Fluke burden ? was Dying (?) fish

[soup]

Looking on the 'net (very dangerous trying to diagnose things on the
'net) but the description seems to follow exactly the fishes behaviour
ie lying on the bottom but swimming OK when disturbed as to a fluke
burden am thinking off getting fluke tabs tomorrow does this sound about
right to the members of this group?
Yes I know the tank is far too small for two goldfish (5 GL) but
realistically there is no chance of getting a bigger tank. I tried to
tell the wife that two was too many (indeed it is to small for one
goldfish) but she would not listen.

--
This post contains no hidden meanings, no implications and certainly no
hidden agendas
so it should be taken at face value. The wrong words may be used this
is due to my limitations with the English language .

[Koi-lo]

"soup" > wrote in message
...
> Looking on the 'net (very dangerous trying to diagnose things on the
> 'net) but the description seems to follow exactly the fishes behaviour
> ie lying on the bottom but swimming OK when disturbed as to a fluke
> burden am thinking off getting fluke tabs tomorrow does this sound about
> right to the members of this group?

It's hard to diagnose over the net or a telephone. Is the fish scraping
itself against things or trying to stay near an filter exhaust hose, fall
where the oxygen is the highest? You can use Clout as it's an excellent
product and it works for several parasites. It's one of the best in my
opinion and safe when used as directed.

> Yes I know the tank is far too small for two goldfish (5 GL) but
> realistically there is no chance of getting a bigger tank. I tried to
> tell the wife that two was too many (indeed it is to small for one
> goldfish) but she would not listen.

If all she allows you to have is a 5g tank I would treat these fish for
parasites if you believe that's what they have, then find a home for them.
A GF will outgrow even a 10g tank in months if well cared for. There are
small fish you can replace them with such as a few tetras or guppies.

--
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Aquariums since 1952
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[Steve]

soup wrote:
> Looking on the 'net (very dangerous trying to diagnose things on the
> 'net) but the description seems to follow exactly the fishes behaviour
> ie lying on the bottom but swimming OK when disturbed as to a fluke
> burden am thinking off getting fluke tabs tomorrow does this sound about
> right to the members of this group?
> Yes I know the tank is far too small for two goldfish (5 GL) but
> realistically there is no chance of getting a bigger tank. I tried to
> tell the wife that two was too many (indeed it is to small for one
> goldfish) but she would not listen.
>
I would recommend against using medications of any kind. They just
stress the fish more and can lead to death, in my experience. Ok, if the
fish's living circumstances were great and you had real evidence of a
particular parasite or other pathogen then ok, you might treat with
exactly the right stuff. Dr Solo's (Ingrid's) site is good for goldfish
information.

Just do partial (~30%) water changes every couple of days - perhaps
daily at first, to get your water back into shape. Keep the filter clean
but only use tank water to clean it and re-use the media (retains good
bacteria).

And get a bigger aquarium. A bare 20 gallon aquarium (long type is
better) may only cost $20 or $30 US, and hopefully you can re-use your
existing filter. Add some cheap, live "bunch" plants if there's
daylight. If you need a top to keep the cat out that'll cost a bit more
but there are home-made solutions.

Good luck! Fish actually are fun :), especially with live plants and snails.
Steve

[Koi-lo]

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
> soup wrote:
>> Yes I know the tank is far too small for two goldfish (5 GL) but
>> realistically *there is no chance of getting a bigger tank*. I tried to
>> tell the wife that two was too many (indeed it is to small for one
>> goldfish) but she would not listen.
======
> And get a bigger aquarium.

He claimed that was out of the question - see above.

A bare 20 gallon aquarium (long type is
> better) may only cost $20 or $30 US,

I live in the USA and tanks that size, unless they can be found used at a
yard sale or flea market, run anywhere from $40 to $70.00 which includes the
canopy if you're lucky. The weight will demand he buy a sturdy stand which
runs about the same as a tank,... he'll also need a filter for a larger tank
and a reflector - another $30/$40 or so. And he'll need the wall space
which this couple may not have.

