How much aeration needed?

[Shorty]

Yes, another question ...
When starting a planted tank with a few fish. How much aeration do I
need? I want to minimize surface turbulence to keep the injected DIY
CO2 in the tank.

I am using a canister filter. When I make the spray bar move the water
without disturbing the surface I get bubbles and some living things
floating at the surface. When I move the surface around, the stuff seem
to disappear.

[Shorty]

Also... do you recommend surface movement to introduce more oxygen in
the water for the bacteria colony to grow?

[spiral_72]

I shouldn't think O2 would be a problem unless the tank is sparsely
planted or heavily stocked. Plenty of O2 comes in with each water
change and supplements whatever O2 the plants produce.

Lastly, "in my tank" I try to keep the surface agitation to a minimum.
I typically keep the water level, right up to the output of the HOB
filter, so the agitation is essentially none. The tank is moderately
stocked/planted with pearling common especially in the 1-2 days
following a water change. Pearling indicates O2 saturation of the
water, right? YMMV

I'd not worry about it until you notice your fish hanging out near the
surface of the water. Besides, I have always wondered if you can run an
air stone inline with the return water. People do it all the time with
CO2,,,,,, wouldn't O2 dissolve into the water just as readily? A simple
fix.

Just a thought. Good Luck.

http://www.geocities.com/spiral_72/home.html

[David J. Braunegg]

What is "pearling"?

Thanks,
Dave

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The tank is moderately
> stocked/planted with pearling common especially in the 1-2 days
> following a water change. Pearling indicates O2 saturation of the
> water, right? YMMV

[Shorty]

Pearling means bubbles of gas sitting on the surface of the plant.

In this case, it refers to a situation when the water is saturated with
oxygen and the additional oxygen produced by the plants does not
dissolve in the water anymore. Then, you can see the bubbles of oxygen
sitting on the plant.

But if you get this in the first two days of water change, this is more
likely to be all the gas dissolved in your tap water.

I'm not an expert at this so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Elaine T]

Shorty wrote:
> Yes, another question ...
> When starting a planted tank with a few fish. How much aeration do I
> need? I want to minimize surface turbulence to keep the injected DIY
> CO2 in the tank.
>
> I am using a canister filter. When I make the spray bar move the water
> without disturbing the surface I get bubbles and some living things
> floating at the surface. When I move the surface around, the stuff seem
> to disappear.

You need enough to keep your fish from gilling hard and/or gasping at
the surface in the middle of the night when oxygen demand is highest and
production lowest. Gently surface movement is also nice to prevent
surface "scum" from forming.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-lo]

"Shorty" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Pearling means bubbles of gas sitting on the surface of the plant.
>
> In this case, it refers to a situation when the water is saturated with
> oxygen and the additional oxygen produced by the plants does not
> dissolve in the water anymore. Then, you can see the bubbles of oxygen
> sitting on the plant.
>
> But if you get this in the first two days of water change, this is more
> likely to be all the gas dissolved in your tap water.
>
> I'm not an expert at this so correct me if I'm wrong.
=========================
I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta tanks
on a sunny windowsill.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Shorty" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Pearling means bubbles of gas sitting on the surface of the plant.
> >
> > In this case, it refers to a situation when the water is saturated with
> > oxygen and the additional oxygen produced by the plants does not
> > dissolve in the water anymore. Then, you can see the bubbles of oxygen
> > sitting on the plant.
> >
> > But if you get this in the first two days of water change, this is more
> > likely to be all the gas dissolved in your tap water.
> >
> > I'm not an expert at this so correct me if I'm wrong.
> =========================
> I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta tanks
> on a sunny windowsill.
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

=========================
I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
tanks
on a sunny windowsill.

Tanks???
You have them in tiny little bowls. Those are not tanks.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Shorty" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > Pearling means bubbles of gas sitting on the surface of the plant.
>> >
>> > In this case, it refers to a situation when the water is saturated with
>> > oxygen and the additional oxygen produced by the plants does not
>> > dissolve in the water anymore. Then, you can see the bubbles of oxygen
>> > sitting on the plant.
>> >
>> > But if you get this in the first two days of water change, this is more
>> > likely to be all the gas dissolved in your tap water.
>> >
>> > I'm not an expert at this so correct me if I'm wrong.
>> =========================
>> I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
>> tanks
>> on a sunny windowsill.
>> --
>>
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> Aquariums since 1952
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>> Troll Information:
>> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> =========================
> I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
> tanks
> on a sunny windowsill.
>
> Tanks???
> You have them in tiny little bowls. Those are not tanks.
======================
Check my new aquarium webpage. BTW do you keep your bettas with gravel and
plants? My bettas have always had gravel and plants. It's cruel to keep
them any other way as I'm sure you agree. How do you make sure everyone who
buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Shorty" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > Pearling means bubbles of gas sitting on the surface of the plant.
> >> >
> >> > In this case, it refers to a situation when the water is saturated with
> >> > oxygen and the additional oxygen produced by the plants does not
> >> > dissolve in the water anymore. Then, you can see the bubbles of oxygen
> >> > sitting on the plant.
> >> >
> >> > But if you get this in the first two days of water change, this is more
> >> > likely to be all the gas dissolved in your tap water.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not an expert at this so correct me if I'm wrong.
> >> =========================
> >> I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
> >> tanks
> >> on a sunny windowsill.
> >> --
> >>
> >> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> >> Aquariums since 1952
> >> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> >> Troll Information:
> >> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> >> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > =========================
> > I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
> > tanks
> > on a sunny windowsill.
> >
> > Tanks???
> > You have them in tiny little bowls. Those are not tanks.
> ======================
> Check my new aquarium webpage. BTW do you keep your bettas with gravel and
> plants? My bettas have always had gravel and plants. It's cruel to keep
> them any other way as I'm sure you agree. How do you make sure everyone who
> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

> > Tanks???
> > You have them in tiny little bowls. Those are not tanks.
> ======================
> Check my new aquarium webpage. BTW do you keep your bettas with gravel and
> plants? My bettas have always had gravel and plants. It's cruel to keep
> them any other way as I'm sure you agree. How do you make sure everyone who
> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?

