Help, Newbie problems.

[Duane]

Hi folks,
I'm new to the aquarium thing, I've been reading all I could find on
the net before I started my tank. Here is what I have done. I got a
55G tank along with a Penguin bio wheel filter and all the other
things
you set up a tank with. I cycled the tank for 6 weeks with 3 Pink
Gouramis. Once all the chemistry readings came out like they should I
added a few fish and all the sudden my Gouramis got vicious with the
new fish. I gave them to a friend with an established tank and they
are doing fine there. Now in my tank are 2 Blue dwarf gouramis, 2
Angelfish, 2 plecos, 2 bala sharks, 3 green corys and 1 black
knifefish. all was good for about 2 weeks after they were all in, then
I noticed one of the corys not acting well. He died last night without
any visible signs of anything on his body. Now I notice that my black
Angelfish has some white stuff on its body, it is irregular shaped and
looks kind of fuzzy. This has me worried. Any ideas on what I should
do or look for? I do regular water changes and have add a small amount
of salt to the tank. Aside from that I don't know where to go with it.
If it matters the fish all came from Petsmart. I hope you all can help
me and thanks for your time reading this.

Duane Wible
Duane Wible

[NetMax]

"Duane" > wrote in message
...
> Hi folks,
> I'm new to the aquarium thing, I've been reading all I could find on
> the net before I started my tank. Here is what I have done. I got a
> 55G tank along with a Penguin bio wheel filter and all the other
> things
> you set up a tank with. I cycled the tank for 6 weeks with 3 Pink
> Gouramis. Once all the chemistry readings came out like they should I
> added a few fish and all the sudden my Gouramis got vicious with the
> new fish. I gave them to a friend with an established tank and they
> are doing fine there. Now in my tank are 2 Blue dwarf gouramis, 2
> Angelfish, 2 plecos, 2 bala sharks, 3 green corys and 1 black
> knifefish. all was good for about 2 weeks after they were all in, then
> I noticed one of the corys not acting well. He died last night without
> any visible signs of anything on his body. Now I notice that my black
> Angelfish has some white stuff on its body, it is irregular shaped and
> looks kind of fuzzy. This has me worried. Any ideas on what I should
> do or look for? I do regular water changes and have add a small amount
> of salt to the tank. Aside from that I don't know where to go with it.
> If it matters the fish all came from Petsmart. I hope you all can help
> me and thanks for your time reading this.
>
> Duane Wible
> Duane Wible
>


Sounds like a fungus, and fungus is typically only a problem in thick water
(high in DOCs) or when the fish have had their slime-coat stripped off (any
various forms of stress). I would check to see that you're not having a
mini-cycle (measure the NH3/4, NO2 and NO3 again), that the water is stable
(pH and kH) and not to any extreme (gH). If everything checks out, then an
anti-fungal would be in order, though normally, fungus can be controlled
with quality water and healthy fish (varied diet and proper environment).
Melafix and Pimafix might be another alternative, though these are better as
preventatives than cures (I recommend them with more fragile fish). Check
if the anti-fungal has any effect on your bacterial culture (my experience
with anti-fungals is limited, and there is variation by brand and what would
be locally available to you).

All this advice is circumstantial. Fish bring all sorts of diseases with
them, either dormant or even just as carriers. I usually hold my breath (in
a manner of speaking) for about 3 months. In that time, most of what they
bring will manifest itself. The most experienced hobbyists can find
themselves in your situation.

Once you are past this 3 month threshold, and you have a good maintenance
plan in place, you begin wondering why you ever thought of fish as fragile
;~). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Duane]

>Sounds like a fungus, and fungus is typically only a problem in thick water
>(high in DOCs) or when the fish have had their slime-coat stripped off (any
>various forms of stress). I would check to see that you're not having a
>mini-cycle (measure the NH3/4, NO2 and NO3 again), that the water is stable
>(pH and kH) and not to any extreme (gH). If everything checks out, then an
>anti-fungal would be in order, though normally, fungus can be controlled
>with quality water and healthy fish (varied diet and proper environment).
>Melafix and Pimafix might be another alternative, though these are better as
>preventatives than cures (I recommend them with more fragile fish). Check
>if the anti-fungal has any effect on your bacterial culture (my experience
>with anti-fungals is limited, and there is variation by brand and what would
>be locally available to you).
>
>All this advice is circumstantial. Fish bring all sorts of diseases with
>them, either dormant or even just as carriers. I usually hold my breath (in
>a manner of speaking) for about 3 months. In that time, most of what they
>bring will manifest itself. The most experienced hobbyists can find
>themselves in your situation.
>
>Once you are past this 3 month threshold, and you have a good maintenance
>plan in place, you begin wondering why you ever thought of fish as fragile
>;~). hth


Thanks for the quick reply Max, I went and picked up some anti-fungus
medicine and now I have more questions. The med says to remove
charcoal from my filters while using it, with the Penguin 350 it has
the charcoal built into the filters, what do I do? Also do you have
any ideas what I should watch for to tell if it is working. The med
contains Malachite Green, is this the right stuff to help my fish. I
also noticed early this morn that the other Angelfish is now starting
to show the same stuff so I really hope this stuff works. I would hate
to lose them. Thanks again for your help.

Duane Wible

[NetMax]

"Duane" > wrote in message
...
>
>>Sounds like a fungus, and fungus is typically only a problem in thick
>>water
>>(high in DOCs) or when the fish have had their slime-coat stripped off
>>(any
>>various forms of stress). I would check to see that you're not having a
>>mini-cycle (measure the NH3/4, NO2 and NO3 again), that the water is
>>stable
>>(pH and kH) and not to any extreme (gH). If everything checks out, then
>>an
>>anti-fungal would be in order, though normally, fungus can be controlled
>>with quality water and healthy fish (varied diet and proper environment).
>>Melafix and Pimafix might be another alternative, though these are better
>>as
>>preventatives than cures (I recommend them with more fragile fish). Check
>>if the anti-fungal has any effect on your bacterial culture (my experience
>>with anti-fungals is limited, and there is variation by brand and what
>>would
>>be locally available to you).
>>
>>All this advice is circumstantial. Fish bring all sorts of diseases with
>>them, either dormant or even just as carriers. I usually hold my breath
>>(in
>>a manner of speaking) for about 3 months. In that time, most of what they
>>bring will manifest itself. The most experienced hobbyists can find
>>themselves in your situation.
>>
>>Once you are past this 3 month threshold, and you have a good maintenance
>>plan in place, you begin wondering why you ever thought of fish as fragile
>>;~). hth
>
>
> Thanks for the quick reply Max, I went and picked up some anti-fungus
> medicine and now I have more questions. The med says to remove
> charcoal from my filters while using it, with the Penguin 350 it has
> the charcoal built into the filters, what do I do? Also do you have
> any ideas what I should watch for to tell if it is working. The med
> contains Malachite Green, is this the right stuff to help my fish. I
> also noticed early this morn that the other Angelfish is now starting
> to show the same stuff so I really hope this stuff works. I would hate
> to lose them. Thanks again for your help.
>
> Duane Wible
>

The general consensus on carbon filtration is that after a few weeks, it
loses much of its capability, so its effect on medication might be
negligible.

It's very inaccurate to make predictions without seeing the symptoms, and
even then, I'm not the best person to ask. In alt.aquaria, Frank is quite
knowledgeable treating fish. There are also many web sites which have
diagnostic flowcharts for symptoms=disease=treatment, but I'm at work and
don't have access to my bookmarks here. There might be some on my website
which are still current.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/Links/links.shtml#fother

Fungus is typically not difficult to treat, so there should be an
improvement within 2 days. Bacterial infections may take longer, and
anti-fungal may or may not be effective (some sulphur based anti-fungals are
good for treating some bacterias).

