Re: DIY Heating for Sump system

[The Madd Hatter]

The reason that i think the space heater will be a major contributor is that
the enclosure will be very small (10' x 7' x 6'H)... Temperatures in my
garage regularly drop below zero in the winter (or should I say,
occasionally rise above 0!).. I'm hoping that a space heater w/ a fan,
designed to raise a normal rooms temperature a few degrees, will raise the
temp. a bit more dramatically in this tiny sealed off compartment. I plan on
having vents in the walls I'm putting up to provide fresh air. That being
said, these things aren't designed to run 24/7, so I do need to have
sufficient heating in my tank system to keep it stable. 2 heaters per tank
is too much for me to afford at this juncture, hence I want to find
something that will allow me to centrally heat the whole system.. I know I
can probably use 4 or 5 submersible aquarium heaters in the sump w/ enough
wattage that even if 1 fails, the others should be able to prevent too wide
a swing. I'm going to put thermometers in each tank to monitor
discrepancies.

Wait a minute... I just re read what you wrote... Are you saying that it
would be more efficient for me to just heat the water? If the area was
insulated tight, would the resulting water temperature heat my room to a
bearable temperature also?

Just in case your wondering, this project is the first of its kind that I've
attempted. I'm having to think about every law of physics I learned in
highschool 10 years ago! I'm having enormous fun w/ the whole thing. The
latest chapter as you see is The Laws of Thermodynamics. I already went
through a crash course in structural integrity building my rack (carpentry
too!), Hydraulics when designing the sump system and plumbing, and I'm
currently also trying to design the air distribution out of sprinkler system
adjustable flow manifolds (I think thats pnumatics!) Any advice is
appreciated, as I've learned everything so far off of newsgroups and
websites

"Bob K." > wrote in message
...
> >Does anyone know how i could set up a system using one of those coil
heaters
> >usually used to heat water (handheld)... I want to be able to link one of
> >those to some sort of temperature probe and thermostat that can cut off
the
> >power when the desired temperature is reached...
>
> Those heaters aren't made to last as much as you need.
> And the metal in them will disolve into the water.
>
> The most efficient heating is going to be heating the water,
> but you'll always have to watch for when a thermostat gets
> old and sticks. Space heater is inefficient but will make it
> comfortable to work in there.
>
> A recommendation for large tanks would work well for you,
> use two heaters in each tank - each half the wattage you need.
> if one breaks, either stuck on or off - the other will keep the
> tank from going way off.
>
> Bob

[Racf]

"The Madd Hatter" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
> The reason that i think the space heater will be a major contributor
is that
> the enclosure will be very small (10' x 7' x 6'H)... Temperatures in
my
> garage regularly drop below zero in the winter (or should I say,
> occasionally rise above 0!).. I'm hoping that a space heater w/ a fan,
> designed to raise a normal rooms temperature a few degrees, will raise
the
> temp. a bit more dramatically in this tiny sealed off compartment. I
plan on
> having vents in the walls I'm putting up to provide fresh air. That
being
> said, these things aren't designed to run 24/7, so I do need to have
> sufficient heating in my tank system to keep it stable. 2 heaters per
tank
> is too much for me to afford at this juncture, hence I want to find
> something that will allow me to centrally heat the whole system.. I
know I
> can probably use 4 or 5 submersible aquarium heaters in the sump w/
enough
> wattage that even if 1 fails, the others should be able to prevent too
wide
> a swing. I'm going to put thermometers in each tank to monitor
> discrepancies.
>
> Wait a minute... I just re read what you wrote... Are you saying that
it
> would be more efficient for me to just heat the water? If the area was
> insulated tight, would the resulting water temperature heat my room to
a
> bearable temperature also?
>
> Just in case your wondering, this project is the first of its kind
that I've
> attempted. I'm having to think about every law of physics I learned in
> highschool 10 years ago! I'm having enormous fun w/ the whole thing.
The
> latest chapter as you see is The Laws of Thermodynamics. I already
went
> through a crash course in structural integrity building my rack
(carpentry
> too!), Hydraulics when designing the sump system and plumbing, and I'm
> currently also trying to design the air distribution out of sprinkler
system
> adjustable flow manifolds (I think thats pnumatics!) Any advice is
> appreciated, as I've learned everything so far off of newsgroups and
> websites
>
> "Bob K." > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Does anyone know how i could set up a system using one of those
coil
> heaters
> > >usually used to heat water (handheld)... I want to be able to link
one of
> > >those to some sort of temperature probe and thermostat that can cut
off
> the
> > >power when the desired temperature is reached...
> >
> > Those heaters aren't made to last as much as you need.
> > And the metal in them will disolve into the water.
> >
> > The most efficient heating is going to be heating the water,
> > but you'll always have to watch for when a thermostat gets
> > old and sticks. Space heater is inefficient but will make it
> > comfortable to work in there.
> >
> > A recommendation for large tanks would work well for you,
> > use two heaters in each tank - each half the wattage you need.
> > if one breaks, either stuck on or off - the other will keep the
> > tank from going way off.
> >
> > Bob
>
>

Maybe a flex duct from your home's central heating would be the way to
heat the space.
Aquarium heaters can raise the temp maybe 10 -15 degrees F. higher than
the prevailing influence....but that's about it assuming your have 3 - 5
watts of heat per gallon of water.... Tank heaters will not heat the
fishroom....at all...