I checked your page as you suggest and I was so happy to see that most
of them are in larger containers. Good job. = ) And I mean that.

Yes, I agree on the plants, however gravel is not an absolute
necessity, nor is it cruel not to have gravel. It's simply asthetic to
the keeper's eye, brings out better coloring in any fish (one of the
reasons I use gravel in all my tanks except spawning tanks), and
creates more surfaces for the nitrifying bacteria to grow on.
It's not going to harm the fish not to have gravel in it's tank
though...it's just better in my personal opinion, but isn't being cruel
if they don't have it.
Yes...my single Betta tanks have plants....mostly baby Java fern shoots
and when they grow too large I simply plant them in one of the larger
tanks.
These Java ferns sprout so many baby plants (worse than a Spider
plant!) that I always have a ton to go around.
They're also great for the spawning and fry growing tanks (the baby
plants).
I must say again, I am so happy that you have given your male Bettas
the larger containers. You did right by them and didn't even say (or
did you a while back when I was off line due to my neck surgery).
Again, good job! = )

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Shorty" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > Pearling means bubbles of gas sitting on the surface of the plant.
> >> >
> >> > In this case, it refers to a situation when the water is saturated with
> >> > oxygen and the additional oxygen produced by the plants does not
> >> > dissolve in the water anymore. Then, you can see the bubbles of oxygen
> >> > sitting on the plant.
> >> >
> >> > But if you get this in the first two days of water change, this is more
> >> > likely to be all the gas dissolved in your tap water.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not an expert at this so correct me if I'm wrong.
> >> =========================
> >> I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
> >> tanks
> >> on a sunny windowsill.
> >> --
> >>
> >> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> >> Aquariums since 1952
> >> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> >> Troll Information:
> >> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> >> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > =========================
> > I believe you are correct. The plants pearl on sunny days in my betta
> > tanks
> > on a sunny windowsill.
> >
> > Tanks???
> > You have them in tiny little bowls. Those are not tanks.
> ======================
> Check my new aquarium webpage. BTW do you keep your bettas with gravel and
> plants? My bettas have always had gravel and plants. It's cruel to keep
> them any other way as I'm sure you agree. How do you make sure everyone who
> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
How do you make sure everyone who
> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?

Sorry, I forgot you had asked this question..I was so excited about
your boy's larger housing that I totally forgot you asked about this.
When I gave to people, they were either neighbors, friends, etc andf I
hardly ever charged them. However, word of mouth people that came to
buy I charged a very nomimal fee and it was usually less than what the
current price at the shops were.
I would ask them about what size tank they would be going into, as well
as explain the proper care if they didn't already know.
When I was breeding with regularity (yrs ago), it wasn't like it is
now. Bettas were given proper care and kept in tanks with common
community fish. People hardly ever kept them in small bowls. Of course
some did. However, it really wasn't the norm, nor were they even near
as popular. Not even close! NetMax probably remembers this, as well as
other old time hobbyists who have been in the hobby as long or longer
than I have. ( since the 1970's).
If somebody were to tell me that they wanted to keep it in a little
bowl I would simply deny them the fish. Plain and simple.
Folks who didn't already know the proper care were educated.
Heck..back then I the smallest tank I can remember there being were the
AllGlass 2 1/2 gallon ones. Not sure on if they were out in the 70's,
as I used 5g's back then for tiny tanks.
How about anyone else...I can't remember.
Back then people didn't have these tiny tanks to choose from or those
horrible contaptions they're selling for Bettas these days. Those clear
plastic things that have an area that's almost a V shape in the middle
for the Betta to be housed in. It holds like a couple/few ounces of
water. These things are horribly cruel. I even stopped going to one of
the local shops because he started selling these things. He got all
excited when I walked in one day and couldn't wait to show me these new
Betta "tanks".
I did one of these faces...= O
I said..I can't believe you are selling such cruel things and walked
out.
He knew better too. He's a local shop trying to compete with the chains
around him and I'm sorry, but he could have done better than that.
There's many 1g set ups with even a light that he could have sold for
less money than he was selling these torture chambers for.
I will say some of these things are getting a little better.
Some have gotten to be a gallon or more and have these mini power
filters and some even have mini fluorescent lights above them. Those
are ok in a constantly warm house or for somebody in a warm climate.
(when talking Bettas that is)
But a couple/few ounces of water? Horrible.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
..
>> Check my new aquarium webpage. BTW do you keep your bettas with gravel
>> and
>> plants? My bettas have always had gravel and plants. It's cruel to
>> keep
>> them any other way as I'm sure you agree. How do you make sure everyone
>> who
>> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
>> ======================
> I checked your page as you suggest and I was so happy to see that most
> of them are in larger containers. Good job. = ) And I mean that.

All were less than $1 on 1/2 price day down at the Goodwill Store. :-)

> Yes, I agree on the plants, however gravel is not an absolute
> necessity, nor is it cruel not to have gravel.