-
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
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[Steve]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>> soup wrote:
>>
>>> Yes I know the tank is far too small for two goldfish (5 GL) but
>>> realistically *there is no chance of getting a bigger tank*. I tried to
>>> tell the wife that two was too many (indeed it is to small for one
>>> goldfish) but she would not listen.
>
> ======
>
>> And get a bigger aquarium.
>
>
> He claimed that was out of the question - see above.
>
> A bare 20 gallon aquarium (long type is
>
>> better) may only cost $20 or $30 US,
>
>
> I live in the USA and tanks that size, unless they can be found used at
> a yard sale or flea market, run anywhere from $40 to $70.00 which
> includes the canopy if you're lucky. The weight will demand he buy a
> sturdy stand which runs about the same as a tank,... he'll also need a
> filter for a larger tank and a reflector - another $30/$40 or so. And
> he'll need the wall space which this couple may not have.
>
> -

I haven't bought a tank for a while, and maybe they've gone up. Also I'm
in Canada. I mentioned a bare tank though, no canopy, no glass top or
other overpriced items. Is a bare tank really $40US at a chain like
PetSmart?

As for a stand, a strong old dresser or desk will do. Or the dining room
buffet if you can handle water stains. I've had aquariums on all 3 types
of furniture, and still have a small tank on the buffet.

Your solution of adopting the fish out may be the best answer for these
folks, however. Or euthanasia - just don't "flush" the poor fish, a
horrible way to go.

Congratulations to the Original Poster for successfully keeping the fish
for a year! Most goldfish don't last that long due to lack of care,
samll bowls etc.

Steve

[soup]

Koi-lo wrote:
> If all she allows you to have is a 5g tank I would treat these fish
> for parasites if you believe that's what they have, then find a home
> for them. A GF will outgrow even a 10g tank in months if well cared
> for. There are small fish you can replace them with such as a few
> tetras or guppies.

It is not so much what she will allow it is what I have access to, it is
not really my set-up rather it is my son's I greped the 'net and all
sorts before we had got any fish and the 10 Gl per fish seemed to be the
quoted figure for GF, so I told her off this but she wouldn't listen to
me (shades of her remembering a bowl with a fish in it).
Have just noticed too that the fish in question has a yellowish tint
and its fins seem to have quite a bit of yellow in them, would this be
connected, or are the two not connected, this yellowishness just being
its mature colour?
Will treating for flukes harm the fish if they do not have them?
Behaviour seems to agree with description on the 'net but I am no
expert, obviously I will talk to the chap(ess) at the aquarium shop
tommorow,but these people TEND (oh no looking for specialist advice on a
Saturday) to only want to make a sale so may not get the best advice.





--
This post contains no hidden meanings, no implications and certainly no
hidden agendas so it should be taken at face value. The wrong words
may be used this is due to my limitations with the English language .

[Koi-lo]

"soup" > wrote in message
k...
>
> It is not so much what she will allow it is what I have access to, it is
> not really my set-up rather it is my son's I greped the 'net and all
> sorts before we had got any fish and the 10 Gl per fish seemed to be the
> quoted figure for GF, so I told her off this but she wouldn't listen to
> me (shades of her remembering a bowl with a fish in it).

But why would she care what size tank you purchased for you son? I guess
you lost me here.

> Have just noticed too that the fish in question has a yellowish tint
> and its fins seem to have quite a bit of yellow in them, would this be
> connected, or are the two not connected, this yellowishness just being
> its mature colour?

I don't see that as being connected. How long do you have these fish? Have
you been doing partial water changes? Have you checked the water for
ammonia and nitrites? What is the PH? Could your son have been overfeeding
them?

> Will treating for flukes harm the fish if they do not have them?

No, but that may NOT be the problem here. How long has this tank been set
up?

> Behaviour seems to agree with description on the 'net but I am no
> expert, obviously I will talk to the chap(ess) at the aquarium shop
> tommorow,but these people TEND (oh no looking for specialist advice on a
> Saturday) to only want to make a sale so may not get the best advice.

