.
>
> Here's something you might try. Take a clean bottle with a neck large
> enough for your fish to enter easily. The next time you feed the fish,
> place the food in the bottle and submerge it. If the fish goes into the
> bottle and you can get a net over the opening fast enough, you can get it
> out.
>
> Good luck.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[Roy]

There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
/won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
meds.

I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...

I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.

I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Mike Kelly]

Thanks. This answers the whole Melafix thing. Does anyone know about PP and
sal****er? Can it be done

Thanks, Mike (desparately trying not to tear the tank apart)
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
> meds.
>
> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
>
> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
>
> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[miskairal]

Awesome!
Thankyou for this info Roy as I have freshwater fish as well and in Oz
we can't buy antibiotics for fish. When I was nursing we used it a lot
in baths for kids with infected sores (usually from scabies). Personally
I prefer to avoid antibiotics anyway.

Would you allow me to reproduce this post of yours at guppylog.com which
I visit frequently? We have often discussed the use of melafix and
potassium permanganate but none of us have anything near as conclusive
as your info.

Could you also tell us how you used the pp? ie. what strength did you
make it, how often did you add it etc. With the kids baths we used to
make the water pink, not purple, and bathe them twice a day.

Ditto to Mike's question - can it be used in a salt water setup?

Thanks again
miskairal


Roy wrote:
> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
> meds.
>
> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
>
> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
>
> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...

[Roy]

I have never seen mention of PP in any of the sal****er forums. I
mention PP to my frieind that owns a LFS and he shudders. He has a lot
of experieince with livestock and has a natural pond that had
problems, and it was recomended by biologists to hit it with
PP.............and he messed up......needless to say what the outcome
was. I use PP 2 x a year on both my ponds as a prophylactic...I
oxidize them late fall, and early spring.......and I use it whenever
needed on most of my tropicals in tanks etc........So far knock on
wood have not had any sal****er health issues. Prophylactic doseing
with PP has made a big improvement in my natural ponds water quality
and fish health since I started doing it. Its good at reducing any
nutrients so it helps with algae blooms and rich water which also has
an effect overall on my ponds fish health caused by these conditions,
mainly ulcers, fungal and fin / tail/mouth rot etc... One pond is 1.68
million gallons and the other is a bit over 2.9 million gallons so I
do consume quite a few pounds of PP every year on just prophylactic
stuff. It may be hard top get in your country though as here in the
USA its watched by the DEA and BATF folks pretty close and you need a
permit and compliance papers to buy any large quanities. I use
Technical grade. PP is al;so in big demand by the back yard drug
makers, and it can also be used as an oxidizer in making homebrew
explosives so since 9/11 it gets pretty close scrutinization. However
its stll available in small quanities at exhorborant prices. Doc
Johnson the world reknown koi vet gets $25 for a 3 ounce
container.....I buy 55 pound pails for $48..

To determine the amount I need I use the standard recomended dose, but
test a water sample first with a few different dosses. This is called
a demand test, which consists of a given amount of water with X amount
of PP added, and then wait and see how long the color lasts, and make
my final decision as to the dosage rate from the demand test results.
Object of the ordeal is to maintain the purple/pink color in the water
for a minimum of 6 hours and no more than 8. However its also possible
to give a fish a short term bath/dip in a somewhat stronger than
normal solution of PP as well.......But its use in SW has gone
unanswered for me to......I just may have to email a friend at the
University of Florida that works the fish biology section and see what
he can find out... If any place would know, thr U of F certainly will.
The damsels thelocal petco sells are infested with fin and tail rot
problems and various other diseases, and they are cheap enough to try
it on if its useable in SW......what I would do with damsels
afterwards would be my big problem........not a big fan of them by any
means.

You can use anything I post, its no problem with me.......I tried to
do my experiment as close and equal across the board as I could.
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:19:55 +1000, miskairal <mehiding@Oz> wrote:
>><>Awesome!
>><>Thankyou for this info Roy as I have freshwater fish as well and in Oz
>><>we can't buy antibiotics for fish. When I was nursing we used it a lot
>><>in baths for kids with infected sores (usually from scabies). Personally
>><>I prefer to avoid antibiotics anyway.
>><>
>><>Would you allow me to reproduce this post of yours at guppylog.com which
>><>I visit frequently? We have often discussed the use of melafix and
>><>potassium permanganate but none of us have anything near as conclusive
>><>as your info.
>><>
>><>Could you also tell us how you used the pp? ie. what strength did you
>><>make it, how often did you add it etc. With the kids baths we used to
>><>make the water pink, not purple, and bathe them twice a day.
>><>
>><>Ditto to Mike's question - can it be used in a salt water setup?
>><>
>><>Thanks again
>><>miskairal
>><>
>><>
>><>Roy wrote:
>><>> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
>><>> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
>><>> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
>><>> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
>><>> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
>><>> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
>><>> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
>><>> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
>><>> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
>><>> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
>><>> meds.
>><>>
>><>> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
>><>> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
>><>> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
>><>> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
>><>> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
>><>> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
>><>> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
>><>>
>><>> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
>><>> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
>><>> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
>><>> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
>><>> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
>><>> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
>><>> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
>><>> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
>><>> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
>><>> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
>><>> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
>><>> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
>><>> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
>><>> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
>><>> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
>><>> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
>><>> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
>><>> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
>><>> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
>><>> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
>><>> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
>><>> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
>><>>
>><>> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
>><>> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
>><>> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
>><>> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
>><>> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
>><>> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
>><>> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
>><>> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
>><>> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
>><>> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
>><>> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
>><>> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
>><>> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
>><>> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
>><>> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
>><>> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Wayne Sallee]