I feel it should be in all betta bowls and tanks as they seem to enjoy
picking around it for who-knows-what. But you were right about the old
bowls I was using. I measure the water they held and it was between 1 qt and
1/2 gallon. All these hold over a gallon except that weird shaped one. The
gravel is also (along with their plants) the bio-filter so they don't have
to suffer any ammonia when I change the water.

It's simply asthetic to
> the keeper's eye, brings out better coloring in any fish (one of the
> reasons I use gravel in all my tanks except spawning tanks), and
> creates more surfaces for the nitrifying bacteria to grow on.
> It's not going to harm the fish not to have gravel in it's tank
> though..

It keeps them busy. It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.

..it's just better in my personal opinion, but isn't being cruel
> if they don't have it.
> Yes...my single Betta tanks have plants....mostly baby Java fern shoots
> and when they grow too large I simply plant them in one of the larger
> tanks.
> These Java ferns sprout so many baby plants (worse than a Spider
> plant!) that I always have a ton to go around.
> They're also great for the spawning and fry growing tanks (the baby
> plants).
> I must say again, I am so happy that you have given your male Bettas
> the larger containers. You did right by them and didn't even say (or
> did you a while back when I was off line due to my neck surgery).
> Again, good job! = )

I posted the URL to the new page for a week or two. I actually measured the
water, then headed down to Goodwill ..... :-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How do you make sure everyone who
>> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
> ========
> Sorry, I forgot you had asked this question..I was so excited about
> your boy's larger housing that I totally forgot you asked about this.
> When I gave to people, they were either neighbors, friends, etc andf I
> hardly ever charged them. However, word of mouth people that came to
> buy I charged a very nomimal fee and it was usually less than what the
> current price at the shops were.
> I would ask them about what size tank they would be going into, as well
> as explain the proper care if they didn't already know.
> When I was breeding with regularity (yrs ago), it wasn't like it is
> now. Bettas were given proper care and kept in tanks with common
> community fish.

I was raising them in NYC (60s/70s). At that time they were kept in small
glass ivy bowls that held about 8oz of water. It was very cruel but the
stores said they had no choice. Space was at a premium there and still is.
Those who knew better had them in larger bowls with some gravel and at least
one small plant of some kind. The bowls were actually either used food
jars, cookie jars or regulation GF bowls, cheap then.

People hardly ever kept them in small bowls. Of course
> some did. However, it really wasn't the norm, nor were they even near
> as popular. Not even close! NetMax probably remembers this, as well as
> other old time hobbyists who have been in the hobby as long or longer
> than I have. ( since the 1970's).

There may be regional differences in their care. Here in TN they still keep
them in ivy bowls and sell people these small bowls to keep them in. Most
bettas don't survive very long. I know this because of what people I meet
say. I always hear something like this, "Oh I had a betta once. It lived
about 2 months [or some other time-period less than a year]."

> If somebody were to tell me that they wanted to keep it in a little
> bowl I would simply deny them the fish. Plain and simple.
> Folks who didn't already know the proper care were educated.
> Heck..back then I the smallest tank I can remember there being were the
> AllGlass 2 1/2 gallon ones. Not sure on if they were out in the 70's,
> as I used 5g's back then for tiny tanks.

I always remember there being 2g tanks. My mother bought us a 2g Metaframe
tank in 1952. It had a SS light and a plastic bubble-up filter, gray gravel
and a few real plants. She bought us guppies. I barely remember the GF
bowl and the 2 GF that died in days prior to that. I must have been very
young. Someone clued her in that fish can't live in bowls. I remember she
would change the Angelhair fiberglass filter material, carefully feed them.
That little tank hooked me for a lifetime. :-) I can't remember exactly
when they switched from SS framed tanks to all glass tanks.

> How about anyone else...I can't remember.
> Back then people didn't have these tiny tanks to choose from or those
> horrible contaptions they're selling for Bettas these days. Those clear
> plastic things that have an area that's almost a V shape in the middle
> for the Betta to be housed in. It holds like a couple/few ounces of
> water. These things are horribly cruel.

The stores here have all kinds of tiny over priced plastic bowls for Bettas.
:-( The place I got mine said they were around 1/2 gallon each. They
weren't, and I never gave it a thought because the fish did so well in them.

I even stopped going to one of
> the local shops because he started selling these things. He got all
> excited when I walked in one day and couldn't wait to show me these new
> Betta "tanks".
> I did one of these faces...= O
> I said..I can't believe you are selling such cruel things and walked
> out.
> He knew better too. He's a local shop trying to compete with the chains
> around him and I'm sorry, but he could have done better than that.
> There's many 1g set ups with even a light that he could have sold for
> less money than he was selling these torture chambers for.

I don't see any of those here. They used to sell the 1and 2g hex ones you
see on my windowsill, but those are hard to find now. They came with an
UGF, airpump, hood and even a light for $20! What happened to them? They
were excellent for bettas or other small fish. Now all I see are small
bowls and it then jumps to the 10g tank. The 2 and 5g tanks can only be
found in aquarium stores now and they aren't cheap. :-( The all glass 2s
(with glass dividers), the 5 and a few of my 10s were left to me by a
housemate who moved out of state back in 1988.

> I will say some of these things are getting a little better.
> Some have gotten to be a gallon or more and have these mini power
> filters and some even have mini fluorescent lights above them. Those
> are ok in a constantly warm house or for somebody in a warm climate.
> (when talking Bettas that is)
> But a couple/few ounces of water? Horrible.


Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[billb]

When I make the spray bar move the water
> without disturbing the surface I get bubbles and some living things
> floating at the surface. When I move the surface around, the stuff seem
> to disappear.


