Tank Cycling

[Mellie101]

Hello, have been following topics on the newsgroup and would really
appreciate some help.

I am in the process of cycling a 55g tank. I intend to have 5 goldfish
in it when it is fully cycled. 1 fantail, 1 Ryunkin, 1 pearlscale, 1
black moor and a oranda. Firstly do these fish all get along together?


The Aquaria has been up and running for a week now. I am using a
Fluval 404 so understand that I am 'over filtering' which is a good
thing with goldfish?? The day after running the aquarium I put the
Ryunkin and fantail in to help cycle the tank. Was going to use feeder
fish but didn't want to get attached to them then have a tank full of
them at the end. I am using 'Cycle' to speed the process up too. Our
pearlscale is in a different tank and won't be added till the cycle has
finished.

So when the first week was up I did a water test. The PH was 7.8 which
is a bit high although I understand this will naturally come down and
is still in the parameters that goldfish can handle. My ammonia was
0.25, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 5. This seems a bit 'too good to be
true' in just a week. I was reading that this could mean the tank is
cycled for the current fish and now I should add one fish at a time
until I have my full stock and allow for a spike of ammonia and
nitrites after each fish is introduced.

Also the temp of the tank is running at 74-76 degrees. This is without
a heater. The fish are doing well, eating and having a great time in
there.

Could somebody please advise me if I'm doing this right or if I haven't
got a clue at all.

I am loving this 'hobby' so much

Thanks Mellie

[Billy]

Any ammonia at all would indicate to me that the tank is not fully
cycled. In my experience, many tanks will seem to stabilize, then the
ammonia and nitrite will come back. Patience. <g>
As far as equipment goes, I'd say you're right about the
over-filtering. Goldfish are poop machines, and all the filtration
you can provide is warranted. As far as temp, I would put in a heater
anyway. Most fish can acclimate to any temp, it's variation in temp
that will weaken a fish and make it susceptible to disease.
You're on the right track, it sounds like you've done your
homework, and are well on the way to having a successful aquarium!

billy

--
¼á
"Mellie101" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello, have been following topics on the newsgroup and would really
> appreciate some help.
>
> I am in the process of cycling a 55g tank. I intend to have 5
> goldfish
> in it when it is fully cycled. 1 fantail, 1 Ryunkin, 1 pearlscale,
> 1
> black moor and a oranda. Firstly do these fish all get along
> together?
>
>
> The Aquaria has been up and running for a week now. I am using a
> Fluval 404 so understand that I am 'over filtering' which is a good
> thing with goldfish?? The day after running the aquarium I put the
> Ryunkin and fantail in to help cycle the tank. Was going to use
> feeder
> fish but didn't want to get attached to them then have a tank full
> of
> them at the end. I am using 'Cycle' to speed the process up too.
> Our
> pearlscale is in a different tank and won't be added till the cycle
> has
> finished.
>
> So when the first week was up I did a water test. The PH was 7.8
> which
> is a bit high although I understand this will naturally come down
> and
> is still in the parameters that goldfish can handle. My ammonia
> was
> 0.25, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 5. This seems a bit 'too good to be
> true' in just a week. I was reading that this could mean the tank
> is
> cycled for the current fish and now I should add one fish at a time
> until I have my full stock and allow for a spike of ammonia and
> nitrites after each fish is introduced.
>
> Also the temp of the tank is running at 74-76 degrees. This is
> without
> a heater. The fish are doing well, eating and having a great time
> in
> there.
>
> Could somebody please advise me if I'm doing this right or if I
> haven't
> got a clue at all.
>
> I am loving this 'hobby' so much
>
> Thanks Mellie
>

[Mellie101]

Hi, thanks for the advice. I'm so anxious to have my aquarium just how
i want it but I can ride it out and wait. When do you think I should
do my first water change? I have the 2 fish in there but as the
ammonia is low and Nitrites aren't there it doesn't seem like there is
a reason yet. I read that the 'cycle' water changes were really just
to dilute the ammonia. Who would have thought raising goldfish could
be so difficult :-0

Mellie

[Flash Wilson]

On 21 Jan 2006 15:22:21 -0800, Mellie101 > wrote:
>Hi, thanks for the advice. I'm so anxious to have my aquarium just how
>i want it but I can ride it out and wait. When do you think I should
>do my first water change? I have the 2 fish in there but as the
>ammonia is low and Nitrites aren't there it doesn't seem like there is
>a reason yet. I read that the 'cycle' water changes were really just
>to dilute the ammonia. Who would have thought raising goldfish could
>be so difficult :-0

I'd do the first water change when you see either ammonia, or
more critically nitrite, rising. I seem to recall my first one
was when I got home, tested and went "oh heck, that's high!"
Leave alone as much as you can, so the process completes as
fast as possible, unless you feel you have to intervene :)

I know that's not much help, but...


