Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

[Shorty]

I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria.
Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?

I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
fish healthy.

[Dogma Discharge]

Apparently having a *heavily* planted tank will buffer the cycle process but
IMO it is very necessary to have a filter with loads of bio and mechanical
media. Seeing that you have little plants at this stage I would recommend
you get a filter, Aquaclears are my favourite, in my years of keeping fish
these HOB filters do a spiffy job.
--
Kind Regards
Cameron

"Shorty" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
> filter for the bacteria.
> Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
> or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?
>
> I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
> main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
> fish healthy.
>

[Elaine T]

Dogma Discharge wrote:
> Apparently having a *heavily* planted tank will buffer the cycle process but
> IMO it is very necessary to have a filter with loads of bio and mechanical
> media. Seeing that you have little plants at this stage I would recommend
> you get a filter, Aquaclears are my favourite, in my years of keeping fish
> these HOB filters do a spiffy job.
> --
> Kind Regards
> Cameron
>
> "Shorty" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
>>filter for the bacteria.
>>Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
>>or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?
>>
>>I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
>>main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
>>fish healthy.
>>

If you only have a few plants, add the bio balls. If 50% of the gravel
or more is covered with fast-growing plants, you can start reducing the
amount of biofiltration. At 80% of the gravel covered in mature,
fast-growing plants, you can consider removing the filter entirely and
replacing it with a prefiltered powerhead. I've already done this in
one of my tanks and will probably do it for another - it's nice not to
have to do anything but fertilize and change water. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Shorty]

So, you basically move the water around with the powerhead without any
filtration?

That's cool. I suppose I need to wait and get my bio-filtration going
until my plants are more established and dense.

It would be great to run a tank with plants as the only filter.

thanks for the info!

[Elaine T]

Shorty wrote:
> So, you basically move the water around with the powerhead without any
> filtration?

Yep. Or an empty filter, or an airstone for small tanks where I'm using
Flourish Excel.

> That's cool. I suppose I need to wait and get my bio-filtration going
> until my plants are more established and dense.

Yes. Don't try it without lots of established plants.

> It would be great to run a tank with plants as the only filter.
>
> thanks for the info!

You're welcome. It's a lot of fun to get a balanced tank going. I tend
to consider removing the filter in lightly stocked tanks with small,
fully grown fish where I can feed very lightly. I wait until the plants
are growing well enough that nitrate goes to zero if I don't add any.
Then I remove the biomedia from the filter gradually, testing for
ammonia as I go. Once the filter is empty, you can use it for water
circulation or switch to a powerhead. You do have to keep the plants
healthy. If their growth slows down, you no longer have the safety net
of a filter.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Shorty wrote,
>I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
>filter for the bacteria.
>Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
>or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?

A heavily planted tank and a lite bio-load you might get away without a
bio-filter. But, you might have to do more water changes more often.
Keep in mind that ammonia and nitrites are not the only thing a filter
is needed for. You still have DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) and
solid particulate waste to deal with. A build-up of eather, your water
quality slowly deteriorates. I think my tanks are pleasant to look at
because they are heavily planted, but they are *fish* tanks.
As for as filter media goes - there is three things to look for; SSA
(Specific Surface Area), void space and cleanability. Gravel used for a
filter media has a surface area of about 100 to 200 sq. meters per
cubic meter, pood void space, and really hard to clean - making it (at
best) a poor filter media. Plastic has 250 to 300 SSA, ceramic 300 to
350 SSA, matting 350 to 400 SSA, and sponge foam 400 to 500 SSA, void
space just right, and really easy to clean. Why spend the $s on plastic
or ceramic bio-ball type filter media when a much better media is
cheaper (sponge foam)? .................. Frank

[Dick]

On 26 Jan 2006 05:37:57 -0800, "Shorty"
> wrote:

>I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
>filter for the bacteria.
>Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
>or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?
>
>I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
>main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
>fish healthy.