I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Frank]

Shorty wrote,
>When starting a planted tank with a few fish. How much aeration do I
>need?
>I am using a canister filter.

The larger the bio-load and the warmer the water, the less dissolved
oxygen. Canister filters are known to move a lot of water - most types
of aquatic plants that thrive in nature, grow in slow flowing or still
water - plus, algaes do better in a turbulent enviroment. If your going
to use a canister filter, I would point the spray bar in such a way to
move the surface of the water the least amount. If you haven't set the
filter up yet, see if you can take it back to the store and trade it
in. Unless it's a large tank with large fish, those high performance
filters are not necessarily the best filter for the tank! The flow rate
(gph) is much to fast - solid waste becomes traped within the filters
media, because of the flow rate, dissolves quickly and is pumped right
back into the tank as DOCs, an endless supply of plant nutrients
(excessive algae growth occurs). The effectiveness of bio-filtering is
greatly improved the longer the polluted water is held in the filter.

>Also... do you recommend surface movement to introduce more oxygen in
>the water for the bacteria colony to grow?

The bacteria colony will do fine with or without surface movement -
surface movement is more for the fish. Again, a large bio-load, heat,
and even some medications can/will rob the water from dissolved oxygen,
so your question is a good one, and the answer can differ from tank to
tank. Best way to tell if there is enough dissolved oxygen in a
tropical tank, is to have a few cool water fish in their. I keep eather
a few white cloud mountain minnows in the tank, or a hillstream loach
or two. Cool water fish will show respiratory distress long before the
warm water fish! ....................Frank

[Dick]

On 26 Jan 2006 05:56:37 -0800, "Shorty"
> wrote:

>Yes, another question ...
>When starting a planted tank with a few fish. How much aeration do I
>need? I want to minimize surface turbulence to keep the injected DIY
>CO2 in the tank.
>
>I am using a canister filter. When I make the spray bar move the water
>without disturbing the surface I get bubbles and some living things
>floating at the surface. When I move the surface around, the stuff seem
>to disappear.

I quit aereation about a year ago. I got tired of the mineral
deposits. All of my tanks have high densisty popultions: that is over
1 inch of fish/1 gallon of water.

I worried the first few days and watched closely for any movement to
the surface. Never happened. One of my good decisions. I love the
bubbles, but hate the mess.

dick

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Shorty wrote,
>
>>When starting a planted tank with a few fish. How much aeration do I
>>need?
>>I am using a canister filter.
>
>
> The larger the bio-load and the warmer the water, the less dissolved
> oxygen. Canister filters are known to move a lot of water - most types
> of aquatic plants that thrive in nature, grow in slow flowing or still
> water - plus, algaes do better in a turbulent enviroment.

That is SO odd. My experience is the exact opposite. It must be
specific the the kind of plants and algae. The only place long, fluffy
hair algae grows in my whiskey barrel pond is in part of one barrel
where the water is relatively still for the water lily. The water
hyacinth is much smaller in that barrel too. OTOH, the anacharis
sitting right in front of the spillway in strong current was growing
like crazy and blooming heavily last summer. I also get tons of hair
algae and blanketweed it in the calm, sponge filtered outdoor tank. My
mollies and flagfish love the stuff so I don't worry about it.

Indoors, I have clumps of java fern sitting in the filter outlet, and
they grow faster than the java fern on the other side of the tank. The
only place algae grows along the back of my 10 gallon tank is tangled in
the baby's tears where the current is light. Again, it's clumps of
fluffy hair algae - the kind that's not really attached to anything.
Maybe it gets carried to the filter in current?