--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Koi-lo]

"Mellie101" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello, have been following topics on the newsgroup and would really
> appreciate some help.
>
> I am in the process of cycling a 55g tank. I intend to have 5 goldfish
> in it when it is fully cycled. 1 fantail, 1 Ryunkin, 1 pearlscale, 1
> black moor and a oranda. Firstly do these fish all get along together?

All goldfish get along with other GF. Just don't keep the handicapped ones
with those that have better vision and can swim faster. IOW, don't keep
celestials with Orandas or bubble eyes with Shubunkins. Those that have
poor vision or other handicap can't compete effectively for food.

> The Aquaria has been up and running for a week now. I am using a
> Fluval 404 so understand that I am 'over filtering' which is a good
> thing with goldfish?? The day after running the aquarium I put the
> Ryunkin and fantail in to help cycle the tank. Was going to use feeder
> fish but didn't want to get attached to them then have a tank full of
> them at the end. I am using 'Cycle' to speed the process up too. Our
> pearlscale is in a different tank and won't be added till the cycle has
> finished.

It seems everyone here agrees that only BioSpira contain the correct
bacteria to speed or bypass cycling. Don't add more fish until the tank
finishes cycling.

> So when the first week was up I did a water test. The PH was 7.8 which
> is a bit high although I understand this will naturally come down and
> is still in the parameters that goldfish can handle. My ammonia was
> 0.25, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 5. This seems a bit 'too good to be
> true' in just a week. I was reading that this could mean the tank is
> cycled for the current fish and now I should add one fish at a time
> until I have my full stock and allow for a spike of ammonia and
> nitrites after each fish is introduced.

Wait until the ammonia is zero before adding more fish.

> Also the temp of the tank is running at 74-76 degrees. This is without
> a heater. The fish are doing well, eating and having a great time in
> there.

> Could somebody please advise me if I'm doing this right or if I haven't
> got a clue at all.

You can also Google goldfish+care for hundreds of webpages.... :-)

> I am loving this 'hobby' so much

> Thanks Mellie
>
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Billy" > wrote in message
...
> Any ammonia at all would indicate to me that the tank is not fully cycled.
> In my experience, many tanks will seem to stabilize, then the ammonia and
> nitrite will come back. Patience. <g>
> As far as equipment goes, I'd say you're right about the
> over-filtering. Goldfish are poop machines, and all the filtration you can
> provide is warranted. As far as temp, I would put in a heater anyway. Most
> fish can acclimate to any temp, it's variation in temp that will weaken a
> fish and make it susceptible to disease.
==============================
I've been raising GF for some years now. They can handle temperature
changes as long as they're not drastic such as dropping them into water more
than a few degrees different than they're in. Even fancy goldfish have no
problems with the normal changes of temperature, day by day, day to night -
here in zone 6 USA. They don't need heaters. They do best in cool water.
They're not a tropical fish.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Mellie101" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi, thanks for the advice. I'm so anxious to have my aquarium just how
> i want it but I can ride it out and wait. When do you think I should
> do my first water change?

I start doing them after the 1st week and about every two weeks thereafter.
When the tank is in the early cycling stages don't disturb the gravel or
filter. Just change part of the water.

I have the 2 fish in there but as the
> ammonia is low and Nitrites aren't there it doesn't seem like there is
> a reason yet.

You would be helping the fish by diluting the ammonia there now - just leave
the filter alone.

I read that the 'cycle' water changes were really just
> to dilute the ammonia. Who would have thought raising goldfish could
> be so difficult :-0

It isn't once you get the hang of it. With good care they'll live for many
years.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

interspersed below..