That was a nice experiment. It's always good to see
experiments like that. It's been *many* years since I've
used pp in tanks. I'm not big on dumping medecins in the
tank. One nice thing about pp is that you are left with
just potasium, wich is quite natural and nontoxic, though
it does stain brown. People often use a medicine, and the
fish get better, but it's not known how much the medicine
actualy worked. PP has been used in reef tanks in low
doses to oxidize nutrients, but I don't recall anyone
using it in reef tanks for medicinal purposes. One sorce
for pp is the companies that sell whole house water
purfification systems that use pp, such as Culligan.
The use of pp in aquariums has been around for many many
years, but it's never realy become popular.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Roy wrote on 1/24/2006 8:25 AM:
> I have never seen mention of PP in any of the sal****er forums. I
> mention PP to my frieind that owns a LFS and he shudders. He has a lot
> of experieince with livestock and has a natural pond that had
> problems, and it was recomended by biologists to hit it with
> PP.............and he messed up......needless to say what the outcome
> was. I use PP 2 x a year on both my ponds as a prophylactic...I
> oxidize them late fall, and early spring.......and I use it whenever
> needed on most of my tropicals in tanks etc........So far knock on
> wood have not had any sal****er health issues. Prophylactic doseing
> with PP has made a big improvement in my natural ponds water quality
> and fish health since I started doing it. Its good at reducing any
> nutrients so it helps with algae blooms and rich water which also has
> an effect overall on my ponds fish health caused by these conditions,
> mainly ulcers, fungal and fin / tail/mouth rot etc... One pond is 1.68
> million gallons and the other is a bit over 2.9 million gallons so I
> do consume quite a few pounds of PP every year on just prophylactic
> stuff. It may be hard top get in your country though as here in the
> USA its watched by the DEA and BATF folks pretty close and you need a
> permit and compliance papers to buy any large quanities. I use
> Technical grade. PP is al;so in big demand by the back yard drug
> makers, and it can also be used as an oxidizer in making homebrew
> explosives so since 9/11 it gets pretty close scrutinization. However
> its stll available in small quanities at exhorborant prices. Doc
> Johnson the world reknown koi vet gets $25 for a 3 ounce
> container.....I buy 55 pound pails for $48..
>
> To determine the amount I need I use the standard recomended dose, but
> test a water sample first with a few different dosses. This is called
> a demand test, which consists of a given amount of water with X amount
> of PP added, and then wait and see how long the color lasts, and make
> my final decision as to the dosage rate from the demand test results.
> Object of the ordeal is to maintain the purple/pink color in the water
> for a minimum of 6 hours and no more than 8. However its also possible
> to give a fish a short term bath/dip in a somewhat stronger than
> normal solution of PP as well.......But its use in SW has gone
> unanswered for me to......I just may have to email a friend at the
> University of Florida that works the fish biology section and see what
> he can find out... If any place would know, thr U of F certainly will.
> The damsels thelocal petco sells are infested with fin and tail rot
> problems and various other diseases, and they are cheap enough to try
> it on if its useable in SW......what I would do with damsels
> afterwards would be my big problem........not a big fan of them by any
> means.
>
> You can use anything I post, its no problem with me.......I tried to
> do my experiment as close and equal across the board as I could.
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:19:55 +1000, miskairal <mehiding@Oz> wrote:
>
>>><>Awesome!
>>><>Thankyou for this info Roy as I have freshwater fish as well and in Oz
>>><>we can't buy antibiotics for fish. When I was nursing we used it a lot
>>><>in baths for kids with infected sores (usually from scabies). Personally
>>><>I prefer to avoid antibiotics anyway.
>>><>
>>><>Would you allow me to reproduce this post of yours at guppylog.com which
>>><>I visit frequently? We have often discussed the use of melafix and
>>><>potassium permanganate but none of us have anything near as conclusive
>>><>as your info.
>>><>
>>><>Could you also tell us how you used the pp? ie. what strength did you
>>><>make it, how often did you add it etc. With the kids baths we used to
>>><>make the water pink, not purple, and bathe them twice a day.
>>><>
>>><>Ditto to Mike's question - can it be used in a salt water setup?
>>><>
>>><>Thanks again
>>><>miskairal
>>><>
>>><>
>>><>Roy wrote:
>>><>> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
>>><>> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
>>><>> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
>>><>> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
>>><>> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
>>><>> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
>>><>> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
>>><>> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
>>><>> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
>>><>> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
>>><>> meds.
>>><>>
>>><>> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
>>><>> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
>>><>> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
>>><>> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
>>><>> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
>>><>> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
>>><>> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
>>><>>
>>><>> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
>>><>> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
>>><>> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
>>><>> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
>>><>> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
>>><>> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
>>><>> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
>>><>> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
>>><>> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
>>><>> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
>>><>> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
>>><>> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
>>><>> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
>>><>> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
>>><>> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
>>><>> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
>>><>> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
>>><>> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
>>><>> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
>>><>> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
>>><>> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
>>><>> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
>>><>>
>>><>> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
>>><>> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
>>><>> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
>>><>> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
>>><>> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
>>><>> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
>>><>> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
>>><>> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
>>><>> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
>>><>> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
>>><>> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
>>><>> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
>>><>> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
>>><>> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
>>><>> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
>>><>> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...
>
>

[Roy]

PP is not really classed as a medicine. Its just a super strong
oxidizer that most fish and other things can tolerate. Bleach is also
a good oxidizer but not much can tolerate it, at least the things you
do not wish to harm. For the ost part, PP just does away with any
nasties and lets the fishes own immune system take over without having
to work overtime to get over the hump.

Biggest mistake most folks make with it is not figuring out the
correct water capacty and amount of PP needed to do the job. Talk
about the pucker factor was when I took on doseing my first pond, and
trying to come up with its capacity. Its not a given shape, and varies
considerably, and even just a rain or dry spell changes all my
figures. Onc eyou starat and have it dosed its all over but the
waiting....as its impossible to counteract the PP due to $$$$ costs it
wold take to treat the amount of water in them, but you can use
hydrogen peroixde or most any water conditioner to couter a PP
treatment going south on you in smaller envirionments. Even the pros
have been know to screw up using it like Doc Johnson, who overdosed
and wiped out many thousands of dollars worth of champion koi....
..
I may just get a pico sized tank setup and cylced with LS/LR and a
mushroom or two and some other cheap or fragged items of things I have
and introduce a typical Petco Damsel to it and see what happens.

The brown stain is a result of all the unwated junk being
oxidized....it will dissapear with time or extra filtration, or by
using hydrogen peroxide or water conditioner after the 6 to 8 hour
time frame has elapsed. It gets to be some really nasty looking stuff
during that time frame though and gets your mind to thinking did I do
the right thing......It reminds you of what the inside of a full
septic tank would look like .thick nasty "skimtimate looking junk,
lots of foamy brown/black scum and bubbles. I had 50 watt submersible
lights in 12 inches of water in one area and they were not able to be
seen for about 2 days afterwards. After a treatment its readily
apparent which fish may have had a fungus you did not notice or some
other problem as there will be brown stained areas on its
body........Some colors of fish in a large natural pond are just hard
to get a close look at, but there is no second guessing once its dosed
with PP and yu see the brown spots showing. So let me see what I can
dig up on useing PP in sw and start to setup a small tank...yet
something else to fool with. I know the fish can be caught and placed
in a QT setup and you would not have to worry about inverts, corals
etc, but I am also interested in seeing if it has any adverse effects
on them as well, and what it may do to any pods, beneficial bacteria
etc etc, which antibiotic and other meds seem to wipe out in the
coarse of treatment.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:21 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
wrote:
>><>That was a nice experiment. It's always good to see
>><>experiments like that. It's been *many* years since I've
>><>used pp in tanks. I'm not big on dumping medecins in the
>><>tank. One nice thing about pp is that you are left with
>><>just potasium, wich is quite natural and nontoxic, though
>><>it does stain brown. People often use a medicine, and the
>><>fish get better, but it's not known how much the medicine
>><>actualy worked. PP has been used in reef tanks in low
>><>doses to oxidize nutrients, but I don't recall anyone
>><>using it in reef tanks for medicinal purposes. One sorce
>><>for pp is the companies that sell whole house water
>><>purfification systems that use pp, such as Culligan.
>><>The use of pp in aquariums has been around for many many
>><>years, but it's never realy become popular.
>><>
>><>Wayne Sallee
>><>Wayne's Pets