Malachite green is a carrier dye often used with formalin-based products to
treat external parasites. It will make your water green, though most
anti-fungals I've seen tend to make your water a lovely shade of fluorescent
yellow ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

NetMax wrote:

> All this advice is circumstantial. Fish bring all sorts of diseases with
> them, either dormant or even just as carriers. I usually hold my breath (in
> a manner of speaking) for about 3 months. In that time, most of what they
> bring will manifest itself. The most experienced hobbyists can find
> themselves in your situation.
>
> Once you are past this 3 month threshold, and you have a good maintenance
> plan in place, you begin wondering why you ever thought of fish as fragile
> ;~). hth

Yes, indeed. It does help to use medicated food like TetraMedica for the
first week, to limit the chances of opportunistic bacteria. But that
isn't a cure-all either, you'd have to control the handling of the
fishes in the entire supply chain.

[IDzine01]

Flavobacterium columnare (flexibacter) is common too. It looks like a
fungus but is bacterial so Malachite Green won't help. In that case you
would need an antibiotic. It can be hard to tell the difference without
a microscope but true fungus is more common in cooler water while flex
is more common in warmer water. True fungus will often grow over an
open wound or sore too.

Either way, I would only treat the sick fish in a hospital tank. Both
the anti-fungal meds and the antibiotics and be pretty harsh and can
stress healthy fish.

[Duane]

This seems to be accurate, the first Angelfish died after 1 day of
treatment with fungus med. and the second Angel is showing more fuzzy
growth. Now also my Dwarf Gouramis are showing up with small spots of
it also. Does anyone know how long I should wait before dosing the
tank with antibiotics (Maracyn) after the last dose of Anti-Fungus.
Its been about 36 hrs, and the bottle of anti fungus says to wait 48
between dosings. With no signs of improvement from that med I really
hope the antibiotics will help my poor fish. Also can anyone tell me
if Maracyn will kill of my good bacteria in my tank. Thanks for all
your help.


On 1 Feb 2006 10:05:37 -0800, "IDzine01" >
wrote:

>Flavobacterium columnare (flexibacter) is common too. It looks like a
>fungus but is bacterial so Malachite Green won't help. In that case you
>would need an antibiotic. It can be hard to tell the difference without
>a microscope but true fungus is more common in cooler water while flex
>is more common in warmer water. True fungus will often grow over an
>open wound or sore too.
>
>Either way, I would only treat the sick fish in a hospital tank. Both
>the anti-fungal meds and the antibiotics and be pretty harsh and can
>stress healthy fish.

Duane Wible

[Richard Sexton]

>>Flavobacterium columnare (flexibacter) is common too. It looks like a
>>fungus but is bacterial so Malachite Green won't help. In that case you
>>would need an antibiotic. It can be hard to tell the difference without
>>a microscope but true fungus is more common in cooler water while flex
>>is more common in warmer water. True fungus will often grow over an
>>open wound or sore too.
>>
>>Either way, I would only treat the sick fish in a hospital tank. Both
>>the anti-fungal meds and the antibiotics and be pretty harsh and can
>>stress healthy fish.
>
>This seems to be accurate, the first Angelfish died after 1 day of
>treatment with fungus med. and the second Angel is showing more fuzzy
>growth. Now also my Dwarf Gouramis are showing up with small spots of
>it also. Does anyone know how long I should wait before dosing the
>tank with antibiotics (Maracyn) after the last dose of Anti-Fungus.
>Its been about 36 hrs, and the bottle of anti fungus says to wait 48
>between dosings. With no signs of improvement from that med I really
>hope the antibiotics will help my poor fish. Also can anyone tell me
>if Maracyn will kill of my good bacteria in my tank. Thanks for all
>your help.

Arrg. yes, maracyn will kill all bacteria in your tank. YOU NEVER
DOSE A TANK WITH ANTIBIOTICS. In fact, you're MUCH better off NEVER
using antibiotics. (1)

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/
http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/
http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/alternatives/

Chances are slim to none your fish have "flex". (2) Chnage 80% of the
water daily and dose with salt 2 teaspoons per gallon and they'll
be fine.

The poeple I know that raise (and breed!) Altums change half the
water daily or have them on continuous system. Angels are one of
the toughest fish to keep these days.

Get a flashlight and aim it at the gouramis. I bet you see teeny
tiny little yellow dots like a dusting of light sand. That's
Oodinium or "velvet". Acriflavine is what you want for this,
in a seperate tank. Remove the fish to another container, treat
for 3 weeks. By then the bugs WILL have died out in your tank
having no host to live on and you can safely put your cured fish
back in there.

Refs:
(1) Handbook of Fish Diseases, TFH press
(2) James Langhammer, pers comms.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>Flavobacterium columnare (flexibacter) is common too. It looks like a
>>>fungus but is bacterial so Malachite Green won't help. In that case you
>>>would need an antibiotic. It can be hard to tell the difference without
>>>a microscope but true fungus is more common in cooler water while flex
>>>is more common in warmer water. True fungus will often grow over an
>>>open wound or sore too.
>>>
>>>Either way, I would only treat the sick fish in a hospital tank. Both
>>>the anti-fungal meds and the antibiotics and be pretty harsh and can
>>>stress healthy fish.
>>
>>This seems to be accurate, the first Angelfish died after 1 day of
>>treatment with fungus med. and the second Angel is showing more fuzzy
>>growth. Now also my Dwarf Gouramis are showing up with small spots of
>>it also. Does anyone know how long I should wait before dosing the
>>tank with antibiotics (Maracyn) after the last dose of Anti-Fungus.
>>Its been about 36 hrs, and the bottle of anti fungus says to wait 48
>>between dosings. With no signs of improvement from that med I really
>>hope the antibiotics will help my poor fish. Also can anyone tell me
>>if Maracyn will kill of my good bacteria in my tank. Thanks for all
>>your help.
>
>
> Arrg. yes, maracyn will kill all bacteria in your tank. YOU NEVER
> DOSE A TANK WITH ANTIBIOTICS. In fact, you're MUCH better off NEVER
> using antibiotics. (1)
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/alternatives/
>
> Chances are slim to none your fish have "flex". (2) Chnage 80% of the
> water daily and dose with salt 2 teaspoons per gallon and they'll
> be fine.
>
> The poeple I know that raise (and breed!) Altums change half the
> water daily or have them on continuous system. Angels are one of
> the toughest fish to keep these days.
>
> Get a flashlight and aim it at the gouramis. I bet you see teeny
> tiny little yellow dots like a dusting of light sand. That's
> Oodinium or "velvet". Acriflavine is what you want for this,
> in a seperate tank. Remove the fish to another container, treat
> for 3 weeks. By then the bugs WILL have died out in your tank
> having no host to live on and you can safely put your cured fish
> back in there.
>
> Refs:
> (1) Handbook of Fish Diseases, TFH press
> (2) James Langhammer, pers comms.
>

Flavobacterium IS rather common. If the infection is starting at the
mouth or around the base of the dorsal fin, it's almost certainly
Flavobacterium and you're in for a rough ride. Unlike true fungus, the
stuff is usually both contagious and drug resistant. Salt and
acriflavine is also useful for Flavobacterium if you catch it early
enough. Dont' mix acriflavine and live plants. (Don't ask me how I
know.)

[Richard Sexton]

>Flavobacterium IS rather common.

You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
guessing based on the symptoms?

You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
Aquarist.

As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
dangerous mess.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>Flavobacterium IS rather common.
>
>
> You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
> guessing based on the symptoms?
>
> You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
> Aquarist.
>
> As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
> wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
> dangerous mess.

Guessing based on symptoms, as are you. I've arrived at a different
conclusion. Neither of us has access to a scraping from these fish.
OP is describing rapidly spreading whitish patches and fuzz, a high
rate of contagion, and both internal and external infections. An
antifungal should have slowed fungus secondary to velet and kept it
from jumping to other fish.

Agreed that aquarists tend to overmedicate.

Check out http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm. The author,
Dr. Barb, is an MD who has decided to specialize in fish health as well
as human.