"Mellie101" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello, have been following topics on the newsgroup and would really
> appreciate some help.
>
> I am in the process of cycling a 55g tank. I intend to have 5 goldfish
> in it when it is fully cycled. 1 fantail, 1 Ryunkin, 1 pearlscale, 1
> black moor and a oranda. Firstly do these fish all get along together?

Unfortunately, many goldfish cannot be reliably mixed. In your
combination, the Oranda is the one at risk. Their head tissue can be
eaten by a more aggressive and mobile fish (ie: fantail, and this would
depend on what you consider a fantail, as Ryukins are a form of fantail).
However your chances are quite good if you acquire them all as juveniles
and raise them together, with plenty of swimming room and food.

> The Aquaria has been up and running for a week now. I am using a
> Fluval 404 so understand that I am 'over filtering' which is a good
> thing with goldfish?? The day after running the aquarium I put the
> Ryunkin and fantail in to help cycle the tank. Was going to use feeder
> fish but didn't want to get attached to them then have a tank full of
> them at the end. I am using 'Cycle' to speed the process up too. Our
> pearlscale is in a different tank and won't be added till the cycle has
> finished.

Sounds fine. Short bodied Carassius auratus such as the ones you mention
do better with tall tanks and modest turbulence. I would direct the 404
output to disperse along the glass in such a manner that the Goldfish
will not get caught in the current's blast. These fish are not very
mobile and get dragged by strong current.

> So when the first week was up I did a water test. The PH was 7.8 which
> is a bit high although I understand this will naturally come down and
> is still in the parameters that goldfish can handle. My ammonia was
> 0.25, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 5. This seems a bit 'too good to be
> true' in just a week. I was reading that this could mean the tank is
> cycled for the current fish and now I should add one fish at a time
> until I have my full stock and allow for a spike of ammonia and
> nitrites after each fish is introduced.

As long as you have ANY ammonia or nitrite, you are not yet cycled. You
have 2-5 weeks to go. The product Cycle seems to have some effect on the
ammonia stage, but less on the nitrite stage imo. The consensus here
seems to favour BioSpira by a long shot. Your pH is fine.

> Also the temp of the tank is running at 74-76 degrees. This is without
> a heater. The fish are doing well, eating and having a great time in
> there.

The temperature requirements for short-bodied Goldies versus long-body is
quite different. Your Goldfish are much more 'tropical' than Comets, but
are not true tropicals. C.auratus evolved in colder waters, but fancy
goldfish are typically hatched and grown in much warmer waters than you
would expect. This is particularly true with Asian sourced fish, where
the fish-farming is a well established science. North-American raised
Goldies typically use slightly lower temperatures (in the mid-70s), at
least as I'm told by my suppliers. One of my suppliers (who raised only
commercial Goldfish, particularly for specialty stores) came to our city
and inspected my store. His recommendations were to include a bit of
salt in all water changes, use heaters for all the tanks, set the
temperature for 76F and then the usual stuff (diverse diet, light
fish-load, gravel vacuum & water change frequently etc etc). He said it
was a common mistake, applying the water conditions of Comets to Fancy
Goldfish, and it was injurious to fish which have been born & raised in
more tropical (and pampered) conditions.

You should always take these advices with a grain of salt ;~). I've also
had Fancy Goldfish in a 70F indoor pond and they seemed fine (though a
bit lost with all the swimming room ;~). Keeping to stable higher
temperatures will do certain things. It decreased the amount of
dissolved O2, so you want a ligh fish-load and good aeration/filtration
(you are ok). It increases their metabolism, so they eat more (again the
need for good filtration, and water change routine), and they have
brighter colours and grow faster. Note that 5 Fancies will certainly
fill a 55g tank, and you might even want to be upgrading them in a few
years. Unlike Comets, the Fancies only get to about 8", but they have a
lot of mass, and need lots of room to 'waddle' around ;~).

> Could somebody please advise me if I'm doing this right or if I haven't
> got a clue at all.

I disagree. I think you're on the right track. Keep your ammonia &
nitrite levels low, use salt (especially during the nitrite stage),
establish a feeding/maintenance routine with the new fish once the tank
is cycled, keep their diet diverse, don't introduce any untreated or
unquarantined matter into the tank, and you could be handing these fish
down to your grandkids (but you wouldn't want to ;~)..

> I am loving this 'hobby' so much
>
> Thanks Mellie

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mellie101]

Hi, thank you so much for your help. I am so finding this subject very
addictive. Think I will not get an oranda now and just add the black
moor and see how they all get on together. Have been searching for
information about using salt in the water change, especially during the
nitrite part of the 'cycle'. Have found lots on it but so many
differtent opinions on how much to use, what to use and whether to use.
Don't want to take up too much of anybody's time as i appreciate all
the help given here, so if somebody knows a good site or info page then
that would much appreciated.

Thanks again
Mellie

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> The temperature requirements for short-bodied Goldies versus long-body is
> quite different. Your Goldfish are much more 'tropical' than Comets, but
> are not true tropicals. C.auratus evolved in colder waters, but fancy
> goldfish are typically hatched and grown in much warmer waters than you
> would expect.

And yet my fancies thrived in outdoor 150g pools here in zone 6! The water
would reach the high 30s in the winter. I had telescope eyes, orandas,
pearlscales, common fantails and moors out there for several years.

This is particularly true with Asian sourced fish, where
> the fish-farming is a well established science. North-American raised
> Goldies typically use slightly lower temperatures (in the mid-70s), at
> least as I'm told by my suppliers. One of my suppliers (who raised only
> commercial Goldfish, particularly for specialty stores) came to our city
> and inspected my store. His recommendations were to include a bit of salt
> in all water changes, use heaters for all the tanks, set the temperature
> for 76F and then the usual stuff (diverse diet, light fish-load, gravel
> vacuum & water change frequently etc etc). He said it was a common
> mistake, applying the water conditions of Comets to Fancy Goldfish, and it
> was injurious to fish which have been born & raised in more tropical (and
> pampered) conditions.

And I was told they raise them under warmer conditions to get maximum
growth - the motive was *profit,* not the inability to cope with cooler
water. Who and what is one to believe? My experience tells me the fancies
are as hardy (temperature wise) as the Comets and Shubunkins where water
temperatures are concerned. But I'm only going by my own experience.
Acclimating them may be the big thing here. And there's the old saying, "If
you treat them like hothouse flowers, you will have hothouse flowers."

> You should always take these advices with a grain of salt ;~).

Amen!

I've also
> had Fancy Goldfish in a 70F indoor pond and they seemed fine (though a bit
> lost with all the swimming room ;~). Keeping to stable higher
> temperatures will do certain things. It decreased the amount of dissolved
> O2, so you want a ligh fish-load and good aeration/filtration (you are
> ok). It increases their metabolism, so they eat more (again the need for
> good filtration, and water change routine), and they have brighter colours
> and grow faster.

You should see their colors when raised outdoors!!! Indoor GF are pale by
comparison. I may put mine outside for the summer if I have space behind
the house for "one more" 150g pool. ;-)

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Flash Wilson]

On 22 Jan 2006 09:44:41 -0800, Mellie101 > wrote:
> Don't want to take up too much of anybody's time as i appreciate all
>the help given here, so if somebody knows a good site or info page then
>that would much appreciated.

Netmax is the daddy! He is the person whose advice I respect
here above all else (no offence to anyone, there are loads of
people with good advice!) so if you're in doubt, he's the guy
to listen to first of all.

(Sorry if I embarrassed you Netmax!)

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[NetMax]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The temperature requirements for short-bodied Goldies versus long-body
>> is quite different. Your Goldfish are much more 'tropical' than
>> Comets, but are not true tropicals. C.auratus evolved in colder
>> waters, but fancy goldfish are typically hatched and grown in much
>> warmer waters than you would expect.
>
> And yet my fancies thrived in outdoor 150g pools here in zone 6! The
> water would reach the high 30s in the winter. I had telescope eyes,
> orandas, pearlscales, common fantails and moors out there for several
> years.

Yes, but ponds are a completely different kettle of fish ;~). The get to
really swim, eat all day, have a varied diet of algaes, insect larvae and
assorted bugs, frogs and anything else which fell in and fit in their
mouth. I don't doubt they would thrive.

Like you, I also don't think they would do so badly in a cool-water
aquarium. I just didn't like the idea of cooling the environment they
were born/hatched in.

