Question about undergravel filter conversion

[AxlCox]

For some reason about 50 days ago I started to get an outbreak of
either algae or waste in my tank. It gets pretty bad....on the glass,
decoration and causes me to do my tank cleaning and water changes much
quicker than I did prior. Within a few months of this starting, I:

* Added ceramics to my filter for bacteria harvesting

* My algae eater died after 4 years of good service

* Instead of using the porous sponge-like media for my large waste
catcher in the filter, I began to use the finer wool-like material
instead.


I did get a new algae eater but he died within 3 weeks. The brown
contamination began short after his arrival. No other fish have expired
and they have all been in this tank for at least 18 months (some have
been for YEARS). (This is a freshwater tank, FYI)

So yesterday it was suggested to me to go back to my original
filtration media (the sponge-like block, plus my usual carbon and
ceramics) but ADD under gravel filtration.

As far as I know I've set it up correctly. I've got the plate under my
gravel, the 1" tube coming up with the power head pulling the water
from it. The power head is shooting the water back towards the other
side of the tank where my hanging power filter will catch the debris.

Right now all of my decorations have been soaking in a diluted bleach
solution which seems to have really cleaned them up. I know now I need
to rinse them and let them sit in a de-chlorinator solution for another
day.

My questions: Have I set up the UGF properly? Will this help the
problem I'm describing? I cannot myself determine if this "brown muck"
was algae or waste. Also, would you suggest a hanging cannister filter
rather than an over the back power filter?

One thing that was pointed out to me was that I got in the habit of
leaving the light on 24/7...which i guess helps algae growth? I'm sure
to leave it off during the day now.

Any suggestions or tips are greatly appreciated! I've run this tank
since 2000 and never had any problems and now this. I just am not sure
what caused this change although I'm guessing between the media change
and maybe my AE dying, it could be a combination...?

Thanks all.

Below are the products I'm using:
Filter:
http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 6763&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030560&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1138288092425

UGF:
http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444178 1435&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030118&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1138288124689

Power head:
http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=25343743 02023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030138&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441776828&bmUID=1138288224834&itemNo=0&Ntt=aqua+clear&In=All&previousText=aqua+clear&N=2

[Koi-lo]

"AxlCox" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> So yesterday it was suggested to me to go back to my original
> filtration media (the sponge-like block, plus my usual carbon and
> ceramics) but ADD under gravel filtration.

Everyone I know who keeps tanks have done away with these UGFs because it's
too hard to remove all the crud (mulm) that collects under them - keeping it
*IN* the tank. An UGF doesn't remove the nutrients algae and diatoms (red
black growths) need to thrive.

> My questions: Have I set up the UGF properly? Will this help the
> problem I'm describing?

No since these filters tend to keep the muck you could be vacuuming out of
the gravel hidden out-of-sight.

I cannot myself determine if this "brown muck"
> was algae or waste. Also, would you suggest a hanging cannister filter
> rather than an over the back power filter?
>
> One thing that was pointed out to me was that I got in the habit of
> leaving the light on 24/7...which i guess helps algae growth? I'm sure
> to leave it off during the day now.

This is unnatural. 12 hours a day is enough.

> Any suggestions or tips are greatly appreciated! I've run this tank
> since 2000 and never had any problems and now this. I just am not sure
> what caused this change although I'm guessing between the media change
> and maybe my AE dying, it could be a combination...?
>
> Thanks all.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

"AxlCox" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> For some reason about 50 days ago I started to get an outbreak of
> either algae or waste in my tank. It gets pretty bad....on the glass,
> decoration and causes me to do my tank cleaning and water changes much
> quicker than I did prior. Within a few months of this starting, I:
>
> * Added ceramics to my filter for bacteria harvesting
>
> * My algae eater died after 4 years of good service
>
> * Instead of using the porous sponge-like media for my large waste
> catcher in the filter, I began to use the finer wool-like material
> instead.
>
>
> I did get a new algae eater but he died within 3 weeks. The brown
> contamination began short after his arrival. No other fish have expired
> and they have all been in this tank for at least 18 months (some have
> been for YEARS). (This is a freshwater tank, FYI)
>
> So yesterday it was suggested to me to go back to my original
> filtration media (the sponge-like block, plus my usual carbon and
> ceramics) but ADD under gravel filtration.
>
> As far as I know I've set it up correctly. I've got the plate under my
> gravel, the 1" tube coming up with the power head pulling the water
> from it. The power head is shooting the water back towards the other
> side of the tank where my hanging power filter will catch the debris.
>
> Right now all of my decorations have been soaking in a diluted bleach
> solution which seems to have really cleaned them up. I know now I need
> to rinse them and let them sit in a de-chlorinator solution for another
> day.
>
> My questions: Have I set up the UGF properly? Will this help the
> problem I'm describing? I cannot myself determine if this "brown muck"
> was algae or waste. Also, would you suggest a hanging cannister filter
> rather than an over the back power filter?
>
> One thing that was pointed out to me was that I got in the habit of
> leaving the light on 24/7...which i guess helps algae growth? I'm sure
> to leave it off during the day now.
>
> Any suggestions or tips are greatly appreciated! I've run this tank
> since 2000 and never had any problems and now this. I just am not sure
> what caused this change although I'm guessing between the media change
> and maybe my AE dying, it could be a combination...?
>
> Thanks all.