There seems to be different opinions on the subject. I pulled my 4
bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
filters. Further, I don't even turn the filters off anymore, but pull
a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my
bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations,
that is more than 1 inch per gallon.

dick

[Frank]

Dick wrote,
>I pulled my 4
>bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
>filters.

Ever check your DOC levels?

>.........pull
>a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my
>bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations,
>that is more than 1 inch per gallon.

It only takes one sq. meter of surface area with a bio-film to
metabolise nearly one gram of ammonia per day. Filters should remove
*all* three forms of pollution; dissolved compounds such as ammonia,
inorganic pollutants such as phosphate and DOCs, and solid particulate
waste. By removing all the filtering media at once and replacing it
with new, you *are* loosing all the bacteria within your filter. Your
filter becomes nothing but a machanical filter, removing some of the
solid particulate waste, like a pre-filter. If the cartridge, now your
pre-filter isn't cleaned or replaced at least weekly, the solid waste
decomposes within the media and is pumped back into your tank as
dissolved pollutants.DOCs start to turn the water yellow over time and
the water quality drops, unless you do a *lot* of water changing. Mean
while, the heterotroph bacteria that should be in the filter, is now in
your tank at high levels, along with ectoparasites such as flukes and
protozoa which thrive in high organic loaded water. High organics also
stress the fishs immune system and robs the oxygen from the water.

Just my opinion................... Frank

[Koi-Lo]

"Frank" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dick wrote,
>>I pulled my 4
>>bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
>>filters.
>
> Ever check your DOC levels?
========================
A friend told me small snails would clog her bio-wheel filters. I can't
picture this since I never used them. They were probably going after the
bacterial coating. She finally replaced them with Aquaclears that I
recommended.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
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Troll Information:
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~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Altum]

The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate
waste and much of that settles in the root zone. A prefilter takes
care of anything floating in the water.

[Frank]

Altum wrote,
>The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate
>waste and much of that settles in the root zone.

Plants do not remove inorganic pollutants such as DOCs (Dissolved
Organic Compounds = uneaten foods and fish waste) from the water
column. As a matter of fact, a 20% weekly water change still leaves
about 30 days of accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. DOC levels can
be determined by comparing the differences between a chemical hardness
test and the TDS (total dissolved solid) reading from a conductivity
meter. As the DOCs start to accumulate over time, the water starts to
turn yellow and the water quality starts to drop.

>A prefilter takes
>care of anything floating in the water.

Very little solid waste should enter the bio-section. A pre-filter
traps this waste so it can't, or shouldn't. But, if the pre-filter
isn't cleaned at least a couple of times a week, the current (gph -
flow rate) within the filter dissolves the solids (DOCs) much quicker
than if they were left within the tank. As it is, left within the
pre-filter, the filter becomes the source of organic pollution and is
then pumped back into the tank.

>solid particulate
>waste and much of that settles in the root zone.

Pathogenic bacteria such as Aermonas and Pseudomonas bacteria break
down solids and are actually opportunistic Heterotroph bacteria. If
solid waste is left to accumulate within the tank their numbers grow.
Once their numbers are high enough and conditions are right,
opportunistic pathogens turn their attention to the fish. This happens
way more than people think - one of the things it's called is Fin and
Tail Rot! ................ Frank

[fusQuanto]

Frank wrote:
> Dick wrote,
>
>>I pulled my 4
>>bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
>>filters.
>
>
> Ever check your DOC levels?
>
>
>>.........pull
>>a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my
>>bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations,
>>that is more than 1 inch per gallon.
>
>
> It only takes one sq. meter of surface area with a bio-film to
> metabolise nearly one gram of ammonia per day. Filters should remove
> *all* three forms of pollution; dissolved compounds such as ammonia,
> inorganic pollutants such as phosphate and DOCs, and solid particulate
> waste. By removing all the filtering media at once and replacing it
> with new, you *are* loosing all the bacteria within your filter. Your
> filter becomes nothing but a machanical filter, removing some of the
> solid particulate waste, like a pre-filter. If the cartridge, now your
> pre-filter isn't cleaned or replaced at least weekly, the solid waste
> decomposes within the media and is pumped back into your tank as
> dissolved pollutants.DOCs start to turn the water yellow over time and
> the water quality drops, unless you do a *lot* of water changing. Mean
> while, the heterotroph bacteria that should be in the filter, is now in
> your tank at high levels, along with ectoparasites such as flukes and
> protozoa which thrive in high organic loaded water. High organics also
> stress the fishs immune system and robs the oxygen from the water.
>
> Just my opinion................... Frank
>