I generally put crypts in moving water too, since all the pictures I've
seen of them in nature is bent over from the current in fast-flowing
streams. They seem to do fine that way.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > How do you make sure everyone who
> >> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
> > ========
> > Sorry, I forgot you had asked this question..I was so excited about
> > your boy's larger housing that I totally forgot you asked about this.
> > When I gave to people, they were either neighbors, friends, etc andf I
> > hardly ever charged them. However, word of mouth people that came to
> > buy I charged a very nomimal fee and it was usually less than what the
> > current price at the shops were.
> > I would ask them about what size tank they would be going into, as well
> > as explain the proper care if they didn't already know.
> > When I was breeding with regularity (yrs ago), it wasn't like it is
> > now. Bettas were given proper care and kept in tanks with common
> > community fish.
>
> I was raising them in NYC (60s/70s). At that time they were kept in small
> glass ivy bowls that held about 8oz of water. It was very cruel but the
> stores said they had no choice. Space was at a premium there and still is.
> Those who knew better had them in larger bowls with some gravel and at least
> one small plant of some kind. The bowls were actually either used food
> jars, cookie jars or regulation GF bowls, cheap then.
>
> People hardly ever kept them in small bowls. Of course
> > some did. However, it really wasn't the norm, nor were they even near
> > as popular. Not even close! NetMax probably remembers this, as well as
> > other old time hobbyists who have been in the hobby as long or longer
> > than I have. ( since the 1970's).
>
> There may be regional differences in their care. Here in TN they still keep
> them in ivy bowls and sell people these small bowls to keep them in. Most
> bettas don't survive very long. I know this because of what people I meet
> say. I always hear something like this, "Oh I had a betta once. It lived
> about 2 months [or some other time-period less than a year]."
>
> > If somebody were to tell me that they wanted to keep it in a little
> > bowl I would simply deny them the fish. Plain and simple.
> > Folks who didn't already know the proper care were educated.
> > Heck..back then I the smallest tank I can remember there being were the
> > AllGlass 2 1/2 gallon ones. Not sure on if they were out in the 70's,
> > as I used 5g's back then for tiny tanks.
>
> I always remember there being 2g tanks. My mother bought us a 2g Metaframe
> tank in 1952. It had a SS light and a plastic bubble-up filter, gray gravel
> and a few real plants. She bought us guppies. I barely remember the GF
> bowl and the 2 GF that died in days prior to that. I must have been very
> young. Someone clued her in that fish can't live in bowls. I remember she
> would change the Angelhair fiberglass filter material, carefully feed them.
> That little tank hooked me for a lifetime. :-) I can't remember exactly
> when they switched from SS framed tanks to all glass tanks.
>
> > How about anyone else...I can't remember.
> > Back then people didn't have these tiny tanks to choose from or those
> > horrible contaptions they're selling for Bettas these days. Those clear
> > plastic things that have an area that's almost a V shape in the middle
> > for the Betta to be housed in. It holds like a couple/few ounces of
> > water. These things are horribly cruel.
>
> The stores here have all kinds of tiny over priced plastic bowls for Bettas.
> :-( The place I got mine said they were around 1/2 gallon each. They
> weren't, and I never gave it a thought because the fish did so well in them.
>
> I even stopped going to one of
> > the local shops because he started selling these things. He got all
> > excited when I walked in one day and couldn't wait to show me these new
> > Betta "tanks".
> > I did one of these faces...= O
> > I said..I can't believe you are selling such cruel things and walked
> > out.
> > He knew better too. He's a local shop trying to compete with the chains
> > around him and I'm sorry, but he could have done better than that.
> > There's many 1g set ups with even a light that he could have sold for
> > less money than he was selling these torture chambers for.
>
> I don't see any of those here. They used to sell the 1and 2g hex ones you
> see on my windowsill, but those are hard to find now. They came with an
> UGF, airpump, hood and even a light for $20! What happened to them? They
> were excellent for bettas or other small fish. Now all I see are small
> bowls and it then jumps to the 10g tank. The 2 and 5g tanks can only be
> found in aquarium stores now and they aren't cheap. :-( The all glass 2s
> (with glass dividers), the 5 and a few of my 10s were left to me by a
> housemate who moved out of state back in 1988.
>
> > I will say some of these things are getting a little better.
> > Some have gotten to be a gallon or more and have these mini power
> > filters and some even have mini fluorescent lights above them. Those
> > are ok in a constantly warm house or for somebody in a warm climate.
> > (when talking Bettas that is)
> > But a couple/few ounces of water? Horrible.
>
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
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> I even stopped going to one of
> > the local shops because he started selling these things. He got all
> > excited when I walked in one day and couldn't wait to show me these new
> > Betta "tanks".
> > I did one of these faces...= O
> > I said..I can't believe you are selling such cruel things and walked
> > out.
> > He knew better too. He's a local shop trying to compete with the chains
> > around him and I'm sorry, but he could have done better than that.
> > There's many 1g set ups with even a light that he could have sold for
> > less money than he was selling these torture chambers for.
>
> I don't see any of those here.

Oh my..you've never seen these little plastic things with about 2-3
ounces of water to them..
Hold on I am off to look for a link for you.
You won't believe your eyes.
Azoo is the comany that makes them. PenPlax alsomakes similar ones.
They do get small than what is in this picture, but without anything to
compare size to you really aren't going to see how very small these
things can get.
I've seen them smaller than what's in this link.
Azoo.com isn't up and running right now, I've been trying for half an
hour and still it's down.
PetCo likes to carry these things, but doesn't offer them on their
website.
It depends on the individual stores who carries these.
Some are only going to hold a couple to a few ounces of water. They are
very thin (front to back) too. It's sick.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Azoo-Betta-Fish-Aquarium-Bowl-Tank-Crystal-Glass-Blue-V_W0QQitemZ7722556364QQcategoryZ20755QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > How do you make sure everyone who
>> >> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
>
you are selling such cruel things and walked
>> > out.
>> > He knew better too. He's a local shop trying to compete with the chains
>> > around him and I'm sorry, but he could have done better than that.
>> > There's many 1g set ups with even a light that he could have sold for
>> > less money than he was selling these torture chambers for.
>>
>> I don't see any of those here.
>
> Oh my..you've never seen these little plastic things with about 2-3
> ounces of water to them..

No. I see the small ones that hold 8oz. That the smallest so far.

> Hold on I am off to look for a link for you.
> You won't believe your eyes.

Geeze, smaller than 8 oz???? :-(

> Azoo is the comany that makes them. PenPlax alsomakes similar ones.
> They do get small than what is in this picture, but without anything to
> compare size to you really aren't going to see how very small these
> things can get.
> I've seen them smaller than what's in this link.

I just checked your link. No, I haven't seen them here. The smallest are
the tiny ivy bowls that hold about 8oz of water. Also some plastic tacky
trashy looking stuff that holds 8 to 10 oz. for bettas.

> Azoo.com isn't up and running right now, I've been trying for half an
> hour and still it's down.
> PetCo likes to carry these things, but doesn't offer them on their
> website.

Hummm....... ok I seldom go there because the PH is too low there and I
lose too many fish. Also, it's far.

> It depends on the individual stores who carries these.
> Some are only going to hold a couple to a few ounces of water. They are
> very thin (front to back) too. It's sick.

That's why I'm saying SOMEONE should do something, start something to change
the laws like they did with hookbill birds in some states.!!! I'm serious
about that. It kills my soul to see GF sold with those small 1 gallon
bowls. They have no chance at all...... NONE!
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Azoo-Betta-Fish-Aquarium-Bowl-Tank-Crystal-Glass-Blue-V_W0QQitemZ7722556364QQcategoryZ20755QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
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[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > How do you make sure everyone who
> >> >> buys your bettas provides them with live plants and gravel?
> >
> you are selling such cruel things and walked
> >> > out.
> >> > He knew better too. He's a local shop trying to compete with the chains
> >> > around him and I'm sorry, but he could have done better than that.
> >> > There's many 1g set ups with even a light that he could have sold for
> >> > less money than he was selling these torture chambers for.
> >>
> >> I don't see any of those here.
> >
> > Oh my..you've never seen these little plastic things with about 2-3
> > ounces of water to them..
>
> No. I see the small ones that hold 8oz. That the smallest so far.
>
> > Hold on I am off to look for a link for you.
> > You won't believe your eyes.
>
> Geeze, smaller than 8 oz???? :-(
>
> > Azoo is the comany that makes them. PenPlax alsomakes similar ones.
> > They do get small than what is in this picture, but without anything to
> > compare size to you really aren't going to see how very small these
> > things can get.
> > I've seen them smaller than what's in this link.
>
> I just checked your link. No, I haven't seen them here. The smallest are
> the tiny ivy bowls that hold about 8oz of water. Also some plastic tacky
> trashy looking stuff that holds 8 to 10 oz. for bettas.
>
> > Azoo.com isn't up and running right now, I've been trying for half an
> > hour and still it's down.
> > PetCo likes to carry these things, but doesn't offer them on their
> > website.
>
> Hummm....... ok I seldom go there because the PH is too low there and I
> lose too many fish. Also, it's far.
>
> > It depends on the individual stores who carries these.
> > Some are only going to hold a couple to a few ounces of water. They are
> > very thin (front to back) too. It's sick.
>
> That's why I'm saying SOMEONE should do something, start something to change
> the laws like they did with hookbill birds in some states.!!! I'm serious
> about that. It kills my soul to see GF sold with those small 1 gallon
> bowls. They have no chance at all...... NONE!
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Azoo-Betta-Fish-Aquarium-Bowl-Tank-Crystal-Glass-Blue-V_W0QQitemZ7722556364QQcategoryZ20755QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> Reading Headers:
> http://www.technomom.com/writing/headers.shtml
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Pardon my confusion, but you recently attacked me on the Goldfish
Question thread about this very thing.
Now having laws is a good thing and somebody should do something?
Can you see my confusion about your comment. Here somebody SHOULD do
something about making laws, and on another thread you used that
against somebody.

As for the 8 oz ones...that isn't what I'm talking about. They get much
smaller than that.
I not kidding either, they couldn't hold more than 3 oz of water.
They're also about as wide as a grown male's body, and probably 1 1/2"
-2" deep.
These things are so abusive it boggles my mind at how they could be
legal.
But without any control or laws ifyou will, in the hobby it's like
anything goes...even if it kills the fish. They show some of these
things with fish in them that don't have labyrinth organs, so you know
they'll be dead very soon of suffocation.
I've seen these other things that are just as bad too.
They look like a bowl, but are like 3/4 - 1" deep (front to back). A
Betta would have to curl up on it's own body just to turn around.
While looking for a good link about those other death traps I told you
about I saw one of these and they had hooked up so it swings back and
forth!!
Can you imagine the poor fish in this thing? I can't, but they're out
there and people are buying them.
It's sick.

I contacted the Meijer company (USA, and no not Fred Meyer, different
store), about their store brand 1g tank boxes showing like 8 Goldies in
the 1g tank and how bad that was becuase 1...they can't live in a 1g
tank like they are advertising and 2...people that don't know better
would use the picture as an example of what can be housed in that tank.
They have since changed the picture but sadly, it's still wrong. = (
I'm going there today and I'll have to see if they have any in stock
because I've forgotten what they used.
I've also asked them several times to stop having the buy one get one
free sale on male Bettas, as there are people do not know they cannot
be housed together.
They still have the sales. = ( It's all about the all mighty dollar.
That seems to always win.
You see Carol, I don't just sit here and not do anything about the poor
care, poor conditions, poor treatment, etc of the fish in this hobby,
(which you are under the impression I do).
I do a lot. I just don't always say so.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> That's why I'm saying SOMEONE should do something, start something to
>> change
>> the laws like they did with hookbill birds in some states.!!! I'm
>> serious
>> about that. It kills my soul to see GF sold with those small 1 gallon
>> bowls. They have no chance at all...... NONE!
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> Pardon my confusion, but you recently attacked me on the Goldfish
> Question thread about this very thing.

??? I am all for laws being passed to protect fish. One should force the
stores to hand out pamphlets with each fish giving information on the
nitrogen cycle and more..... so the fish have a better chance to survive.

> Now having laws is a good thing and somebody should do something?
> Can you see my confusion about your comment. Here somebody SHOULD do
> something about making laws, and on another thread you used that
> against somebody.

Huh? I have always believed laws should be passed to protect fish, small
animals such as hamsters etc. If the store can't get more for the fish then
they will go out of business. Without laws we have no way to force our
beliefs and humane views on them. Is it fair to them? I'm not sure
actually, since some are making it on a shoestring,... little profit. And
it would also force people to either spend more or bypass the fish hobby.
Many get hooked because of a fishbowl and GF... and move on up the ladder to
real tanks and more exotic fish. Those people may be lost to the hobby. So
what's fair then?

