lighting idea?

[Larry Blanchard]

Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both inline
and square pin versions.

Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
anyone else seen or used these?
--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Rocco Moretti]

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket.

Do you have a link? (Have no experience with them myself - they sound
very interesting.)

[Roy]

Coral life makes them, and thewre is some brand sold in wal mart whose
name I do not recall. The coral life is a 50/50 bulb which is fine for
sal****er but not needed for fw or fw plants but it does add a nice
blue hue to some fw things, and makes any florescent stuff on
decorations stand out....
They do tend to run somewhat hotter than the typical incandescant
lights do, and a bit hotter than equal true pin type PCs do....so just
beaware heat may be an issue in some tanks / hoods


On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:39:17 -0800, Larry Blanchard
> wrote:
>><>Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>><>sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both inline
>><>and square pin versions.
>><>
>><>Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
>><>anyone else seen or used these?

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Koi-lo]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both inline
> and square pin versions.
>
> Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
> anyone else seen or used these?
==========================
These screw-in fluorescent bulbs work great in incandescent reflectors and
save a lot of money. There's also a lot less heat to deal with.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[sew crazy]

I use them in my sump ... got nice ones with reflectors ...
output 10w ech equal to 100 w
poped in 3 of these :)
plants love it ... not nice for display tanks cause of the light
http://www.smarthome.com/903240.html

the suspended setup makes for very attractive lighting .... so probably
depends on the type of fish you have ,,,

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Coral life makes them, and thewre is some brand sold in wal mart whose
> name I do not recall. The coral life is a 50/50 bulb which is fine for
> sal****er but not needed for fw or fw plants but it does add a nice
> blue hue to some fw things, and makes any florescent stuff on
> decorations stand out....
> They do tend to run somewhat hotter than the typical incandescant
> lights do, and a bit hotter than equal true pin type PCs do....so just
> beaware heat may be an issue in some tanks / hoods
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:39:17 -0800, Larry Blanchard
> > wrote:
>>><>Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>>><>sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both inline
>>><>and square pin versions.
>>><>
>>><>Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
>>><>anyone else seen or used these?
>
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Kurt]

Larry Blanchard > wrote in
:

> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both
> inline and square pin versions.
>
> Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
> anyone else seen or used these?

Hi Larry,
Got a link for those sockets? Their use sounds interesting.

--
Cheers,
Kurt

[sew crazy]

i usually get these ,,,,

http://www.eurolux.com/


"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
> Larry Blanchard > wrote in
> :
>
>> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both
>> inline and square pin versions.
>>
>> Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
>> anyone else seen or used these?
>
> Hi Larry,
> Got a link for those sockets? Their use sounds interesting.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Kurt
>

[sew crazy]

sorry link is not workin ... try this one ...
http://www.eurolux.co.za/product.asp

"sew crazy" > wrote in message
...
>i usually get these ,,,,
>
> http://www.eurolux.com/
>
>
> "Kurt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Larry Blanchard > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>>> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both
>>> inline and square pin versions.
>>>
>>> Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
>>> anyone else seen or used these?
>>
>> Hi Larry,
>> Got a link for those sockets? Their use sounds interesting.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Kurt
>>
>
>

[Larry Blanchard]

Roy wrote:

> Coral life makes them, and thewre is some brand sold in wal mart whose
> name I do not recall.

No, you're thinking about the screw-in compact fluorescents. The ones
that come with threads that fit an incandescent socket. That's not
what I'm talking about, although I've used those.

A regular compact fluorescent has either 4 pins in a straight line, or 4
pins in a rectangular arrangement. It won't screw in to anything.
What I saw was an adaptor that did screw into a regular socket and then
you could plug in the 4 pin compact bulb.

Did that clarify what I'm talking about?

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Larry Blanchard]

Rocco Moretti wrote:

> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket.
>
> Do you have a link? (Have no experience with them myself - they sound
> very interesting.)

OK, I looked it up again, here it is:

http://www.goodmart.com/products/compact_fluorescent_screw_in_base_ballast_adapters .htm

The only problem is they only sell them by the dozen. I haven' looked
around to see if they're available elsewhere.


--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Larry Blanchard]

Koi-lo wrote:

>
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote
>> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both
>> inline and square pin versions.
>>
> ==========================
> These screw-in fluorescent bulbs work great in incandescent reflectors
> and save a lot of money. There's also a lot less heat to deal with.