You'll find a lot of that on the net as well. Please answer the questions
above so we can better help you. Have you used dechlorinators when you do
the partial water changes to deactivate chlorine and chloramines?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
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[Koi-lo]

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> I live in the USA and tanks that size, unless they can be found used at a
>> yard sale or flea market, run anywhere from $40 to $70.00 which includes
>> the canopy if you're lucky. The weight will demand he buy a sturdy stand
>> which runs about the same as a tank,... he'll also need a filter for a
>> larger tank and a reflector - another $30/$40 or so. And he'll need the
>> wall space which this couple may not have.
========================>> -
> I haven't bought a tank for a while, and maybe they've gone up. Also I'm
> in Canada. I mentioned a bare tank though, no canopy, no glass top or
> other overpriced items. Is a bare tank really $40US at a chain like
> PetSmart?

Yes, or more! It depends.

> As for a stand, a strong old dresser or desk will do. Or the dining room
> buffet if you can handle water stains. I've had aquariums on all 3 types
> of furniture, and still have a small tank on the buffet.

I have as well but never over 10g since furniture isn't designed to hold a
lot of dead weight such as a tank. If the tank leaks or the filter runs
over (Aquaclears have been guilty of this) the furniture can be ruined.
Ruined by stains, warping and glued joints letting go. The top can also sag
from the weight over time. If it's an old piece of furniture of little
value then it may be worth a try.

> Your solution of adopting the fish out may be the best answer for these
> folks, however. Or euthanasia - just don't "flush" the poor fish, a
> horrible way to go.

I think he can save it if we can pinpoint the problem a little better. In
any case a GF in a 5g tank will not work.

> Congratulations to the Original Poster for successfully keeping the fish
> for a year! Most goldfish don't last that long due to lack of care, samll
> bowls etc.
>
> Steve
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
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[Steve]

soup wrote:
> Will treating for flukes harm the fish if they do not have them?
> Behaviour seems to agree with description on the 'net but I am no
> expert, obviously I will talk to the chap(ess) at the aquarium shop
> tommorow,but these people TEND (oh no looking for specialist advice on a
> Saturday) to only want to make a sale so may not get the best advice.
>
>

Congratulations on keeping the fish healthy for so long! It's also
heart-warming that you have the interest and caring nature to want to
keep the fish healthy.

I'll repeat that I don't think chemicals are the answer. Healthy water
and food, enough room, general lack of stress... these things help
maintain a strong immune system in the fish that can ward off parasites.

Where would your parasites have come from? If they came in with the fish
a year ago and are now causing a problem it may be because as the fish
became bigger they produced more waste and are now crowded, stressed and
beginning to have problems.

In addition to being toxic in themselves, fish "medicines" can adversely
affect your biological filter. That would lead to ammonia, a mini-cycle,
more stress...

Just go with the water changes (my vote).

I wish you the best with your fish!
Steve

[soup]

Koi-lo wrote:
> But why would she care what size tank you purchased for you son? I
> guess you lost me here.


I didn't buy the tank it was given to him as a christmas (2004) present,
this one :-
http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=111&PROD_ID=01130610011001

or if that mucks up in the wrapping

http://tinyurl.com/as3zw

> I don't see that as being connected. How long do you have these fish?

Fish we have had for about a year. .

>Have you been doing partial water changes?

Have been changing 40% of the water every one to two weeks (usually more
towards the two weeks) always with water that has been treated

>Have you checked the water for ammonia and nitrites? What is the PH?

Don't know the levels but have done nothing different lately and the
fish are usually fine

>Could your son have been overfeeding them?
..
Doubt it (unless he sneaks them food in the middle of the night) , he
doesn't do anything to them at all, after the "flush" of the first
couple of weeks, he basically has nothing to do with them at all

> No, but that may NOT be the problem here. How long has this tank
> been set up?

About a year.

>Have you used
> dechlorinators when you do the partial water changes to deactivate
> chlorine and chloramines?

Yup and water is left in a bucket for roughly a day to allow it to come
to room temperature and to give the "safe guard" (a dechlorinator) time
to work.
--
This post contains no hidden meanings, no implications and certainly no
hidden agendas so it should be taken at face value. The wrong words
may be used this is due to my limitations with the English language .

