Need Help - Some Kind of Plague Killing Plants/Fish

[[email protected]]

Hi all,

I've been in the hobby for a number of years now and this is my second
freshwater tank. It's 75G and (was) planted quite heavily. I've been
doing everything by the book, water changes every 2 weeks, adding
fertilizers as needed. I'm adding micronutrients, iron and potassium
sulphate. I've been balancing them as described in this paper
(http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/algae.html) in order to avoid algae
problems. I am also adding CO2 for the plants.

Anyways, everything seemed to be working out very well, my fish were
happy my plants were bright green and flourishing until a few weeks
ago. Everything just COLLAPSED. All the sudden the fish started acting
sick, and I began to notice some kind of red clumps flying out of my
canister filter out take.

I popped the filter open and it was full of red "goo". It was
everywhere, and I've just recently cleaned less than a month ago too.
I've never seen anything clog up my filter that fast. Soon after, this
"red goo" covered my gravel to the point where it is now tinted red.

But here's the kicker, all the plants became instantly covered in
white cotton like, but clear, substance. This thing turns black, soon
after appearing and later begins to have these little red clumps
growing out of it. I assume these are the red clumps I was seeing
flying out of the filter initially.

This stuff can be easily removed mechanically by just shaking the
plants vigorously, but is comes back in literally 24 hours. It grows
so fast that it is impractical to remove it in this way.

I apologies for using words like goo, stuff, and clumps to describe
this but I just don't know what it is. I know it is definitely not
algae.

I try to keep my water chemistry within check, pH, KH, GH, Nitrate,
Ammonia, Phosphate, Iron, CO2, everything checks out ok. In order to
remedy this I've tried doing water changes every other day, didn't
help at all. Once I started loosing fish to this thing I began trying
several treatments: I put in a general Fungus/Bacteria remedy from
jungle (called “Fungus Clear”), it had no discernable effect. Then I
started going on the assumption that this is some form of
cyanobacteria, I'm currently trying erythromycin (Marycyn 2.5 mg/L),
this is the second day of treatment and the despite the medication the
disease came back overnight stronger than ever.

Many of my plants and fish are dead. I'm at a loss on what to do next
so I'm posting my story here in hopes of some advice.

Here are some pictures of the culprit:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07066.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07067.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07068.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07070.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07071.JPG


Thank You,
Alex

[Richard Sexton]

It's just new tank syndrome. Fish waste and uneaten food
contributed to a buildup of ammonia in a new tank
and the algae succession started.

Tear it down, bleach the gravel and filter, set it back up.
or keep diatoming it and chaging water, eventually it'll be clean
again. I'd tear it down at this point frnkly.

And for heavens sake satop using crap like fungus and (worse!)
antobiotics - they have no pleace in a planted display tak
at all. They fine for what they do but that is to treat a sick
or injured fish in some other container of water!

The antobiotic use is especially distubing:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/

Also, I would hesitate to call this tank "heavilyu planted". If
you can still squeeze more plants in, it's not heavil planted.

Try a thick layer of hornwort, that's a good way to deal with starting
up a tank. and uh, you really should be changing water at least twice as
often. A weekly water change is better than a biweekly one twice as
large.



--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[[email protected]]

> It's just new tank syndrome.

This is not a new tank, biological filtration was established a long
time ago. Ammonia is nill.

> And for heavens sake satop using crap like fungus and (worse!)
> antobiotics

IMO when the fish start dying from an internal infection, it's time
for antibiotics.

Again, I am absolutely sure this is not ammonia/nirtie/nitrate I am
very stringent on monitoring those things. I chart all my water
chemistry.

> Also, I would hesitate to call this tank "heavilyu planted".

It was heavily planted when this started, as I said, this things kills
off plants quiet quickly. Besides, what's the difference? The plants
are not the problem.

> Try a thick layer of hornwort

This tank has been started a long time ago.

[NetMax]