I must not be very clear - I'm talking about adaptors, not bulbs. See
my response to another poster.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Roy]

Got you now........why not just buy a new ballast and wiring / socket
assembly...thats made for square pin or straight pin PC's.
Hellolights.com has some on special. Ballast will power up a pin type
PC and handle PC bulbs of 24 thru 65 watts in power for $24.00 That
assembly comes with standard square pin configuration but a straight
pin configuratin plug is only about $3.00 more for replacememnt
socket.

They also have 7/9 watt and 13 watt retro asemblies compelete with
your choice of bulbs, and reflector included for about $15.




On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:13:46 -0800, Larry Blanchard
> wrote:
>><>Roy wrote:
>><>
>><>> Coral life makes them, and thewre is some brand sold in wal mart whose
>><>> name I do not recall.
>><>
>><>No, you're thinking about the screw-in compact fluorescents. The ones
>><>that come with threads that fit an incandescent socket. That's not
>><>what I'm talking about, although I've used those.
>><>
>><>A regular compact fluorescent has either 4 pins in a straight line, or 4
>><>pins in a rectangular arrangement. It won't screw in to anything.
>><>What I saw was an adaptor that did screw into a regular socket and then
>><>you could plug in the 4 pin compact bulb.
>><>
>><>Did that clarify what I'm talking about?

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Koi-lo]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> A regular compact fluorescent has either 4 pins in a straight line, or 4
> pins in a rectangular arrangement. It won't screw in to anything.
> What I saw was an adaptor that did screw into a regular socket and then
> you could plug in the 4 pin compact bulb.
>
> Did that clarify what I'm talking about?
===================================
I would think any electrical supply house would carry these if you can't get
them at ACE, Home Depot or Lowe's electrical depts.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Kurt]

"sew crazy" > wrote in news:drbk41$ajd$1@ctb-
nnrp2.saix.net:

> orry link is not workin ... try this one ...
> http://www.eurolux.co.za/product.asp
>
>

Thanks!

--
Cheers,
Kurt

[Larry Blanchard]

Roy wrote:

> Got you now........why not just buy a new ballast and wiring / socket
> assembly...thats made for square pin or straight pin PC's.
> Hellolights.com has some on special. Ballast will power up a pin type
> PC and handle PC bulbs of 24 thru 65 watts in power for $24.00 That
> assembly comes with standard square pin configuration but a straight
> pin configuratin plug is only about $3.00 more for replacememnt
> socket.

Well, you're talking $24 "on special" as opposed to $6.23 for the
adaptor. The adaptor is only good for 23 watts, so your route is the
way to go if you need more than that.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Mr. Gardener]

The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray
painted the outside black, added two end caps, screwed in a two bulb
holder with a chain pull, screwed in the two bulbs and made a
respectable looking and highly functional appliance for less than 10
bucks. Not counting the price of the bulbs, which run from $5 - $10
each - the full spectrum and daylight versions are available in
gardening catalogs. Like this one
http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/index.cfm?page=_productdetails&productid=5541&cid1=-99&cid2=-99&cid3=-99

Mr. Gardener


On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:03:16 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
>> Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>> sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both inline
>> and square pin versions.
>>
>> Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
>> anyone else seen or used these?
>==========================
>These screw-in fluorescent bulbs work great in incandescent reflectors and
>save a lot of money. There's also a lot less heat to deal with.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Larry Blanchard > wrote:
>Perusing the web the other day, I came across compact fluorescent
>sockets that could be screwed into an incandescent socket. Both inline
>and square pin versions.
>
>Seems like this would be another path to some cheap lighting. Has
>anyone else seen or used these?

Yup, for years. They suck. Having said that I still use them in
some places.

They suck because they emit lihgt in a radial pattern. Like a ilght
buld which ic of course why they're made that way. Now, compare them
to a fluorescent tube, and think where that puts the light compared
to a screw in.

More note here: http://aquaria.net/articles/lighting/screwin/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>> Coral life makes them, and thewre is some brand sold in wal mart whose
>> name I do not recall.
>
>No, you're thinking about the screw-in compact fluorescents. The ones
>that come with threads that fit an incandescent socket. That's not
>what I'm talking about, although I've used those.
>
>A regular compact fluorescent has either 4 pins in a straight line, or 4

"Biax" - German.

>pins in a rectangular arrangement.

Japanese.

It won't screw in to anything.
>What I saw was an adaptor that did screw into a regular socket and then
>you could plug in the 4 pin compact bulb.