well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
from filters. i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something, i
removed the wheels to reduce surface turbulence. is there a certain
time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in? (safe meaning that it
wont absorb up the fertilizers). also, melafix requires taking out the
carbon too.

do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra
pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something
in there, is anything needed? my tank is 3 weeks old, moderately to
heavily planted, ~15 fish, mostly loaches

[Frank]

fusQuanto wrote,
>well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
>from filters..........
>also, melafix requires taking out the
>carbon too.
>is there a certain
>time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in?

The only time carbon is needed is to remove dyes, medications and
odors.

>i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something.............

The break down time of DOCs is the most time consuming, so
bio-filtering is improved the longer the polluted water is held within
the media. With the amount of SSA (specific surface area) on a
bio-wheel, it makes them hard to beat. Plus they hold the polluted
water much longer than just being pumped through a filter.

>do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra
>pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something
>in there, is anything needed?

There are three major factors affecting filter media; SSA, void space
and cleanability. Out of all the diferent filter medias (gravel,
plastic, ceramic, matting and foam sponge), foam sponge has the most
SSA, best void space and easyer to clean! I use those green or brown 3M
scrub pads for pre-filter media within my filters and 2 or 3 cut-to-fit
3/4" foam sponges. Pre filters are cleaned at least every other day.
That keeps those 2 or 3 bio-media foam sponges clean enough that I
don't have to squeeze them out in the change water but once or twice a
month............ Frank

[fusQuanto]

Frank wrote:
> fusQuanto wrote,
>
>>well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
>
>>from filters..........
>
>>also, melafix requires taking out the
>>carbon too.
>>is there a certain
>>time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in?
>
>
> The only time carbon is needed is to remove dyes, medications and
> odors.
>
>
>>i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something.............
>
>
> The break down time of DOCs is the most time consuming, so
> bio-filtering is improved the longer the polluted water is held within
> the media. With the amount of SSA (specific surface area) on a
> bio-wheel, it makes them hard to beat. Plus they hold the polluted
> water much longer than just being pumped through a filter.
>
>
>>do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra
>>pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something
>>in there, is anything needed?
>
>
> There are three major factors affecting filter media; SSA, void space
> and cleanability. Out of all the diferent filter medias (gravel,
> plastic, ceramic, matting and foam sponge), foam sponge has the most
> SSA, best void space and easyer to clean! I use those green or brown 3M
> scrub pads for pre-filter media within my filters and 2 or 3 cut-to-fit
> 3/4" foam sponges. Pre filters are cleaned at least every other day.
> That keeps those 2 or 3 bio-media foam sponges clean enough that I
> don't have to squeeze them out in the change water but once or twice a
> month............ Frank
>

what filter do you have?

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Frank > wrote:
>fusQuanto wrote,
>>well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
>>from filters..........

That makes no sense. Who says this?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Frank]

fusQuanto wrote,
>what filter do you have?

I have a 5 gal. tank of neons in a spair bedroom for the grandkids when
they visit. It always has an AquaClear Mini (100gph) on it. One of the
90 gal. tanks for a couple of months now, has had two Marineland's
bio-wheel 330s - great filters. Last week I put two AquaClear 500s on
the other 90 gal. tank. A bit of an overkill (each 500gph), but not as
bad as I thought they were going to be (so for). I run tests and
evaluate aquarium equipment and products for a wholesale house and a
couple of pet stores. ............. Frank

[fusQuanto]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article . com>,
> Frank > wrote:
>
>>fusQuanto wrote,
>>
>>>well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
>>
>>>from filters..........
>
>
> That makes no sense. Who says this?
>

actually its only the melafix that says it, not the ferts. i figured
the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking
up the nutrients? no? im not a chemistry nor biology major so perhaps
you can shed some light. thx

[Frank]

fusQuanto wrote,
>i figured
>the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking
>up the nutrients? no?
>>That makes no sense. Who says this?