I will have to pick up a copy of this month's TFH.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Altum > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>Flavobacterium IS rather common.
>>
>>
>> You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
>> guessing based on the symptoms?
>>
>> You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
>> Aquarist.
>>
>> As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
>> wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
>> dangerous mess.
>
>Guessing based on symptoms, as are you. I've arrived at a different
>conclusion. Neither of us has access to a scraping from these fish.
>OP is describing rapidly spreading whitish patches and fuzz, a high
>rate of contagion, and both internal and external infections. An
>antifungal should have slowed fungus secondary to velet and kept it
>from jumping to other fish.
>
>Agreed that aquarists tend to overmedicate.
>
>Check out http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm. The author,
>Dr. Barb, is an MD who has decided to specialize in fish health as well
>as human.

I dunno. It makes me a bit nervous that her page describes treatments
different than the references she cites which are certainly more
authoritative. Plus the temptation is so great to say "Oh! flex"
and dump in antibiotics to cure it. Real columnaris is difficult
to cure - the treatment is long. The chronic form that is, the
acute form will wipe out 100% of the fish in 3 days.

It's cause sby high ammonia, low oxygen, dirty water. Acriflavine
would be the drug of choice in everyody's opinion except the above
mentioned page who says it "may" work. Bah.

The Platy on the cover of Handbook of Fish Diseases has columnaris. Looking
at the book is free in a store. :-)

As with all fish diseases, salt and MASSIVE water changes will probably
do more good than anything that comes in a gelcap.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> Altum > wrote:
>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>>Flavobacterium IS rather common.
>>>
>>>
>>> You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
>>> guessing based on the symptoms?
>>>
>>> You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
>>> Aquarist.
>>>
>>> As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
>>> wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
>>> dangerous mess.
>>
>>Guessing based on symptoms, as are you. I've arrived at a different
>>conclusion. Neither of us has access to a scraping from these fish.
>>OP is describing rapidly spreading whitish patches and fuzz, a high
>>rate of contagion, and both internal and external infections. An
>>antifungal should have slowed fungus secondary to velet and kept it
>>from jumping to other fish.
>>
>>Agreed that aquarists tend to overmedicate.
>>
>>Check out http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm. The author,
>>Dr. Barb, is an MD who has decided to specialize in fish health as well
>>as human.
>
> I dunno. It makes me a bit nervous that her page describes treatments
> different than the references she cites which are certainly more
> authoritative. Plus the temptation is so great to say "Oh! flex"
> and dump in antibiotics to cure it. Real columnaris is difficult
> to cure - the treatment is long. The chronic form that is, the
> acute form will wipe out 100% of the fish in 3 days.
>
> It's cause sby high ammonia, low oxygen, dirty water. Acriflavine
> would be the drug of choice in everyody's opinion except the above
> mentioned page who says it "may" work. Bah.
>
> The Platy on the cover of Handbook of Fish Diseases has columnaris.
> Looking
> at the book is free in a store. :-)
>
> As with all fish diseases, salt and MASSIVE water changes will probably
> do more good than anything that comes in a gelcap.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org


Regarding massive freshwater changes for disease treatments (which I
agree with), maybe there is a need for a real fish hospital (recovery
tank). Think of an 'O' shaped aquarium (top view), with 6 chamber (like
a pie chart). Install fish i) in one small section (1g) with egg-crate
sides. Water would continuously be pumped around to the other chambers,
which would be ii) bio-wheel iii) UV stage, iv) plant scrubbers
(something like Hornwort under high light), v)carbon/zeolite stage (could
have water monitoring and meds added here too) and then vi) diatomaceous
filtration.

I wonder if that would work? My sequence and stages would probably need
a 'bit' of fine-tuning (complete redesign? ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>Regarding massive freshwater changes for disease treatments (which I
>agree with), maybe there is a need for a real fish hospital (recovery
>tank). Think of an 'O' shaped aquarium (top view), with 6 chamber (like
>a pie chart). Install fish i) in one small section (1g) with egg-crate
>sides. Water would continuously be pumped around to the other chambers,
>which would be ii) bio-wheel iii) UV stage, iv) plant scrubbers
>(something like Hornwort under high light), v)carbon/zeolite stage (could
>have water monitoring and meds added here too) and then vi) diatomaceous
>filtration.
>
>I wonder if that would work? My sequence and stages would probably need
>a 'bit' of fine-tuning (complete redesign? ;~).

I forgot where, but I read recently that massive waer changes by themselves
(like 4 80%-90% a day) will cure almost anything. It by by a fish pathologist.

(Salt was the other thing he mentioned would cure almost anything)

Water changes by themselves are cited in Untergasser's book as one of about 5
treatments for ick.

The diatom filter alone will cure ick, or any pathogen that's bigger than
1 micron and has a free swimming stage.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[IDzine01]

While I applaud your efforts to treat fish without the use of
antibiotics I think there are times when they are useful. Flex is very
common and I have cured what I believe to be flex several times using a
combination of Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. Curing it is not difficult and
is more frequently successful then not. Allowing flex to go untreated
is nearly always fatal. (Ask me how I know)

Frequent water changes are important to fix whatever was stressing the
fish but that alone won't cure them. Ultimately it comes down to their
immune systems and a boost from the antibiotics. Using them responsably
is the key.

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
IDzine01 > wrote:
>While I applaud your efforts to treat fish without the use of
>antibiotics I think there are times when they are useful. Flex is very
>common and I have cured what I believe to be flex several times using a
>combination of Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. Curing it is not difficult and
>is more frequently successful then not. Allowing flex to go untreated
>is nearly always fatal. (Ask me how I know)

Maracyn is ertythromyacin and affects gram positive bacteria. M2
is neomyacin and affects gram negative bacteria. Untergasser
states the only treatments are acriflavine and tetracycline which
is a gram negative specific antbiotic.

In theory the maracyn does nothing. The M2 is doing all the work.

But, dammit Jim, I'm a computer programmr not a doctor. Take this
all with a grain of salt (per gallon).


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[IDzine01]

The active ingredient in M2 is Minocycline. Is that the same as
Neomyacyn?

Don't sweat it. I'm not a doctor either. For some reason I, like you,
enjoy reading about this stuff. It's geeky, I know.

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
IDzine01 > wrote:
>The active ingredient in M2 is Minocycline. Is that the same as
>Neomyacyn?

Nope. Huh. Either they changed it or I just plain got it wrong. I think th
last time I had any of that stuff was about 1978.

I won't use antibiotics any more, instead there are a bunch of substitutes:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article om>,
> IDzine01 > wrote:
>>The active ingredient in M2 is Minocycline. Is that the same as
>>Neomyacyn?
>
> Nope. Huh. Either they changed it or I just plain got it wrong. I think
> th
> last time I had any of that stuff was about 1978.
>
> I won't use antibiotics any more, instead there are a bunch of
> substitutes:
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org


FYI, euthromycine, although it is gram positive, it will work to an
extent on gram negative bacteria. When I enquired about this, I was told
that the definition (gram positive and gram negative) was not 100%
selective. Wide spectrum A/B is just that, and gram positive A/B is
*mostly* gram positive effective.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>
>FYI, euthromycine, although it is gram positive, it will work to an
>extent on gram negative bacteria. When I enquired about this, I was told
>that the definition (gram positive and gram negative) was not 100%
>selective. Wide spectrum A/B is just that, and gram positive A/B is
>*mostly* gram positive effective.

Fair enough. "gram" is a stain; soe bacteria are stained by it some aren't;
I alwsys thought that was a kinda broad generalization.

I still won't use antibiotics though :-

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Altum]

> Fair enough. "gram" is a stain; soe bacteria are stained by it some aren't;
> I alwsys thought that was a kinda broad generalization.