>><>
>><>
>><>Roy wrote on 1/24/2006 8:25 AM:
>><>> I have never seen mention of PP in any of the sal****er forums. I
>><>> mention PP to my frieind that owns a LFS and he shudders. He has a lot
>><>> of experieince with livestock and has a natural pond that had
>><>> problems, and it was recomended by biologists to hit it with
>><>> PP.............and he messed up......needless to say what the outcome
>><>> was. I use PP 2 x a year on both my ponds as a prophylactic...I
>><>> oxidize them late fall, and early spring.......and I use it whenever
>><>> needed on most of my tropicals in tanks etc........So far knock on
>><>> wood have not had any sal****er health issues. Prophylactic doseing
>><>> with PP has made a big improvement in my natural ponds water quality
>><>> and fish health since I started doing it. Its good at reducing any
>><>> nutrients so it helps with algae blooms and rich water which also has
>><>> an effect overall on my ponds fish health caused by these conditions,
>><>> mainly ulcers, fungal and fin / tail/mouth rot etc... One pond is 1.68
>><>> million gallons and the other is a bit over 2.9 million gallons so I
>><>> do consume quite a few pounds of PP every year on just prophylactic
>><>> stuff. It may be hard top get in your country though as here in the
>><>> USA its watched by the DEA and BATF folks pretty close and you need a
>><>> permit and compliance papers to buy any large quanities. I use
>><>> Technical grade. PP is al;so in big demand by the back yard drug
>><>> makers, and it can also be used as an oxidizer in making homebrew
>><>> explosives so since 9/11 it gets pretty close scrutinization. However
>><>> its stll available in small quanities at exhorborant prices. Doc
>><>> Johnson the world reknown koi vet gets $25 for a 3 ounce
>><>> container.....I buy 55 pound pails for $48..
>><>>
>><>> To determine the amount I need I use the standard recomended dose, but
>><>> test a water sample first with a few different dosses. This is called
>><>> a demand test, which consists of a given amount of water with X amount
>><>> of PP added, and then wait and see how long the color lasts, and make
>><>> my final decision as to the dosage rate from the demand test results.
>><>> Object of the ordeal is to maintain the purple/pink color in the water
>><>> for a minimum of 6 hours and no more than 8. However its also possible
>><>> to give a fish a short term bath/dip in a somewhat stronger than
>><>> normal solution of PP as well.......But its use in SW has gone
>><>> unanswered for me to......I just may have to email a friend at the
>><>> University of Florida that works the fish biology section and see what
>><>> he can find out... If any place would know, thr U of F certainly will.
>><>> The damsels thelocal petco sells are infested with fin and tail rot
>><>> problems and various other diseases, and they are cheap enough to try
>><>> it on if its useable in SW......what I would do with damsels
>><>> afterwards would be my big problem........not a big fan of them by any
>><>> means.
>><>>
>><>> You can use anything I post, its no problem with me.......I tried to
>><>> do my experiment as close and equal across the board as I could.
>><>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:19:55 +1000, miskairal <mehiding@Oz> wrote:
>><>>
>><>>>><>Awesome!
>><>>>><>Thankyou for this info Roy as I have freshwater fish as well and in Oz
>><>>>><>we can't buy antibiotics for fish. When I was nursing we used it a lot
>><>>>><>in baths for kids with infected sores (usually from scabies). Personally
>><>>>><>I prefer to avoid antibiotics anyway.
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>Would you allow me to reproduce this post of yours at guppylog.com which
>><>>>><>I visit frequently? We have often discussed the use of melafix and
>><>>>><>potassium permanganate but none of us have anything near as conclusive
>><>>>><>as your info.
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>Could you also tell us how you used the pp? ie. what strength did you
>><>>>><>make it, how often did you add it etc. With the kids baths we used to
>><>>>><>make the water pink, not purple, and bathe them twice a day.
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>Ditto to Mike's question - can it be used in a salt water setup?
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>Thanks again
>><>>>><>miskairal
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>Roy wrote:
>><>>>><>> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
>><>>>><>> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
>><>>>><>> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
>><>>>><>> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
>><>>>><>> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
>><>>>><>> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
>><>>>><>> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
>><>>>><>> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
>><>>>><>> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
>><>>>><>> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
>><>>>><>> meds.
>><>>>><>>
>><>>>><>> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
>><>>>><>> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
>><>>>><>> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
>><>>>><>> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
>><>>>><>> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
>><>>>><>> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
>><>>>><>> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
>><>>>><>>
>><>>>><>> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
>><>>>><>> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
>><>>>><>> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
>><>>>><>> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
>><>>>><>> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
>><>>>><>> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
>><>>>><>> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
>><>>>><>> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
>><>>>><>> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
>><>>>><>> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
>><>>>><>> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
>><>>>><>> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
>><>>>><>> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
>><>>>><>> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
>><>>>><>> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
>><>>>><>> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
>><>>>><>> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
>><>>>><>> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
>><>>>><>> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
>><>>>><>> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
>><>>>><>> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
>><>>>><>> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
>><>>>><>>
>><>>>><>> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
>><>>>><>> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
>><>>>><>> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
>><>>>><>> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
>><>>>><>> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
>><>>>><>> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
>><>>>><>> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
>><>>>><>> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
>><>>>><>> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
>><>>>><>> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
>><>>>><>> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
>><>>>><>> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
>><>>>><>> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
>><>>>><>> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
>><>>>><>> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
>><>>>><>> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...
>><>>
>><>>

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[miskairal]

Can you give me any idea of the dose rate to start with though Roy as
the only bottles of pp I've seen here (many years ago now) had precious
little on the labelling?

Roy wrote:
> PP is not really classed as a medicine. Its just a super strong
> oxidizer that most fish and other things can tolerate. Bleach is also
> a good oxidizer but not much can tolerate it, at least the things you
> do not wish to harm. For the ost part, PP just does away with any
> nasties and lets the fishes own immune system take over without having
> to work overtime to get over the hump.
>
> Biggest mistake most folks make with it is not figuring out the
> correct water capacty and amount of PP needed to do the job. Talk
> about the pucker factor was when I took on doseing my first pond, and
> trying to come up with its capacity. Its not a given shape, and varies
> considerably, and even just a rain or dry spell changes all my
> figures. Onc eyou starat and have it dosed its all over but the
> waiting....as its impossible to counteract the PP due to $$$$ costs it
> wold take to treat the amount of water in them, but you can use
> hydrogen peroixde or most any water conditioner to couter a PP
> treatment going south on you in smaller envirionments. Even the pros
> have been know to screw up using it like Doc Johnson, who overdosed
> and wiped out many thousands of dollars worth of champion koi....
> .
> I may just get a pico sized tank setup and cylced with LS/LR and a
> mushroom or two and some other cheap or fragged items of things I have
> and introduce a typical Petco Damsel to it and see what happens.
>
> The brown stain is a result of all the unwated junk being
> oxidized....it will dissapear with time or extra filtration, or by
> using hydrogen peroxide or water conditioner after the 6 to 8 hour
> time frame has elapsed. It gets to be some really nasty looking stuff
> during that time frame though and gets your mind to thinking did I do
> the right thing......It reminds you of what the inside of a full
> septic tank would look like .thick nasty "skimtimate looking junk,
> lots of foamy brown/black scum and bubbles. I had 50 watt submersible
> lights in 12 inches of water in one area and they were not able to be
> seen for about 2 days afterwards. After a treatment its readily
> apparent which fish may have had a fungus you did not notice or some
> other problem as there will be brown stained areas on its
> body........Some colors of fish in a large natural pond are just hard
> to get a close look at, but there is no second guessing once its dosed
> with PP and yu see the brown spots showing. So let me see what I can
> dig up on useing PP in sw and start to setup a small tank...yet
> something else to fool with. I know the fish can be caught and placed
> in a QT setup and you would not have to worry about inverts, corals
> etc, but I am also interested in seeing if it has any adverse effects
> on them as well, and what it may do to any pods, beneficial bacteria
> etc etc, which antibiotic and other meds seem to wipe out in the
> coarse of treatment.
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:21 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
> wrote:
>
>>><>That was a nice experiment. It's always good to see
>>><>experiments like that. It's been *many* years since I've
>>><>used pp in tanks. I'm not big on dumping medecins in the
>>><>tank. One nice thing about pp is that you are left with
>>><>just potasium, wich is quite natural and nontoxic, though
>>><>it does stain brown. People often use a medicine, and the
>>><>fish get better, but it's not known how much the medicine
>>><>actualy worked. PP has been used in reef tanks in low
>>><>doses to oxidize nutrients, but I don't recall anyone
>>><>using it in reef tanks for medicinal purposes. One sorce
>>><>for pp is the companies that sell whole house water
>>><>purfification systems that use pp, such as Culligan.
>>><>The use of pp in aquariums has been around for many many
>>><>years, but it's never realy become popular.
>>><>
>>><>Wayne Sallee
>>><>Wayne's Pets