Makes sence to me - activated carbon removes; ammonia, nitrite, organic
compounds such as acids, phenolics, proteins, carbohydrates, hormones,
drugs, chemicals, trace elements, and natural metabolic compounds. I
know it removes heavy metals, it sucked the iron right out of my liquid
fertilizer!
.................... Frank

[Gill Passman]

Frank wrote:
> fusQuanto wrote,
>
>>i figured
>>the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking
>>up the nutrients? no?
>>
>>>That makes no sense. Who says this?
>
>
> Makes sence to me - activated carbon removes; ammonia, nitrite, organic
> compounds such as acids, phenolics, proteins, carbohydrates, hormones,
> drugs, chemicals, trace elements, and natural metabolic compounds. I
> know it removes heavy metals, it sucked the iron right out of my liquid
> fertilizer!
> ................... Frank
>
I accidentally left some carbon in one of my planted tanks - result was
the plants were decimated....

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
fusQuanto > wrote:
>>
>> That makes no sense. Who says this?
>>
>
>actually its only the melafix that says it, not the ferts. i figured
>the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking
>up the nutrients? no? im not a chemistry nor biology major so perhaps
>you can shed some light. thx


Ok sure. Carbon filters out long-chain organics. Small molocules
pass tight through. In practical terms if you add say methylene
blue to the water and it's dark blue, carbon will filter that
out quite quickly.

But, if you were say to add salt to the tank, carbon wouldn't
touch it. It does not remove salt.

There are no hard and fast rules about this, but in a very rough
sense, rely on carbon not to remove anything transparent, but any
chemical "big" enouh to have color - well that will be filtered out
by carbon.

Melafix is good stuff, but it smells and looks like something that
would be filtered out by carbon. Not so fertilizers.

Having said that there are people who believe carbon will take
things ouf of the water like copper, iron and the like and its
no good for plants. This is slightly true. Carbon will remove
minicsule amnounts of these thigs, so if you never change water
and use carbon for months the plants may suffer. OTOH I've done
this and if they suffer it's really not so you'd notice.


--
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Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
Frank > wrote:
>>the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking
>>up the nutrients? no?
>>>That makes no sense. Who says this?
>
>Makes sence to me - activated carbon removes; ammonia, nitrite,


Nope.


--
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Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Altum]

Frank wrote:
> Altum wrote,
>
>>The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate
>>waste and much of that settles in the root zone.
>
>
> Plants do not remove inorganic pollutants such as DOCs (Dissolved
> Organic Compounds = uneaten foods and fish waste) from the water
> column. As a matter of fact, a 20% weekly water change still leaves
> about 30 days of accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. DOC levels can
> be determined by comparing the differences between a chemical hardness
> test and the TDS (total dissolved solid) reading from a conductivity
> meter. As the DOCs start to accumulate over time, the water starts to
> turn yellow and the water quality starts to drop.

Actually, I've never had the water in a planted tank turn yellow the
way it does in a fish-only tank. That's why I thought they removed
DOCs. As a general rule, plants use pretty much every molecule they
can "get their hands on." I don't have access to a conductivity meter
so I'll have to take your word for the measurements.

[Frank]

Richard Sexton wrote,
>Nope.

OK, OK - I got carried away, your right :-( , carbon does not remove
transparent inorganics! ............ Frank

[sshaunwatson]

This is a lot of fun, to a balance tank. I tend to Consider the removal of the filter gently placed in the tank is small, Fully grown, where I can feed the fish very light. I wait until the plants Are growing, so that nitrate tends to zero, if I did not add any.