Gram staining not a broad generalization at all. The staining is very
specific to bacteria with a thick aminoglycoside cell wall. It is easy
to perform and very reproducible, which is why the method is still
extensively used. Antibiotics like penicillin inhibit synthesis of
this wall and cause *only* gram positive bacteria to lyse. The cell
wall also changes the permability of many antibiotics. The label "gram
negative" does encompass a very wide variety of organisms, and knowing
that an organism is gram negative doesn't tell you much.

[NetMax]

"Altum" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Fair enough. "gram" is a stain; soe bacteria are stained by it some
>> aren't;
>> I alwsys thought that was a kinda broad generalization.
>
> Gram staining not a broad generalization at all. The staining is very
> specific to bacteria with a thick aminoglycoside cell wall. It is easy
> to perform and very reproducible, which is why the method is still
> extensively used. Antibiotics like penicillin inhibit synthesis of
> this wall and cause *only* gram positive bacteria to lyse. The cell
> wall also changes the permability of many antibiotics. The label "gram
> negative" does encompass a very wide variety of organisms, and knowing
> that an organism is gram negative doesn't tell you much.


Does that mean that it's not enough to know that the problem bacteria is
gram negative, but we need to match antibiotic types to it as well?

I was ok with learning some chemistry, behavioural psychology, & various
engineering bits on heaters, filters and lights, but I think I'll draw
the line at matching antibiotics to culture samples ;~).

You hear that fish? Stay healthy!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>Does that mean that it's not enough to know that the problem bacteria is
>gram negative, but we need to match antibiotic types to it as well?

Yes and it's worse than that. Whereas you can find it documented what
antibiotic touse against what bacterial pathogen you must first do
a test to see if it is resistant against the antibiotic you plan on
using. That is, does the sugested antibiotic *still* work ?

The last thing we need is antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria.

Mycobacteria is present in virtually all wild water and in all wild fish.
Usually they're healthy enough to just live with it. Sometimes not...

When/if they show symptoms, we call this fish TB. It is in the same
genus as human TB. There is no cure in fish[1], and it's protracted
in humans.

If *CAN* infect humans, the treatment is both expensive and painfull
and mycobacteriosis has claimed the life of at least one aquarist so far.

"Not only are antibiotics dangerous to our future health if we create
``super-bugs'' by careless use but misdiagnosis may cause us to kill
fish by treatments that have no hope of working."

- James Langhammer,
past Curator of Fishes at the Belle Isle Aquarium in Detroit.


"The greatest possibility of evil in self-medication is the use of
too-small doses, so that instead of clearing up infection the microbes
are educated to resist penicillin..."

- Sir Alexander Fleming,
Discoverer of penicillin, interview with the New York Times in 1945

[1] Scheel found it to only be a problem in soft acid water, and
that fish raisedin hard alkaline water did not suffer the problem,
but fish from soft acid water would not sexually ripen in hard
water. His attitude (with all the wild killies he caught, back
in the 60s) was to raise them in hard water then put them in soft
acid water long enough to let them ripen and breed and eventually
he'd have myco-free fish.

Once more with feeling:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Does that mean that it's not enough to know that the problem bacteria
> >is
>>gram negative, but we need to match antibiotic types to it as well?
>
> Yes and it's worse than that. Whereas you can find it documented what
> antibiotic touse against what bacterial pathogen you must first do
> a test to see if it is resistant against the antibiotic you plan on
> using. That is, does the sugested antibiotic *still* work ?
>
> The last thing we need is antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria.
>
> Mycobacteria is present in virtually all wild water and in all wild
> fish.
> Usually they're healthy enough to just live with it. Sometimes not...
>
> When/if they show symptoms, we call this fish TB. It is in the same
> genus as human TB. There is no cure in fish[1], and it's protracted
> in humans.
>
> If *CAN* infect humans, the treatment is both expensive and painfull
> and mycobacteriosis has claimed the life of at least one aquarist so
> far.
>
> "Not only are antibiotics dangerous to our future health if we create
> ``super-bugs'' by careless use but misdiagnosis may cause us to kill
> fish by treatments that have no hope of working."
>
> - James Langhammer,
> past Curator of Fishes at the Belle Isle Aquarium in Detroit.
>
>
> "The greatest possibility of evil in self-medication is the use of
> too-small doses, so that instead of clearing up infection the microbes
> are educated to resist penicillin..."
>
> - Sir Alexander Fleming,
> Discoverer of penicillin, interview with the New York Times in 1945
>
> [1] Scheel found it to only be a problem in soft acid water, and
> that fish raisedin hard alkaline water did not suffer the problem,
> but fish from soft acid water would not sexually ripen in hard
> water. His attitude (with all the wild killies he caught, back
> in the 60s) was to raise them in hard water then put them in soft
> acid water long enough to let them ripen and breed and eventually
> he'd have myco-free fish.
>
> Once more with feeling:
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/


I'm familiar with piscine TB. Any of my staff who cut themselves were
taken off gravel-vacuum duty and sent to stock shelves. When we didn't
have any choice, I had a waterproof tape which worked very well (hospital
grade, to keep infections out of open wounds while showering). I haven't
used A/B in a home tank for as long as I can remember, but the situation
was very different in the trade : (
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[IDzine01]

I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
stress.

Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
gram scale and creating stock solutions.

There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.

[Mr. Gardener]

On 9 Feb 2006 08:42:40 -0800, "IDzine01" >
wrote:

>I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
>aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
>medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
>fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
>medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
>stress.
>
>Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
>seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
>effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
>an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
>example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
>basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
>gram scale and creating stock solutions.
>
>There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.

Two new products I've discovered since getting back into the hobby are
Melafix and Pimafix. From some of the postings here, it appears that
some are using these solutions as a general preventative agent, adding
when starting new tanks, doing water changes, introducing new fish.
What's the scoop on these products?

Mr Gardener

[NetMax]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
> aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
> medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
> fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
> medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
> stress.
>
> Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
> seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
> effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
> an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
> example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
> basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
> gram scale and creating stock solutions.
>
> There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.
>

The right balance should (I think) include medicated foods, especially for
internal diseases. This allows much smaller doses, targeted at the problem,
rather than inefficiently broadcasting the antibiotics throughout the water
column, affecting every organism and putting the biological filtration at
risk.

In regards to mass dosing, I don't know which is worse, the farming of food
fish affecting our ecosystem, or the recreational fish-farming industry
(tropical fish), as both have a huge potential for disasters. My money is
on the off-coast food-fish farming being the sleeping giant (disguised by
the huge water volumes involved), but the hormone/antibiotic use in the
trade is also *very* scary. Peasant farmers in Asia-Pacific are not my idea
of responsible environmentalists carefully following product directions ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[IDzine01]

Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
parasites.

Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
(ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
dunno.

In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
may work well too.

The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
environment.

[NetMax]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
> main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
> to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
> minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
> appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
> parasites.
>
> Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
> (ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
> as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
> specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
> dunno.
>
> In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
> infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
> speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
> ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
> has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
> may work well too.
>
> The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
> environment.


I've had limited success with MelaFix (after experimenting to find out what,
if anything it was useful for). I had two Neon tetra tanks (200 to 700
Neons) and I found that my success rate with treating them conventionally
was very patchy, as they were in such fragile condition. Whenever I
received new fish with any external symptoms (ie: ammonia burn at the ends
of the fins, etc) I would dose with MelaFix (every 2nd day) for a couple of
weeks (the water change system diluted it fairly quickly). The mortality
rate was significantly reduced in this particular application, but I don't
know if I would recommend the product (my application was very specific).
ymmv

I know where MelaFix should NOT be used. We had an indoor 800g pond with a
waterfall in the store. I added a half-dosage of MelaFix and the pond
foamed up almost as bad as when my kids tried bubble bath in the Jacuzzi :oO
!!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[IDzine01]

I couldn't agree more... on both paragraphs.