"Alex" > wrote in message
news:E_QAf.1758$Jn1.579@trndny01...
> Hi all,
>
> I've been in the hobby for a number of years now and this is my second
> freshwater tank. It's 75G and (was) planted quite heavily. I've been
> doing everything by the book, water changes every 2 weeks, adding
> fertilizers as needed. I'm adding micronutrients, iron and potassium
> sulphate. I've been balancing them as described in this paper
> (http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/algae.html) in order to avoid algae
> problems. I am also adding CO2 for the plants.
>
> Anyways, everything seemed to be working out very well, my fish were
> happy my plants were bright green and flourishing until a few weeks
> ago. Everything just COLLAPSED. All the sudden the fish started acting
> sick, and I began to notice some kind of red clumps flying out of my
> canister filter out take.
>
> I popped the filter open and it was full of red "goo". It was
> everywhere, and I've just recently cleaned less than a month ago too.
> I've never seen anything clog up my filter that fast. Soon after, this
> "red goo" covered my gravel to the point where it is now tinted red.
>
> But here's the kicker, all the plants became instantly covered in
> white cotton like, but clear, substance. This thing turns black, soon
> after appearing and later begins to have these little red clumps
> growing out of it. I assume these are the red clumps I was seeing
> flying out of the filter initially.
>
> This stuff can be easily removed mechanically by just shaking the
> plants vigorously, but is comes back in literally 24 hours. It grows
> so fast that it is impractical to remove it in this way.
>
> I apologies for using words like goo, stuff, and clumps to describe
> this but I just don't know what it is. I know it is definitely not
> algae.
>
> I try to keep my water chemistry within check, pH, KH, GH, Nitrate,
> Ammonia, Phosphate, Iron, CO2, everything checks out ok. In order to
> remedy this I've tried doing water changes every other day, didn't
> help at all. Once I started loosing fish to this thing I began trying
> several treatments: I put in a general Fungus/Bacteria remedy from
> jungle (called "Fungus Clear"), it had no discernable effect. Then I
> started going on the assumption that this is some form of
> cyanobacteria, I'm currently trying erythromycin (Marycyn 2.5 mg/L),
> this is the second day of treatment and the despite the medication the
> disease came back overnight stronger than ever.
>
> Many of my plants and fish are dead. I'm at a loss on what to do next
> so I'm posting my story here in hopes of some advice.
>
> Here are some pictures of the culprit:
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07066.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07067.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07068.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07070.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07071.JPG
>
>
> Thank You,
> Alex


Some water parameters (NH3/4, NO2, NO3, pH, kH) of before and after,
might provide some clues. The only thing I can thing of is that your
filter stopped, went seriously anaerobic, and was restarted, poisoning
the tank and blowing a lot of decaying matter around. The resulting
bacterial imbalance is taking some time to level off. This is only a
wild guess.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>> And for heavens sake satop using crap like fungus and (worse!)
>> antobiotics
>
>IMO when the fish start dying from an internal infection, it's time
>for antibiotics.


IF you've done a culturw and detmined what buf you're fighting anf
IF you use the correct antibiotic and IF it's in some other vessel
of water.

There simeply is noting you can put in a tnak to "cure" it. You
can and should treat sick fish but not in a tank where you don't
know what's going on and could be the source of the trouble anyway.

>Again, I am absolutely sure this is not ammonia/nirtie/nitrate I am
>very stringent on monitoring those things. I chart all my water
>chemistry.

Try changing it instead of charting it. Something is bad in there,
get rid of it.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've been in the hobby for a number of years now and this is my second
> freshwater tank. It's 75G and (was) planted quite heavily. I've been
> doing everything by the book, water changes every 2 weeks, adding
> fertilizers as needed. I'm adding micronutrients, iron and potassium
> sulphate. I've been balancing them as described in this paper
> (http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/algae.html) in order to avoid algae
> problems. I am also adding CO2 for the plants.
>
> Anyways, everything seemed to be working out very well, my fish were
> happy my plants were bright green and flourishing until a few weeks
> ago. Everything just COLLAPSED. All the sudden the fish started acting
> sick, and I began to notice some kind of red clumps flying out of my
> canister filter out take.
>
> I popped the filter open and it was full of red "goo". It was
> everywhere, and I've just recently cleaned less than a month ago too.
> I've never seen anything clog up my filter that fast. Soon after, this
> "red goo" covered my gravel to the point where it is now tinted red.
>
> But here's the kicker, all the plants became instantly covered in
> white cotton like, but clear, substance. This thing turns black, soon
> after appearing and later begins to have these little red clumps
> growing out of it. I assume these are the red clumps I was seeing
> flying out of the filter initially.
>
> This stuff can be easily removed mechanically by just shaking the
> plants vigorously, but is comes back in literally 24 hours. It grows
> so fast that it is impractical to remove it in this way.
>
> I apologies for using words like goo, stuff, and clumps to describe
> this but I just don't know what it is. I know it is definitely not
> algae.
>
> I try to keep my water chemistry within check, pH, KH, GH, Nitrate,
> Ammonia, Phosphate, Iron, CO2, everything checks out ok. In order to
> remedy this I've tried doing water changes every other day, didn't
> help at all. Once I started loosing fish to this thing I began trying
> several treatments: I put in a general Fungus/Bacteria remedy from
> jungle (called “Fungus Clear”), it had no discernable effect. Then I
> started going on the assumption that this is some form of
> cyanobacteria, I'm currently trying erythromycin (Marycyn 2.5 mg/L),
> this is the second day of treatment and the despite the medication the
> disease came back overnight stronger than ever.
>
> Many of my plants and fish are dead. I'm at a loss on what to do next
> so I'm posting my story here in hopes of some advice.
>
> Here are some pictures of the culprit:
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07066.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07067.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07068.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07070.JPG
> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeofuds/aquaria/DSC07071.JPG
>
>
> Thank You,
> Alex
>
Is your tank any better? If the stuff is still around it's probably
erythromycin resistant cyanobacter. You can try stuff like blacking out
the tank for 3 days and starving it of iron and trace elements as well
as mechanical removal.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[[email protected]]