What bulb does it light up? Ballasts are very specific. If it takes a 7-13
was tube (PL90?) then I've got those. They'ye ok for small tanks. 5 gal or so.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>I would think any electrical supply house would carry these if you can't get
>them at ACE, Home Depot or Lowe's electrical depts.

Don't guess.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
>full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
>of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
>was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray

Yeah I tried that too. The rain gutter turns brown and brittle over
time from the heat of the lamp. When I need to do this I use a standard
black aquaruim hood made to take incandescents and scew in as many 23W
daylight bulbs as I can (you can usually add a couple more byt adding
another incandescent fitting.

Keep in mind the refelctor in a fluorescent setup is going to give you
almost half your light as it reflects the light that's otherwise waster
because it's pointing the wrong direction (down, not up). So, a good bet
would be to to go a hydroponics shop and get the heat and moisture resistant
mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.

Like this:
http://images.aquaria.net/hw/lights/screwins/

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
>>full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
>>of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
>>was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray
>
> Yeah I tried that too. The rain gutter turns brown and brittle over
> time from the heat of the lamp. When I need to do this I use a standard
> black aquaruim hood made to take incandescents and scew in as many 23W
> daylight bulbs as I can (you can usually add a couple more byt adding
> another incandescent fitting.
>
> Keep in mind the refelctor in a fluorescent setup is going to give you
> almost half your light as it reflects the light that's otherwise waster
> because it's pointing the wrong direction (down, not up). So, a good
> bet
> would be to to go a hydroponics shop and get the heat and moisture
> resistant
> mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.
>
> Like this:
> http://images.aquaria.net/hw/lights/screwins/
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton

Thanks for the link. I'm resurrecting an old 120g and I'll probably
build a new canopy for it. I can have something made out of stainless
steel, so shape is not an issue. The tank top is 60" x 18". I usually
order glass plates to cover the top and then install the lighting in a
sliding or fixed canopy, in this case, four 4' fluorescent lamps would be
my typical approach. On my last canopy, I used the following:
2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
...which provided a wide bright spectrum.

With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it is
worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick with
my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple inexpensive
lamps?

I looked into halogen spot lighting, but their efficiency is not much
better than incandescent, though I may still use it for accents (I want
that shadow ripple across the bottom of the tank for the evening
transition), and for helping certain plants.

I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting, especially
is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).

Thanks for any feedback.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Roy]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:19:04 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>><>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
snip
>><>I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>><>solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting, especially
>><>is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
>><>slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>><>
>><>Thanks for any feedback.

They already are available if you homebrew it. Look for Luxeons not
LED's. I currenlty have an array of 24, 3 watters that are doing a
great job on a reef tank. They do generate some heat so a fan and heat
sink is best used, but thier color spectrum and intensity is far above
any of the typical LEDS. You can mix various colors to get the effects
your looking for. I have a mix of 460-470 nm luxeons mixed in o9n a
separate circuit that also doubles as my moon lights at
night......next project is a mix of reds and oranges trying to
duplicate sunrise/sunset . Even the SPS and clams I have in this tank
are doing fine, all illuminated with Luxeons, no PC or MH of any type.

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Koi-lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I would think any electrical supply house would carry these if you can't
> >get
>>them at ACE, Home Depot or Lowe's electrical depts.
>
> Don't guess.
====================
People don't think of these electrical supply places and not all towns have
them. A quick look in the yellow pages and a few phone calls can find
almost anything. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
Reading Headers:
http://www.technomom.com/writing/headers.shtml
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[CanadianCray]

The Luxeon LEDs are awesome. They are VERY expensive though.

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:19:04 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>>><>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> snip
>>><>I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>>><>solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting,
>>>especially
>>><>is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
>>><>slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>>><>
>>><>Thanks for any feedback.
>
> They already are available if you homebrew it. Look for Luxeons not
> LED's. I currenlty have an array of 24, 3 watters that are doing a
> great job on a reef tank. They do generate some heat so a fan and heat
> sink is best used, but thier color spectrum and intensity is far above
> any of the typical LEDS. You can mix various colors to get the effects
> your looking for. I have a mix of 460-470 nm luxeons mixed in o9n a
> separate circuit that also doubles as my moon lights at
> night......next project is a mix of reds and oranges trying to
> duplicate sunrise/sunset . Even the SPS and clams I have in this tank
> are doing fine, all illuminated with Luxeons, no PC or MH of any type.
>
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Roy]

yep, thats for sure, but they can be had fairly cheap if yu look. I
give less than $4 each for the ones I have, but have seen em online at
so called bargain basement prices of $11 each... Best route to buy
luxeons is get a few folks together that have an interest in them and
make a larger order, or find someone that orders lots of stuff from
that supplier and add your order to it....