[Gill Passman]

IDzine01 wrote:
> Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
> main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
> to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
> minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
> appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
> parasites.
>
> Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
> (ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
> as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
> specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
> dunno.
>
> In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
> infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
> speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
> ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
> has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
> may work well too.
>
> The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
> environment.
>

Not entirely on topic but just a comment on Tea Tree Oil and parasites -
there was also something in PFK about this in the last few months as
well about them being beneficial for the treatment of parasites....Tea
Tree Oil is now the recommended treatment for head lice in children- now
if they don't qualify as parasites I don't know what does...(got school
aged kids so a topic I have to keep up on).

Now most of us don't use these products with Tea Tree Oil to treat
parasites on our fish but from what I've heard they work a treat on head
lice...so now I'm just starting to wonder....

Gill

Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:04:39 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>IDzine01 wrote:
>> Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
>> main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
>> to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
>> minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
>> appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
>> parasites.
>>
>> Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
>> (ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
>> as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
>> specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
>> dunno.
>>
>> In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
>> infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
>> speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
>> ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
>> has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
>> may work well too.
>>
>> The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
>> environment.
>>
>
>Not entirely on topic but just a comment on Tea Tree Oil and parasites -
>there was also something in PFK about this in the last few months as
>well about them being beneficial for the treatment of parasites....Tea
>Tree Oil is now the recommended treatment for head lice in children- now
>if they don't qualify as parasites I don't know what does...(got school
>aged kids so a topic I have to keep up on).
>
>Now most of us don't use these products with Tea Tree Oil to treat
>parasites on our fish but from what I've heard they work a treat on head
>lice...so now I'm just starting to wonder....
>
>Gill
>
>Gill

I've read recently that there is a search on for safer methods of
managing head lice and scabies, someone has finally begun reading the
labels on the standard delousing products and have become alarmed at
the very serious potential for dangerous effects from their repeated
use. The Tea Tree Oil research sounds a little like the introduction
of Neem oil for garden pests in recent years. It was initially
promoted for some very specific usages, like bugs on cabbage crops,
but research began coming in showing it to be effective on more and
more seemingly unrelated maladies, from the initial use against a few
bugs to proving an effective anti fungal agent on beans and many other
crops. Initially not approved for edible crops, later found to be safe
up until a few days before harvest. So maybe this is what we are
seeing with the Tea Tree Oil. I think I'll do some sniffing around on
the web and see what turns up. Besides the products' own web sites, of
course. Any links to science/research papers are welcome.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:18:08 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
>> aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
>> medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
>> fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
>> medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
>> stress.
>>
Add fish farming to that list - an ever increasing source for the fish
we put on our tables is coming from farming operations, not just in
economically challenged nations, but all along the Atlantic coast
right here in North America. The heavy use of prophylactic antibiotics
and steroids rivals that used in the chicken and red meat industries.
And the pollution from these intensive operations every time the
farming pool is opened to the ocean is phenomenal.

>> Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
>> seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
>> effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
>> an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
>> example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
>> basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
>> gram scale and creating stock solutions.
>>
>> There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.
>>
>
>The right balance should (I think) include medicated foods, especially for
>internal diseases. This allows much smaller doses, targeted at the problem,
>rather than inefficiently broadcasting the antibiotics throughout the water
>column, affecting every organism and putting the biological filtration at
>risk.

Yes, I agree that medicated foods can be a whole lot safer that dosing
the entire aquarium. We may think that what we pour into our aquarium
water will not have an effect on the ever increasing resistance to
antibiotics in the human and animal world, but you don't have to
swallow an antibiotic for it to enter your body. The near invisible
aerosal created by a splash of aquarium water or even the natural
evaporation contain traces of the antibiotic, providing bacteria all
around us with a weak dose of the very medicine it needs to increase
its resistance to the next generation of antibiotics, and the next.
Though we may think of our aquariums as closed systems, they are, in
fact, connected to the room air around them, and what's in the water
column becomes part of our own environment.

Anyhow, it's good to learn that questions like these are being raised
in the fish culture world, and good to see that substances like Tea
Tree Oil are being investigated as one more little tool in the battle
between humankind and bacteriakind.

Mr Gardener




>In regards to mass dosing, I don't know which is worse, the farming of food
>fish affecting our ecosystem, or the recreational fish-farming industry
>(tropical fish), as both have a huge potential for disasters. My money is
>on the off-coast food-fish farming being the sleeping giant (disguised by
>the huge water volumes involved), but the hormone/antibiotic use in the
>trade is also *very* scary. Peasant farmers in Asia-Pacific are not my idea
>of responsible environmentalists carefully following product directions ;~).

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:04:39 +0000, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>IDzine01 wrote:
>>
>>>Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
>>>main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
>>>to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
>>>minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
>>>appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
>>>parasites.
>>>
>>>Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
>>>(ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
>>>as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
>>>specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
>>>dunno.
>>>
>>>In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
>>>infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
>>>speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
>>>ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
>>>has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
>>>may work well too.
>>>
>>>The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
>>>environment.
>>>
>>
>>Not entirely on topic but just a comment on Tea Tree Oil and parasites -
>>there was also something in PFK about this in the last few months as
>>well about them being beneficial for the treatment of parasites....Tea
>>Tree Oil is now the recommended treatment for head lice in children- now
>>if they don't qualify as parasites I don't know what does...(got school
>>aged kids so a topic I have to keep up on).
>>
>>Now most of us don't use these products with Tea Tree Oil to treat
>>parasites on our fish but from what I've heard they work a treat on head
>>lice...so now I'm just starting to wonder....
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> I've read recently that there is a search on for safer methods of
> managing head lice and scabies, someone has finally begun reading the
> labels on the standard delousing products and have become alarmed at
> the very serious potential for dangerous effects from their repeated
> use. The Tea Tree Oil research sounds a little like the introduction
> of Neem oil for garden pests in recent years. It was initially
> promoted for some very specific usages, like bugs on cabbage crops,
> but research began coming in showing it to be effective on more and
> more seemingly unrelated maladies, from the initial use against a few
> bugs to proving an effective anti fungal agent on beans and many other
> crops. Initially not approved for edible crops, later found to be safe
> up until a few days before harvest. So maybe this is what we are
> seeing with the Tea Tree Oil. I think I'll do some sniffing around on
> the web and see what turns up. Besides the products' own web sites, of
> course. Any links to science/research papers are welcome.

Couldn't find the mag with the article so did a search on PFK's
website...the link is:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=735

The article does not discuss the efficaciousness of tea tree oil with
ich but with skin flukes....I'm just speculating on any other possible
benefits...based on what I've read/heard of the benefits on human
parasites...

Now looking at recent experience that I have had...I've lost a lot of
Clown Loaches to Ich over the last few months - the LFS's involved have
addmitted to bad stock and have given refunds...but the Ich that these
fish had did not respond to conventional treatment (the suspicion is
that they are becoming resistant) - and believe me I did everything by
the book in terms of treatment that has also worked for me in the past...

We have two Yoyo loaches in a different tank...they started flashing but
I wasn't sure quite what was wrong (although I suspected Ich)...I added
some Melafix as a palative and they no longer flash and never developed
any problem....

I'm not convinced, but I think that there might be some mileage in
this...However, these are just my musings and thoughts and I would not
recommend right now that anyone who has an Ich problem goes down any
other than the conventional route...

Tea Tree Oil is certainly the "professional" recommended route to go
with human parasites such as lice over here right now and I've seen
nothing to dispute this...and it has been more successful than the more
noxious treatments from what I've heard/read.

So upshot is, I don't know how helpful it would be in treating parasites
with fish but it is food for thought though...

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

>Couldn't find the mag with the article so did a search on PFK's
>website...the link is:-
>
>http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=735
>
>The article does not discuss the efficaciousness of tea tree oil with
>ich but with skin flukes....I'm just speculating on any other possible
>benefits...based on what I've read/heard of the benefits on human
>parasites...
>
>Now looking at recent experience that I have had...I've lost a lot of
>Clown Loaches to Ich over the last few months - the LFS's involved have
>addmitted to bad stock and have given refunds...but the Ich that these
>fish had did not respond to conventional treatment (the suspicion is
>that they are becoming resistant) - and believe me I did everything by
>the book in terms of treatment that has also worked for me in the past...

There was an article in TFH a while back about an apparant resistant
form of Ick that responded per Untergassers technique of changing the
watr so frequently - and I mean all of it, ie putthe fish a new
tank of clean water - that it cured them.

Ick works like this, a parasite attaches to the fish, sucks on it
and becomes 1000 spores. They slough off, become free swimming then
look for a fish to infect.

The bugs are on susceptible to medication when free swimming.

So, if you disrupt the life cycle by removing the fish from
bug soup (or you filter them out with a diatom filter running
continuously) then the infestation will gradually subside.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>>The right balance should (I think) include medicated foods, especially for
>>internal diseases. This allows much smaller doses, targeted at the problem,
>>rather than inefficiently broadcasting the antibiotics throughout the water
>>column, affecting every organism and putting the biological filtration at
>>risk.
>
>Yes, I agree that medicated foods can be a whole lot safer that dosing
>the entire aquarium. We may think that what we pour into our aquarium
>water will not have an effect on the ever increasing resistance to
>antibiotics in the human and animal world, but you don't have to
>swallow an antibiotic for it to enter your body. The near invisible
>aerosal created by a splash of aquarium water or even the natural
>evaporation contain traces of the antibiotic, providing bacteria all
>around us with a weak dose of the very medicine it needs to increase
>its resistance to the next generation of antibiotics, and the next.
>Though we may think of our aquariums as closed systems, they are, in
>fact, connected to the room air around them, and what's in the water
>column becomes part of our own environment.

I can't agree guys. You're dosing a fish with an antibiotic that you have no
idea is effective against the pathogen you're trying to kill. If by chance
if does kill it you need a full course of treatment or else it becomes
resistant.

I side with the Germans on this one: a vet must do a tolerance test
to determine what the pathogen is susceptible to and then the correct
dose of the correct antibiotic must be administered to the affected fish
in a bare tank.

This is expesnive and ony warrent4ed for rare or expensive

Underdosing potentially the wrong antibiotic is harmful.

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[Gill Passman]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>The right balance should (I think) include medicated foods, especially for
>>>internal diseases. This allows much smaller doses, targeted at the problem,
>>>rather than inefficiently broadcasting the antibiotics throughout the water
>>>column, affecting every organism and putting the biological filtration at
>>>risk.
>>
>>Yes, I agree that medicated foods can be a whole lot safer that dosing
>>the entire aquarium. We may think that what we pour into our aquarium
>>water will not have an effect on the ever increasing resistance to
>>antibiotics in the human and animal world, but you don't have to
>>swallow an antibiotic for it to enter your body. The near invisible
>>aerosal created by a splash of aquarium water or even the natural
>>evaporation contain traces of the antibiotic, providing bacteria all
>>around us with a weak dose of the very medicine it needs to increase
>>its resistance to the next generation of antibiotics, and the next.
>>Though we may think of our aquariums as closed systems, they are, in
>>fact, connected to the room air around them, and what's in the water
>>column becomes part of our own environment.
>
>
> I can't agree guys. You're dosing a fish with an antibiotic that you have no
> idea is effective against the pathogen you're trying to kill. If by chance
> if does kill it you need a full course of treatment or else it becomes
> resistant.
>
> I side with the Germans on this one: a vet must do a tolerance test
> to determine what the pathogen is susceptible to and then the correct
> dose of the correct antibiotic must be administered to the affected fish
> in a bare tank.
>
> This is expesnive and ony warrent4ed for rare or expensive
>
> Underdosing potentially the wrong antibiotic is harmful.
>

It's not only in Germany that antibiotics are prescription only
drugs...same applies in the UK and for exactly the same arguements that
Richard is using...I am in total agreement with him on the inappropriate
or misuse/overuse of antibiotics.

Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:10:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>>The right balance should (I think) include medicated foods, especially for
>>>internal diseases. This allows much smaller doses, targeted at the problem,
>>>rather than inefficiently broadcasting the antibiotics throughout the water
>>>column, affecting every organism and putting the biological filtration at
>>>risk.
>>
>>Yes, I agree that medicated foods can be a whole lot safer that dosing
>>the entire aquarium. We may think that what we pour into our aquarium
>>water will not have an effect on the ever increasing resistance to
>>antibiotics in the human and animal world, but you don't have to
>>swallow an antibiotic for it to enter your body. The near invisible
>>aerosal created by a splash of aquarium water or even the natural
>>evaporation contain traces of the antibiotic, providing bacteria all
>>around us with a weak dose of the very medicine it needs to increase
>>its resistance to the next generation of antibiotics, and the next.
>>Though we may think of our aquariums as closed systems, they are, in
>>fact, connected to the room air around them, and what's in the water
>>column becomes part of our own environment.
>
>I can't agree guys. You're dosing a fish with an antibiotic that you have no
>idea is effective against the pathogen you're trying to kill. If by chance
>if does kill it you need a full course of treatment or else it becomes
>resistant.
>
>I side with the Germans on this one: a vet must do a tolerance test
>to determine what the pathogen is susceptible to and then the correct
>dose of the correct antibiotic must be administered to the affected fish
>in a bare tank.
>
>This is expesnive and ony warrent4ed for rare or expensive
>
>Underdosing potentially the wrong antibiotic is harmful.

I don't think we're disagreeing here. Netmax suggested that feeding
the medication through food directly to the fish would be more
effective than just filling the aquarium with it, the odds of the fish
receiving a therapeutic dose would be improved. Doing this in a
hospital tank would treat the sick fish only. The German method sounds
wonderful to me, a practice that we on this side of the pond need to
pay attention to, in our treatment of fish, livestock, and humans.
I've never dosed a tank or fish with an antibiotic, my 4 children are
all adults now, I can count on one hand the number of times any of
them have received antibiotics in their combined 100 years or so. In a
perfect world, there would be no antibiotics on the shelves of pet
stores, and no antibacterials in our handsoaps, dishwashing liquids,
"personal cleansing" wipes or anything else beyond dedicated first aid
solutions. But this is not a perfect world. And perhaps discussions
like this own will cause someone to stop and think the next time they
reach for an antibiotic at their fish store.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:05:22 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>Couldn't find the mag with the article so did a search on PFK's
>>website...the link is:-
>>
>>http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=735
>>
>>The article does not discuss the efficaciousness of tea tree oil with
>>ich but with skin flukes....I'm just speculating on any other possible
>>benefits...based on what I've read/heard of the benefits on human
>>parasites...
>>
>>Now looking at recent experience that I have had...I've lost a lot of
>>Clown Loaches to Ich over the last few months - the LFS's involved have
>>addmitted to bad stock and have given refunds...but the Ich that these
>>fish had did not respond to conventional treatment (the suspicion is
>>that they are becoming resistant) - and believe me I did everything by
>>the book in terms of treatment that has also worked for me in the past...
>
>There was an article in TFH a while back about an apparant resistant
>form of Ick that responded per Untergassers technique of changing the
>watr so frequently - and I mean all of it, ie putthe fish a new
>tank of clean water - that it cured them.
>
>Ick works like this, a parasite attaches to the fish, sucks on it
>and becomes 1000 spores. They slough off, become free swimming then
>look for a fish to infect.
>
>The bugs are on susceptible to medication when free swimming.
>
>So, if you disrupt the life cycle by removing the fish from
>bug soup (or you filter them out with a diatom filter running
>continuously) then the infestation will gradually subside.

If I ever buy a diatom filter, that will be the reason. Would a micron
filter be dense enough to trap ich?

Mr Gardener

[Flash Wilson]

On 6 Feb 2006 06:55:23 -0800, IDzine01 > wrote:
>While I applaud your efforts to treat fish without the use of
>antibiotics I think there are times when they are useful.

They aren't available in the UK, and we seem to manage!