[Bob K.]

>Our basement is rented out, so I know I can't do anything there.I am
>starting to re think this thing from the perspective of cost though. Its
>gonna be a huge electricity bill if I do this, and I shudder to think what
>would have happened if this black out had happened in the winter.
>
>I might just have to put a hold on the project, which really sucks cuz I've
>built the stand, picked up 3 of the tanks, the air pump and even have the
>sump system ready.

With the amount of heat you'll have to pump into that room,
and the reliance on no power outage, you're begging for
problems. I lived in San Jose & the garage would have been
too cold. With your "infrequently above 0 degrees" .. it won't
work.
You'd be better off converting the space to a bedroom and
putting the tanks where the bedroom was. At least you'd
survive sleeping in a cold room, the fish won't.

It was many years ago, but I had 5-6 tanks in my bedroom,
you get use to the sound ;-)

Bob

[The Madd Hatter]

I've already got three in my bedroom. I don't mind the sound, but the rack
almost 7' long and with the tanks filled will weigh 1800 + lbs.. I've
already got 7 tanks in the house, so I'm banned from setting anymore up
unless its in the garage... I even have a pond full of cichlid fry growing
out in the back yard!

"Bob K." > wrote in message
...
> >Our basement is rented out, so I know I can't do anything there.I am
> >starting to re think this thing from the perspective of cost though. Its
> >gonna be a huge electricity bill if I do this, and I shudder to think
what
> >would have happened if this black out had happened in the winter.
> >
> >I might just have to put a hold on the project, which really sucks cuz
I've
> >built the stand, picked up 3 of the tanks, the air pump and even have the
> >sump system ready.
>
> With the amount of heat you'll have to pump into that room,
> and the reliance on no power outage, you're begging for
> problems. I lived in San Jose & the garage would have been
> too cold. With your "infrequently above 0 degrees" .. it won't
> work.
> You'd be better off converting the space to a bedroom and
> putting the tanks where the bedroom was. At least you'd
> survive sleeping in a cold room, the fish won't.
>
> It was many years ago, but I had 5-6 tanks in my bedroom,
> you get use to the sound ;-)
>
> Bob
>
>

[[email protected]]

"The Madd Hatter" > wrote in message ogers.com>...
> I've already got three in my bedroom. I don't mind the sound, but the rack
> almost 7' long and with the tanks filled will weigh 1800 + lbs.. I've
> already got 7 tanks in the house, so I'm banned from setting anymore up
> unless its in the garage... I even have a pond full of cichlid fry growing
> out in the back yard!
>
> i also am concidering doing the same thing the only difference
is that i live in vancouver it doesn't get that cold here
maybe only a copple of weeks below zero -1 max -3
where did you get the plans for the rack ??
i have 240 gal tank
2 -33 gallon tanks
1-20 gal tank
and one 5 gal snail tank
and in the house will be 105 gal show tank
i move to new house with double car garage on sept 15th
there is a wall down the middle with i sliding door that seperats the
two garages . the side i want to make a fish room has a 240 volt wall
heater
i think for heat i am ok???( i hope )
please point me in the right direction for the rack?
for sump filter i am thinking of a big xmas tree rubbermaid storage
with two buckets in it. Water drops in one bucket overflows onto
main rubbermaid which is filled with ployester batting (quilt batting)
the second bucket will have holes drilled all around. the water will
flow into second bucket (with heater in) and be pumped back to tank??
am i missing anything??
thank les

[The Madd Hatter]

Mid-posted response.. See below...

> wrote in message
om...
> "The Madd Hatter" > wrote in message
ogers.com>...
> > I've already got three in my bedroom. I don't mind the sound, but the
rack
> > almost 7' long and with the tanks filled will weigh 1800 + lbs.. I've
> > already got 7 tanks in the house, so I'm banned from setting anymore up
> > unless its in the garage... I even have a pond full of cichlid fry
growing
> > out in the back yard!
> >
> > i also am concidering doing the same thing the only difference
> is that i live in vancouver it doesn't get that cold here
> maybe only a copple of weeks below zero -1 max -3
> where did you get the plans for the rack ??
> i have 240 gal tank
> 2 -33 gallon tanks
> 1-20 gal tank
> and one 5 gal snail tank
> and in the house will be 105 gal show tank

I wish I had a 200+ gallon tank! Alas, I am limited by space and cash! I
have the following tanks currently:
1 - 108 Gallon (5') Hagen in the house
2 - 35 Gallon tanks
1 - 33 Gallon tank
1 - 40 Gallon (Custom size) tank
1 - 25 Gallon tank
1 - 20 Gallon tank
The above are all in the house except 1 35 and the 40, which are temporarily
in th garage so I can monitor summer conditions (its a lot harder to keep
them cool then to heat them!)
The rack itself holds 6 30 Gallon tanks (24"L x 18"W x 14"H), 3 per level.

