New Aquarium - dying fish

[[email protected]]

Hello all, Here's another new aquarium problem.

I have a 26 gallon setup with a Whisper Power filter (30 gallon
capacity) and heater. We did as much research as possible on setting
up a new tank including the nitrogen cycle, how to add new fish etc,
but I think the biggest problem is all the conflicting information that
is around, not only on the internet but the 'experts' at the pet
stores.

Nevertheless, we filled the tank and ran the filter and heater for a
week, then took a water sample in to be tested. The person at the
un-named pet store told us that every thing looked good. We expained
to them that this is our first tank and that we have been running it
for a week and wanted to make sure that it was ready for fish, even
though the water was a little cloudy. They assured us that it was ok.

So, we purchased 4 fish:
2 Mollys (males, dalmation and silver)
1 Swordtail (male)
1 Guppy. (female)

After the first week, they seemed to be doing fine. The only thing we
noticed is that the dalmation molly chases the silver one around and
the water was still a little cloudy.

About half way through the second week (Wednesday), I noticed the
Silver molly lying on the bottom, not moving much. I did a 25% water
change. On Saturday morning, he was dead. Another water test showed
no problems.

At that time, we noticed the swordtail was constantly hiding under a
rock. I also noticed white specks on his fins and thought it might be
Ick. Last night, I added a dose of Jungle Ick Clear and this morning,
the swortail was dead. It could have been Ick on the silver one that
died, but it was hard to see due to the color of the fish.

Now, the dalmation molly seems to be fine. The guppy is now hanging
out near the top of the tank, not doing a whole lot . . . no visible
signs of Ick, but not acting right.

Did we just not wait long enough before putting fish in the tank or Is
this a bad Ick outbreak? If neither, then any ideas?

Any suggestions are more than appreciated.

Jon

[Koi-lo]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello all, Here's another new aquarium problem.
>
> So, we purchased 4 fish:
> 2 Mollys (males, dalmation and silver)
> 1 Swordtail (male)
> 1 Guppy. (female)
>
> After the first week, they seemed to be doing fine. The only thing we
> noticed is that the dalmation molly chases the silver one around and
> the water was still a little cloudy.

Mollies do better with salt in their water.

> About half way through the second week (Wednesday), I noticed the
> Silver molly lying on the bottom, not moving much. I did a 25% water
> change. On Saturday morning, he was dead. Another water test showed
> no problems.

What water tests were you performing? There was no ammonia or nitrite
readings at all? What was the PH?

> At that time, we noticed the swordtail was constantly hiding under a
> rock. I also noticed white specks on his fins and thought it might be
> Ick. Last night, I added a dose of Jungle Ick Clear and this morning,
> the swortail was dead. It could have been Ick on the silver one that
> died, but it was hard to see due to the color of the fish.

They would still have showed up as white spots, like grains of sugar.

> Now, the dalmation molly seems to be fine. The guppy is now hanging
> out near the top of the tank, not doing a whole lot . . . no visible
> signs of Ick, but not acting right.

Do another test of the water, especially for ammonia and nitrites.

> Did we just not wait long enough before putting fish in the tank or Is
> this a bad Ick outbreak? If neither, then any ideas?

I add fish as soon as I set tanks up. I dechlorinate the water first of
course. :-)

> Any suggestions are more than appreciated.
>
> Jon
>
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the response.

When we had the initial tests done (before putting the fish in), we did
not get the exact numbers. The Person at the pet store only told us
that everything looked ok.

After things started going bad a few days ago, I bought a Mardel 5 in 1
test kit. Here are the results:
PH: ~7.6
Hardness: ~120
Alkalinity: ~120
Nitrate: ~0
Nitrite: ~0

I was under the assumption that the test done at the store would check
for ammonia, but I'm not so sure now.

I will go and purchase a test kit for ammonia as well.
BTW, the guppy looks like she's done for now too. It just seems
strange that they would all do fine for a week and a half, now two
(probably about to be three) are dead within 48 hours.

Thanks again.

Jon

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the response.

When we had the initial tests done (before putting the fish in), we did
not get the exact numbers. The Person at the pet store only told us
that everything looked ok.

After things started going bad a few days ago, I bought a Mardel 5 in 1
test kit. Here are the results:
PH: ~7.6
Hardness: ~120
Alkalinity: ~120
Nitrate: ~0
Nitrite: ~0

I was under the assumption that the test done at the store would check
for ammonia, but I'm not so sure now.

I will go and purchase a test kit for ammonia as well.
BTW, the guppy looks like she's done for now too. It just seems
strange that they would all do fine for a week and a half, now two
(probably about to be three) are dead within 48 hours.

Thanks again.

Jon

[Fishman]

One thing you have not mentioned is that you are treating your tap water
with a dechlorinator such as Amquel or Prime. This is a highly recommened
step for aquarists who get their water source from a city supply. The
chloramine and/or chlorine added to tap water can stress or kill fish. The
dechlorinator will neutralize the chlorine.

Also, letting an empty tank sit and run will not establish a nitrogen cycle.
It was a practice sometimes used in the past when only chlorine was used.
The time frame would allow the chlorine to evaporate. Now with the use of
chlroamine, which does not evaporate and the availability of dechlorinators,
this practice is more uncommon.

Fishman

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks for the response.
>
> When we had the initial tests done (before putting the fish in), we did
> not get the exact numbers. The Person at the pet store only told us
> that everything looked ok.
>
> After things started going bad a few days ago, I bought a Mardel 5 in 1
> test kit. Here are the results:
> PH: ~7.6
> Hardness: ~120
> Alkalinity: ~120
> Nitrate: ~0
> Nitrite: ~0
>
> I was under the assumption that the test done at the store would check
> for ammonia, but I'm not so sure now.
>
> I will go and purchase a test kit for ammonia as well.
> BTW, the guppy looks like she's done for now too. It just seems
> strange that they would all do fine for a week and a half, now two
> (probably about to be three) are dead within 48 hours.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Jon
>

[Far Thunder]

The aggressive male may be exasperating things, adding stress to the other fish and/or physically killing them. I had a male
molly so aggressive he could only be housed with African cichlids; he would harass to the point of death any other smallish
fish regardless size of tank and setup. I'd look at adding a bit more "structure" to the tank to allow victims to get out of
his line of site and/or return or rehome this particular fish.
and go from there. Definitely check for ammonia as it doesn't look like your cycle has really even started. white cloudy
water would be a bacterial bloom in response to "food" (ammonia) provided by the fish and any uneaten fish food. .did you
seed the tank with bacteria at all?

HTH
lila pilamaya


> wrote in message oups.com...
> Thanks for the response.
>
> When we had the initial tests done (before putting the fish in), we did
> not get the exact numbers. The Person at the pet store only told us
> that everything looked ok.
>
> After things started going bad a few days ago, I bought a Mardel 5 in 1
> test kit. Here are the results:
> PH: ~7.6
> Hardness: ~120
> Alkalinity: ~120
> Nitrate: ~0
> Nitrite: ~0
>
> I was under the assumption that the test done at the store would check
> for ammonia, but I'm not so sure now.
>
> I will go and purchase a test kit for ammonia as well.
> BTW, the guppy looks like she's done for now too. It just seems
> strange that they would all do fine for a week and a half, now two
> (probably about to be three) are dead within 48 hours.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Jon
>
>



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[[email protected]]

I'm sorry for leaving that out. Yes, we do use AquaSafe Water
Conditioner, following the instructions on the bottle.

When we ran the tank for a week before putting the fish in, it had
gravel and other 'decorations'. Are you saying that this doesn't do
anything?

Thanks.
Jon


Fishman wrote:
> One thing you have not mentioned is that you are treating your tap water
> with a dechlorinator such as Amquel or Prime. This is a highly recommened
> step for aquarists who get their water source from a city supply. The
> chloramine and/or chlorine added to tap water can stress or kill fish. The
> dechlorinator will neutralize the chlorine.
>
> Also, letting an empty tank sit and run will not establish a nitrogen cycle.
> It was a practice sometimes used in the past when only chlorine was used.
> The time frame would allow the chlorine to evaporate. Now with the use of
> chlroamine, which does not evaporate and the availability of dechlorinators,
> this practice is more uncommon.
>
> Fishman
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Thanks for the response.
> >
> > When we had the initial tests done (before putting the fish in), we did
> > not get the exact numbers. The Person at the pet store only told us
> > that everything looked ok.
> >
> > After things started going bad a few days ago, I bought a Mardel 5 in 1
> > test kit. Here are the results:
> > PH: ~7.6
> > Hardness: ~120
> > Alkalinity: ~120
> > Nitrate: ~0
> > Nitrite: ~0
> >
> > I was under the assumption that the test done at the store would check
> > for ammonia, but I'm not so sure now.
> >
> > I will go and purchase a test kit for ammonia as well.
> > BTW, the guppy looks like she's done for now too. It just seems
> > strange that they would all do fine for a week and a half, now two
> > (probably about to be three) are dead within 48 hours.
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> > Jon
> >