On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:03:54 -0500, "CanadianCray"
> wrote:
>><>The Luxeon LEDs are awesome. They are VERY expensive though.
>><>
>><>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>><>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:19:04 -0500, "NetMax"
>><>> > wrote:
>><>>>><>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
>><>> snip
>><>>>><>I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>><>>>><>solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting,
>><>>>>especially
>><>>>><>is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
>><>>>><>slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>Thanks for any feedback.
>><>>
>><>> They already are available if you homebrew it. Look for Luxeons not
>><>> LED's. I currenlty have an array of 24, 3 watters that are doing a
>><>> great job on a reef tank. They do generate some heat so a fan and heat
>><>> sink is best used, but thier color spectrum and intensity is far above
>><>> any of the typical LEDS. You can mix various colors to get the effects
>><>> your looking for. I have a mix of 460-470 nm luxeons mixed in o9n a
>><>> separate circuit that also doubles as my moon lights at
>><>> night......next project is a mix of reds and oranges trying to
>><>> duplicate sunrise/sunset . Even the SPS and clams I have in this tank
>><>> are doing fine, all illuminated with Luxeons, no PC or MH of any type.
>><>>
>><>> --
>><>> \\\|///
>><>> ( @ @ )
>><>> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>><>>
>><>>
>><>> oooO
>><>> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
>><>> \ ( ( )
>><>> \_) ) /
>><>> (_/
>><>> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....
>><>

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:53:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article >,
>Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
>>full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
>>of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
>>was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray
>
>Yeah I tried that too. The rain gutter turns brown and brittle over
>time from the heat of the lamp. When I need to do this I use a standard
>black aquaruim hood made to take incandescents and scew in as many 23W
>daylight bulbs as I can (you can usually add a couple more byt adding
>another incandescent fitting.
>
>Keep in mind the refelctor in a fluorescent setup is going to give you
>almost half your light as it reflects the light that's otherwise waster
>because it's pointing the wrong direction (down, not up). So, a good bet
>would be to to go a hydroponics shop and get the heat and moisture resistant
>mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.
>
>Like this:
> http://images.aquaria.net/hw/lights/screwins/

I haven't had the problem with the gutter turning brown or brittle.
And they've been in service for years. The exterior was spray painted
with ordinary barbecue black paint, the insides remained a kind of off
white. I would have used regular incadescent strip light housings, but
the whole point of the project was avoiding the ridiculous high price
of strips and hoods. The biggest I've made was for a 20 Long tank, I
used two 13 watt PC daylight bulbs and the plants flourished. I just
pulled an old 15 from the attic this morning, destined for the living
room. I haven't been able to locate a hood or strip for it, so I may
be revisiting the DIY project soon. Incorporating any design
suggestions I pick up here.

Mr Gardener

[Larry Blanchard]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> They suck because they emit lihgt in a radial pattern. Like a ilght
> buld which ic of course why they're made that way. Now, compare them
> to a fluorescent tube, and think where that puts the light compared
> to a screw in.

I think you're a little out of date. Sure, there are lots of twisted
screw-in fluorescents out there. They weren't what I was talking
about, but yes I've used screw-ins as well.

But I used screw-in fluorescents with U-tubes, just like the regular
CFs. AllGlass even makes one (10W) and I've seen its duplicate at
Walmart. Walmart also has some 15W,6500K ones with 4 U-tubes and I've
seen some at Home Depot that are up in the 50-100 watt range, but I
don't know about the color temperature.

OK, the ones with multiple U-tubes may not be quite as efficient as the
long single U-tubes, but I can easily fit 4 15 watt ones into a 30"
hood that held a single 18 (or is it 20?) watt tube. That's a big
improvement.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Larry Blanchard]

NetMax wrote:

> With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it
> is worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick
> with my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple
> inexpensive lamps?

I'm sure Richard will have an opinion, but I can only say I've got 2 of
the AllGlass/Walmart 10W, 6500K lamps in a 10 gallon hood and one in a
5.5gallon hood. The light looks good and the plants grow like crazy.