>>><>
>>><>
>>><>Roy wrote on 1/24/2006 8:25 AM:
>>><>> I have never seen mention of PP in any of the sal****er forums. I
>>><>> mention PP to my frieind that owns a LFS and he shudders. He has a lot
>>><>> of experieince with livestock and has a natural pond that had
>>><>> problems, and it was recomended by biologists to hit it with
>>><>> PP.............and he messed up......needless to say what the outcome
>>><>> was. I use PP 2 x a year on both my ponds as a prophylactic...I
>>><>> oxidize them late fall, and early spring.......and I use it whenever
>>><>> needed on most of my tropicals in tanks etc........So far knock on
>>><>> wood have not had any sal****er health issues. Prophylactic doseing
>>><>> with PP has made a big improvement in my natural ponds water quality
>>><>> and fish health since I started doing it. Its good at reducing any
>>><>> nutrients so it helps with algae blooms and rich water which also has
>>><>> an effect overall on my ponds fish health caused by these conditions,
>>><>> mainly ulcers, fungal and fin / tail/mouth rot etc... One pond is 1.68
>>><>> million gallons and the other is a bit over 2.9 million gallons so I
>>><>> do consume quite a few pounds of PP every year on just prophylactic
>>><>> stuff. It may be hard top get in your country though as here in the
>>><>> USA its watched by the DEA and BATF folks pretty close and you need a
>>><>> permit and compliance papers to buy any large quanities. I use
>>><>> Technical grade. PP is al;so in big demand by the back yard drug
>>><>> makers, and it can also be used as an oxidizer in making homebrew
>>><>> explosives so since 9/11 it gets pretty close scrutinization. However
>>><>> its stll available in small quanities at exhorborant prices. Doc
>>><>> Johnson the world reknown koi vet gets $25 for a 3 ounce
>>><>> container.....I buy 55 pound pails for $48..
>>><>>
>>><>> To determine the amount I need I use the standard recomended dose, but
>>><>> test a water sample first with a few different dosses. This is called
>>><>> a demand test, which consists of a given amount of water with X amount
>>><>> of PP added, and then wait and see how long the color lasts, and make
>>><>> my final decision as to the dosage rate from the demand test results.
>>><>> Object of the ordeal is to maintain the purple/pink color in the water
>>><>> for a minimum of 6 hours and no more than 8. However its also possible
>>><>> to give a fish a short term bath/dip in a somewhat stronger than
>>><>> normal solution of PP as well.......But its use in SW has gone
>>><>> unanswered for me to......I just may have to email a friend at the
>>><>> University of Florida that works the fish biology section and see what
>>><>> he can find out... If any place would know, thr U of F certainly will.
>>><>> The damsels thelocal petco sells are infested with fin and tail rot
>>><>> problems and various other diseases, and they are cheap enough to try
>>><>> it on if its useable in SW......what I would do with damsels
>>><>> afterwards would be my big problem........not a big fan of them by any
>>><>> means.
>>><>>
>>><>> You can use anything I post, its no problem with me.......I tried to
>>><>> do my experiment as close and equal across the board as I could.
>>><>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:19:55 +1000, miskairal <mehiding@Oz> wrote:
>>><>>
>>><>>>><>Awesome!
>>><>>>><>Thankyou for this info Roy as I have freshwater fish as well and in Oz
>>><>>>><>we can't buy antibiotics for fish. When I was nursing we used it a lot
>>><>>>><>in baths for kids with infected sores (usually from scabies). Personally
>>><>>>><>I prefer to avoid antibiotics anyway.
>>><>>>><>
>>><>>>><>Would you allow me to reproduce this post of yours at guppylog.com which
>>><>>>><>I visit frequently? We have often discussed the use of melafix and
>>><>>>><>potassium permanganate but none of us have anything near as conclusive
>>><>>>><>as your info.
>>><>>>><>
>>><>>>><>Could you also tell us how you used the pp? ie. what strength did you
>>><>>>><>make it, how often did you add it etc. With the kids baths we used to
>>><>>>><>make the water pink, not purple, and bathe them twice a day.
>>><>>>><>
>>><>>>><>Ditto to Mike's question - can it be used in a salt water setup?
>>><>>>><>
>>><>>>><>Thanks again
>>><>>>><>miskairal
>>><>>>><>
>>><>>>><>
>>><>>>><>Roy wrote:
>>><>>>><>> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
>>><>>>><>> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
>>><>>>><>> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
>>><>>>><>> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
>>><>>>><>> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
>>><>>>><>> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
>>><>>>><>> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
>>><>>>><>> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
>>><>>>><>> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
>>><>>>><>> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
>>><>>>><>> meds.
>>><>>>><>>
>>><>>>><>> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
>>><>>>><>> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
>>><>>>><>> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
>>><>>>><>> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
>>><>>>><>> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
>>><>>>><>> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
>>><>>>><>> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
>>><>>>><>>
>>><>>>><>> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
>>><>>>><>> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
>>><>>>><>> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
>>><>>>><>> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
>>><>>>><>> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
>>><>>>><>> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
>>><>>>><>> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
>>><>>>><>> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
>>><>>>><>> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
>>><>>>><>> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
>>><>>>><>> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
>>><>>>><>> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
>>><>>>><>> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
>>><>>>><>> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
>>><>>>><>> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
>>><>>>><>> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
>>><>>>><>> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
>>><>>>><>> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
>>><>>>><>> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
>>><>>>><>> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
>>><>>>><>> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
>>><>>>><>> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
>>><>>>><>>
>>><>>>><>> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
>>><>>>><>> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
>>><>>>><>> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
>>><>>>><>> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
>>><>>>><>> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
>>><>>>><>> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
>>><>>>><>> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
>>><>>>><>> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
>>><>>>><>> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
>>><>>>><>> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
>>><>>>><>> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
>>><>>>><>> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
>>><>>>><>> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
>>><>>>><>> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
>>><>>>><>> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
>>><>>>><>> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...
>>><>>
>>><>>
>
>

[Roy]

A start would be the initial risk....but here goes.
Right from the folks at the U of F....
For most fish, potassium permanganate can be administered at a
concentration of 2 mg/L as a long-term bath (four-hour minimum) in
fresh water or salt water systems. Potassium permanganate is also
reasonably safe to use in recirculating systems and has minimal impact
on biofilters when used at 2 mg/L. Treated water should retain the
purple coloration for at least four hours.

I shoot for 6 hours minimum and 8 hours max for color retention.

For a treatment rate of 2 mg/L, this formula would be:


Grams of Chemical = Gallons Treated × 0.0038 × 2 mg/LTherefore, to
treat a 250-gallon vat, the grams of potassium permanganate needed are
as depicted below:


Grams needed = (250 gal) × (0.0038) × (2 mg/L) = 1.9 gramsAn
inexpensive gram scale can be obtained by purchasing a dietary scale
at your local grocery store or pharmacy. One level teaspoon of
potassium permanganate weighs about 7.0 grams.

Or better yet make a stock solution up as such for small systems:
A stock solution is a concentrated solution of chemical from which
small amounts can be taken to treat tanks as needed. This is useful
when either multiple tanks or multiple treatments are needed. An easy
way to make up a stock solution for potassium permanganate is to
purchase a one-gallon bottle of distilled water, weigh 285 grams of
potassium permanganate, add it to the solution, and mix thoroughly.
This stock solution will deliver a dose of 1 mg/L when delivered at a
rate of one drop per gallon. Therefore, to achieve the desired
concentration of 2 mg/L, the stock solution can be delivered at a rate
of two drops per gallon. The stock solution should be stored in a
cool, dark area and be replaced annually.
When treating larger systems, it is useful to remember that 20 drops
are equal to 1 milliliter (ml), or one cubic centimeter (cc) if
measuring the liquid with a syringe. Therefore, 1 ml of stock solution
will treat ten gallons of water with a concentration of 2 mg/L.

Itys best to store mixed stock solution in a dark or opaque container
in a cool out of the light area away from any hydrocarbons just ncase
it leaks. I store my stock in white plastic gal jugs in a sealed (snap
on lid) plastic 5 gal bucket.

And as a side note to goat keepers. I had a proboem with one doe that
used to have a fungal infection on lower legs and hoofs and after
numerous trips to vet and constant daily foot baths and much $$$ and
no results, I decided to either put her down or see what PP may do. I
gave her 3 days worth of treatments which consisted of a 1 hour stand
in a PP bath......with no rinseing afterwards. Retaining a goat in
any liquid is a chore in itself. Within 1 week after initiala
treatment her legs and hoofs looked better than any treatment i paid
for did. Within 3 weeks all sores and infections were totally on the
road to being gone and she started to regrow hair..She made a full
complete recovery and is still doing fine.... Sorry about OT and goats
being treated, but PP is some good stuff if used right.....and it
works wonders on most fungal type problems. May not be the best choice
for Ich due to cost, but it still is a viable method of erradicating
ich. Potassium permanganate will kill bacterial, fungal and many
parasitic agents, but it is not viricide.

To do a demand test:
You can use this method to estimate the amount of potassium
permanganate required for effective treatment This method will.
determine the potassium permanganate demand or amount of chemical
required to react with all the organic matter in a water sample. This
procedure measures the 15-minute demand. This value is then multiplied
by 2 to give the recommended treatment rate. The 15-minute demand is
determined as follows:

Prepare a 1,000 mg/L stock solution by adding 1,000 milligrams or 1
gram of potassium permanganate to 1 liter of distilled water and mix
thoroughly.
1. Collect five 1-liter samples of the subject water.
2. Prepare a series of test treatments. Add 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10
milliliters (mL) of the stock solution (prepared in Step 1) into the
five 1-liter samples. Mix thoroughly.
3. Wait 15 minutes.
4. The test treatment that has the slightest faint pink color after 15
minutes is the correct 15-minute potassium permanganate demand. If
there is a question as to which rate has a faint pink color, choose
the lower treatment rate.
5. Multiply the 15-minute demand treatment by 2 to get the proper
treatment rate for the pond.


If in doubt go with the lowest dose rate and monitor fish closely.
Average common dose is 2ppm

Don't forget, all fish types have different levels of tolerance.




--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[miskairal]

Oh man you are a champion!! Thanks for all the info.

Wished I'd thought to try the PP on my goats before spending thousands
and still ending up having to get the vet to amputate a few. And yes, I
know what you mean about the goats and water/rain - bad, bad, bad
combination.

My husband used to feed our chooks "condys crystals" water if there were
any problems with them and it always fixed them. He'd make it up quite
purple, nothign scientific or accurate about measurements. We dont' have
chooks any more thank goodness - goat poo is more tolerable than chook
poo and fish poo is even better :)

Roy wrote:
> A start would be the initial risk....but here goes.
> Right from the folks at the U of F....
> For most fish, potassium permanganate can be administered at a
> concentration of 2 mg/L as a long-term bath (four-hour minimum) in
> fresh water or salt water systems. Potassium permanganate is also
> reasonably safe to use in recirculating systems and has minimal impact
> on biofilters when used at 2 mg/L. Treated water should retain the
> purple coloration for at least four hours.
>
> I shoot for 6 hours minimum and 8 hours max for color retention.
>
> For a treatment rate of 2 mg/L, this formula would be:
>
>
> Grams of Chemical = Gallons Treated × 0.0038 × 2 mg/LTherefore, to
> treat a 250-gallon vat, the grams of potassium permanganate needed are
> as depicted below:
>
>
> Grams needed = (250 gal) × (0.0038) × (2 mg/L) = 1.9 gramsAn
> inexpensive gram scale can be obtained by purchasing a dietary scale
> at your local grocery store or pharmacy. One level teaspoon of
> potassium permanganate weighs about 7.0 grams.
>
> Or better yet make a stock solution up as such for small systems:
> A stock solution is a concentrated solution of chemical from which
> small amounts can be taken to treat tanks as needed. This is useful
> when either multiple tanks or multiple treatments are needed. An easy
> way to make up a stock solution for potassium permanganate is to
> purchase a one-gallon bottle of distilled water, weigh 285 grams of
> potassium permanganate, add it to the solution, and mix thoroughly.
> This stock solution will deliver a dose of 1 mg/L when delivered at a
> rate of one drop per gallon. Therefore, to achieve the desired
> concentration of 2 mg/L, the stock solution can be delivered at a rate
> of two drops per gallon. The stock solution should be stored in a
> cool, dark area and be replaced annually.
> When treating larger systems, it is useful to remember that 20 drops
> are equal to 1 milliliter (ml), or one cubic centimeter (cc) if
> measuring the liquid with a syringe. Therefore, 1 ml of stock solution
> will treat ten gallons of water with a concentration of 2 mg/L.
>
> Itys best to store mixed stock solution in a dark or opaque container
> in a cool out of the light area away from any hydrocarbons just ncase
> it leaks. I store my stock in white plastic gal jugs in a sealed (snap
> on lid) plastic 5 gal bucket.
>
> And as a side note to goat keepers. I had a proboem with one doe that
> used to have a fungal infection on lower legs and hoofs and after
> numerous trips to vet and constant daily foot baths and much $$$ and
> no results, I decided to either put her down or see what PP may do. I
> gave her 3 days worth of treatments which consisted of a 1 hour stand
> in a PP bath......with no rinseing afterwards. Retaining a goat in
> any liquid is a chore in itself. Within 1 week after initiala
> treatment her legs and hoofs looked better than any treatment i paid
> for did. Within 3 weeks all sores and infections were totally on the
> road to being gone and she started to regrow hair..She made a full
> complete recovery and is still doing fine.... Sorry about OT and goats
> being treated, but PP is some good stuff if used right.....and it
> works wonders on most fungal type problems. May not be the best choice
> for Ich due to cost, but it still is a viable method of erradicating
> ich. Potassium permanganate will kill bacterial, fungal and many
> parasitic agents, but it is not viricide.
>
> To do a demand test:
> You can use this method to estimate the amount of potassium
> permanganate required for effective treatment This method will.
> determine the potassium permanganate demand or amount of chemical
> required to react with all the organic matter in a water sample. This
> procedure measures the 15-minute demand. This value is then multiplied
> by 2 to give the recommended treatment rate. The 15-minute demand is
> determined as follows:
>
> Prepare a 1,000 mg/L stock solution by adding 1,000 milligrams or 1
> gram of potassium permanganate to 1 liter of distilled water and mix
> thoroughly.
> 1. Collect five 1-liter samples of the subject water.
> 2. Prepare a series of test treatments. Add 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10
> milliliters (mL) of the stock solution (prepared in Step 1) into the
> five 1-liter samples. Mix thoroughly.
> 3. Wait 15 minutes.
> 4. The test treatment that has the slightest faint pink color after 15
> minutes is the correct 15-minute potassium permanganate demand. If
> there is a question as to which rate has a faint pink color, choose
> the lower treatment rate.
> 5. Multiply the 15-minute demand treatment by 2 to get the proper
> treatment rate for the pond.
>
>
> If in doubt go with the lowest dose rate and monitor fish closely.
> Average common dose is 2ppm
>
> Don't forget, all fish types have different levels of tolerance.
>
>
>
>

[Mike Kelly]

Thanks Roy. I will locate PP and dose the entire tank and let the group know
of the results
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>A start would be the initial risk....but here goes.
> Right from the folks at the U of F....
> For most fish, potassium permanganate can be administered at a
> concentration of 2 mg/L as a long-term bath (four-hour minimum) in
> fresh water or salt water systems. Potassium permanganate is also
> reasonably safe to use in recirculating systems and has minimal impact
> on biofilters when used at 2 mg/L. Treated water should retain the
> purple coloration for at least four hours.
>
> I shoot for 6 hours minimum and 8 hours max for color retention.
>
> For a treatment rate of 2 mg/L, this formula would be:
>
>
> Grams of Chemical = Gallons Treated × 0.0038 × 2 mg/LTherefore, to
> treat a 250-gallon vat, the grams of potassium permanganate needed are
> as depicted below:
>
>
> Grams needed = (250 gal) × (0.0038) × (2 mg/L) = 1.9 gramsAn
> inexpensive gram scale can be obtained by purchasing a dietary scale
> at your local grocery store or pharmacy. One level teaspoon of
> potassium permanganate weighs about 7.0 grams.
>
> Or better yet make a stock solution up as such for small systems:
> A stock solution is a concentrated solution of chemical from which
> small amounts can be taken to treat tanks as needed. This is useful
> when either multiple tanks or multiple treatments are needed. An easy
> way to make up a stock solution for potassium permanganate is to
> purchase a one-gallon bottle of distilled water, weigh 285 grams of
> potassium permanganate, add it to the solution, and mix thoroughly.
> This stock solution will deliver a dose of 1 mg/L when delivered at a
> rate of one drop per gallon. Therefore, to achieve the desired
> concentration of 2 mg/L, the stock solution can be delivered at a rate
> of two drops per gallon. The stock solution should be stored in a
> cool, dark area and be replaced annually.
> When treating larger systems, it is useful to remember that 20 drops
> are equal to 1 milliliter (ml), or one cubic centimeter (cc) if
> measuring the liquid with a syringe. Therefore, 1 ml of stock solution
> will treat ten gallons of water with a concentration of 2 mg/L.
>
> Itys best to store mixed stock solution in a dark or opaque container
> in a cool out of the light area away from any hydrocarbons just ncase
> it leaks. I store my stock in white plastic gal jugs in a sealed (snap
> on lid) plastic 5 gal bucket.
>
> And as a side note to goat keepers. I had a proboem with one doe that
> used to have a fungal infection on lower legs and hoofs and after
> numerous trips to vet and constant daily foot baths and much $$$ and
> no results, I decided to either put her down or see what PP may do. I
> gave her 3 days worth of treatments which consisted of a 1 hour stand
> in a PP bath......with no rinseing afterwards. Retaining a goat in
> any liquid is a chore in itself. Within 1 week after initiala
> treatment her legs and hoofs looked better than any treatment i paid
> for did. Within 3 weeks all sores and infections were totally on the
> road to being gone and she started to regrow hair..She made a full
> complete recovery and is still doing fine.... Sorry about OT and goats
> being treated, but PP is some good stuff if used right.....and it
> works wonders on most fungal type problems. May not be the best choice
> for Ich due to cost, but it still is a viable method of erradicating
> ich. Potassium permanganate will kill bacterial, fungal and many
> parasitic agents, but it is not viricide.
>
> To do a demand test:
> You can use this method to estimate the amount of potassium
> permanganate required for effective treatment This method will.
> determine the potassium permanganate demand or amount of chemical
> required to react with all the organic matter in a water sample. This
> procedure measures the 15-minute demand. This value is then multiplied
> by 2 to give the recommended treatment rate. The 15-minute demand is
> determined as follows:
>
> Prepare a 1,000 mg/L stock solution by adding 1,000 milligrams or 1
> gram of potassium permanganate to 1 liter of distilled water and mix
> thoroughly.
> 1. Collect five 1-liter samples of the subject water.
> 2. Prepare a series of test treatments. Add 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10
> milliliters (mL) of the stock solution (prepared in Step 1) into the
> five 1-liter samples. Mix thoroughly.
> 3. Wait 15 minutes.
> 4. The test treatment that has the slightest faint pink color after 15
> minutes is the correct 15-minute potassium permanganate demand. If
> there is a question as to which rate has a faint pink color, choose
> the lower treatment rate.
> 5. Multiply the 15-minute demand treatment by 2 to get the proper
> treatment rate for the pond.
>
>
> If in doubt go with the lowest dose rate and monitor fish closely.
> Average common dose is 2ppm
>
> Don't forget, all fish types have different levels of tolerance.
>
>
>
>
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Roy]

Hi Mike......What ever happens and I hope its for the best, I only
report and post what has worked for me and info pased down to me from
others......PP can be good or it can be big time bad, so just use
caution both in mixing it up and using it......I know hydro9gen
peroixide can be used in freshwater ok, but not usre if it can be used
in sal****er....so in that case if its sal****er use dechlorinator if
the need arises, by adding the amount required for that gal of tank
capacity and water should start to clear almost imediately.....Also
provide lots of aeration...It helps with the process as well as aides
the fish....Lots of luck. I have done it dozens of times from small
pico sized tanks with feeders to 2+ million gallon ponds and I still
get butterflies when I start..I have been told that if a fish dies
from a PP treatment or shortly thereafter, odds are it was destined to
die anyhow,.....considering that the proper dose was used.

Another thing, you will see some fish go absoutely berserk, like they
were stuck in hydrochloric acid.....jumping, flipping etc.This is not
a sign of stress, its just the fish getting rid of whats getting
oxidized on them, and more or less cleaning himself up. Stress is
coming to top and gasping for air etc.......
Once again regards and good luck....FIGURE YOUR GALLONS AND DOSE A
FEW TIMES just to be sure. Then do it again right befor eyur ready to
dose......
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Mike Kelly]

Thanks for all the help and advice. I figure that the fish will die anyway
If I do not act, and that this will work better than than tearing the tank
apart. Last time I tried this I never got hold of the pseudochromis anyway.
He got inside one of the rocks somehow. Its an 80 gallon tank, and the rocks
and live sand are about 10 gallons total displacement, maybe a little more.
So I figure if I try your formula at 1/10 strength, and add 20 drops/gallon
for 69 gallons, I ought to be OK. I'll poke around for the possibility of
using peroxide in sal****er, and if I find nothing, then I have
dechlorinator/chloramine remover.

The bad thing is, PP is hard to find locally. Seems that the bathtub
methamphetamine cooks like to use it somehow in one of the ways they cook
that junk up. So the pharmacies do not carry it anymore. It's widely
available online, though. I located a seller three states away, and used
priority mail, so it should be here in two days. I hope that is soon enough.
I will try to trap the fish during that time, to get them in the quarantine
tank. If I have no luck, I'll blast the display tank. If I blow it, then the
group can learn from me. I'm not worried about any brown sludge from
oxidized junk, as the tank underwent a 100% water change when I moved 6
weeks ago, and was a clean tank before that. The crabs, snails and brittle
star take care of any deitrus anyway.

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Mike......What ever happens and I hope its for the best, I only
> report and post what has worked for me and info pased down to me from
> others......PP can be good or it can be big time bad, so just use
> caution both in mixing it up and using it......I know hydro9gen
> peroixide can be used in freshwater ok, but not usre if it can be used
> in sal****er....so in that case if its sal****er use dechlorinator if
> the need arises, by adding the amount required for that gal of tank
> capacity and water should start to clear almost imediately.....Also
> provide lots of aeration...It helps with the process as well as aides
> the fish....Lots of luck. I have done it dozens of times from small
> pico sized tanks with feeders to 2+ million gallon ponds and I still
> get butterflies when I start..I have been told that if a fish dies
> from a PP treatment or shortly thereafter, odds are it was destined to
> die anyhow,.....considering that the proper dose was used.
>
> Another thing, you will see some fish go absoutely berserk, like they
> were stuck in hydrochloric acid.....jumping, flipping etc.This is not
> a sign of stress, its just the fish getting rid of whats getting
> oxidized on them, and more or less cleaning himself up. Stress is
> coming to top and gasping for air etc.......
> Once again regards and good luck....FIGURE YOUR GALLONS AND DOSE A
> FEW TIMES just to be sure. Then do it again right befor eyur ready to
> dose......
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Mike Kelly]

Well, the flame angel is dead now. 50 dollars lost there. The fish store
that sold me the blenny that introduced all this disease to my tank is
called Greendale's. It is in Kannapolis, NC. Stay away, stay very far away.
We will see if I can save the pseudochromis

"Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the help and advice. I figure that the fish will die anyway
> If I do not act, and that this will work better than than tearing the tank
> apart. Last time I tried this I never got hold of the pseudochromis
> anyway. He got inside one of the rocks somehow. Its an 80 gallon tank, and
> the rocks and live sand are about 10 gallons total displacement, maybe a
> little more. So I figure if I try your formula at 1/10 strength, and add
> 20 drops/gallon for 69 gallons, I ought to be OK. I'll poke around for the
> possibility of using peroxide in sal****er, and if I find nothing, then I
> have dechlorinator/chloramine remover.
>
> The bad thing is, PP is hard to find locally. Seems that the bathtub
> methamphetamine cooks like to use it somehow in one of the ways they cook
> that junk up. So the pharmacies do not carry it anymore. It's widely
> available online, though. I located a seller three states away, and used
> priority mail, so it should be here in two days. I hope that is soon
> enough. I will try to trap the fish during that time, to get them in the
> quarantine tank. If I have no luck, I'll blast the display tank. If I blow
> it, then the group can learn from me. I'm not worried about any brown
> sludge from oxidized junk, as the tank underwent a 100% water change when
> I moved 6 weeks ago, and was a clean tank before that. The crabs, snails
> and brittle star take care of any deitrus anyway.
>
> "Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi Mike......What ever happens and I hope its for the best, I only
>> report and post what has worked for me and info pased down to me from
>> others......PP can be good or it can be big time bad, so just use
>> caution both in mixing it up and using it......I know hydro9gen
>> peroixide can be used in freshwater ok, but not usre if it can be used
>> in sal****er....so in that case if its sal****er use dechlorinator if
>> the need arises, by adding the amount required for that gal of tank
>> capacity and water should start to clear almost imediately.....Also
>> provide lots of aeration...It helps with the process as well as aides
>> the fish....Lots of luck. I have done it dozens of times from small
>> pico sized tanks with feeders to 2+ million gallon ponds and I still
>> get butterflies when I start..I have been told that if a fish dies
>> from a PP treatment or shortly thereafter, odds are it was destined to
>> die anyhow,.....considering that the proper dose was used.
>>
>> Another thing, you will see some fish go absoutely berserk, like they
>> were stuck in hydrochloric acid.....jumping, flipping etc.This is not
>> a sign of stress, its just the fish getting rid of whats getting
>> oxidized on them, and more or less cleaning himself up. Stress is
>> coming to top and gasping for air etc.......
>> Once again regards and good luck....FIGURE YOUR GALLONS AND DOSE A
>> FEW TIMES just to be sure. Then do it again right befor eyur ready to
>> dose......
>> --
>> \\\|///
>> ( @ @ )
>> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>>
>>
>> oooO
>> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
>> \ ( ( )
>> \_) ) /
>> (_/
>> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....
>
>

[miskairal]

Good on you. We should always praise the good guys and let the bad ones
be known. I realize that sometimes things go bad even for a good petshop
but if everyone told us their experiences then we'd be able to sort out
the always bad from the nearly always good.

and Roy - everyone at Guppylog says a big thankyou for your info. We
understand it is your findings but it is still knowledge gained for all.

Mike Kelly wrote:
> Well, the flame angel is dead now. 50 dollars lost there. The fish store
> that sold me the blenny that introduced all this disease to my tank is
> called Greendale's. It is in Kannapolis, NC. Stay away, stay very far away.
> We will see if I can save the pseudochromis
>
> "Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Thanks for all the help and advice. I figure that the fish will die anyway
>>If I do not act, and that this will work better than than tearing the tank
>>apart. Last time I tried this I never got hold of the pseudochromis
>>anyway. He got inside one of the rocks somehow. Its an 80 gallon tank, and
>>the rocks and live sand are about 10 gallons total displacement, maybe a
>>little more. So I figure if I try your formula at 1/10 strength, and add
>>20 drops/gallon for 69 gallons, I ought to be OK. I'll poke around for the
>>possibility of using peroxide in sal****er, and if I find nothing, then I
>>have dechlorinator/chloramine remover.
>>
>>The bad thing is, PP is hard to find locally. Seems that the bathtub
>>methamphetamine cooks like to use it somehow in one of the ways they cook
>>that junk up. So the pharmacies do not carry it anymore. It's widely
>>available online, though. I located a seller three states away, and used
>>priority mail, so it should be here in two days. I hope that is soon
>>enough. I will try to trap the fish during that time, to get them in the
>>quarantine tank. If I have no luck, I'll blast the display tank. If I blow
>>it, then the group can learn from me. I'm not worried about any brown
>>sludge from oxidized junk, as the tank underwent a 100% water change when
>>I moved 6 weeks ago, and was a clean tank before that. The crabs, snails
>>and brittle star take care of any deitrus anyway.
>>
>>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Hi Mike......What ever happens and I hope its for the best, I only
>>>report and post what has worked for me and info pased down to me from
>>>others......PP can be good or it can be big time bad, so just use
>>>caution both in mixing it up and using it......I know hydro9gen
>>>peroixide can be used in freshwater ok, but not usre if it can be used
>>>in sal****er....so in that case if its sal****er use dechlorinator if
>>>the need arises, by adding the amount required for that gal of tank
>>>capacity and water should start to clear almost imediately.....Also
>>>provide lots of aeration...It helps with the process as well as aides
>>>the fish....Lots of luck. I have done it dozens of times from small
>>>pico sized tanks with feeders to 2+ million gallon ponds and I still
>>>get butterflies when I start..I have been told that if a fish dies
>>>from a PP treatment or shortly thereafter, odds are it was destined to
>>>die anyhow,.....considering that the proper dose was used.
>>>
>>>Another thing, you will see some fish go absoutely berserk, like they
>>>were stuck in hydrochloric acid.....jumping, flipping etc.This is not
>>>a sign of stress, its just the fish getting rid of whats getting
>>>oxidized on them, and more or less cleaning himself up. Stress is
>>>coming to top and gasping for air etc.......
>>>Once again regards and good luck....FIGURE YOUR GALLONS AND DOSE A
>>>FEW TIMES just to be sure. Then do it again right befor eyur ready to
>>>dose......
>>>--
>>> \\\|///
>>> ( @ @ )
>>>-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>>>
>>>
>>> oooO
>>>---------( )----Oooo----------------
>>> \ ( ( )
>>> \_) ) /
>>> (_/
>>>The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....
>>
>>
>
>

[Mike Kelly]

Now the Pseudochromis has made a wonderful meal for the crabs, as he/she was
looking very bad last night, and this morning is just a skeleton with shreds
of meat here and there.

So now the tank is fish free. Is there any sense in dosing the tank with PP
now? Ironically, it will arrive today.

For futrure prevention of this, I wonder what some thoughts are of dosing
the fish in the quarantine tank (as a preventive measure) before adding them
to the main tank.


"Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
...
> Well, the flame angel is dead now. 50 dollars lost there. The fish store
> that sold me the blenny that introduced all this disease to my tank is
> called Greendale's. It is in Kannapolis, NC. Stay away, stay very far
> away. We will see if I can save the pseudochromis
>
> "Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thanks for all the help and advice. I figure that the fish will die
>> anyway If I do not act, and that this will work better than than tearing
>> the tank apart. Last time I tried this I never got hold of the
>> pseudochromis anyway. He got inside one of the rocks somehow. Its an 80
>> gallon tank, and the rocks and live sand are about 10 gallons total
>> displacement, maybe a little more. So I figure if I try your formula at
>> 1/10 strength, and add 20 drops/gallon for 69 gallons, I ought to be OK.
>> I'll poke around for the possibility of using peroxide in sal****er, and
>> if I find nothing, then I have dechlorinator/chloramine remover.
>>
>> The bad thing is, PP is hard to find locally. Seems that the bathtub
>> methamphetamine cooks like to use it somehow in one of the ways they cook
>> that junk up. So the pharmacies do not carry it anymore. It's widely
>> available online, though. I located a seller three states away, and used
>> priority mail, so it should be here in two days. I hope that is soon
>> enough. I will try to trap the fish during that time, to get them in the
>> quarantine tank. If I have no luck, I'll blast the display tank. If I
>> blow it, then the group can learn from me. I'm not worried about any
>> brown sludge from oxidized junk, as the tank underwent a 100% water
>> change when I moved 6 weeks ago, and was a clean tank before that. The
>> crabs, snails and brittle star take care of any deitrus anyway.
>>
>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Hi Mike......What ever happens and I hope its for the best, I only
>>> report and post what has worked for me and info pased down to me from
>>> others......PP can be good or it can be big time bad, so just use
>>> caution both in mixing it up and using it......I know hydro9gen
>>> peroixide can be used in freshwater ok, but not usre if it can be used
>>> in sal****er....so in that case if its sal****er use dechlorinator if
>>> the need arises, by adding the amount required for that gal of tank
>>> capacity and water should start to clear almost imediately.....Also
>>> provide lots of aeration...It helps with the process as well as aides
>>> the fish....Lots of luck. I have done it dozens of times from small
>>> pico sized tanks with feeders to 2+ million gallon ponds and I still
>>> get butterflies when I start..I have been told that if a fish dies
>>> from a PP treatment or shortly thereafter, odds are it was destined to
>>> die anyhow,.....considering that the proper dose was used.
>>>
>>> Another thing, you will see some fish go absoutely berserk, like they
>>> were stuck in hydrochloric acid.....jumping, flipping etc.This is not
>>> a sign of stress, its just the fish getting rid of whats getting
>>> oxidized on them, and more or less cleaning himself up. Stress is
>>> coming to top and gasping for air etc.......
>>> Once again regards and good luck....FIGURE YOUR GALLONS AND DOSE A
>>> FEW TIMES just to be sure. Then do it again right befor eyur ready to
>>> dose......
>>> --
>>> \\\|///
>>> ( @ @ )
>>> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>>>
>>>
>>> oooO
>>> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
>>> \ ( ( )
>>> \_) ) /
>>> (_/
>>> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....
>>
>>
>
>

[Roy]

Sorry to hear of your loss........real bummer. I just quarantine sw
fish in a bare basic setup and observe.....Freshwater fish is another
story, and I normally acclimate them first, place in a small doseing
tank to which I add PP, and from there I do water changes and move em
into a larger QT tank and observe....Are you mail ordering your fish
or buying them locally? If ordering its a crap shoot no matter how you
do it or who you order from, local is a different ball game since you
can observe fish befroe purchase. The shop I utilize here will hold a
fish in their tanks for a week or two with just a down payment on it.
They do not use meds, and they also have a setup where they also qt
any new fish before putting them up for sale......Their fish are just
teriffic in health and condition, and they are proud of their signs of
no MEDS used. Its a lot more work for them in having to relocate fish
1 or two times before selling, but its rare to ever hear of anyone
getting a sick fish from them.

I probably would not dose the tank now, but do a major water change
and let it go for a bit. Watch the other critters and if all looks
good then add more fish....

Being that some fish have to travel so far especially sw fish, they
may arrive pretty well stressed out, so I would probably put them in a
qt and just observe.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:21:28 GMT, "Mike Kelly"
> wrote:
>><>Now the Pseudochromis has made a wonderful meal for the crabs, as he/she was
>><>looking very bad last night, and this morning is just a skeleton with shreds
>><>of meat here and there.
>><>
>><>So now the tank is fish free. Is there any sense in dosing the tank with PP
>><>now? Ironically, it will arrive today.
>><>
>><>For futrure prevention of this, I wonder what some thoughts are of dosing
>><>the fish in the quarantine tank (as a preventive measure) before adding them
>><>to the main tank.
>><>
>><>
>><>"Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
...
>><>> Well, the flame angel is dead now. 50 dollars lost there. The fish store
>><>> that sold me the blenny that introduced all this disease to my tank is
>><>> called Greendale's. It is in Kannapolis, NC. Stay away, stay very far
>><>> away. We will see if I can save the pseudochromis
>><>>
>><>> "Mike Kelly" > wrote in message
>><>> ...
>><>>> Thanks for all the help and advice. I figure that the fish will die
>><>>> anyway If I do not act, and that this will work better than than tearing
>><>>> the tank apart. Last time I tried this I never got hold of the
>><>>> pseudochromis anyway. He got inside one of the rocks somehow. Its an 80
>><>>> gallon tank, and the rocks and live sand are about 10 gallons total
>><>>> displacement, maybe a little more. So I figure if I try your formula at
>><>>> 1/10 strength, and add 20 drops/gallon for 69 gallons, I ought to be OK.
>><>>> I'll poke around for the possibility of using peroxide in sal****er, and
>><>>> if I find nothing, then I have dechlorinator/chloramine remover.
>><>>>
>><>>> The bad thing is, PP is hard to find locally. Seems that the bathtub
>><>>> methamphetamine cooks like to use it somehow in one of the ways they cook
>><>>> that junk up. So the pharmacies do not carry it anymore. It's widely
>><>>> available online, though. I located a seller three states away, and used
>><>>> priority mail, so it should be here in two days. I hope that is soon
>><>>> enough. I will try to trap the fish during that time, to get them in the
>><>>> quarantine tank. If I have no luck, I'll blast the display tank. If I
>><>>> blow it, then the group can learn from me. I'm not worried about any
>><>>> brown sludge from oxidized junk, as the tank underwent a 100% water
>><>>> change when I moved 6 weeks ago, and was a clean tank before that. The
>><>>> crabs, snails and brittle star take care of any deitrus anyway.
>><>>>
>><>>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>><>>> ...
>><>>>> Hi Mike......What ever happens and I hope its for the best, I only
>><>>>> report and post what has worked for me and info pased down to me from
>><>>>> others......PP can be good or it can be big time bad, so just use
>><>>>> caution both in mixing it up and using it......I know hydro9gen
>><>>>> peroixide can be used in freshwater ok, but not usre if it can be used
>><>>>> in sal****er....so in that case if its sal****er use dechlorinator if
>><>>>> the need arises, by adding the amount required for that gal of tank
>><>>>> capacity and water should start to clear almost imediately.....Also
>><>>>> provide lots of aeration...It helps with the process as well as aides
>><>>>> the fish....Lots of luck. I have done it dozens of times from small
>><>>>> pico sized tanks with feeders to 2+ million gallon ponds and I still
>><>>>> get butterflies when I start..I have been told that if a fish dies
>><>>>> from a PP treatment or shortly thereafter, odds are it was destined to
>><>>>> die anyhow,.....considering that the proper dose was used.
>><>>>>
>><>>>> Another thing, you will see some fish go absoutely berserk, like they
>><>>>> were stuck in hydrochloric acid.....jumping, flipping etc.This is not
>><>>>> a sign of stress, its just the fish getting rid of whats getting
>><>>>> oxidized on them, and more or less cleaning himself up. Stress is
>><>>>> coming to top and gasping for air etc.......
>><>>>> Once again regards and good luck....FIGURE YOUR GALLONS AND DOSE A
>><>>>> FEW TIMES just to be sure. Then do it again right befor eyur ready to
>><>>>> dose......
>><>>>> --
>><>>>> \\\|///
>><>>>> ( @ @ )
>><>>>> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>><>>>>
>><>>>>
>><>>>> oooO
>><>>>> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
>><>>>> \ ( ( )
>><>>>> \_) ) /
>><>>>> (_/
>><>>>> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....
>><>>>
>><>>>
>><>>
>><>>
>><>

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....