> Some water parameters (NH3/4, NO2, NO3, pH, kH) of before and after,
> might provide some clues. The only thing I can thing of is that
your
> filter stopped, went seriously anaerobic, and was restarted,
poisoning
> the tank and blowing a lot of decaying matter around. The resulting
> bacterial imbalance is taking some time to level off. This is only
a
> wild guess.

Well, my water parameters are pretty straight forward:

KH ~ 5-6
pH ~ 7.0-7.4
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = <12ppm

Ammonia ~ 0
IIRC Ammonium can not exist in large quantities at pH > 7.0

All of those stay within those ranges. My tap water is pretty high on
KH. I used to do peat filtering but now switched to a (NON PHOSPHATE)
Seachem acid buffer.

As for the filter theory... I never noticed anything like that.

[[email protected]]

> Is your tank any better? If the stuff is still around it's probably
> erythromycin resistant cyanobacter. You can try stuff like blacking out
> the tank for 3 days and starving it of iron and trace elements as well
> as mechanical removal.

Well, the antibiotic did help stabilize the fish somewhat. I went out and got myself a complete 10 Gal emergency tank and
set that up all ready to go just in case.

Right now I'm doing hand removal of this trash with daily water changes.

As for erythromycin resistant bacteria, I was using this post as a guide
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria/browse_thread/thread/bf28734ae8c2bbba/3e48dc96949854e0> . I've seen articles
where people suggest that a higher dose of antibiotic treatment might do the trick. The problem is, what happens to all the
fish ? :/ Sounds like a recepie for disaster.

I like the idea of starving it, but then the plants will suffer.

What do you think about mechanical removal while _doubling_ fertilizers, maybe the plants can out compete and overtake it?
I do use CO2 and have sufficient light.

[Elaine T]

wrote:
>>Is your tank any better? If the stuff is still around it's probably
>>erythromycin resistant cyanobacter. You can try stuff like blacking out
>>the tank for 3 days and starving it of iron and trace elements as well
>>as mechanical removal.
>
>
> Well, the antibiotic did help stabilize the fish somewhat. I went out and got myself a complete 10 Gal emergency tank and
> set that up all ready to go just in case.
>
> Right now I'm doing hand removal of this trash with daily water changes.
>
> As for erythromycin resistant bacteria, I was using this post as a guide
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria/browse_thread/thread/bf28734ae8c2bbba/3e48dc96949854e0> . I've seen articles
> where people suggest that a higher dose of antibiotic treatment might do the trick. The problem is, what happens to all the
> fish ? :/ Sounds like a recepie for disaster.
>
> I like the idea of starving it, but then the plants will suffer.
>
> What do you think about mechanical removal while _doubling_ fertilizers, maybe the plants can out compete and overtake it?
> I do use CO2 and have sufficient light.

I think doubling _all_ fertilizers is going to cause you problems. Many
cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen. They tend to thrive in planted tanks
when nitrogen levels too low relative to other nutrients. I've cleared
up cyanobacteria infections in planted tanks myself with NO erythromycin
at all by doing the following things:

1) I blacked out the tank for 3 days, siphoning out the dead bacteria
daily. Your plants will be fine, and the cyanobacteria greatly reduced.

3) Filter over fresh carbon to remove DOC from the water.

2) I completely stopped trace element and iron fertilization for about 3
weeks. Higher plants have reserves and can go a few weeks without, but
bacterial cells starve. Plants will also pull iron from the substrate
if you have an iron-rich substrate, and all the water changes you're
doing as you siphon out the dead cyanobacteria will provide some trace
elements for the plants.

3) I had to add nitrate because my tank had only a trace - that was my
main problem. For your tank, be sure there really is 12-15 ppm nitrate.
Then be sure there's plenty of phosphate (1-2 ppm) and potash (dose to
20 ppm). This should get your plants growing faster.

Once the cyanobacteria are less of a problem, you can gradually start
adding traces and iron again, always making sure that NPK are in good
balance.