> As for the 8 oz ones...that isn't what I'm talking about. They get much
> smaller than that.
> I not kidding either, they couldn't hold more than 3 oz of water.
> They're also about as wide as a grown male's body, and probably 1 1/2"
> -2" deep.
> These things are so abusive it boggles my mind at how they could be
> legal.

I have not seen them here, or have seen them and didn't realize they were
for bettas.

> But without any control or laws ifyou will, in the hobby it's like
> anything goes...even if it kills the fish. They show some of these
> things with fish in them that don't have labyrinth organs, so you know
> they'll be dead very soon of suffocation.

Which stores have you seen them in? I haven't been in Petco in awhile. The
chains I frequent most are SuperPets, PetSupermarket and PetsMart. Pettown
went out of business here last fall. The next time I hit these stores I am
going to LOOK for these tiny betta bowls.

> I've seen these other things that are just as bad too.
> They look like a bowl, but are like 3/4 - 1" deep (front to back). A
> Betta would have to curl up on it's own body just to turn around.

What you're describing are really over the top....... :-( You would
think common sense would tell the person they're cruel.

> While looking for a good link about those other death traps I told you
> about I saw one of these and they had hooked up so it swings back and
> forth!!
> Can you imagine the poor fish in this thing? I can't, but they're out
> there and people are buying them.
> It's sick.

Have you seen the small betta globes that are desk LAMPS???? You actually
screw the betta bowl into the socket holder somehow. I couldn't believe my
eyes! And there the fish hangs being cooked by the light and being blinded
at the same time.

> I contacted the Meijer company (USA, and no not Fred Meyer, different
> store), about their store brand 1g tank boxes showing like 8 Goldies in
> the 1g tank and how bad that was becuase 1...they can't live in a 1g
> tank like they are advertising and 2...people that don't know better
> would use the picture as an example of what can be housed in that tank.
> They have since changed the picture but sadly, it's still wrong. = (

I know the feeling. It's like beating your head against a brick wall.

> I'm going there today and I'll have to see if they have any in stock
> because I've forgotten what they used.
> I've also asked them several times to stop having the buy one get one
> free sale on male Bettas, as there are people do not know they cannot
> be housed together.

Do you know that some clerks (in NYC) are selling people a PAIR of bettas
for those little bowls? Yes, a PAIR to put in one bowl. I just heard about
it last week. Think shredded fins, fungus, bacterial infections and certain
death if not for both, surely one.

> They still have the sales. = ( It's all about the all mighty dollar.
> That seems to always win.
> You see Carol, I don't just sit here and not do anything about the poor
> care, poor conditions, poor treatment, etc of the fish in this hobby,
> (which you are under the impression I do).
> I do a lot. I just don't always say so.

Well SHARE as it encourages others to at least try to do the same........
BTW the managers in the local Wal*Mart stores cringe when they see me
heading for their pet depts. But there have been vast improvements. ;-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
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[Frank]

Elaine T wrote,
>The only place long, fluffy
>hair algae grows in my whiskey barrel pond is in part of one barrel
>where the water is relatively still for the water lily.

Hair algae is primarily a problem when there is excess iron in the
water. Your water come from a well (?), or you might try reducing the
dosage of fertilizers containing iron.

>I have clumps of java fern sitting in the filter outlet, and
>they grow faster than the java fern on the other side of the tank.

In low nitrAte situations, along with algaes, some plants can get its
nitrogen from the air. Under a water return location, I can see where
it can get its nitrogen from the air.

>I generally put crypts in moving water too, since all the pictures I've
>seen of them in nature is bent over from the current in fast-flowing
>streams. They seem to do fine that way.

I didn't say _all_ plants do better in slow flowing or still water - I
said _most_ plants......
I didn't say _all_ algaes do better in a turbulent enviroment, but most
do. Both blue-green slime algae and hair algae does great where there
is little to nill water movement. ................. Frank

[Cliff L]

> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.

True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
larger river stones.

Cliff

[Koi-lo]

"Cliff L" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.
>
> True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
> for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
> larger river stones.
======================
That depends where you live. Here the river bottoms are covered with stones
and pebbles of various sizes, the soil washed downstream ages ago. On L.I.
the ponds and inlets were sand, pebbles and stones. The lake here has a
mud and rock bottom.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
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[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Cliff L" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.
>>
>>
>> True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
>> for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
>> larger river stones.
>
> ======================
> That depends where you live. Here the river bottoms are covered with
> stones and pebbles of various sizes, the soil washed downstream ages
> ago. On L.I. the ponds and inlets were sand, pebbles and stones. The
> lake here has a mud and rock bottom.

If memory serves me rightly, the bottom of the Thames is squidgy mud
with the odd bit of stone/gravel but predominately mud...used to get
stuck between your toes - lol. It was a long time ago when I was mad
enough to swim in there but I'm pretty sure that it won't have changed
much....