I've got 4 15W,6500K that I'm putting into a 29 gallon hood, but it
isn't operational yet.

And if I can afford that 40 breeder I'm looking at I'll use 5 or 6 of
the 15W ones mounted crossways. And maybe a blue Xmas tree bulb or two
for night lighting - or maybe LEDs.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
>>Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>
>>>The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
>>>full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
>>>of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
>>>was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray
>>
>>Yeah I tried that too. The rain gutter turns brown and brittle over
>>time from the heat of the lamp. When I need to do this I use a standard
>>black aquaruim hood made to take incandescents and scew in as many 23W
>>daylight bulbs as I can (you can usually add a couple more byt adding
>>another incandescent fitting.
>>
>>Keep in mind the refelctor in a fluorescent setup is going to give you
>>almost half your light as it reflects the light that's otherwise waster
>>because it's pointing the wrong direction (down, not up). So, a good
>>bet
>>would be to to go a hydroponics shop and get the heat and moisture
>>resistant
>>mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.
>>
>>Like this:
>>http://images.aquaria.net/hw/lights/screwins/
>>
>>--
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>>Richard Sexton
>
>
> Thanks for the link. I'm resurrecting an old 120g and I'll probably
> build a new canopy for it. I can have something made out of stainless
> steel, so shape is not an issue. The tank top is 60" x 18". I usually
> order glass plates to cover the top and then install the lighting in a
> sliding or fixed canopy, in this case, four 4' fluorescent lamps would be
> my typical approach. On my last canopy, I used the following:
> 2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
> 1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
> 1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
> ..which provided a wide bright spectrum.
>
> With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it is
> worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick with
> my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple inexpensive
> lamps?
>
> I looked into halogen spot lighting, but their efficiency is not much
> better than incandescent, though I may still use it for accents (I want
> that shadow ripple across the bottom of the tank for the evening
> transition), and for helping certain plants.
>
> I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
> solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting, especially
> is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
> slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>
> Thanks for any feedback.

Spiral compact screw-in bulbs get shot down on the AGA mailing list
every time they're mentioned. Folks have measured lumens from them and
they put out far less light than the same wattage T5. Somehow a lot of
light is wasted by the spiral shape. I don't know how they compare to
hardware store T12s, but you'll certainly get more even lighting from
long tubes.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:40:42 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>NetMax wrote:
>> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>In article >,
>>>Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>>
>>>>The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
>>>>full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
>>>>of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
>>>>was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray
>>>
>>>Yeah I tried that too. The rain gutter turns brown and brittle over
>>>time from the heat of the lamp. When I need to do this I use a standard
>>>black aquaruim hood made to take incandescents and scew in as many 23W
>>>daylight bulbs as I can (you can usually add a couple more byt adding
>>>another incandescent fitting.
>>>
>>>Keep in mind the refelctor in a fluorescent setup is going to give you
>>>almost half your light as it reflects the light that's otherwise waster
>>>because it's pointing the wrong direction (down, not up). So, a good
>>>bet
>>>would be to to go a hydroponics shop and get the heat and moisture
>>>resistant
>>>mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.
>>>
>>>Like this:
>>>http://images.aquaria.net/hw/lights/screwins/
>>>
>>>--
>>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>>>Richard Sexton
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the link. I'm resurrecting an old 120g and I'll probably
>> build a new canopy for it. I can have something made out of stainless
>> steel, so shape is not an issue. The tank top is 60" x 18". I usually
>> order glass plates to cover the top and then install the lighting in a
>> sliding or fixed canopy, in this case, four 4' fluorescent lamps would be
>> my typical approach. On my last canopy, I used the following:
>> 2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
>> 1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
>> 1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
>> ..which provided a wide bright spectrum.
>>
>> With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it is
>> worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick with
>> my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple inexpensive
>> lamps?
>>
>> I looked into halogen spot lighting, but their efficiency is not much
>> better than incandescent, though I may still use it for accents (I want
>> that shadow ripple across the bottom of the tank for the evening
>> transition), and for helping certain plants.
>>
>> I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>> solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting, especially
>> is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
>> slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>>
>> Thanks for any feedback.
>
>Spiral compact screw-in bulbs get shot down on the AGA mailing list
>every time they're mentioned. Folks have measured lumens from them and
>they put out far less light than the same wattage T5. Somehow a lot of
>light is wasted by the spiral shape. I don't know how they compare to
>hardware store T12s, but you'll certainly get more even lighting from
>long tubes.