> This is particularly true with Asian sourced fish, where
>> the fish-farming is a well established science. North-American raised
>> Goldies typically use slightly lower temperatures (in the mid-70s), at
>> least as I'm told by my suppliers. One of my suppliers (who raised
>> only commercial Goldfish, particularly for specialty stores) came to
>> our city and inspected my store. His recommendations were to include
>> a bit of salt in all water changes, use heaters for all the tanks, set
>> the temperature for 76F and then the usual stuff (diverse diet, light
>> fish-load, gravel vacuum & water change frequently etc etc). He said
>> it was a common mistake, applying the water conditions of Comets to
>> Fancy Goldfish, and it was injurious to fish which have been born &
>> raised in more tropical (and pampered) conditions.
>
> And I was told they raise them under warmer conditions to get maximum
> growth - the motive was *profit,* not the inability to cope with
> cooler water. Who and what is one to believe? My experience tells me
> the fancies are as hardy (temperature wise) as the Comets and
> Shubunkins where water temperatures are concerned. But I'm only going
> by my own experience. Acclimating them may be the big thing here. And
> there's the old saying, "If you treat them like hothouse flowers, you
> will have hothouse flowers."

re: motive of growth, absolutely!! The Asian breeders were getting
tremendous growth rates doing this, and spending less on medications.
Less bacteria thrive at the higher temperatures and higher salinity
levels. Unfortunately that became the defacto way to raise them. I'm
not sure we should now be dropping their temperatures significantly.

>> You should always take these advices with a grain of salt ;~).
>
> Amen!
>
> I've also
>> had Fancy Goldfish in a 70F indoor pond and they seemed fine (though a
>> bit lost with all the swimming room ;~). Keeping to stable higher
>> temperatures will do certain things. It decreased the amount of
>> dissolved O2, so you want a ligh fish-load and good
>> aeration/filtration (you are ok). It increases their metabolism, so
>> they eat more (again the need for good filtration, and water change
>> routine), and they have brighter colours and grow faster.
>
> You should see their colors when raised outdoors!!! Indoor GF are pale
> by comparison. I may put mine outside for the summer if I have space
> behind the house for "one more" 150g pool. ;-)

Yep, must be a lot of protein in all that mosquito larvae. OT, I spent
the afternoon helping restore a collapsed roof over a 20,000g Koi pond
today. This is definitely the wrong country for this stuff, but fanatics
(and I generally include myself in that category) are universal :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Jan 2006 09:44:41 -0800, Mellie101 > wrote:
>> Don't want to take up too much of anybody's time as i appreciate all
>>the help given here, so if somebody knows a good site or info page then
>>that would much appreciated.
>
> Netmax is the daddy! He is the person whose advice I respect
> here above all else (no offence to anyone, there are loads of
> people with good advice!) so if you're in doubt, he's the guy
> to listen to first of all.
>
> (Sorry if I embarrassed you Netmax!)

*blush*

I try not to steer anyone wrong, and there is always better experts and
more experienced people around to help me.

You're asking for a good site that talks about salt use for aquariums
*rustles through bookmarks* aha, ta da
http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm about 7 paragraphs down.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> And yet my fancies thrived in outdoor 150g pools here in zone 6! The
>> water would reach the high 30s in the winter. I had telescope eyes,
>> orandas, pearlscales, common fantails and moors out there for several
>> years.
>
> Yes, but ponds are a completely different kettle of fish ;~). The get to
> really swim, eat all day, have a varied diet of algaes, insect larvae and
> assorted bugs, frogs and anything else which fell in and fit in their
> mouth. I don't doubt they would thrive.

All these things I have out back are 150g children's pools from Wally World
and a small filter. :-) You can see them on my website. I can't put
fancies in the ponds proper because they'd never compete with the koi, some
more than a foot long.

> Like you, I also don't think they would do so badly in a cool-water
> aquarium. I just didn't like the idea of cooling the environment they
> were born/hatched in.

I'm not sure what you mean (cooling the environment they were born in) since
few people breed their own. I have them outside now in zone 6 in the same
pools they were born in and they're COLD now. They'll really become active
when the temps reach about 55F in late March or early April.

>> And I was told they raise them under warmer conditions to get maximum
>> growth - the motive was *profit,* not the inability to cope with cooler
>> water.

> re: motive of growth, absolutely!! The Asian breeders were getting
> tremendous growth rates doing this, and spending less on medications. Less
> bacteria thrive at the higher temperatures and higher salinity levels.
> Unfortunately that became the defacto way to raise them. I'm not sure we
> should now be dropping their temperatures significantly.

May I ask why? What would happen? Outdoors the temp' naturally drops in
the fall. I don't think *indoor* GF would have significantly colder temps
to deal with. Most people keep their homes above 68F that I ever knew.
Outdoor fish are a different story. It doesn't seem to harm them in any
way, and they will breed reliably after a winter outdoors. I found indoor
GF do not breed reliably.

>> You should see their colors when raised outdoors!!! Indoor GF are pale
>> by comparison. I may put mine outside for the summer if I have space
>> behind the house for "one more" 150g pool. ;-)

> Yep, must be a lot of protein in all that mosquito larvae.

That and all that algae containing color pigments, sunlight, more plants to
munch and who know how many bugs and insects a day that fall in and become
snacks........

OT, I spent
> the afternoon helping restore a collapsed roof over a 20,000g Koi pond
> today. This is definitely the wrong country for this stuff, but fanatics
> (and I generally include myself in that category) are universal :o).

Hummmm,.... keeping outdoor fish in ca has got to be the pits. Look on the
bright side, you got fresh air and exercise. Speaking for myself I would
move to Florida tomorrow.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> And yet my fancies thrived in outdoor 150g pools here in zone 6! The
>>> water would reach the high 30s in the winter. I had telescope eyes,
>>> orandas, pearlscales, common fantails and moors out there for several
>>> years.
>>
>> Yes, but ponds are a completely different kettle of fish ;~). The get
>> to really swim, eat all day, have a varied diet of algaes, insect
>> larvae and assorted bugs, frogs and anything else which fell in and
>> fit in their mouth. I don't doubt they would thrive.
>
> All these things I have out back are 150g children's pools from Wally
> World and a small filter. :-) You can see them on my website. I
> can't put fancies in the ponds proper because they'd never compete with
> the koi, some more than a foot long.

understood

>> Like you, I also don't think they would do so badly in a cool-water
>> aquarium. I just didn't like the idea of cooling the environment they
>> were born/hatched in.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean (cooling the environment they were born in)
> since few people breed their own. I have them outside now in zone 6 in
> the same pools they were born in and they're COLD now. They'll really
> become active when the temps reach about 55F in late March or early
> April.

Fancies bred for stores have never been exposed to cyclical temperature
changes as seen by outdoor fish. Without really knowing what harms or
stresses a fish, the rule of thumb is to not stray too far from the
conditions they were born & raised in.

>>> And I was told they raise them under warmer conditions to get maximum
>>> growth - the motive was *profit,* not the inability to cope with
>>> cooler water.
>
>> re: motive of growth, absolutely!! The Asian breeders were getting
>> tremendous growth rates doing this, and spending less on medications.
>> Less bacteria thrive at the higher temperatures and higher salinity
>> levels. Unfortunately that became the defacto way to raise them. I'm
>> not sure we should now be dropping their temperatures significantly.
>
> May I ask why? What would happen? Outdoors the temp' naturally drops
> in the fall. I don't think *indoor* GF would have significantly
> colder temps to deal with. Most people keep their homes above 68F that
> I ever knew. Outdoor fish are a different story. It doesn't seem to
> harm them in any way, and they will breed reliably after a winter
> outdoors. I found indoor GF do not breed reliably.

see above, it's a question of acclimation, and whether the fish should be
acclimated to something as an adult, which it has never been exposed to.
The period when fish adapt well is as juveniles. You would not expose an
adult Oranda to outdoor pond conditions any more than you would expose an
older Koi to warm steady-state aquariums conditions. To do so when they
were juveniles would be technically acceptable (though there are those
who would still argue its appropriateness).