> i move to new house with double car garage on sept 15th
> there is a wall down the middle with i sliding door that seperats the
> two garages . the side i want to make a fish room has a 240 volt wall
> heater
> i think for heat i am ok???( i hope )

Hoping will lead to some very nice ice cubes for fish... Are the walls
insulated in the garage? The roof? What are you going to do about the garage
door? You'd have to wall it off or a portion of that section to insulate.
Even if you don't get freezing temperatures, it still gets pretty cold in
the winter... Unless you are keeping cold water fish, you will need to
insulate properly, and come up w/ a heating system (which is what I'm trying
to design now)

> please point me in the right direction for the rack?

I based my design loosely on one I found at the site listed below. Klaus is
the Eastern Representative of the Canadian Cichlid Assoc., of which I'm a
member.
http://www.geocities.com/cyphotilapia2001/tips.html

Mine is not a cabinet style like his.. Its a simpler 2 level rack w/ no
top for the lighting (I already have a long permanent shelf above that part
of the garage to attach lighting to.) I like the way he braced the bottom
level w/ 2x4's bolted to the legs. I used that method for both levels. I
made it a lot stronger then I needed.



> for sump filter i am thinking of a big xmas tree rubbermaid storage
> with two buckets in it. Water drops in one bucket overflows onto
> main rubbermaid which is filled with ployester batting (quilt batting)
> the second bucket will have holes drilled all around. the water will
> flow into second bucket (with heater in) and be pumped back to tank??
> am i missing anything??

This is not a very efficient plan, the way I'm picturing it. It only
accomplishes mechanical filtration. what you need is biological filtration.
I would suggest the following: Cut the first bucket in half, and keep the
bottom half. Drill the bottom full of holes (3/16" or so should do it)...
This will be where you put your filter batting... Drill the bottom of the
second bucket w/ large diameter holes (1/2" should be good). Fill the second
bucket with a media that will have high surface area to sustain bacterial
growth.. You can purchase bio balls for this, or if you're cheap like me,
try something like used loads of polyester strapping piled in there. Just
make sure water flows freely w/o dead spots. Now you will "nest" the first
bucket in to this one. Place this contraption in on one side of your big
container, reting on bricks, or legs cut out of pvc... Water will enter
through the top, go through the filter batting, and if you did your holes
properly, it will fill the container slightly and drip through the holes
into the second bucket and hence through the bio media... You don't want
this second chamber filling w/ water, as the bacteria is aerobic, hence the
bigger holes. The water flows into the main chamber, where you can position
your heaters and also your pump for the return... This type of system is
called a trickle filter or wet/dry. I haven't done mine w/ the buckets,
because I already had a 35 gallon tank converted into a sump (came w/ my 100
gallon used), but the same principles apply. The whole idea is to make the
holes in the first chamber just largwe enough to allow water to back up a
couple of inches max, so it will drip evenly over the bio media. A google
search on trikle filter will show you different plans to build this type of
filter. If you're not familiar w/ the Nitrogen cycle, it would be advisable
to research that as well.

Word of caution regarding the atmosphere in the room: Make sure there is
some form of ventilation available, especially if you're running a heater,
because you will deplete the oxygen pretty quickly if the room is sealed
tight. It would also be good to consider a second line of filtration in the
form of sponge filters run off of a linear air pump... I bought a 4.8psi
pump that I'm designing a distribution header for right now to supply air to
sponge filters in all tanks. This way you have aback up filtration system,
and you can seal the tanks w/ glass tops to conserve heat w/o choking off
the oxygen supply to the tanks.

Hope this helps! Plan it out properly and it should go smoothly.


> thank les

[Bob K.]

>From:
....
> i live in vancouver it doesn'

Vancouver Washington? or Vancouver BC?

If Washington state, you are near Portland Oregon,
home of GPAS (http://gpas.org) a large club that
have many people that can answer your questions
and help get you going.

Bob

[[email protected]]

(Bob K.) wrote in message >...
> >From:
> ...
> > i live in vancouver it doesn'
>
> Vancouver Washington? or Vancouver BC?
>
> If Washington state, you are near Portland Oregon,
> home of GPAS (http://gpas.org) a large club that
> have many people that can answer your questions
> and help get you going.
>
> Bob

vancouver bc
thanks anyway i would have loved to join
les