Hope this helps.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[[email protected]]

Thank You so much Elaine for your thoughtful response, that helps a whole lot. Where would my tank be without you :)

I've followed the blackout procedure and the tank is doing a lot better. The black stuff seems to have subsided, but some of the red stuff is still there. I have a feeling that
it's related to iron (iron consuming bacteria?).

As for the nitrate:

01/16/06: NO3 ~ 12 ppm
12/17/05: NO3 ~ 12 ppm
12/02/05: NO3 ~ 12 ppm
11/06/05: NO3 ~ 15 ppm

These are estimates. I use a TetraTest NO3 test kit. I know it definitely reports higher NO3 concentrations, but I don't remember it ever reporting anything lower. I guess it
could be possible that the test is shot.

I try to keep my phosphate down to ~0 ppm, I've have trouble with beard algae in the past and this did the trick. What I do is add trace, iron, potash, CO2, and plenty of light
to get the plants the use up as much phosphate as possible. Presumably the Nitrate and Phosphate are already there form the fish/food.

I just went ahead and measured the current phosphate, it's at 0.5 ppm.

I'll follow the rest of your advice to stop trace and iron fertilization. I've also removed some light for now, the thinking being that there is an excess of it since there is
no fertilization. Not sure if that makes sense. What about CO2? Not sure what to do on that front either, I guess I'll keep it on.

Thanks Again,
Alex

> I think doubling _all_ fertilizers is going to cause you problems. Many
> cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen. They tend to thrive in planted tanks
> when nitrogen levels too low relative to other nutrients. I've cleared
> up cyanobacteria infections in planted tanks myself with NO erythromycin
> at all by doing the following things:

> 1) I blacked out the tank for 3 days, siphoning out the dead bacteria
> daily. Your plants will be fine, and the cyanobacteria greatly reduced.

> 3) Filter over fresh carbon to remove DOC from the water.

> 2) I completely stopped trace element and iron fertilization for about 3
> weeks. Higher plants have reserves and can go a few weeks without, but
> bacterial cells starve. Plants will also pull iron from the substrate
> if you have an iron-rich substrate, and all the water changes you're
> doing as you siphon out the dead cyanobacteria will provide some trace
> elements for the plants.

> 3) I had to add nitrate because my tank had only a trace - that was my
> main problem. For your tank, be sure there really is 12-15 ppm nitrate.
> Then be sure there's plenty of phosphate (1-2 ppm) and potash (dose to
> 20 ppm). This should get your plants growing faster.

> Once the cyanobacteria are less of a problem, you can gradually start
> adding traces and iron again, always making sure that NPK are in good
> balance.

> Hope this helps.

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Thank You so much Elaine for your thoughtful response, that helps a whole lot. Where would my tank be without you :)
>
> I've followed the blackout procedure and the tank is doing a lot better. The black stuff seems to have subsided, but some of the red stuff is still there. I have a feeling that
> it's related to iron (iron consuming bacteria?).
>
> As for the nitrate:
>
> 01/16/06: NO3 ~ 12 ppm
> 12/17/05: NO3 ~ 12 ppm
> 12/02/05: NO3 ~ 12 ppm
> 11/06/05: NO3 ~ 15 ppm
>
> These are estimates. I use a TetraTest NO3 test kit. I know it definitely reports higher NO3 concentrations, but I don't remember it ever reporting anything lower. I guess it
> could be possible that the test is shot.
>
> I try to keep my phosphate down to ~0 ppm, I've have trouble with beard algae in the past and this did the trick. What I do is add trace, iron, potash, CO2, and plenty of light
> to get the plants the use up as much phosphate as possible. Presumably the Nitrate and Phosphate are already there form the fish/food.
>
> I just went ahead and measured the current phosphate, it's at 0.5 ppm.
>
> I'll follow the rest of your advice to stop trace and iron fertilization. I've also removed some light for now, the thinking being that there is an excess of it since there is
> no fertilization. Not sure if that makes sense. What about CO2? Not sure what to do on that front either, I guess I'll keep it on.
>
> Thanks Again,
> Alex
>

I'm glad to hear that the blackout helped. As I think about it, I did
cut back on the lighting for a few weeks after the blackout. Less light
will certainly slow everything down a bit so you have more time to
figure out what's happening. I'm not sure about the CO2. My BGA
problems were in newly established Flourish Excel tanks. I didn't cut
back on the Excel, but I'm always forgetting doses anyway.

Your nitrates seem fine to me, and your fertilizing routine is just like
mine in my well stocked tanks. My sunlit "jungle" tank (the one where I
had the BGA) requires either a lot of fish or some extra nitrate.

If you think you have iron or iron bacteria then lowering iron makes
sense for sure. I've never had anything reddish in a FW tank so I can't
help you there. What I saw in your tank pictures that was so familiar
were the sheets of blue-green slime everywhere.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com