>>> You should see their colors when raised outdoors!!! Indoor GF are
>>> pale by comparison. I may put mine outside for the summer if I have
>>> space behind the house for "one more" 150g pool. ;-)
>
>> Yep, must be a lot of protein in all that mosquito larvae.
>
> That and all that algae containing color pigments, sunlight, more
> plants to munch and who know how many bugs and insects a day that fall
> in and become snacks........
>
> OT, I spent
>> the afternoon helping restore a collapsed roof over a 20,000g Koi pond
>> today. This is definitely the wrong country for this stuff, but
>> fanatics (and I generally include myself in that category) are
>> universal :o).
>
> Hummmm,.... keeping outdoor fish in ca has got to be the pits. Look on
> the bright side, you got fresh air and exercise. Speaking for myself I
> would move to Florida tomorrow.

re: fresh air & exercise, I'll sleep well tonight. I wish we had taken
pictures. We used a floatation device to cross to the middle of the
pond, on top of the collapsed roof, and shovelled/chipped out the
ice/slush/snow, and successfully used ropes to restore the roof trusses
and raise the plastic roof. All this to extend Koi season.

re: Florida, for Liberal gun-controlled Canadians, the US doesn't
generally look especially appealing to move to. Always nice to *visit*
though.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>
>

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> Hummmm,.... keeping outdoor fish in ca has got to be the pits. Look on
>> the bright side, you got fresh air and exercise. Speaking for myself I
>> would move to Florida tomorrow.
>
> re: fresh air & exercise, I'll sleep well tonight. I wish we had taken
> pictures. We used a floatation device to cross to the middle of the pond,
> on top of the collapsed roof, and shovelled/chipped out the
> ice/slush/snow, and successfully used ropes to restore the roof trusses
> and raise the plastic roof. All this to extend Koi season.

Your winters are very long. That's a long time for the fish to go without
food. Here in zone 6 the fish must survive for at least 4 months on stored
fat.

> re: Florida, for Liberal gun-controlled Canadians, the US doesn't
> generally look especially appealing to move to. Always nice to *visit*
> though.

I was up in Banff and vicinity back in 1978,.... loved it there! :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On 22 Jan 2006 09:44:41 -0800, Mellie101 > wrote:
>>
>>>Don't want to take up too much of anybody's time as i appreciate all
>>>the help given here, so if somebody knows a good site or info page then
>>>that would much appreciated.
>>
>>Netmax is the daddy! He is the person whose advice I respect
>>here above all else (no offence to anyone, there are loads of
>>people with good advice!) so if you're in doubt, he's the guy
>>to listen to first of all.
>>
>>(Sorry if I embarrassed you Netmax!)
>
>
> *blush*
>
> I try not to steer anyone wrong, and there is always better experts and
> more experienced people around to help me.
>
> You're asking for a good site that talks about salt use for aquariums
> *rustles through bookmarks* aha, ta da
> http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm about 7 paragraphs down.

That article has a problem. Nitrite spikes during cycling usally go
well above 0.1 ppm. I've seen as high as 2-3 ppm at the peak of a cycle
without plants, and 1 ppm is very normal. To offset the toxicity from
that much nitrite you would need 1 tsp/10 or 20 gallons, not 1 tsp/294
gallons. (You'd also need a water change.)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
t...
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>On 22 Jan 2006 09:44:41 -0800, Mellie101 > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Don't want to take up too much of anybody's time as i appreciate all
>>>>the help given here, so if somebody knows a good site or info page then
>>>>that would much appreciated.
>>>
>>>Netmax is the daddy! He is the person whose advice I respect
>>>here above all else (no offence to anyone, there are loads of
>>>people with good advice!) so if you're in doubt, he's the guy
>>>to listen to first of all.
>>>
>>>(Sorry if I embarrassed you Netmax!)
>>
>>
>> *blush*
>>
>> I try not to steer anyone wrong, and there is always better experts and
>> more experienced people around to help me.
>>
>> You're asking for a good site that talks about salt use for aquariums
>> *rustles through bookmarks* aha, ta da
>> http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm about 7 paragraphs down.
>
> That article has a problem. Nitrite spikes during cycling usally go well
> above 0.1 ppm. I've seen as high as 2-3 ppm at the peak of a cycle
> without plants, and 1 ppm is very normal. To offset the toxicity from
> that much nitrite you would need 1 tsp/10 or 20 gallons, not 1 tsp/294
> gallons. (You'd also need a water change.)
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

You see what I was saying about experts being around ;~).

Good catch, can't take their instructions too literally. So the dosage
should be back at the more typical tsp per 10g, or even tsp per 5g for
salt-tolerant fishes.
--
www.NetMax.tk