I suggest you post your water parameters, particularly the pH today and
before your crisis if you know it (otherwise measure your tap water pH after
it has aired a day), your nitrates (NO3) today, and your kH (tap and tank)
if possible. You may be experiencing 'old tank syndrome' which essentially
is caused by an excess of organic matter (in your gravel) decaying,
acidifying and consuming your tank's buffer (kH) which causes the pH to
crash, or in hard water tank causes the nitrates to elevate considerably,
almost out of control. Some symptoms are new algaes developing, fish dying
and new fish not acclimating (due to the high NO3 or low pH shocking them).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[AxlCox]

Yeah actually I did a water test today. My PH seems a bit high....about
7.5

I have a LITTLE ammonia, less than .5ppm but I did a big water change
yesterday so I assume this may clear out.

I have a 0 nitrite level

I always have a hard time measuring kH and gH. I had to kind of
estimate. It looked like my kH level (tank) is in the 75-100ppm range.
My tank right now has only various tetras in it....this an ok level? My
own gH level was inconclusive. I use a test kit that's based on color
reaction and I just couldnt make a good determination. I dont know if
there are more accurate ones out there. This is the one I use:

http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 6772&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030152&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1138298228936

At this point I was planning to get some PH down and take some water in
for a more accurate test.

Now I'm afraid I wasted money by going with the UGF! :(

I'm really eyeing a cannister filter...even if its freestanding....it
just seems like they have WAY more filtration power...but with a 20
gal, I dont know if it's worth it. Any suggestions about this will be
helpful! Thanks!

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.
AxlCox wrote:
> Yeah actually I did a water test today. My PH seems a bit
> high....about
> 7.5
>
> I have a LITTLE ammonia, less than .5ppm but I did a big water change
> yesterday so I assume this may clear out.
>
> I have a 0 nitrite level
>
> I always have a hard time measuring kH and gH. I had to kind of
> estimate. It looked like my kH level (tank) is in the 75-100ppm range.
> My tank right now has only various tetras in it....this an ok level?
> My own gH level was inconclusive. I use a test kit that's based on
> color reaction and I just couldnt make a good determination. I dont
> know if there are more accurate ones out there. This is the one I use:
>
>
http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524
441776772&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030152&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534
374302023693&bmUID=1138298228936
>
> At this point I was planning to get some PH down and take some water
> in for a more accurate test.
>
> Now I'm afraid I wasted money by going with the UGF! :(
>
> I'm really eyeing a cannister filter...even if its freestanding

You can set a fluval msf filter on it's side if you want to - I do it with
all of mine and have years of experience doing that (operating them on their
side). Good luck and later!

.....it
> just seems like they have WAY more filtration power...but with a 20
> gal, I dont know if it's worth it. Any suggestions about this will be
> helpful! Thanks!

[NetMax]

"AxlCox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yeah actually I did a water test today. My PH seems a bit high....about
> 7.5
>
> I have a LITTLE ammonia, less than .5ppm but I did a big water change
> yesterday so I assume this may clear out.
>
> I have a 0 nitrite level
>
> I always have a hard time measuring kH and gH. I had to kind of
> estimate. It looked like my kH level (tank) is in the 75-100ppm range.
> My tank right now has only various tetras in it....this an ok level? My
> own gH level was inconclusive. I use a test kit that's based on color
> reaction and I just couldnt make a good determination. I dont know if
> there are more accurate ones out there. This is the one I use:
>
> http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 6772&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030152&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1138298228936
>
> At this point I was planning to get some PH down and take some water in
> for a more accurate test.
>
> Now I'm afraid I wasted money by going with the UGF! :(
>
> I'm really eyeing a cannister filter...even if its freestanding....it
> just seems like they have WAY more filtration power...but with a 20
> gal, I dont know if it's worth it. Any suggestions about this will be
> helpful! Thanks!


The kH level tells me the tank cannot excessively acidify, so pH crash
should not be a problem. It does sound like you went through a
mini-cycle (possibly from the filter maintenance). Your DOC levels might
have gotten too high (insufficient water changes for the fish-load).
Your nitrAte levels would be interesting to know (NO3).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[AxlCox]

I dont have a nitrate test kit, maybe ill pick one up today. With the
UGF running along with my current power filter, the water seems to be
pretty clear...of course my brown muck problem probably wouldnt show
this early.

I guess my current power filter is ok. Another reason I was thinking
cannister was because I noticed by the time I put the filter media,
carbon and ceramics on the hold of this PF, the output water level was
so high in the housing (due to displacement) that water was coming out
not only from out the output but also around the intake tube. The only
way I could help that and get the water level lower to prevent this was
to decrease the filter flow. I dont know if this would have caused the
muck problem, but it seems it wasnt cycling the water as it was meant
to. Maybe this filter wasnt originally made to hold 3 filtration
components....

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
AxlCox wrote:
> I dont have a nitrate test kit, maybe ill pick one up today. With the
> UGF running along with my current power filter, the water seems to be
> pretty clear...of course my brown muck problem probably wouldnt show
> this early.
>
> I guess my current power filter is ok. Another reason I was thinking
> cannister was because I noticed by the time I put the filter media,
> carbon and ceramics on the hold of this PF, the output water level was
> so high in the housing (due to displacement) that water was coming out
> not only from out the output but also around the intake tube. The only
> way I could help that and get the water level lower to prevent this
> was to decrease the filter flow. I dont know if this would have
> caused the muck problem, but it seems it wasnt cycling the water as
> it was meant to. Maybe this filter wasnt originally made to hold 3
> filtration components....

Power filters with some run off are relatively common I have noticed. Just
be reasonable - if the run-off is too much then you only need to do
something about it then. Good luck and later!