That doesn't surprise me. I use long tubes and 65W PCs on my display
tanks. But cost is a factor, and if I'm not doing anything special
with a tank, I'll take the cheap way out. I see these as a step up
from incadescents. And everyday run of the mill plants do just fine in
them. And I must continue to stress that one must take the time to
ensure their spiral screw-ins are not the general use bulbs found in
hardware stores, but 6500 or full spectrum found in gardening and fish
catalogs. Come to think of it, they're not all spirals - I've got a
couple that measure about 6 inches long, mounted to their screw-in
balast with a 2 pin connection. Westinghouse. Since they are u shaped
bulbs, like bigger PCs, that's 12 inches of tube per bulb. Lot of
light. 2 13 watters equivalent to around 100 watts. And they've got to
be better than the 15 and 20 watt straight flourescents supplied with
commercial hoods and strip lights for 15 or 20 gallon tanks..

Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:40:42 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:


>> Thanks for the link. I'm resurrecting an old 120g and I'll probably
>> build a new canopy for it. I can have something made out of stainless
>> steel, so shape is not an issue. The tank top is 60" x 18". I usually
>> order glass plates to cover the top and then install the lighting in a
>> sliding or fixed canopy, in this case, four 4' fluorescent lamps would be
>> my typical approach. On my last canopy, I used the following:
>> 2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
>> 1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
>> 1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
>> ..which provided a wide bright spectrum.
>>
>> With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it is
>> worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick with
>> my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple inexpensive
>> lamps?

I"m not sure who you're asking here, but it looks like you've got a
pretty efficient plan right there - cost effective for sure - I
wouldn't experiment on a project that sized - save the testing for a
smaller tank or an existing incadescent strip. They're worth
investigation, but not serious investing until you've given them a try
on a small scale.

Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:38:40 -0500, Mr. Gardener
> wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:40:42 GMT, Elaine T >
>wrote:
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>In article >,
>>>>Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The screw-in compact flourescent light bulbs are also available in
>>>>>full spectrum as well as daylight around 6400 dK. I've made a couple
>>>>>of strip lights for my kids' aquariums using them and the plant growth
>>>>>was wonderful. I used a length of white plastic rain gutter, spray
>>>>
>>>>Yeah I tried that too. The rain gutter turns brown and brittle over
>>>>time from the heat of the lamp. When I need to do this I use a standard
>>>>black aquaruim hood made to take incandescents and scew in as many 23W
>>>>daylight bulbs as I can (you can usually add a couple more byt adding
>>>>another incandescent fitting.
>>>>
>>>>Keep in mind the refelctor in a fluorescent setup is going to give you
>>>>almost half your light as it reflects the light that's otherwise waster
>>>>because it's pointing the wrong direction (down, not up). So, a good
>>>>bet
>>>>would be to to go a hydroponics shop and get the heat and moisture
>>>>resistant
>>>>mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.

Yup. An effective reflector is always a challenge for me in my home
made as well as store bought light holders. Mylar's a good idea. Might
try that. That's like that space blanket material, right?

Mr Gardener

[Larry Blanchard]

Mr. Gardener wrote:

> Yup. An effective reflector is always a challenge for me in my home
> made as well as store bought light holders. Mylar's a good idea. Might
> try that. That's like that space blanket material, right?

Or you could use aluminum flashing.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[CanadianCray]

If you want Mylar just use old chip bags. They are made from Mylar & the
insides are reflective.

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>
>> Yup. An effective reflector is always a challenge for me in my home
>> made as well as store bought light holders. Mylar's a good idea. Might
>> try that. That's like that space blanket material, right?
>
> Or you could use aluminum flashing.
>
> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

[Richard Sexton]

>> mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.
>>
>Thanks for the link. I'm resurrecting an old 120g and I'll probably
>build a new canopy for it. I can have something made out of stainless
>steel, so shape is not an issue. The tank top is 60" x 18". I usually
>order glass plates to cover the top and then install the lighting in a
>sliding or fixed canopy, in this case, four 4' fluorescent lamps would be
>my typical approach. On my last canopy, I used the following:
>2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
>1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
>1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
>..which provided a wide bright spectrum.
>
>With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it is
>worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick with
>my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple inexpensive
>lamps?