[LM]

Running the tank just with water and decoration and filter will not
start the tank cycling. You need some organic decomposition (ammonia)
for this to happen.

I highly recommend you to go to this web site and read up on cycling
the tank:

http://faq.thekrib.com/

best resource for people who are new to keeping fish. I read it
religiously when I started few years ago.

typically the organic component required to start the process comes
from fish waste (fish poop & pee) and any uneaten food. Most people
end up going through cycling the tank with few live hardy fish (danios,
whiteclouds, etc. something not too expensive as you will lose fish,
but also very robust that has the best chance of surviving through the
cycling of the tank), and then expect to lose some fish along the way.

if you want to do what is called "fishless cycling", some people have
put in measured amounts of ammonia at a set schedule in the tank to
start the cycling process. I've never done this process, so I don't
know how much ammonia you put in vs tank size, etc. you may want to
search the web on this. some has done this by sprinking fish food in
the tank to add the organics to start decompose and get the cycle
starting. since you don't have any fish in the tank, you're not
worried about toxicity to the fish.. so some has said that this forces
the tank to cycle faster than you would with fish in there.

once the cycling starts using live fish, usually it takes about a
month. first week or two, the ammonia will spike very high, the most
lethal stage for the fish. then as the bacteria starts taking hold,
the ammonia will start breaking down into nitrites. Nitrites are also
toxic, but less toxic than ammonia... these Nitrites will eventually
be broken down to nitrates, which is harmful only in very high
concentrations. phase of changing the nitrites to nitrates usually
takes another 2-3 weeks.

so, during the first month, you want to check the ammonia and nitrite
levels quite religiously. if the levels get too high, you may want to
do some water change.. but you don't want to do this too much as as you
dilute the toxins, it slows the cycling of the tank (will take longer).
so you sort of want to keep it as toxic as possible but not quite
lethal for the fish in the tank...

so, my thought is that your fish is dying out because of the initial
cycling. but now that the fish has been in there already, I would keep
the tank running (don't throw the water out), add couple more hardy
fish (zebra danios), and keep the cycling process going. at the end of
1mo point, start checking nitrite levels to see if you can start adding
more fish.

becareful when adding new fish. don't overload it too quickly..

linda

[[email protected]]

Thanks to all who have replied.

I did an ammonia test and it shows about 3 ppm (Harmful, according to
the bottle).

I'm down to 1 dalmation mollie now, he 'seems' to be doing ok. With
the ammonia at this level, I'm tempted to do another partial water
change or get some ammonia clear, but as I understand now, this is
probably necessary for the cycle and I should leave it alone and let
the cycle continue.

Should I maybe two more 'hardy' fish now or wait and see what happens
with the one that is in there now?

Again, thanks to everyone. This is definitely a learning experience.

[Gill Passman]

wrote:
> Thanks to all who have replied.
>
> I did an ammonia test and it shows about 3 ppm (Harmful, according to
> the bottle).
>
> I'm down to 1 dalmation mollie now, he 'seems' to be doing ok. With
> the ammonia at this level, I'm tempted to do another partial water
> change or get some ammonia clear, but as I understand now, this is
> probably necessary for the cycle and I should leave it alone and let
> the cycle continue.
>
> Should I maybe two more 'hardy' fish now or wait and see what happens
> with the one that is in there now?
>
> Again, thanks to everyone. This is definitely a learning experience.
>

Sorry for your lost fishes :-( Not a nice start to what I'm sure that
you will find a very rewarding hobby.

Firstly if your ammonia is at that level do a 20-30% water change today,
and continue at around 20% until the levels come down. Monitor for
nitrite as this will be the next stage.