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> "Cliff L" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.
>>>
>>>
>>> True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
>>> for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
>>> larger river stones.
>>
>> ======================
>> That depends where you live. Here the river bottoms are covered with
>> stones and pebbles of various sizes, the soil washed downstream ages ago.
>> On L.I. the ponds and inlets were sand, pebbles and stones. The lake
>> here has a mud and rock bottom.
>
> If memory serves me rightly, the bottom of the Thames is squidgy mud with
> the odd bit of stone/gravel but predominately mud...used to get stuck
> between your toes - lol. It was a long time ago when I was mad enough to
> swim in there but I'm pretty sure that it won't have changed much....
======================
Your Thames then is much like our Hudson and East Rivers in NYC. Those
rivers have a sludge over the soil and whatever boulders, stones and pebbles
are there. You can well call it squidgy mud. And we have trash! Ugh,
trash of every description from broken bottles to used baby diapers in those
rivers. Very nasty stuff you don't even want to put your feet in.... :þ
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
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[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Cliff L" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>>
>>>>> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
>>>> for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
>>>> larger river stones.
>>>
>>>
>>> ======================
>>> That depends where you live. Here the river bottoms are covered with
>>> stones and pebbles of various sizes, the soil washed downstream ages
>>> ago. On L.I. the ponds and inlets were sand, pebbles and stones.
>>> The lake here has a mud and rock bottom.
>>
>>
>> If memory serves me rightly, the bottom of the Thames is squidgy mud
>> with the odd bit of stone/gravel but predominately mud...used to get
>> stuck between your toes - lol. It was a long time ago when I was mad
>> enough to swim in there but I'm pretty sure that it won't have changed
>> much....
>
> ======================
> Your Thames then is much like our Hudson and East Rivers in NYC. Those
> rivers have a sludge over the soil and whatever boulders, stones and
> pebbles are there. You can well call it squidgy mud. And we have
> trash! Ugh, trash of every description from broken bottles to used baby
> diapers in those rivers. Very nasty stuff you don't even want to put
> your feet in.... :þ

The Thames has been through some major clean ups but I rather fancy the
seventies were the hay day in terms of safety for swimming (not that it
was safe we just didn't know any better)...I wouldn't let my kids swim
there now but that might also be down to us understanding the dangers of
swimming in a river such as the Thames with all its currents without
considering toxicity which I don't really believe is a major issue these
days...There is no real junk issue in the Thames or the majority of our
major rivers...trash in the odd pond/lake/river/stream - yes it
happens...but the environmental people are so much on the case now that
it is the exception rather than the rule....

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Cliff L > wrote:
>> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.
>
>True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
>for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
>larger river stones.

People poeple... are we losing sight of the unnaturallness of those
glass walls?

How many rivrs have glass walls and welding tanks and shop lights
(has a quick look in the backyard) none here... anyone?


--
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> Cliff L > wrote:
>>> It's more natural than a plain glass bottom.
>>
>>True, but I wonder how common a gravel subtrate is
>>for aquarium fish in the wild, as opposed to mud or
>>larger river stones.
>
> People poeple... are we losing sight of the unnaturallness of those
> glass walls?
>
> How many rivrs have glass walls and welding tanks and shop lights
> (has a quick look in the backyard) none here... anyone?
==========================
I think the fish are more comfortable with something natural such as gravel,
sand or pebbles on the bottom of their tanks than bare glass. Others may
disagree of course. Whatever works for you and your particular fish. :-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Elaine T wrote,
>
>>The only place long, fluffy
>>hair algae grows in my whiskey barrel pond is in part of one barrel
>>where the water is relatively still for the water lily.
>
>
> Hair algae is primarily a problem when there is excess iron in the
> water. Your water come from a well (?), or you might try reducing the
> dosage of fertilizers containing iron.
>
>
>>I have clumps of java fern sitting in the filter outlet, and
>>they grow faster than the java fern on the other side of the tank.
>
>
> In low nitrAte situations, along with algaes, some plants can get its
> nitrogen from the air. Under a water return location, I can see where
> it can get its nitrogen from the air.
>
>
>>I generally put crypts in moving water too, since all the pictures I've
>>seen of them in nature is bent over from the current in fast-flowing
>>streams. They seem to do fine that way.
>
>
> I didn't say _all_ plants do better in slow flowing or still water - I
> said _most_ plants......
> I didn't say _all_ algaes do better in a turbulent enviroment, but most
> do. Both blue-green slime algae and hair algae does great where there
> is little to nill water movement. ................. Frank

Fair enough. ;-) BGA loves a quiet spot, like between the glass and
the gravel! The tank with the java fern is fairly low nitrate, so the
filter return makes sense. There would also be the most freshly
dissolved CO2 there, come to think of it. It's a Flourish Excel tank so
atmospheric CO2 is going to be an important carbon source.

I'm aware of problems with algae and iron. I'm going pretty low on the
iron ferts outdoors right now because nothing is growing very fast. My
tapwater tests zero for iron - I'll give the pondwater a test and see if
anything has accumulated anyway. Thanks for the idea!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Elaine T wrote,
>BGA loves a quiet spot, like between the glass and
>the gravel!

I battled with that stuff for 3 years in my outside pond. Last summer I
figured it out; High levels of DOC, very low nitrAte levels and low O2
levels due to poor water currents = (cyanobacteria) BGA. I rebuilt the
pond - it now has a 1' wide X 1'deep plant shelf around it before it
drops to its 5' center, installed a DIY 50' hose filter around the
outside wall of the plant shelf for water current and added nitrAte to
10ppm.

>I'm going pretty low on the
>iron ferts outdoors right now because nothing is growing very fast.

Might want to test the nitrAte level also. As my nitrAte level drops,
the plants stop growing and algaes tend to start growing. Untill I put
the DIY hose filter in the pond, I used to get BBA (black beard algae).
I figured it was due to high phosphates (fish waste and uneaten foods)
so I guess the DIY hose filter (perforated garden hose filled with hose
cleaning brushs with a pump on one end) is now giving enough breakdown
time needed for the bacteria to break down the DOCs - no more BBA and
the water doesn't turn yellow......... Frank

[sshaunwatson]

You need enough to make your fish very difficult to comb and / or puffy Surface, the highest in the middle of the night when the oxygen demand, The lowest yield.