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[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>So, if you disrupt the life cycle by removing the fish from
>>bug soup (or you filter them out with a diatom filter running
>>continuously) then the infestation will gradually subside.
>
>If I ever buy a diatom filter, that will be the reason. Would a micron
>filter be dense enough to trap ich?

Yup. They used to advertise it as such. One micron is pretty damn
small, most bacteria are bigger than that (but generally don't
have a free swimming stage as part of their life cycle)


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[Richard Sexton]

>I don't think we're disagreeing here. Netmax suggested that feeding
>the medication through food directly to the fish would be more
>effective than just filling the aquarium with it, the odds of the fish
>receiving a therapeutic dose would be improved.

On the subject of medicated foos, I found this:

Handbook of fish diseases, Pps 120-121. (TFH Press, ISBN 0-86633-703-2)

"Wrong uses of antibiotics have led to resistant pathogens; the fear is that
this resistance can be transferred to mans bacterial pathogens. Expert
opinion varies widely, but antibiotics should be used in aquariums only
in dire emergancies. Sulfonamides and nitrofurans should be tried first.
Antibiotic therapy should be done in bare all glass tanks; the antibiotic
solution must not be allowed in the sewer system. They should not be left in the
treatment tank and heated between 50C and 60C; decomposition should occur
withing two days except for chloramphenicol which can be destroyed in
two hours throught the addition of lye (caustic soda, sodium hydroxide,
NaOH) to raise the pH over 10.

Mixing medications into the food is often recommended; the medication
goes directly to the gut and treatment can be given in a fully set up aquarium.
Putting the medecine into the food of course requires that the fish is
accustomes to the food and is not too sick to eat. This is not intended for
food fish."

Keep in mind too bacterial infections destroy tissus. It is
quite possible you may kill the pathogen but the damage to
internal organs is so great the fish cannot live despite
being bacteria free. (paraphrasing the prevous page).

At least look at the book in a store if you get a chance.




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[IDzine01]

Getting the antibiotic into the food is also better for the fish. The
likelihood for recovery is much better when the medication is digested
rather than absorbed.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:40:53 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>I don't think we're disagreeing here. Netmax suggested that feeding
>>the medication through food directly to the fish would be more
>>effective than just filling the aquarium with it, the odds of the fish
>>receiving a therapeutic dose would be improved.
>
>On the subject of medicated foos, I found this:
>
>Handbook of fish diseases, Pps 120-121. (TFH Press, ISBN 0-86633-703-2)
>
>"Wrong uses of antibiotics have led to resistant pathogens; the fear is that
>this resistance can be transferred to mans bacterial pathogens. Expert
>opinion varies widely, but antibiotics should be used in aquariums only
>in dire emergancies. Sulfonamides and nitrofurans should be tried first.
>Antibiotic therapy should be done in bare all glass tanks; the antibiotic
>solution must not be allowed in the sewer system. They should not be left in the
>treatment tank and heated between 50C and 60C; decomposition should occur
>withing two days except for chloramphenicol which can be destroyed in
>two hours throught the addition of lye (caustic soda, sodium hydroxide,
>NaOH) to raise the pH over 10.
>
>Mixing medications into the food is often recommended; the medication
>goes directly to the gut and treatment can be given in a fully set up aquarium.
>Putting the medecine into the food of course requires that the fish is
>accustomes to the food and is not too sick to eat. This is not intended for
>food fish."
>
>Keep in mind too bacterial infections destroy tissus. It is
>quite possible you may kill the pathogen but the damage to
>internal organs is so great the fish cannot live despite
>being bacteria free. (paraphrasing the prevous page).
>
>At least look at the book in a store if you get a chance.

This raises another question that has been niggling in the back of my
mind since this thread began, what happens to the antibiotic carrying
tank water when the tank is drained, or a partial water change is
performed. Into the sewers, into the river, into the wide open
ecosystem.

[Richard Sexton]

>This raises another question that has been niggling in the back of my
>mind since this thread began, what happens to the antibiotic carrying
>tank water when the tank is drained, or a partial water change is
>performed. Into the sewers, into the river, into the wide open
>ecosystem.

When we moved into this big od house way out in the country 10 years ago
we were assured the septic system was in "good working order". Go it in
writing. It wasn't of course, it was circa 1860, way too small for a
modern house and to ad insult to injury, decrepid.

So the seller had no choice but to pony up $7K for a new one. The simple
act of a dozen lawyers letters over a year took care of that.

We live close enough (50') to a river that under current environmental
laws we are not allowed to have a septic system. Which led to the odd
legal situation that we can have a stinkinging fetid mess potentially
leaching waste into the river but we cannot have a new one that's sanitary.

We paid an engineer to explain this to a judge and we got a variance
and our septic is now "grandfathered". We got a new system.

Now, waste water collects in an 1800 gallon cement tank and waste
water overflows onto a bed, a huge bed, of sand. This has to be above the
high water mark.

Because, this is where human pathogens die. Exposed to air in the
sand bed for three days, they die.

The concern about releasing antibiotics into "the wild" is that they might
come in contact with a human pathogen and give it resistance to that particular
antibiotic. While it's extremely unlikely that particular pathogen might
eventually find it's way into a human again it's not impossible. Somebody
might actually die because of this.

Human civilization has been around for thousands of years, antibiotics, less
than 100. Resistance to antibiotics is a problem in modern day bacteria -
look at "flesh eating" staph.

In north america we have unfettered access to antibiotics through the pet
trade. It would be irresponsible of us as aquarists to contribute to this
problem in any way.


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[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:05:50 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>This raises another question that has been niggling in the back of my
>>mind since this thread began, what happens to the antibiotic carrying
>>tank water when the tank is drained, or a partial water change is
>>performed. Into the sewers, into the river, into the wide open
>>ecosystem.
>
>When we moved into this big od house way out in the country 10 years ago
>we were assured the septic system was in "good working order". Go it in
>writing. It wasn't of course, it was circa 1860, way too small for a
>modern house and to ad insult to injury, decrepid.
>
>So the seller had no choice but to pony up $7K for a new one. The simple
>act of a dozen lawyers letters over a year took care of that.
>
>We live close enough (50') to a river that under current environmental
>laws we are not allowed to have a septic system. Which led to the odd
>legal situation that we can have a stinkinging fetid mess potentially
>leaching waste into the river but we cannot have a new one that's sanitary.
>
>We paid an engineer to explain this to a judge and we got a variance
>and our septic is now "grandfathered". We got a new system.
>
>Now, waste water collects in an 1800 gallon cement tank and waste
>water overflows onto a bed, a huge bed, of sand. This has to be above the
>high water mark.
>
>Because, this is where human pathogens die. Exposed to air in the
>sand bed for three days, they die.
>
>The concern about releasing antibiotics into "the wild" is that they might
>come in contact with a human pathogen and give it resistance to that particular
>antibiotic. While it's extremely unlikely that particular pathogen might
>eventually find it's way into a human again it's not impossible. Somebody
>might actually die because of this.
>
>Human civilization has been around for thousands of years, antibiotics, less
>than 100. Resistance to antibiotics is a problem in modern day bacteria -
>look at "flesh eating" staph.
>
>In north america we have unfettered access to antibiotics through the pet
>trade. It would be irresponsible of us as aquarists to contribute to this
>problem in any way.

I remember the old line "one hundred years from now, what the heck
difference will it make." Well, since I first heard that, everything
has accelerated to the point that what each of us chooses to do today
with our own little micro space may very well make a very big
difference much sooner than "one hundred years from now."