As you only have a Molly left you could add some aquarium salt - this
will ease things for him. I'm not sure if you have live plants - try
getting some as these will take up some of the ammonia/nitrite as food.

When I was starting off I remember it being suggested that I cut back on
feeding...every other day for a week - less waste products I guess.

Whatever you do don't go out and buy any more fish until
ammonia/nitrites are zero. Then add only a few at a time - with my first
tanks I used to wait a fortnight before adding more...

Good luck
Gill

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Nevertheless, we filled the tank and ran the filter and
> heater for a
> week, then took a water sample in to be tested. The
> person at the
> un-named pet store told us that every thing looked good.

I prefer fish-less starts (and bacteria feeding).

> even
> though the water was a little cloudy.
^^
A reason to change 2/3 water daily?

> So, we purchased 4 fish:
> 2 Mollys (males, dalmation and silver)
> 1 Swordtail (male)

Only one male and some female Mollys (Swordtails).

> Did we just not wait long enough before putting fish in
> the tank

Well..

> or Is this a bad Ick outbreak?

Well, the most fish in good water and with stable immune
system seem to be able to control I. multifiliis..

--
cu
Marco

[Flash Wilson]

On 22 Jan 2006 08:23:06 -0800, > wrote:
>Nevertheless, we filled the tank and ran the filter and heater for a
>week, then took a water sample in to be tested. The person at the
>un-named pet store told us that every thing looked good. We expained

For sure it looked good - you haven't done anything to it! By
which I mean, you haven't put any fish in so there is nothing
producing ammonia...

>About half way through the second week (Wednesday), I noticed the
>Silver molly lying on the bottom, not moving much. I did a 25% water
>change. On Saturday morning, he was dead. Another water test showed
>no problems.

What do you mean by "no problems"? It sounds like a cycling tank,
what were the ammonia and nitrite values?

>Did we just not wait long enough before putting fish in the tank or Is
>this a bad Ick outbreak? If neither, then any ideas?

If you haven't cycled the tank then the fish will have triggered it...
So you need the first month, in which the tank cycles, to pay attention
to the water parameters and to watch your fish like a hawk!

Ich tends to come along when fish are already stressed - a healthy
tank should never have ich. If you had it, your fish were unhappy,
maybe it was being new/moved, maybe it was the water conditions.

I think the best thing is to read up on cycling a tank, and then
test the water and see where you're at.

One thing - if your fish all die, don't change the water! Just keep
the filter going, their waste will be enough to get the cycle going
and the good bacteria growing in the filter, so keep things going
and keep the up with the water measurements, then when it looks
like the cycle is over, get some more fish...

Hope this helps!



--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Fishman]

Sounds as though your tank needs still complete its cycle. In order for
this to happen, you need to allow the benenifital bacteria to have a food
supply in order to get established. This means letting the system have some
ammonia. If you do something to remove the ammonia, the first stage of
benefitial bacteria will not get established and your tank will not cycle.

This makes it a delicate situation: Remove the ammonia and the tank is a
deadly trap for your fish. Keep the ammonia and let the tank run it's
course and the fish also potentially die. You can do things to reduce (not
remove) the ammonia. This will allow the tank to cycle but will require a
longer period of time. Your fish will still be stresses but the toxicity of
the water will be less.

If you have access to a friend's established tank and they are willing to
donate a small amount of their filter media to "kick start" your tank's
cycle.

Fishman


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks to all who have replied.
>
> I did an ammonia test and it shows about 3 ppm (Harmful, according to
> the bottle).
>
> I'm down to 1 dalmation mollie now, he 'seems' to be doing ok. With
> the ammonia at this level, I'm tempted to do another partial water
> change or get some ammonia clear, but as I understand now, this is
> probably necessary for the cycle and I should leave it alone and let
> the cycle continue.
>
> Should I maybe two more 'hardy' fish now or wait and see what happens
> with the one that is in there now?
>
> Again, thanks to everyone. This is definitely a learning experience.
>

[Larry Blanchard]

wrote:

> I did an ammonia test and it shows about 3 ppm (Harmful, according to
> the bottle).

IIRC, the water conditioners turn ammonia into something harmless, but
it still shows up on the tests. Read the bottle labels.

--
It's turtles, all the way down