Green Water! What to do?

[Shorty]

Hi!

I have 55g aboout a month and a half old, moderately planted tank. I
also have 5 ottos in it. It has 100% fluorite substrate, about 2W/gal
light and dyi CO2.
The plants were growing pretty well at the beginning but slown down in
growth and started getting hair and blue algae.

I have tested for amonia and nitrates (aquarium pharmaceuticals test
kits) but couldn't see any.
I figured that the ottos did not get my plants enought nitrogen
nutrients so I decided to add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (I think it's
potassium nitrate). I didn't want to overdo it so I put one dose the
first day. It seemed to help because my amazon started putting out new
leaves. I tested amonia and nitrates again but didn't see any. So I
added more Flourish Nitrogen. And then it all started. The water
started looking cloudy. My tests still don't show any amonia or
nitrate.

Is it possible that the Flourish Nitrogen puts in Nitrogen in a form
that the tests cannot detect but the algae can utilize?

How do I clear out the water besides doing water changes? I usually do
about 25% weekly.

Also, the leaves on my amazons and anubias started looking wavy and my
chain swords' new leaves look pale. I must be lacking some nutrient in
the tank. Any recommendation on what I should add? I think I read that
iron deficiency can cause yellowish/pale color. Iron shouldn't be a
problem since I have a fluorite gravel. But maybe it's the lack of
magnesium stopping the plants from using the iron.

Any suggestions? Product recommendations?

Thank you!

[Fishman]

Green water is free floating algae and a condition of too much plant
nutrients. You may want to revisit how much or how often you are adding
your supplements.

As for clearing up Green water, water changes are helpful but without
resolving the cause, it will just come back. Another option would be the
use of a UV filter. UV filters are adesigned to kill water borne
organizisms. Depending upon the contact time of UV certain organisms will
be killed.

The UV (properly configured for your tank) will cear up your green water
quickly. It does not remove any of the dead material, which will become
trapped in your filter and spike your cycle. So water changes will still be
necessary to keep the nitrogen cycle in harmony.

Fishman

"Shorty" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi!
>
> I have 55g aboout a month and a half old, moderately planted tank. I
> also have 5 ottos in it. It has 100% fluorite substrate, about 2W/gal
> light and dyi CO2.
> The plants were growing pretty well at the beginning but slown down in
> growth and started getting hair and blue algae.
>
> I have tested for amonia and nitrates (aquarium pharmaceuticals test
> kits) but couldn't see any.
> I figured that the ottos did not get my plants enought nitrogen
> nutrients so I decided to add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (I think it's
> potassium nitrate). I didn't want to overdo it so I put one dose the
> first day. It seemed to help because my amazon started putting out new
> leaves. I tested amonia and nitrates again but didn't see any. So I
> added more Flourish Nitrogen. And then it all started. The water
> started looking cloudy. My tests still don't show any amonia or
> nitrate.
>
> Is it possible that the Flourish Nitrogen puts in Nitrogen in a form
> that the tests cannot detect but the algae can utilize?
>
> How do I clear out the water besides doing water changes? I usually do
> about 25% weekly.
>
> Also, the leaves on my amazons and anubias started looking wavy and my
> chain swords' new leaves look pale. I must be lacking some nutrient in
> the tank. Any recommendation on what I should add? I think I read that
> iron deficiency can cause yellowish/pale color. Iron shouldn't be a
> problem since I have a fluorite gravel. But maybe it's the lack of
> magnesium stopping the plants from using the iron.
>
> Any suggestions? Product recommendations?
>
> Thank you!
>

[Charles]

On 27 Jan 2006 09:39:45 -0800, "Shorty"
> wrote:

>Hi!
>
>I have 55g aboout a month and a half old, moderately planted tank. I
>also have 5 ottos in it. It has 100% fluorite substrate, about 2W/gal
>light and dyi CO2.
>The plants were growing pretty well at the beginning but slown down in
>growth and started getting hair and blue algae.
>
>I have tested for amonia and nitrates (aquarium pharmaceuticals test
>kits) but couldn't see any.
>I figured that the ottos did not get my plants enought nitrogen
>nutrients so I decided to add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (I think it's
>potassium nitrate). I didn't want to overdo it so I put one dose the
>first day. It seemed to help because my amazon started putting out new
>leaves. I tested amonia and nitrates again but didn't see any. So I
>added more Flourish Nitrogen. And then it all started. The water
>started looking cloudy. My tests still don't show any amonia or
>nitrate.
>
>Is it possible that the Flourish Nitrogen puts in Nitrogen in a form
>that the tests cannot detect but the algae can utilize?
>
>How do I clear out the water besides doing water changes? I usually do
>about 25% weekly.
>
>Also, the leaves on my amazons and anubias started looking wavy and my
>chain swords' new leaves look pale. I must be lacking some nutrient in
>the tank. Any recommendation on what I should add? I think I read that
>iron deficiency can cause yellowish/pale color. Iron shouldn't be a
>problem since I have a fluorite gravel. But maybe it's the lack of
>magnesium stopping the plants from using the iron.
>
>Any suggestions? Product recommendations?
>
>Thank you!


Two things in adition to what Fishman told you.

Wait it out, many times something will develop that will eat the green
water algae, or it used up whatever nutrients let it occur, and it
goes away.

The other thing, I recently cleaned up a green tank with the HOT
magnum with their micron filter, the green did not come back.

[Elaine T]

Shorty wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I have 55g aboout a month and a half old, moderately planted tank. I
> also have 5 ottos in it. It has 100% fluorite substrate, about 2W/gal
> light and dyi CO2.
> The plants were growing pretty well at the beginning but slown down in
> growth and started getting hair and blue algae.
>
> I have tested for amonia and nitrates (aquarium pharmaceuticals test
> kits) but couldn't see any.
> I figured that the ottos did not get my plants enought nitrogen
> nutrients so I decided to add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (I think it's
> potassium nitrate). I didn't want to overdo it so I put one dose the
> first day. It seemed to help because my amazon started putting out new
> leaves. I tested amonia and nitrates again but didn't see any. So I
> added more Flourish Nitrogen. And then it all started. The water
> started looking cloudy. My tests still don't show any amonia or
> nitrate.
>
> Is it possible that the Flourish Nitrogen puts in Nitrogen in a form
> that the tests cannot detect but the algae can utilize?
>
> How do I clear out the water besides doing water changes? I usually do
> about 25% weekly.
>
> Also, the leaves on my amazons and anubias started looking wavy and my
> chain swords' new leaves look pale. I must be lacking some nutrient in
> the tank. Any recommendation on what I should add? I think I read that
> iron deficiency can cause yellowish/pale color. Iron shouldn't be a
> problem since I have a fluorite gravel. But maybe it's the lack of
> magnesium stopping the plants from using the iron.
>
> Any suggestions? Product recommendations?
>
> Thank you!

What is "moderately planted"? You probably don't have enough plants for
your levels of light and CO2, a common contributor to algae blooms in
brightly lit tanks. Fill out your aquascape with lots of fast-growing
plants like hygrophila or water sprite until the slower growing plants
get big.

You also need to learn a LOT about fertilizing with that much light,
CO2, and almost no fish. Your plants need NPK (nitrogen, phosphate, and
potassium), iron in the water column as well as at the roots, trace
elements, and adequate calcium and magnesium (usually enough is present
in hard water).

Tom Barr's Estimative Index is the best method I've ever run across to
figure out how to fertilize a heavily planted tank.
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1. You'll need to
create a free account to read it. Since you'll have to fertilize with
nitrate and phosphate, you may want to buy bulk fertilizers at
http://gregwatson.com. Otherwise, you can use Tropica Master Grow (only
potash, iron, and trace - you'll need to get N and P separately),
Seachem's Flourish line, or Kent's Botanica line.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Shorty]

Hmmm I was looking for a simple, low-tech solution. But I might invest
in a UV sterilizer if I cannot get rid of this sometime soon.

I will try to wait out and see what happens. I have an eheim ecco
filter. Is there any micron filter that fits it?

What are the usual causes of this type of algae?

[Charles]

On 27 Jan 2006 12:46:01 -0800, "Shorty"
> wrote:

>Hmmm I was looking for a simple, low-tech solution. But I might invest
>in a UV sterilizer if I cannot get rid of this sometime soon.
>
>I will try to wait out and see what happens. I have an eheim ecco
>filter. Is there any micron filter that fits it?
>
>What are the usual causes of this type of algae?


Waiting is pretty low tech.

I don't know of any micron attachments for the Eheim. Diatom filters,
or the HOT Magnum are the only ones I know. Wallmart has an "own
brand" which are renamed Magnums, cheaper.

Causes? Light and nutrients, same for other kinds of algae. It is
just what you happen to have going at the moment.

In the pond game it can be a chase, people change water, and that
brings in a whole load of more nutrients. For ponds I've found that
just waiting is most effective. Either the nutrients get used up, or
something else developes that consumes the green water algae.

[Shorty]

The back of the tank is filled with anacharis that grows like crazy.
Then I have two amazon swords, two chain swords, two anubias, a java
fern and dwarf hairgrass spread all around. So, besides the anacharis,
it's not that dense. Any other fast growin plants that I can add to
take the nutrients away from algae?

[Elaine T]

Shorty wrote:
> The back of the tank is filled with anacharis that grows like crazy.
> Then I have two amazon swords, two chain swords, two anubias, a java
> fern and dwarf hairgrass spread all around. So, besides the anacharis,
> it's not that dense. Any other fast growin plants that I can add to
> take the nutrients away from algae?

Sure. Karen Randall recommends Java Moss (V. dubyana), Water sprite (C.
thalactroides), Water wisteria (H. difformis), Small leafed hygro (H.
polysperma), Giant hygro (Hygrophila. sp.), Willow leaf hygro (H.
angustifolia) and Rotala rotundifolia as "nutrient sponges" for new tanks.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/plants/randall_Setting%20up.html

I've had particularly good luck with Rotala rotundifolia and small
leafed hygro in new tanks. I also like baby's tears (Micranthemum spp.)
for a fast-growing midground plant.

Your plantings do sound pretty light. I usually try to cover at least
50% of the gravel when I'm starting a new planted tank. The plants will
eventually fill in the rest of it.

I also agree with Charles not to do anything extreme. Just add a bunch
more plants, fertilize properly, and things will most likely stabilize.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
Shorty wrote:
> The back of the tank is filled with anacharis that grows like crazy.
> Then I have two amazon swords, two chain swords, two anubias, a java
> fern and dwarf hairgrass spread all around. So, besides the anacharis,
> it's not that dense. Any other fast growin plants that I can add to
> take the nutrients away from algae?

How about hornwort? That stuff grows like a weed at the surface of a tank.
Good luck and later!

[Frank]

Shorty wrote,
>It has 100% fluorite substrate, about 2W/gal light and dyi CO2...........
>.........so I decided to add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (I think it's
>potassium nitrate). I didn't want to overdo it so I put one dose the
>first day. It seemed to help because my amazon started putting out new
>leaves. I tested amonia and nitrates again but didn't see any. So I
>added more Flourish Nitrogen. And then it all started.

2 watts per gal. isn't enough light if your adding CO2. Eather remove
the CO2 or add another 2watts of light per gal. You have to much
plant nutrients for the amount of plants, and now the green water
(algae bloom) is blocking the light from the plants and your still
pumping the CO2.

>How do I clear out the water besides doing water changes? I usually do
>about 25% weekly.

Water changes won't help - the silicate and silicic acid in tap water
just helps the algae spores all the more. The only thing you can do is
eather filter it out with a diatom or micron cartridge filter, or kill
the algae spores. Chemically you could add something like
Algae-Destroyer by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals or Acurel 'E' or 'L' (some
garden supply places carry it as well as some pet shops). OR, an
ultraviolit sterilizer will kill the spores, OR, 200mg of Erythromycin
Phosphate will kill the spores and likely your bio-filter also. No
since in treating the fish in the tank with an antibiotic, so if you go
that way, move the fish.

>Also, the leaves on my amazons and anubias started looking wavy and my
>chain swords' new leaves look pale. I must be lacking some nutrient in
>the tank. Any recommendation on what I should add?\

4 watts lighting per gal. if your going to pump CO2............... Frank

[Elaine T]

Shorty wrote:
> The back of the tank is filled with anacharis that grows like crazy.
> Then I have two amazon swords, two chain swords, two anubias, a java
> fern and dwarf hairgrass spread all around. So, besides the anacharis,
> it's not that dense. Any other fast growin plants that I can add to
> take the nutrients away from algae?
>
Read this! Tom Barr's take on green water.
http://members.aol.com/nwwise01/green_water_notes.html

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Shorty wrote,
>
>>It has 100% fluorite substrate, about 2W/gal light and dyi CO2...........
>>.........so I decided to add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (I think it's
>>potassium nitrate). I didn't want to overdo it so I put one dose the
>>first day. It seemed to help because my amazon started putting out new
>>leaves. I tested amonia and nitrates again but didn't see any. So I
>>added more Flourish Nitrogen. And then it all started.
>
>
> 2 watts per gal. isn't enough light if your adding CO2. Eather remove
> the CO2 or add another 2watts of light per gal. You have to much
> plant nutrients for the amount of plants, and now the green water
> (algae bloom) is blocking the light from the plants and your still
> pumping the CO2.
>
>
>>How do I clear out the water besides doing water changes? I usually do
>>about 25% weekly.
>
>
> Water changes won't help - the silicate and silicic acid in tap water
> just helps the algae spores all the more. The only thing you can do is
> eather filter it out with a diatom or micron cartridge filter, or kill
> the algae spores. Chemically you could add something like
> Algae-Destroyer by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals or Acurel 'E' or 'L' (some
> garden supply places carry it as well as some pet shops). OR, an
> ultraviolit sterilizer will kill the spores, OR, 200mg of Erythromycin
> Phosphate will kill the spores and likely your bio-filter also. No
> since in treating the fish in the tank with an antibiotic, so if you go
> that way, move the fish.
>
>
>>Also, the leaves on my amazons and anubias started looking wavy and my
>>chain swords' new leaves look pale. I must be lacking some nutrient in
>>the tank. Any recommendation on what I should add?\
>
>
> 4 watts lighting per gal. if your going to pump CO2............... Frank

Geez. I'm disagreeing with you twice in one day. Using 4wpg and up
didn't come into fashion until Takashi Amano's work becaue popular.
Sure, you need 4wpg to grow riccia tied to a rock or a lawn of Glosso at
the bottom of a 55 gallon tank! However, according to Greg Watson and
Tom Barr, (and my own experience) 2 wpg is considered the maximum for a
non-CO2 tank, and reasonable for CO2.

http://www.gregwatson.com/NonCO2PlantedAquarium.htm
http://www.rubick.com/aquarium/thomas_barr - see the Lower light CO2
method bit at the bottom.

I've run 15-20 ppm of DIY CO2 on a 29 gallon tank with 60 watts of NO
flourescent light and the plants did beautifully. The only algae was a
bit of spot algae on the glass. I could grow anything I put into that
tank, including difficult plants like Rotala macrantha. I also ran DIY
CO2 on a 55 gallon tank with 80 watts of hardware store light and
indirect sun. That tank was algae free with blooming anubias and
swordplants.

For a planted tank beginner who's just learning fertilizing, I would
never recommend anything more than 2-3 wpg (depending on tank depth).
With 4 wpg, plants will grow fast, but so will algae in the case of a
fertilizer imbalance.

I believe OP's problem is simply that the tank is cycling.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[billb]

try a bag of Olin Shock-it.

on the other hand, just kidding, don't.

--

[Frank]

Elaine T wrote,
>Geez. I'm disagreeing with you twice in one day...........

I see - I'm starting to feel like I'm being hunted down ;-)

> However, according to Greg Watson and
>Tom Barr, (and my own experience) 2 wpg is considered the maximum for a
>non-CO2 tank, and reasonable for CO2.

I'm sure Shorty, like most people, added the DIY CO2 to get fast growth
and color out of the plants. To get eather of these, 2watts per gal.
just won't cut it. High light levels is needed to get the reds and
purples in plants like Limnophila aromatica, Ludwigia repens and
brevipes, Rotala indica etc. And Tom Barr said; "Based off of my
testing, I'd estimate close to 5 to 10 times slower than a CO2 enriched
tank at 2-3 w/gal."
*Note he said, "2-3 w/gal."*

>I've run 15-20 ppm of DIY CO2 on a 29 gallon tank with 60 watts of NO
>flourescent light and the plants did beautifully. The only algae was a
>bit of spot algae on the glass.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I was pointing out to him that he
added to much plant nutrients and CO2 for the amount of light (2 wpg),
in a *newly* set-up planted deep tank (55 gals.).

>For a planted tank beginner who's just learning fertilizing, I would
>never recommend anything more than 2-3 wpg (depending on tank depth).

I agree, but his is not the case, he added DIY CO2! ... For a *CO2
enriched* planted tank beginner who's just learning fertilizing, I
would never recommend anything under 3 to 4 watts per gal.

>With 4 wpg, plants will grow fast, but so will algae in the case of a
>fertilizer imbalance.

Hmmm, that's what happened - with 2 watts per gal.! I see in that site
you posted, that Tom Barr also said; "In a non-CO2 enriched system, a
lower light level is required, generally about 1.5 to 2 wpg is good."
.... Isn't that almost saying that in a system that *is* CO2 enriched, a
higher light level would be required?

>I believe OP's problem is simply that the tank is cycling.

I think the plants were not established, he over fertiled for the
amount of plants, and added CO2 without having enough light for the
depth of the tank.

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Elaine T wrote,
>
>>Geez. I'm disagreeing with you twice in one day...........
>
>
> I see - I'm starting to feel like I'm being hunted down ;-)
>
>
>>However, according to Greg Watson and
>>Tom Barr, (and my own experience) 2 wpg is considered the maximum for a
>>non-CO2 tank, and reasonable for CO2.
>
>
> I'm sure Shorty, like most people, added the DIY CO2 to get fast growth
> and color out of the plants. To get eather of these, 2watts per gal.
> just won't cut it. High light levels is needed to get the reds and
> purples in plants like Limnophila aromatica, Ludwigia repens and
> brevipes, Rotala indica etc. And Tom Barr said; "Based off of my
> testing, I'd estimate close to 5 to 10 times slower than a CO2 enriched
> tank at 2-3 w/gal."
> *Note he said, "2-3 w/gal."*
>
>
>>I've run 15-20 ppm of DIY CO2 on a 29 gallon tank with 60 watts of NO
>>flourescent light and the plants did beautifully. The only algae was a
>>bit of spot algae on the glass.
>
>
> I didn't say it couldn't be done, I was pointing out to him that he
> added to much plant nutrients and CO2 for the amount of light (2 wpg),
> in a *newly* set-up planted deep tank (55 gals.).
>
>
>>For a planted tank beginner who's just learning fertilizing, I would
>>never recommend anything more than 2-3 wpg (depending on tank depth).
>
>
> I agree, but his is not the case, he added DIY CO2! ... For a *CO2
> enriched* planted tank beginner who's just learning fertilizing, I
> would never recommend anything under 3 to 4 watts per gal.
>
>
>>With 4 wpg, plants will grow fast, but so will algae in the case of a
>>fertilizer imbalance.
>
>
> Hmmm, that's what happened - with 2 watts per gal.! I see in that site
> you posted, that Tom Barr also said; "In a non-CO2 enriched system, a
> lower light level is required, generally about 1.5 to 2 wpg is good."
> ... Isn't that almost saying that in a system that *is* CO2 enriched, a
> higher light level would be required?
>
>
>>I believe OP's problem is simply that the tank is cycling.
>
>
> I think the plants were not established, he over fertiled for the
> amount of plants, and added CO2 without having enough light for the
> depth of the tank.

I see what you're saying. Perhaps it is easier to balance CO2 and
lighting with more light. When I think about it, I do usually have less
algae on the glass in my sunlit tanks than the fluorescent-only ones. I
haven't had to scrape the 10 gallon that sits in the window in months.
(touch wood)

Maybe one of these years I'll win the lottery and set up a tank with 4-5
wpg of 8000K CF light, glass diffusers, and a CO2 tank with a pH probe
and regulator just to see what it's like. I suspect I would end up
reducing the lighting and CO2 to avoid all the endless pruning. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Richard Sexton]

In article <mMtCf.249$8r1.101@trnddc05>, Fishman > wrote:
>Green water is free floating algae and a condition of too much plant
>nutrients. You may want to revisit how much or how often you are adding
>your supplements.
>
>As for clearing up Green water, water changes are helpful but without
>resolving the cause, it will just come back.

The cause, invariably, is not enough water changes.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
Shorty > wrote:
>Hmmm I was looking for a simple, low-tech solution. But I might invest
>in a UV sterilizer if I cannot get rid of this sometime soon.

Change water as often as you can till you'e sick of it then keep
doing it. if the infestation is old you have half an ounce of algae
spores lurking in your gravel. Each time you change water they bounce
back. You have to remove them all first, then you can set about to
making conditions right.

Tear it down and start again? or Diatom the crap out of it
while chaging water. A lot.

Then fertilize normally.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
Shorty > wrote:
>The back of the tank is filled with anacharis that grows like crazy.
>Then I have two amazon swords, two chain swords, two anubias, a java
>fern and dwarf hairgrass spread all around. So, besides the anacharis,
>it's not that dense. Any other fast growin plants that I can add to
>take the nutrients away from algae?


Hornwort. Cuts the light down, which willl shock the algae
a bit while not hurting yout plants. Consumes massive amounts
of waste. Moss is good for this too.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>Sure. Karen Randall recommends Java Moss (V. dubyana), Water sprite (C.

Name change alert: Vesicularia dubyana is he proper name for what
we call "Christmas moss". Java moss is now properly:

"The Java Moss has been identified many years ago by Prof. Zen
Iwatsuki at the Hattori Botanical Laboratory in Japan as a
species of Taxiphyllum - Taxiphyllum barbieri (Card. & Coppey) Iwats.
(Iwatsuki 1982). The name is based on a comparison of the Java Moss
grown in Japan and the herbarium specimen of Taxiphyllum barbieri from
Vietnam. Because of the lack of moss specimens with spore structures
(fruiting specimens), this identification of Java Moss has to be
accepted with reservation."

Ref:
"A case of mistaken identity? What is the true identity of Java Moss and
other aquarium mosses sold in Singapore shops?" in Vol 102 of the Singapore
Scientist, a publication by the Singapore Science Center."

Url:
http://sea.nus.edu.sg/aquatic-mosses.pdf


for more mossy goodness see:

http://www.aquamoss.net/Java-Moss/Java%20Moss%20Vesicularia%20dubyana.htm


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>Read this! Tom Barr's take on green water.
>http://members.aol.com/nwwise01/green_water_notes.html

An English translation will be available shortly.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>Geez. I'm disagreeing with you twice in one day. Using 4wpg and up
>didn't come into fashion until Takashi Amano's work becaue popular.
>Sure, you need 4wpg to grow riccia tied to a rock or a lawn of Glosso at
>the bottom of a 55 gallon tank! However, according to Greg Watson and
>Tom Barr, (and my own experience) 2 wpg is considered the maximum for a
>non-CO2 tank, and reasonable for CO2.
>
>http://www.gregwatson.com/NonCO2PlantedAquarium.htm
>http://www.rubick.com/aquarium/thomas_barr - see the Lower light CO2
>method bit at the bottom.

I am not sure Japan beat Germany to the HID lamp race. seems to me the Dupla
folks were the ones that popularized it a decade earlier. But it did seem like
only a few years after finding out about Dupla that Japanese bulbs began being
discussed. At that time too peope were also playing with Mercury vapour lamps
and there was some guy here who ignored everybodys protests about being the wrong
color light, went ahead and did it and have garbage bgs full of plants to give away.
But I digress.

You don't HAVE to have CO2 to use 4wpg. You could use flourish Excel (I do)
and/or have floating plants. A 50% cover of floating plants will give you both
good srog light but something that will take over and cut it out of things get
out of hand, that is the floating plants will go nuts rather than any algae.

I've had 5wpg over a 50gal tank since November. So far no problems. No Co2, occasional
Excel use, 10% floating plant cover. It gets some sunlight too although not bloody much
this time of the year. Lemme see if I can get some pics up of it today. Barr's EI
is all I do for ferts, although I'm tending more towards Booth's idea of daily ferts as I
can see in the crypt leaves on what days they were fertilized - thee's a slight growth
spurt/curl. Maybe once a day isn/t even enough? Half strength feeindgs twice a day maybe?

>I believe OP's problem is simply that the tank is cycling.

Yup. A dose of Flourish Excel will hurt it too, but now you need change even
more water as all that dead algae will produce ammonia which guess what, makes
more algae.

--
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Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>Read this! Tom Barr's take on green water.
>>http://members.aol.com/nwwise01/green_water_notes.html
>
>
> An English translation will be available shortly.
>
Dang it. Give a coffee warning before you do that! Now I've got to
clean my monitor.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>Sure. Karen Randall recommends Java Moss (V. dubyana), Water sprite (C.
>
>
> Name change alert: Vesicularia dubyana is he proper name for what
> we call "Christmas moss". Java moss is now properly:
>
> "The Java Moss has been identified many years ago by Prof. Zen
> Iwatsuki at the Hattori Botanical Laboratory in Japan as a
> species of Taxiphyllum - Taxiphyllum barbieri (Card. & Coppey) Iwats.
> (Iwatsuki 1982). The name is based on a comparison of the Java Moss
> grown in Japan and the herbarium specimen of Taxiphyllum barbieri from
> Vietnam. Because of the lack of moss specimens with spore structures
> (fruiting specimens), this identification of Java Moss has to be
> accepted with reservation."
>
> Ref:
> "A case of mistaken identity? What is the true identity of Java Moss and
> other aquarium mosses sold in Singapore shops?" in Vol 102 of the Singapore
> Scientist, a publication by the Singapore Science Center."
>
> Url:
> http://sea.nus.edu.sg/aquatic-mosses.pdf
>
>
> for more mossy goodness see:
>
> http://www.aquamoss.net/Java-Moss/Java%20Moss%20Vesicularia%20dubyana.htm
>
Most interesting of all that is that T. barbieri may not even be right.
I used to think scientific names were clear identifiers of organisms.
Lately, I've found it easier to say "electric blue hap" rather than
try to give the half-dozen valid and invalid scientific names that
identify the two extremely similar fish with that common name.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:26:19 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:


>> for more mossy goodness see:
>>
>> http://www.aquamoss.net/Java-Moss/Java%20Moss%20Vesicularia%20dubyana.htm

Great Link - thanks!

Java Moss - is it Vesicularia dubyana?

I think I'll keep calling it Java Moss. Here in the U.S., a number of
us don't trust anything with dubya in its name.

Mr Gardener

[Elaine T]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:26:19 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>for more mossy goodness see:
>>>
>>> http://www.aquamoss.net/Java-Moss/Java%20Moss%20Vesicularia%20dubyana.htm
>
>
> Great Link - thanks!
>
> Java Moss - is it Vesicularia dubyana?
>
> I think I'll keep calling it Java Moss. Here in the U.S., a number of
> us don't trust anything with dubya in its name.
>
> Mr Gardener

Whoops. I think you confused me with Richard. I must be getting more
curmudgeonly in my old age. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Elaine T wrote,
>Maybe one of these years I'll win the lottery and set up a tank with 4-5
>wpg of 8000K CF light, glass diffusers, and a CO2 tank with a pH probe
>and regulator just to see what it's like. I suspect I would end up
>reducing the lighting and CO2 to avoid all the endless pruning. ;-)

I did that - well, mabe not quite 8000K CF light, CO2 and regulator,
but enough for endless pruning. The CO2 has been long removed, plants
grow quite a bit slower and still have their color, and the endless
pruning cut back to once every 5 to 6 weeks............. Frank

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Elaine T wrote,
>
>>Maybe one of these years I'll win the lottery and set up a tank with 4-5
>>wpg of 8000K CF light, glass diffusers, and a CO2 tank with a pH probe
>>and regulator just to see what it's like. I suspect I would end up
>>reducing the lighting and CO2 to avoid all the endless pruning. ;-)
>
>
> I did that - well, mabe not quite 8000K CF light, CO2 and regulator,
> but enough for endless pruning. The CO2 has been long removed, plants
> grow quite a bit slower and still have their color, and the endless
> pruning cut back to once every 5 to 6 weeks............. Frank
>
ROFL. Well then, I don't need to try it. I like pruning about once a
month or so. When I had a 55, I planted it with big amazon swords,
grasses and crypts. I only had one big patch of hygrophila to clip and
sell. It was pleasantly low maintenance.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Shorty]

Well, after all.... I realized that my five little ottos would not
provide all the nutrients my plants needed... I started adding (slowly,
half the recommended amount) of micronutrients and potassium in
addition to nitrogen. After a few days, the water cleared up completely
and my plants are growing faster. I also added some flourish tabs for
the swords.

I will be adding about 10 plants more this week. My plan is to get the
whole tank established with plants. Later on, add enough fish to
support the plants and finally remove the filter and get the plants to
do all the filtering.

What would be recommended amount of fish for this type of setup?

[Richard Sexton]

In article m>,
Shorty > wrote:
>Well, after all.... I realized that my five little ottos would not
>provide all the nutrients my plants needed... I started adding (slowly,
>half the recommended amount) of micronutrients and potassium in
>addition to nitrogen. After a few days, the water cleared up completely
>and my plants are growing faster. I also added some flourish tabs for
>the swords.
>
>I will be adding about 10 plants more this week. My plan is to get the
>whole tank established with plants. Later on, add enough fish to
>support the plants and finally remove the filter and get the plants to
>do all the filtering.
>
>What would be recommended amount of fish for this type of setup?
>

Brave soul. Any fish will do - about one per ten gallons. Add a sponge
filter and you can probably get 5X that.

What about shrimp?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Elaine T]

Shorty wrote:
> Well, after all.... I realized that my five little ottos would not
> provide all the nutrients my plants needed... I started adding (slowly,
> half the recommended amount) of micronutrients and potassium in
> addition to nitrogen. After a few days, the water cleared up completely
> and my plants are growing faster. I also added some flourish tabs for
> the swords.
>
> I will be adding about 10 plants more this week. My plan is to get the
> whole tank established with plants. Later on, add enough fish to
> support the plants and finally remove the filter and get the plants to
> do all the filtering.
>
> What would be recommended amount of fish for this type of setup?

I'm so glad your tank has settled down.

To support a heavily planted, brightly lit tank, my tanks require a fish
load of about two small fish/gallon. YMMV. For example, I have a 10g
tank in the window that seemed in balance with 20 adult guppies and a
lot of babies. Once I got up to 30 guppies, nitrate was accumulating.

I'm working with unfiltered tanks myself, and it's not easy to get a
setup where the ammonia and nitrite are broken down fast enough for a
fish load that supports rapid plant growth. I think the choices are to
balance plants and fish with a filter, or run filterless with a light
fish load but add nitrate and phosphate.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
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[Shorty]

Thank you all for the comments!