If it's all you have, screwins are ok. Just. But you're not gonna
light up a 120 with them unless you want the moral equivalent of
LED moonlighting.

We've oulived the T12 era and I'd only consuider compact flourescent,
T5 or T8. T8's you can get a in a pinch at green home recycling centers,
only buy ones with reaaly good angled polished aluminum reflectors, pass
on any that have white reflectors. T5's I'd be surprised if you could
find in places like this, but I did find a bunch of CF twin 40W fixtures
last year (woo hoo!) so it could happen.

>I looked into halogen spot lighting, but their efficiency is not much
>better than incandescent, though I may still use it for accents (I want
>that shadow ripple across the bottom of the tank for the evening
>transition), and for helping certain plants.

Yeah, I do that too.

>I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting, especially
>is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
>slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).

Crappy tire sells a cheap 35 or 70W HPS(1) fixture and bulb. And an even
cheaper mercury one. I'm just sayin..

Chose something that uses cheap (ie theres lots of them made) tubes. Color
is personal taste - warm whiteif you prefer red, daylight if you prefer
blue. I like the look of C50's and grolux but I'm not convinced they have
any effect on plant growth whatsoever.

(1) 12000 lumens from 70W or something like that. A 40W tube is about 3000 lumens.
T8 or T12 or CF.
--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
CanadianCray > wrote:
>If you want Mylar just use old chip bags. They are made from Mylar & the
>insides are reflective.

Have you tried this? The heat and moisture resistant mylar only lasts
a year in my fixtures. God knows what would happen to a chip bag :-)

That's "crisps" to the rest of you. Everyones knows real chips come in
newspaper.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Roy]

Missed a bunch of the threads on this topic, but I assume your looking
for a reflector.....how about the acrylic mirrow stuff. I use it under
the hoods I make for my sal****er tanks and it lasts just fine. I
line the hoods with this material which is pretty darn cheap to
buy.......just get the el cheapo mirrows that wal mart sells for under
$10.00 that are normally 12" x 48" that hang on a door or wall. Just
make sure its acrylic and not golass which is pretty easy to do just
by the weight of it alone you can tell. I have used a heap of this
stuff over the years in a marine enviro.
Another good source is a mylar film called monokote which is available
as a heat shrink or as a pressure sensitive adhesive backed film, and
is available in most hobby shops that sell RC airplane stuff. I have
used it as well and it holds up to quite high wattage and heat of
power compact bulbs just fine. YOu can get it in assorted colors or
very shiney chrome metallic.....in sizes of about 36 inches x 6 inches
or so...
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:35:38 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:
>><>In article >,
>><>CanadianCray > wrote:
>><>>If you want Mylar just use old chip bags. They are made from Mylar & the
>><>>insides are reflective.
>><>
>><>Have you tried this? The heat and moisture resistant mylar only lasts
>><>a year in my fixtures. God knows what would happen to a chip bag :-)
>><>
>><>That's "crisps" to the rest of you. Everyones knows real chips come in
>><>newspaper.

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[CanadianCray]

Only in the UK

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> CanadianCray > wrote:
>>If you want Mylar just use old chip bags. They are made from Mylar & the
>>insides are reflective.
>
> Have you tried this? The heat and moisture resistant mylar only lasts
> a year in my fixtures. God knows what would happen to a chip bag :-)
>
> That's "crisps" to the rest of you. Everyones knows real chips come in
> newspaper.
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Larry Blanchard > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> They suck because they emit lihgt in a radial pattern. Like a ilght
>> buld which ic of course why they're made that way. Now, compare them
>> to a fluorescent tube, and think where that puts the light compared
>> to a screw in.
>
>I think you're a little out of date. Sure, there are lots of twisted
>screw-in fluorescents out there. They weren't what I was talking
>about, but yes I've used screw-ins as well.
>
>But I used screw-in fluorescents with U-tubes, just like the regular
>CFs. AllGlass even makes one (10W) and I've seen its duplicate at
>Walmart. Walmart also has some 15W,6500K ones with 4 U-tubes and I've
>seen some at Home Depot that are up in the 50-100 watt range, but I
>don't know about the color temperature.

I understand the difference. I got a bunch of the straight tube screw
ins 15 years ago. They were ok but I eventually replaced them with
conventional tubes. Can't say the last time I saw one now, they're
all sporal screw ins.

>OK, the ones with multiple U-tubes may not be quite as efficient as the
>long single U-tubes, but I can easily fit 4 15 watt ones into a 30"
>hood that held a single 18 (or is it 20?) watt tube. That's a big
>improvement.

Hey, it'll work.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:19:04 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>>><>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> snip
>>><>I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>>><>solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting,
>>>especially
>>><>is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue
>>>(a
>>><>slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>>><>
>>><>Thanks for any feedback.
>
> They already are available if you homebrew it. Look for Luxeons not
> LED's. I currenlty have an array of 24, 3 watters that are doing a
> great job on a reef tank. They do generate some heat so a fan and heat
> sink is best used, but thier color spectrum and intensity is far above
> any of the typical LEDS. You can mix various colors to get the effects
> your looking for. I have a mix of 460-470 nm luxeons mixed in o9n a
> separate circuit that also doubles as my moon lights at
> night......next project is a mix of reds and oranges trying to
> duplicate sunrise/sunset . Even the SPS and clams I have in this tank
> are doing fine, all illuminated with Luxeons, no PC or MH of any type.
>
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

I'm off to research. hmmmm 45 to 190 lumens per watt *impressive*.
These look very interesting. Stainless steel hood would make a good
heatsink... a trio of low voltage constant current sources in the tank
stand, and some passive heat baffles in the canopy. I wonder if I would
even need a glass cover? If the Luxeons use solid state technology, then
I might just epoxy-coat the exposed connections. Humidity should not
condense on their warmer surfaces, and if I have no aeration causing air
bubbles to pop at the surface (slowly coating the inside of the canopy
with calcium), then the installation should be quite reliable, efficient
and cost effective. :o)

Thanks Roy!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> mylar and urethane glue it to the inside of the canopy.
>>>
>>Thanks for the link. I'm resurrecting an old 120g and I'll probably
>>build a new canopy for it. I can have something made out of stainless
>>steel, so shape is not an issue. The tank top is 60" x 18". I usually
>>order glass plates to cover the top and then install the lighting in a
>>sliding or fixed canopy, in this case, four 4' fluorescent lamps would
>>be
>>my typical approach. On my last canopy, I used the following:
>>2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
>>1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
>>1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
>>..which provided a wide bright spectrum.
>>
>>With your experience with these screw-in fluorescents, do you think it
>>is
>>worthwhile investigating their use, or do you think I should stick with
>>my garden-variety and inexpensive approach using multiple inexpensive
>>lamps?
>
> If it's all you have, screwins are ok. Just. But you're not gonna
> light up a 120 with them unless you want the moral equivalent of
> LED moonlighting.
>
> We've oulived the T12 era and I'd only consuider compact flourescent,
> T5 or T8. T8's you can get a in a pinch at green home recycling
> centers,
> only buy ones with reaaly good angled polished aluminum reflectors,
> pass
> on any that have white reflectors. T5's I'd be surprised if you could
> find in places like this, but I did find a bunch of CF twin 40W
> fixtures
> last year (woo hoo!) so it could happen.
>
>>I looked into halogen spot lighting, but their efficiency is not much
>>better than incandescent, though I may still use it for accents (I want
>>that shadow ripple across the bottom of the tank for the evening
>>transition), and for helping certain plants.
>
> Yeah, I do that too.
>
>>I have the feeling that if I can wait long enough, there will be a
>>solution available using LEDs. Now that would be interesting,
>>especially
>>is I could dim them, and turn on different banks for changes in hue (a
>>slight blue tinge in an open area, red-brown hue over the plants).
>
> Crappy tire sells a cheap 35 or 70W HPS(1) fixture and bulb. And an
> even
> cheaper mercury one. I'm just sayin..
>
> Chose something that uses cheap (ie theres lots of them made) tubes.
> Color
> is personal taste - warm whiteif you prefer red, daylight if you prefer
> blue. I like the look of C50's and grolux but I'm not convinced they
> have
> any effect on plant growth whatsoever.
>
> (1) 12000 lumens from 70W or something like that. A 40W tube is about
> 3000 lumens.
> T8 or T12 or CF.
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net


At 190 lumens/watt, the Luxeons rival the intensity of the fluorescent,
so this will be something I'm going to gather some data sheets on (CRI,
MTBF, efficiency etc). By the time I'm ready to purchase them, they
might even be affordable, otherwise I've been known to occasionally spend
too much on this hobby ;~).

Alternately, the T8 route would probably be the right way to go, thanks.
--
www.NetMax.tk