We may be wandering a bit off topic here, but since we've gotten this
far . . . as part of my catch up with what's new in the hobby, I've
been browsing through recent issues of the Big 3 aquarium magazines
and am pleased to note that every copy has devoted at least some
space, a regular column or a passing nod, to our responsibility to the
environment as aquarists.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Richard Sexton wrote:


> >If I ever buy a diatom filter, that will be the reason. Would a micron
> >filter be dense enough to trap ich?
>
> Yup. They used to advertise it as such. One micron is pretty damn
> small, most bacteria are bigger than that (but generally don't
> have a free swimming stage as part of their life cycle)

For filtering bacteria you need a sub-micron filter (0.45 or even 0.22
um pore size). However Ich is a cilliate (protozoon), and 1 um should be
fine.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Mr. Gardener wrote:

> This raises another question that has been niggling in the back of my
> mind since this thread began, what happens to the antibiotic carrying
> tank water when the tank is drained, or a partial water change is
> performed. Into the sewers, into the river, into the wide open
> ecosystem.

Many antibiotics contain reactive groups that are rapidely destroyed in
the environment. A typical example are the beta-lactams (of which
penicillin is the most prominent member). The beta-lactam group is a
4-membered ring system, which is unstable. In a 4-membered ring the bond
angle is of course 90 degrees, this is considerably different from the
preferred bond angle of 109 degrees (tetrahedral angle). You can imagine
a bond between atoms as an elastic stick, which is strongly bend in the
lactam ring. Given half the chance such a stick will flip back into a
straight position.

In fact, this is how beta-lactams work: by opening in the substrate
binding site of a bacterial enzyme and chemically modifying the protein,
inactivating it in the process. In a sewage system, it would soon find
some other molecule to react with. Once the ring is open, the antibiotic
is simply food for degrading bacteria.

Resistance develops not in bacteria exposed to antibiotics in sewage,
but in patients which are treated with a dose that is too low or for too
short a time. Think of a population of billions of bacteria in a
patient, all with slightly different genetic makeup. If you treat with
antibiotic, the most sensitive bacteria will die first, others will
survive longer. If the dose is too low to kill all bacteria, or if
treatment is abandoned before all bacteria are dead, the most resistant
ones will survive and the disease will reappear. In a few cycles like
that you can select a strain of bacteria which survive antibiotic
concentrations high enough to kill the patient! Now imagine antibiotics
to be routinely fed to live stock to prevent, rather than cure, disease
and you can easily imagine how this adds to the resistance problem.

In a sewage system antibiotics are so diluted that they can not harm
even the most sensitive bacteria, so being resistant does not offer a
selective advantage. Indeed, since such resistance is also costly (if
for example antibiotic-degrading enzymes have to be produced) it may
even be a disadvantage.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:51:14 +0100, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
> wrote:

>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>
>> This raises another question that has been niggling in the back of my
>> mind since this thread began, what happens to the antibiotic carrying
>> tank water when the tank is drained, or a partial water change is
>> performed. Into the sewers, into the river, into the wide open
>> ecosystem.
>
>Many antibiotics contain reactive groups that are rapidely destroyed in
>the environment. A typical example are the beta-lactams (of which
>penicillin is the most prominent member). The beta-lactam group is a
>4-membered ring system, which is unstable. In a 4-membered ring the bond
>angle is of course 90 degrees, this is considerably different from the
>preferred bond angle of 109 degrees (tetrahedral angle). You can imagine
>a bond between atoms as an elastic stick, which is strongly bend in the
>lactam ring. Given half the chance such a stick will flip back into a
>straight position.
>
>In fact, this is how beta-lactams work: by opening in the substrate
>binding site of a bacterial enzyme and chemically modifying the protein,
>inactivating it in the process. In a sewage system, it would soon find
>some other molecule to react with. Once the ring is open, the antibiotic
>is simply food for degrading bacteria.
>
>Resistance develops not in bacteria exposed to antibiotics in sewage,
>but in patients which are treated with a dose that is too low or for too
>short a time. Think of a population of billions of bacteria in a
>patient, all with slightly different genetic makeup. If you treat with
>antibiotic, the most sensitive bacteria will die first, others will
>survive longer. If the dose is too low to kill all bacteria, or if
>treatment is abandoned before all bacteria are dead, the most resistant
>ones will survive and the disease will reappear. In a few cycles like
>that you can select a strain of bacteria which survive antibiotic
>concentrations high enough to kill the patient! Now imagine antibiotics
>to be routinely fed to live stock to prevent, rather than cure, disease
>and you can easily imagine how this adds to the resistance problem.
>
>In a sewage system antibiotics are so diluted that they can not harm
>even the most sensitive bacteria, so being resistant does not offer a
>selective advantage. Indeed, since such resistance is also costly (if
>for example antibiotic-degrading enzymes have to be produced) it may
>even be a disadvantage.

I love it when I get a reply that challenges and educates . . . makes
me think. On first skim, I think Whoa! this is way over my head. Then
I read it again, slowly, and the light begins to come on. I follow the
sewer line of thinking you've presented. I see how it can apply to
both the municipal treatment facility as well as the outback septic or
cesspool. It's the aerosol effect that I am most concerned about. I
have an image stuck in my head that was planted perhaps 15 or 20 years
ago. We've seen it on TV a thousand times. A nurse holds his or her
little bottle of medicine, antibiotics in this case, and injects her
needle into the top, withdraws the medication she needs, withdraws the
needle from the vial, and points the needle and syringe straight up
and depresses the plunger just enough so that a small amount of the
medicine squirts from the needle, into the air. Someone came up with
the suggestion that the minute doses of antibiotics released into the
air might linger long enough for the nurse, or anyone nearby, might
inhale the wisp of aerosol, and over time, as would happen with a
nurse, dozens or hundreds of these accidental inhalations of
antibiotics could actually be harmful for the nurse, in effect, he or
she is self administering frequent low doses of antibiotics. Add to
this the common design of hospital "medication rooms", small rooms
where the door is kept closed, and you add the possibility of every
person walking into that room getting a little mini dose of whatever
was in the air. Studies were done, papers written, and the health care
journals were filled with what-ifs and precautions. Today it is
standard practice for medication handlers to "be careful where you
spray that thing." The image becomes much clearer when I think of a
designated smoking room and all that cigarette smoke being invisible
antibiotics. Bringing this back down to the level of the everyday
living room aquariums and toddlers toddling around . . . there is some
reason for concern and there is probably some material for a science
fiction novel. When choosing to dump medications into our tanks, we
need to stop and think and make sure we know what we are treating and
whether we are using the appropriate product.

-- Mr Gardener

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Dr Engelbert Buxbaum > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>
>> >If I ever buy a diatom filter, that will be the reason. Would a micron
>> >filter be dense enough to trap ich?
>>
>> Yup. They used to advertise it as such. One micron is pretty damn
>> small, most bacteria are bigger than that (but generally don't
>> have a free swimming stage as part of their life cycle)
>
>For filtering bacteria you need a sub-micron filter (0.45 or even 0.22
>um pore size). However Ich is a cilliate (protozoon), and 1 um should be
>fine.

Why is that? Furunculosis is 1.7 - 2 microns. Flexobacteris up to 8 microns.
Mycobacteria is 1-5 microns and so on.


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[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Mr. Gardener wrote:

> points the needle and syringe straight up
> and depresses the plunger just enough so that a small amount of the
> medicine squirts from the needle, into the air. Someone came up with
> the suggestion that the minute doses of antibiotics released into the
> air might linger long enough for the nurse, or anyone nearby, might
> inhale the wisp of aerosol, and over time, as would happen with a
> nurse,

Not much unless she/he is allergic to the stuff (or if she slips in the
puddle on the ground). Otherwise, its to short-lived to accumulate to a
dangerous dose.

> Bringing this back down to the level of the everyday
> living room aquariums and toddlers toddling around . . . there is some
> reason for concern and there is probably some material for a science
> fiction novel.

But probably more for a novel than a scientific paper.

> When choosing to dump medications into our tanks, we
> need to stop and think and make sure we know what we are treating and
> whether we are using the appropriate product.

I agree completely. Wrong medication costs money, doesn't help the fish
and kills filter bacteria: lots of trouble with no gain. Proper
diagnosis is the first step to an effective cure, in animals as much as
in humans.