[[email protected]]

Medication can be very detrimental and as others said, kill the biofilter. One way
of treating fish is "dips".
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/treatment2.htm#peroxide_dip
this is a dip for flukes that is very mild but effective
but yellowishness is a symptom of oodinium
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/symptom/byname.htm#Oodinium
quick cure is somewhat less toxic overall, but by no means mild. be sure to change
water during the treatment, keep nitrates as low as possible.
one way to deal with treatments is the tub to tub method rather than putting the
medications into the tank.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#TUB_TO_TUB

Ingrid

"soup" > wrote:
> Have just noticed too that the fish in question has a yellowish tint
>and its fins seem to have quite a bit of yellow in them, would this be
>connected, or are the two not connected, this yellowishness just being
>its mature colour?
> Will treating for flukes harm the fish if they do not have them?
>Behaviour seems to agree with description on the 'net but I am no
>expert, obviously I will talk to the chap(ess) at the aquarium shop
>tommorow,but these people TEND (oh no looking for specialist advice on a
>Saturday) to only want to make a sale so may not get the best advice.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Koi-lo]

"soup" > wrote in message
k...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> But why would she care what size tank you purchased for you son? I
>> guess you lost me here.
>
>
> I didn't buy the tank it was given to him as a christmas (2004) present,
> this one :-
> http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=111&PROD_ID=01130610011001
>
> or if that mucks up in the wrapping
>
> http://tinyurl.com/as3zw
>
>> I don't see that as being connected. How long do you have these fish?
>
> Fish we have had for about a year. .
>
>>Have you been doing partial water changes?
>
> Have been changing 40% of the water every one to two weeks (usually more
> towards the two weeks) always with water that has been treated
>
> >Have you checked the water for ammonia and nitrites? What is the PH?
>
> Don't know the levels but have done nothing different lately and the
> fish are usually fine
>
>>Could your son have been overfeeding them?
> .
> Doubt it (unless he sneaks them food in the middle of the night) , he
> doesn't do anything to them at all, after the "flush" of the first
> couple of weeks, he basically has nothing to do with them at all
>
>> No, but that may NOT be the problem here. How long has this tank
>> been set up?
>
> About a year.
>
>>Have you used
>> dechlorinators when you do the partial water changes to deactivate
>> chlorine and chloramines?
>
> Yup and water is left in a bucket for roughly a day to allow it to come
> to room temperature and to give the "safe guard" (a dechlorinator) time
> to work.
> --
> This post contains no hidden meanings, no implications and certainly no
> hidden agendas so it should be taken at face value. The wrong words
> may be used this is due to my limitations with the English language .
====================
Going over the whole thread I doubt it's a parasitic problem since you had
the fish for a year. I will say that sometimes with the best of care they
still sicken and die. Like people and all other life forms, not all will
live. I recently had a golden moor goldfish that was thriving and growing
suddenly isolate itself, and quickly die. It had no obvious signs of
parasites or injury, no gravel stuck in it's throat, ... no reason I could
find. It just went.....

I'm sorry but still don't understand why your mate would object to replacing
this small tank with a larger one knowing they will surly die if you don't.
If you plan to keep these fish you will need at the minimum a 20Long tank.
If a larger tank is out of the question for whatever reason, then I would
start looking for a home for them......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
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[[email protected]]

OK.. it is better for the fish to test for nitrates and keep it at or below 20 ppm.
after a couple weeks it will be evident how much water changes need to be done.
the cheap flake food typically sold for fish is mostly waste, that is grains that go
into the fish and come out without digestion. this fouls the water as the organics
are broken down by bacteria. OTOH, most people waaaay overfeed their fish.
GF normally "graze" on itty bitty critters all day long. If they get a big meal the
food goes thru their short intestines too fast to break it all down and too much of
the meal comes out not completely digested which means more organics.
one of the reasons there is a 10 gallon per GF recommendation is that is the volume
of water needed to keep nitrates at 20 ppm with once weekly water changes if high
quality and less of the food is fed.
water that spikes above 20 ppm more than once a week means: too little water, too
much fish, too much food, and, fouled gravel or filter. if the gravel or filter is
loaded with wastes it will put too much breakdown into the tank water.
Ingrid

"soup" > wrote:
>Have been changing 40% of the water every one to two weeks (usually more
>towards the two weeks) always with water that has been treated

>>Could your son have been overfeeding them?
>.
>Doubt it (unless he sneaks them food in the middle of the night) , he
>doesn't do anything to them at all, after the "flush" of the first
>couple of weeks, he basically has nothing to do with them at all



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE