Things you wish newbies knew. [Archive]

Eric

January 31st 06, 07:19 AM

OK, I will now reveal that I have at one time worked as a fish professional.
I worked for one of the big "evil empire" type stores when I needed an extra
job to cover some expenses. Here are some things I wish people knew about
fish before they ever thought about keeping an aquarium.

1. You cannot buy an aquarium and the fish you want in it the same day. There
were even people who wanted to buy a tank and a clownfish just because they
saw Finding Nemo. Even if you bought live sand and filtered seawater this
would be a long shot for the little nemo's survival.

2. You can't stock a tank to capacity shortly after setting it up. the number
one cause of death is ammonia. Bacteria get rid of ammonia. New tanks don't
have these bacteria, so build up slow. It may take a couple of months.

3. Algae will not kill your fish. Some people panic when they see algae. They
do stupid things as a result.

4. A teardown and rebuild is a good way to kill your fish. If the fish were
happy why do you need to take everything apart? Oh, yeah, algae.

4. It's best to stick to fish that stay under 3 inches in a 10gal. tank

5. You don not *have to* get a CAE or a pl*co in order to "clean the tank".
If you just think they're cool, get one, but they are by no means necessary.
Every fish you add to a tank increases the load on a tank. There is no magic
fish that improves water quality.

6. If you think that AmmoLock, Amquel, or zeolite are a long-term solution to
your overcrowded tank, you're wrong. There are countless oscar abusers who
mistakenly rely on these products.

7. Don't worry so much about your pH. It's high. The water comes from deep
wells that extend into Jurassic seabeds. Your better off just not worrying
about and letting your cardinals die young than adding pH Down or worse to
your tank.

Can anyone else add to this list?

-E

Elaine T

January 31st 06, 10:14 AM

Eric wrote:
>
> OK, I will now reveal that I have at one time worked as a fish professional.
> I worked for one of the big "evil empire" type stores when I needed an extra
> job to cover some expenses. Here are some things I wish people knew about
> fish before they ever thought about keeping an aquarium.
>
> 1. You cannot buy an aquarium and the fish you want in it the same day. There
> were even people who wanted to buy a tank and a clownfish just because they
> saw Finding Nemo. Even if you bought live sand and filtered seawater this
> would be a long shot for the little nemo's survival.
>
> 2. You can't stock a tank to capacity shortly after setting it up. the number
> one cause of death is ammonia. Bacteria get rid of ammonia. New tanks don't
> have these bacteria, so build up slow. It may take a couple of months.
>
> 3. Algae will not kill your fish. Some people panic when they see algae. They
> do stupid things as a result.
>
> 4. A teardown and rebuild is a good way to kill your fish. If the fish were
> happy why do you need to take everything apart? Oh, yeah, algae.
>
> 4. It's best to stick to fish that stay under 3 inches in a 10gal. tank
>
> 5. You don not *have to* get a CAE or a pl*co in order to "clean the tank".
> If you just think they're cool, get one, but they are by no means necessary.
> Every fish you add to a tank increases the load on a tank. There is no magic
> fish that improves water quality.
>
> 6. If you think that AmmoLock, Amquel, or zeolite are a long-term solution to
> your overcrowded tank, you're wrong. There are countless oscar abusers who
> mistakenly rely on these products.
>
> 7. Don't worry so much about your pH. It's high. The water comes from deep
> wells that extend into Jurassic seabeds. Your better off just not worrying
> about and letting your cardinals die young than adding pH Down or worse to
> your tank.
>
> Can anyone else add to this list?
>
> -E
>
Your algae observations were really funny. I *worry* about fishtanks
that have no algae at all! What would the fish graze on when I feed
lightly?

From another fish store refugee...

8. Your new tank will most likely have cloudy water for a while.
Changing the water will only make it worse.

9. No, guppies (mollies, platies, swordtails) don't lay eggs. Where
did the babies go? Well, fish have this rule... If it fits into the
mouth, it's food. Be grateful the babies are gone because livebearers
will breed you out of house and home unchecked.

10. Where did your cute little baby neons go? Didn't you buy an
angelfish last weekend? See number 9. Almost any fish will consider
eating a much smaller tankmate.

11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you change
water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out gradually,
cleaning a third of the tank for the next 3 water changes. Work up to
cleaning the whole gravel bed with every water change.

12. Typical aquaria have strip lights that are wildly inadequate for
live plants. Why? So typical fish-only tanks don't grow too much
algae. Get a glass canopy and a good power compact light fixture if you
really want to grow plants. At a minimum, get a strip with two
fluorescent tubes instead of one.

13. Learn how to recognize ich before it wipes out your tank. If you
can't get to the fish store easily, keep some Quick Cure on hand.

14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
requirements, temperament, compatiblity, and food requirements before
you buy. The fish you buy on impulse and later wish you hadn't will be
the one that only eats live food, is too aggressive to keep with the
rest of your fish, costs a fortune yet hides all the time, or has an
adult size of 20" long.

15. Despite their popularity, tempting colors, and low price,
livebearers are not very good beginner fish. Start with danios, tetras,
rasboras, cories, or peaceful cichlids and add the livebearers later
when your tank has stabilized.

16. Only buy fish when every fish in the store tank is healthy. If
even one fish is sick or dying, can you tell which one will be next? I
like to see most of the fish on the same shared water system healthy
too. Never add fish store water to your tank and quarantine new fish
for a few weeks if you can.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Victor Martinez

January 31st 06, 12:17 PM

Elaine T wrote:
> 11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you change
> water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out gradually,

Not true at all. I never vaccum my gravel anymore. Plants like
fertilizer. :)

> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing

But we've all done that, haven't we?

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

Gill Passman

January 31st 06, 12:31 PM

Victor Martinez wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> 11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you
>> change water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out
>> gradually,
>
>
> Not true at all. I never vaccum my gravel anymore. Plants like
> fertilizer. :)
>
>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>
>
> But we've all done that, haven't we?
>
>

Small tanks might be the cheapest option but cost more in terms of time
and maintenance....best advice I ever got (regarding tank size) was to
"buy as large as you can afford and have room for" - look where that
landed me - lol. Work has started on the installation of the 6 footer....

As for impulse buying - whoops done it myself a few times...but less and
less these days...

NetMax

January 31st 06, 01:33 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> Eric wrote:
>>
>> OK, I will now reveal that I have at one time worked as a fish
>> professional. I worked for one of the big "evil empire" type stores when
>> I needed an extra job to cover some expenses. Here are some things I wish
>> people knew about fish before they ever thought about keeping an
>> aquarium.
>>
>> 1. You cannot buy an aquarium and the fish you want in it the same day.
>> There were even people who wanted to buy a tank and a clownfish just
>> because they saw Finding Nemo. Even if you bought live sand and filtered
>> seawater this would be a long shot for the little nemo's survival. 2. You
>> can't stock a tank to capacity shortly after setting it up. the number
>> one cause of death is ammonia. Bacteria get rid of ammonia. New tanks
>> don't have these bacteria, so build up slow. It may take a couple of
>> months.
>>
>> 3. Algae will not kill your fish. Some people panic when they see algae.
>> They do stupid things as a result.
>>
>> 4. A teardown and rebuild is a good way to kill your fish. If the fish
>> were happy why do you need to take everything apart? Oh, yeah, algae. 4.
>> It's best to stick to fish that stay under 3 inches in a 10gal. tank
>>
>> 5. You don not *have to* get a CAE or a pl*co in order to "clean the
>> tank". If you just think they're cool, get one, but they are by no means
>> necessary. Every fish you add to a tank increases the load on a tank.
>> There is no magic fish that improves water quality. 6. If you think that
>> AmmoLock, Amquel, or zeolite are a long-term solution to your overcrowded
>> tank, you're wrong. There are countless oscar abusers who mistakenly rely
>> on these products.
>>
>> 7. Don't worry so much about your pH. It's high. The water comes from
>> deep wells that extend into Jurassic seabeds. Your better off just not
>> worrying about and letting your cardinals die young than adding pH Down
>> or worse to your tank.
>>
>> Can anyone else add to this list?
>>
>> -E
>>
> Your algae observations were really funny. I *worry* about fishtanks that
> have no algae at all! What would the fish graze on when I feed lightly?
>
> From another fish store refugee...
>
> 8. Your new tank will most likely have cloudy water for a while. Changing
> the water will only make it worse.
>
> 9. No, guppies (mollies, platies, swordtails) don't lay eggs. Where did
> the babies go? Well, fish have this rule... If it fits into the mouth,
> it's food. Be grateful the babies are gone because livebearers will breed
> you out of house and home unchecked.
>
> 10. Where did your cute little baby neons go? Didn't you buy an
> angelfish last weekend? See number 9. Almost any fish will consider
> eating a much smaller tankmate.
>
> 11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you change
> water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out gradually,
> cleaning a third of the tank for the next 3 water changes. Work up to
> cleaning the whole gravel bed with every water change.
>
> 12. Typical aquaria have strip lights that are wildly inadequate for live
> plants. Why? So typical fish-only tanks don't grow too much algae. Get
> a glass canopy and a good power compact light fixture if you really want
> to grow plants. At a minimum, get a strip with two fluorescent tubes
> instead of one.
>
> 13. Learn how to recognize ich before it wipes out your tank. If you
> can't get to the fish store easily, keep some Quick Cure on hand.
>
> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
> requirements, temperament, compatiblity, and food requirements before you
> buy. The fish you buy on impulse and later wish you hadn't will be the
> one that only eats live food, is too aggressive to keep with the rest of
> your fish, costs a fortune yet hides all the time, or has an adult size of
> 20" long.
>
> 15. Despite their popularity, tempting colors, and low price, livebearers
> are not very good beginner fish. Start with danios, tetras, rasboras,
> cories, or peaceful cichlids and add the livebearers later when your tank
> has stabilized.
>
> 16. Only buy fish when every fish in the store tank is healthy. If even
> one fish is sick or dying, can you tell which one will be next? I like to
> see most of the fish on the same shared water system healthy too. Never
> add fish store water to your tank and quarantine new fish for a few weeks
> if you can.
>
> --
> Elaine T

From yet another fish store refugee:

17. Fluorescent coloured stripes and spots on fish are not natural. They
are called painted fish. The process is not nice, kills most of them, and
the survivors generally don't live as long.

18. Goldfish are NOT air breathers.

19. If you have a fish which kills everything you put into the tank, then
stop trying.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Tedd Jacobs

January 31st 06, 01:55 PM

"Eric" wrote...
>
>
> OK, I will now reveal that I have at one time worked as a fish
> professional.
> I worked for one of the big "evil empire" type stores when I needed an
> extra
> job to cover some expenses. Here are some things I wish people knew about
> fish before they ever thought about keeping an aquarium.
>
> 1. You cannot buy an aquarium and the fish you want in it the same day.
> There
> were even people who wanted to buy a tank and a clownfish just because
> they
> saw Finding Nemo. Even if you bought live sand and filtered seawater this
> would be a long shot for the little nemo's survival.
>
> 2. You can't stock a tank to capacity shortly after setting it up. the
> number
> one cause of death is ammonia. Bacteria get rid of ammonia. New tanks
> don't
> have these bacteria, so build up slow. It may take a couple of months.
>
> 3. Algae will not kill your fish. Some people panic when they see algae.
> They
> do stupid things as a result.
>
> 4. A teardown and rebuild is a good way to kill your fish. If the fish
> were
> happy why do you need to take everything apart? Oh, yeah, algae.
>
> 4. It's best to stick to fish that stay under 3 inches in a 10gal. tank
>
> 5. You don not *have to* get a CAE or a pl*co in order to "clean the
> tank".
> If you just think they're cool, get one, but they are by no means
> necessary.
> Every fish you add to a tank increases the load on a tank. There is no
> magic
> fish that improves water quality.
>
> 6. If you think that AmmoLock, Amquel, or zeolite are a long-term solution
> to
> your overcrowded tank, you're wrong. There are countless oscar abusers who
> mistakenly rely on these products.
>
> 7. Don't worry so much about your pH. It's high. The water comes from deep
> wells that extend into Jurassic seabeds. Your better off just not worrying
> about and letting your cardinals die young than adding pH Down or worse
> to
> your tank.
>
> Can anyone else add to this list?

just a couple,...

8. fish die. two reasons:
a. natural causes
b. effect causes
know the difference starts with how much you mess with their habitat as in
1-4 above.

9. if someone is telling you something you dont want to hear, you should
probably listen.

10. if someone is telling you something you didnt want to hear the first
time, thank them for having the care and patience to tell you again.

11. everyone was a newbie once, there is no mistake you can make that
someone somewhere hasnt already perfected.

12. there are no 'stupid' questions.

13. in spite of everything, fish will still die. take consolence that it
happens to everyone.

and just for something else to do... things you wish newbies knew about
usenet:

1. always type pl*co with an asterix- friday the 13th's and full moons are
real.

2. dont shot the messenger, he may be trying to help.

3. dont feed the trolls, they're canibalistic and get enough to eat anyway.

4. never type N*tM*x with an asterix, he'll still find you.

5. fix that CAPS LOCK key.

6. dont add fuel to the fire and dont fan the flames.

7. crossposting is a plonkable offense.

and last but not least,

8. if you cant say something nice... (this should probably be # 1).

NetMax

January 31st 06, 02:52 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Victor Martinez wrote:
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>>
>>
>> But we've all done that, haven't we?
>>
<snip>

> As for impulse buying - whoops done it myself a few times...but less and
> less these days...

For many of us (experienced and having MTS), the danger of impulse buying
affects us, more than the fish we're buying ;~).

I seen a tank full of Tropheus duboisi last week, for $11.88 cdn each (!!).
I should never go into pet shops.
--
www.NetMax.tk

IDzine01

January 31st 06, 03:10 PM

Ooo. I wanna play...

20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
easier and cheaper to care for.

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 03:55 PM

In article >,
Victor Martinez > wrote:
>Elaine T wrote:
>> 11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you change
>> water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out gradually,
>
>Not true at all. I never vaccum my gravel anymore. Plants like
>fertilizer. :)
>
>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>
>But we've all done that, haven't we?

Killies excluded.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 04:03 PM

In article >,
NetMax > wrote:
>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Victor Martinez wrote:
>>> Elaine T wrote:
>>>
>>>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>>>
>>>
>>> But we've all done that, haven't we?
>>>
><snip>
>
>> As for impulse buying - whoops done it myself a few times...but less and
>> less these days...
>
>For many of us (experienced and having MTS), the danger of impulse buying
>affects us, more than the fish we're buying ;~).
>
>I seen a tank full of Tropheus duboisi last week, for $11.88 cdn each (!!).
>I should never go into pet shops.

Yeah we got that here, too. 50 of the buggers in a tank at $12 ea, all good.
It's an advertised special in a flyer. I mean I open up the stupis redneck local
counry paper and a flyer pops out offering cheap T. duboisi. WTF?

They're ugly when they're big they're ugly when they're big they're ugly when
they're big. I have willpower. They have funny diets. They die easy. Damn they're
cute.

No I dont, I slashed my cars tires so I can't get there. I'm sure the mortgage
company wuld understand missing a payment for a good sized breeding colony...
Hmm, maybe they would...

(plods outdoors) Ok, I've slashed the tires on the truck now too. If I can make
it till Saturday when the sale is over I'll be good.

If they get cheap Altums, I'm ****ed.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 04:30 PM

"Eric" > wrote in message
. sbcglobal.net...
>
>
> OK, I will now reveal that I have at one time worked as a fish
> professional.
> I worked for one of the big "evil empire" type stores when I needed an
> extra
> job to cover some expenses. Here are some things I wish people knew about
> fish before they ever thought about keeping an aquarium.
>
> 1. You cannot buy an aquarium and the fish you want in it the same day.
> There
> were even people who wanted to buy a tank and a clownfish just because
> they
> saw Finding Nemo. Even if you bought live sand and filtered seawater this
> would be a long shot for the little nemo's survival.

These are impulse buys. These are the people who I don't believe stay in
the hobby. They quickly grow tired or discouraged and get rid of their
tanks. Just look at how many tanks you see at garage sales, flea markets
and in the papers.

> 2. You can't stock a tank to capacity shortly after setting it up. the
> number
> one cause of death is ammonia. Bacteria get rid of ammonia. New tanks
> don't
> have these bacteria, so build up slow. It may take a couple of months.

I know you know what it's like trying to explain all this to them. They
want the fish NOW!!!

> 3. Algae will not kill your fish. Some people panic when they see algae.
> They
> do stupid things as a result.

Most would come into the stores where I worked and complain because they
didn't like how it looked. They expected their tanks to looks "brand new"
forever without much, if any, work on their part.

> 5. You don not *have to* get a CAE or a pl*co in order to "clean the
> tank".
> If you just think they're cool, get one, but they are by no means
> necessary.
> Every fish you add to a tank increases the load on a tank. There is no
> magic
> fish that improves water quality.

I remember them coming in and asking me for one of those fish that "eat
other fishes poop." They clearly didn't believe me when I told them there
was no such fish. :-(

> 7. Don't worry so much about your pH. It's high. The water comes from deep
> wells that extend into Jurassic seabeds. Your better off just not worrying
> about and letting your cardinals die young than adding pH Down or worse
> to
> your tank.
>
> Can anyone else add to this list?

I would suggest people know the PH of their water before buying fish. Since
our water is hard and alkaline I only buy fish that are known to thrive in
such water. It's pointless to buy a fish native to waters with a PH of 6.8
or below when my water is almost off the scale at 300 = liquid limestone.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 04:34 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
> requirements, temperament, compatiblity, and food requirements before you
> buy. The fish you buy on impulse and later wish you hadn't will be the
> one that only eats live food, is too aggressive to keep with the rest of
> your fish, costs a fortune yet hides all the time, or has an adult size of
> 20" long.
=================
Impulse buyers were the worst to deal with. They refuse to listen to
anything you try to tell them, then they're on the phone because all the
fish are dying (never mind they put 15 fish in a 10g uncycled tank), the
water smells, the water is cloudy, the complaints go on an on.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 04:47 PM

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> Elaine T wrote:
>> 11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you change
>> water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out gradually,
>
> Not true at all. I never vaccum my gravel anymore. Plants like fertilizer.
> :)

There is no need to do it gradually either, since the nitrifying bacteria
can only survive on the surface. You can do a thorough vac job with no fear
of a deadly ammonia/nitrite spike. Before I took this advice I checked a
tank and ammonia and nitrite were zero. After the thorough vacuuming and
refilling - the ammonia and nitrites were still zero after a few hours.

>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>
> But we've all done that, haven't we?

There you go! :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 04:51 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I seen a tank full of Tropheus duboisi last week, for $11.88 cdn each
> (!!). I should never go into pet shops.
============================
I went into Pet Supermarket the other day for a few more Amazon Sword plants
and came out with not only the plants but another beautiful calico Oranda.
:-)))
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 04:59 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> NetMax > wrote:
>>I seen a tank full of Tropheus duboisi last week, for $11.88 cdn each
>>(!!).
>>I should never go into pet shops.

> Yeah we got that here, too. 50 of the buggers in a tank at $12 ea, all
> good.
> It's an advertised special in a flyer. I mean I open up the stupis redneck
> local
> counry paper and a flyer pops out offering cheap T. duboisi. WTF?

Where I live in TN all the cichlids have gone down in price, by more than
half from a few years ago. The chains carry them even cheaper than the
local aquarium stores. They're not the greatest sellers the girl at
PetsMart told me. I think people are wise to the fact they don't make good
community tank residents. If they're not harassing the other fish or each
other they're rearranging the tanks decorations. After one experience with
them people don't want any more.......

> No I dont, I slashed my cars tires so I can't get there. I'm sure the
> mortgage
> company wuld understand missing a payment for a good sized breeding
> colony...
> Hmm, maybe they would...

Do what I used to do when I went to fish auctions in NYC. Leave your charge
cards and check-book at home. Take only the cash you can afford to spend.
:-) It works.

> (plods outdoors) Ok, I've slashed the tires on the truck now too. If I can
> make
> it till Saturday when the sale is over I'll be good.

ROFLMAO!!! :-D

> If they get cheap Altums, I'm fxxxed.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 05:01 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> From yet another fish store refugee:
>
> 17. Fluorescent coloured stripes and spots on fish are not natural. They
> are called painted fish. The process is not nice, kills most of them, and
> the survivors generally don't live as long.
============================
These were a flash in the pan here. I don't see this cruel practice being
done anymore - thank Gawd!
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 05:04 PM

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ooo. I wanna play...
>
> 20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
> heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
> easier and cheaper to care for.
===============================
Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
after a week at most.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

spiral_72

January 31st 06, 05:40 PM

21. Never, ever, under any circumstances..... feed your fish after
midnight.

(Ok, so the movie "Gremlins" is a bit old)

Elaine T

January 31st 06, 05:40 PM

Victor Martinez wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> 11. You have to use a gravel vacuum to clean the gravel when you
>> change water. If you've never cleaned the gravel before, start out
>> gradually,
>
>
> Not true at all. I never vaccum my gravel anymore. Plants like
> fertilizer. :)

Yes, but how many new aquarists actually have enough plants? I saw vial
after vial of pH 6 water from people with dying fish who changed water
but never vacuumed their gravel.

>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>
>
> But we've all done that, haven't we?

When you're working in a store, you wish people wouldn't. The customers
end up dissatisfied with the service (even though we TOLD them that that
cute little Auratus was not a good choice) or bringing fish back in buckets.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

NetMax

January 31st 06, 05:51 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> NetMax > wrote:
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>> Victor Martinez wrote:
>>>> Elaine T wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 14. Never buy a fish on impulse. Research its future size, housing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But we've all done that, haven't we?
>>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> As for impulse buying - whoops done it myself a few times...but less and
>>> less these days...
>>
>>For many of us (experienced and having MTS), the danger of impulse buying
>>affects us, more than the fish we're buying ;~).
>>
>>I seen a tank full of Tropheus duboisi last week, for $11.88 cdn each
>>(!!).
>>I should never go into pet shops.
>
> Yeah we got that here, too. 50 of the buggers in a tank at $12 ea, all
> good.
> It's an advertised special in a flyer. I mean I open up the stupis redneck
> local
> counry paper and a flyer pops out offering cheap T. duboisi. WTF?
>
> They're ugly when they're big they're ugly when they're big they're ugly
> when
> they're big. I have willpower. They have funny diets. They die easy. Damn
> they're
> cute.
>
> No I dont, I slashed my cars tires so I can't get there. I'm sure the
> mortgage
> company wuld understand missing a payment for a good sized breeding
> colony...
> Hmm, maybe they would...
>
> (plods outdoors) Ok, I've slashed the tires on the truck now too. If I can
> make
> it till Saturday when the sale is over I'll be good.
>
> If they get cheap Altums, I'm ...

ROTFLMAO, tears in my eyes. Thanks Richard!

Someone knows exactly how I feel (that 70g would hold a nice tropheus colony
if I rush all the fish into the tank under construction, or maybe I'll just
use the bathtub for a while, I can take showers ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

IDzine01

January 31st 06, 06:29 PM

>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
>after a week at most.

Yeah, well for some reason, unbeknownst to myself, one very important
word has been dropped from the vocabulary of many parents recently.

"no"

Gill Passman

January 31st 06, 06:33 PM

spiral_72 wrote:
> 21. Never, ever, under any circumstances..... feed your fish after
> midnight.
>
> (Ok, so the movie "Gremlins" is a bit old)
>
ROFLOL - some of us are old enough....

Gill Passman

January 31st 06, 06:43 PM

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 06:44 PM

In article >,
NetMax > wrote:
>
>Someone knows exactly how I feel (that 70g would hold a nice tropheus colony
>if I rush all the fish into the tank under construction, or maybe I'll just
>use the bathtub for a while, I can take showers ;~).

Don't go there. Damsels are only $6 ea.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Charles

January 31st 06, 06:54 PM

From the other side of the asile

Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that they
know all about all the things they sell.

just because the plants are displayed underwater does not mean they
will survive there.

Small Oscars are cuter than big ones. Small ones don't stay small.

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 06:58 PM

>>
>> 20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
>> heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
>> easier and cheaper to care for.
>
>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
>after a week at most.

Too true, that's why I'm stuck here with a bearded dragon next to my desk.
(Will they get enough calcium from crickets gut loaded with tortillas
which are made with lime? I know this is usenet, but no guessing, anybody
know?).

Ithink the petshop should have the wits to point out to the kid mommy or
daddy may have to feed ralphie the wonder fish when kiddo is away at a friends
house and if they get a fish mummy or daddy like a lot too I bet they'll
take care of it better. Harm reduction. if you're gonna get stuck with
a kids animal, make it one you like. Bettas are good.

>--
>Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>Aquariums since 1952
>My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>http://tinyurl.com/9do58
>Troll Information:
>http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
>Reading Headers:
>http://tinyurl.com/amm9s

Could you put these on one line by any chance?

Like:

>Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995. Aquariums since 1952.
>http://tinyurl.com/9do58 http://tinyurl.com/9zbh http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 07:00 PM

In article om>,
IDzine01 > wrote:
>>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
>>after a week at most.
>
>Yeah, well for some reason, unbeknownst to myself, one very important
>word has been dropped from the vocabulary of many parents recently.
>
>"no"

It's not been dropped so much as ignored by the receiving end. They can
go on a bit.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 07:12 PM

>I would suggest people know the PH of their water before buying fish. Since
>our water is hard and alkaline I only buy fish that are known to thrive in
>such water. It's pointless to buy a fish native to waters with a PH of 6.8
>or below when my water is almost off the scale at 300 = liquid limestone.

1) pH doesn't matter, hardness does.
2) you can safely move fishes from soft to hard water but not the other way.
3) you can change half the water a day if you're moving them to softer water.

he fishes tissues dont care what kind of ions, alkaline or acid are flaoting
around in their gills but if you change the amount of those ions drastically
then, osmosis being what it is, the fish loses all it's body chemical
rather quickly. And dies.

300 is "medium soft". 50 is "soft". 0 is "pure" and very difficut to
deal with although there are fish that live in this, usually with
a pH of about 4.

For refernece, LS tapwater is 600-900 ppm and is "hard". Liquid rock
begins at 1200ppm and is great for plants - lousy for Apistogrammas;
ask me how I know. Did I mention we have a limestone well? But living
on the Canadian shield has its advantages material wise; I jsut scooped
up about 40 pounds of flourite size of chocolate limestone gravel
from a spot near here. yes yes,too hard it'll leech carbonates into
the water. Good, I have to add lots as it is. Some crypts grow in
limestone, such as balansae ("BAL") and pontiderifolia ("PON").
--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Mr. Gardener

January 31st 06, 07:16 PM

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:04:09 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Ooo. I wanna play...
>>
>> 20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
>> heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
>> easier and cheaper to care for.
>===============================
>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
>after a week at most.

Tell the badgering and nagging child that if he doesn't get his act
together you will send him to the reptile department and lock him in
with the snakes.

Mr. Gardener

January 31st 06, 07:19 PM

On 31 Jan 2006 10:29:13 -0800, "IDzine01" >
wrote:

>>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
>>after a week at most.
>
>Yeah, well for some reason, unbeknownst to myself, one very important
>word has been dropped from the vocabulary of many parents recently.
>
>"no"

How very true. I'm certain we would be in much better financial shape
today if my wife had learned to say "no" to me.

Mr Gardener

Richard Sexton

January 31st 06, 08:03 PM

>>> 20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
>>> heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
>>> easier and cheaper to care for.
>>===============================
>>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose interest
>>after a week at most.
>
>Tell the badgering and nagging child that if he doesn't get his act
>together you will send him to the reptile department and lock him in
>with the snakes.

Tried that. She went back next wek and bought a tarantula and uh, forgot
tell us. Kept it in the barn. Got out. Thank God it was early May and
still below zero some nights. Never saw it again. Did I mention Bettas
are good?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Gill Passman

January 31st 06, 08:07 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
> spiral_72 wrote:
>
>> 21. Never, ever, under any circumstances..... feed your fish after
>> midnight.
>>
>> (Ok, so the movie "Gremlins" is a bit old)
>>
> ROFLOL - some of us are old enough....

OK - I've tried to resist....

22. Also never, ever, put them near water....

IDzine01

January 31st 06, 09:25 PM

>Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that they
>know all about all the things they sell.

The following is a conversation I had with a PetSmart employee...

Me:

"So, my carbonate hardness is really low at my house and I have been
having pH crashes because of it. I was wondering, what's the KH here?"

Clerk:

"Uh, what's carbonate hardness?"

Me:

"The buffering capacity?"

Clerk:

"I don't know what that is."

Me:

"Certainly you know it's a problem all over Massachusetts? The water
treatment facility alters the pH. Anyone in the entire state with city
water has to deal with this."

Clerk:
"I've never tested my water."

Ok, so Newbies are not expected to know what carbonate hardness is when
first starting out but if you are selling fish this is kinda basic. If
you are selling fish in a place where carbonate hardness is 20ppm you
SO have to know what KH is.

NetMax

January 31st 06, 09:44 PM

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that they
>>know all about all the things they sell.
>
> The following is a conversation I had with a PetSmart employee...
>
>
> Me:
>
> "So, my carbonate hardness is really low at my house and I have been
> having pH crashes because of it. I was wondering, what's the KH here?"
>
> Clerk:
>
> "Uh, what's carbonate hardness?"
>
> Me:
>
> "The buffering capacity?"
>
> Clerk:
>
> "I don't know what that is."
>
> Me:
>
> "Certainly you know it's a problem all over Massachusetts? The water
> treatment facility alters the pH. Anyone in the entire state with city
> water has to deal with this."
>
> Clerk:
> "I've never tested my water."
>
> Ok, so Newbies are not expected to know what carbonate hardness is when
> first starting out but if you are selling fish this is kinda basic. If
> you are selling fish in a place where carbonate hardness is 20ppm you
> SO have to know what KH is.

When I was hiring, I had a very hard time finding employees who even owned
an aquarium (we were in a new community). At one point, I hired someone
who's parents had an aquarium (and it looked a little interesting to them)
and another who's entire experience was one Betta in a bowl. Good help can
be hard to find. I think every conversation with a new clerk offering
advice should start like this

Me: "Do you even personally own an aquarium - and what kind of fish do you
have, and for how long"?
(You would be amazed at the number of answers you get that sound like...)

Clerk: "No, but my brother/friend/neighbour once had an aquarium".

Only 3 people I ever hired had any idea what a buffer is. Everyone got
trained. The average level of expertise in this NG is probably 10 times
greater than the average clerk.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 10:23 PM

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose
>>interest
>>after a week at most.
>
> Yeah, well for some reason, unbeknownst to myself, one very important
> word has been dropped from the vocabulary of many parents recently.
>
> "no"
================================
You got that right! Just go into any K-Mart or Wally World on the weekends
when they bring the kiddies with them. What the children want the children
get, or they pitch a screaming fit to wake the dead and run the deaf folks
from the store.......

The sad part is when the novelty of a new fish wears off the fish is all too
often neglected, forgotten, .... and left to die. I wish these stores would
offer to take the fish back (for free) in such cases, but they wont.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Mr. Gardener

January 31st 06, 10:24 PM

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:44:54 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> >Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that they
>>>know all about all the things they sell.
>>
>> The following is a conversation I had with a PetSmart employee...
>>
>>
>> Me:
>>
>> "So, my carbonate hardness is really low at my house and I have been
>> having pH crashes because of it. I was wondering, what's the KH here?"
>>
>> Clerk:
>>
>> "Uh, what's carbonate hardness?"
>>
>> Me:
>>
>> "The buffering capacity?"
>>
>> Clerk:
>>
>> "I don't know what that is."
>>
>> Me:
>>
>> "Certainly you know it's a problem all over Massachusetts? The water
>> treatment facility alters the pH. Anyone in the entire state with city
>> water has to deal with this."
>>
>> Clerk:
>> "I've never tested my water."
>>
>> Ok, so Newbies are not expected to know what carbonate hardness is when
>> first starting out but if you are selling fish this is kinda basic. If
>> you are selling fish in a place where carbonate hardness is 20ppm you
>> SO have to know what KH is.
>
>
>When I was hiring, I had a very hard time finding employees who even owned
>an aquarium (we were in a new community). At one point, I hired someone
>who's parents had an aquarium (and it looked a little interesting to them)
>and another who's entire experience was one Betta in a bowl. Good help can
>be hard to find. I think every conversation with a new clerk offering
>advice should start like this
>
>Me: "Do you even personally own an aquarium - and what kind of fish do you
>have, and for how long"?
>(You would be amazed at the number of answers you get that sound like...)
>
>Clerk: "No, but my brother/friend/neighbour once had an aquarium".
>
>Only 3 people I ever hired had any idea what a buffer is. Everyone got
>trained. The average level of expertise in this NG is probably 10 times
>greater than the average clerk.

"Everybody got trained" are the key words here. In some ways, it can
be easier and more productive when you are beginning from a blank
slate. Nothing to erase and you know that your employees (or are they
called "associates" these days) are giving your customers straight
information and they will also know where to look it up or who to ask
when they don't have all the answers. I'm wary of a clerk who is too
quick with answers to questions that should requre some thought.

Gill Passman

January 31st 06, 11:00 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>> >Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>>
>>> them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose
>>> interest
>>> after a week at most.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, well for some reason, unbeknownst to myself, one very important
>> word has been dropped from the vocabulary of many parents recently.
>>
>> "no"
>
> ================================
> You got that right! Just go into any K-Mart or Wally World on the
> weekends
> when they bring the kiddies with them. What the children want the children
> get, or they pitch a screaming fit to wake the dead and run the deaf folks
> from the store.......
>
> The sad part is when the novelty of a new fish wears off the fish is all
> too
> often neglected, forgotten, .... and left to die. I wish these stores
> would
> offer to take the fish back (for free) in such cases, but they wont.

As I keep saying, from time to time, and with the great hope of not
becoming a bore....In the UK they will take the fish back (the good
places anyway) - you might not get a refund or any decent credit but at
least you know that the fish is relatively safe and if unwanted gets a
second chance - until the next person buys it of course....

Yep, I appreciate in the UK that the rules are different...everything is
under strict control...

I took a quick check at the LFS today...the cheapest goldfish on sale
(which was around 1 1/2 inches) was priced at £2.35...the Neon tetras
are priced at £5 for 6 - tropicals in the UK are cheaper than
goldfish...the majority of the more fancy goldfish were between £5-10.
Koi retail at anything from £10 to £100. Maybe the price of the fish
also stops people from investing in a "short term toy" for their
kids...To be quite honest, even when I was a kid, the only way to get a
"cheap" goldfish was to win it at the fair (and that was never really
cheap). In the UK the publicity against "bowls" started in the early
70's - it was quite soon after that that we had tanks...my Mother used
to sneak the water changes as she read up on them...we as kids didn't
have a clue...as an adult I always kept goldfish in tanks - as the
years, and education continued these were tanks with filters and
lights....we bought a "starter kit" from PetSmart (now Pets at Home in
the UK) and this was what came with it for goldfish....and they wouldn't
sell me fish either until it was set up and running...

I think it's time you guys stood up and shouted - our stores are
regulated and licensed....in the UK there is a trade association - OATA
- maybe it should infiltrate the States (I'm not sure that it hasn't
started to) and SHOUT OUT LOUD for better service, advice and fish care....

Gill

Sean

January 31st 06, 11:42 PM

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> From the other side of the asile
>
> Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that they
> know all about all the things they sell.

Very true. It was one of the conversations I had with a Pets Unlimited fish
dept manager that made me vow never to buy anything but dried wood from
there.

Me: "So what kind of diet do you have these Piranha on?" Fish "expert":
"We feed them a goldfish every other day."

These Piranha were about 8" long being fed goldfish that topped out of about
maybe 2", not to mention that goldfish are not high in nutrients. Needless
to say as the weeks went by and the two Piranha actually started looking
pale, (literally as there was no coloration at all, even the black was
leeched from the tails) I wasn't surprised to walk in and find one guy
missing.

Fish "experts" reason/solution: "One got "saucy" and bit the other in half
for some reason, we put a bigger one in with him, that should solve the
problem."

> Small Oscars are cuter than big ones. Small ones don't stay small.

Cute Oscar? There's a goodo one. They are as ugly as hell at any stage.

Sean

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 11:47 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> often neglected, forgotten, .... and left to die. I wish these stores
>> would
>> offer to take the fish back (for free) in such cases, but they wont.
==========================
> As I keep saying, from time to time, and with the great hope of not
> becoming a bore....In the UK they will take the fish back (the good places
> anyway) - you might not get a refund or any decent credit but at least you
> know that the fish is relatively safe and if unwanted gets a second
> chance - until the next person buys it of course....

The reason the chains wont do that here is fear of taking back a fish that
was exposed to some parasite or serious viral diseases. They also have
contracts with wholesalers who forbid it. The M&P places will often take
the fish back or other fish someone no longer wants.

> I took a quick check at the LFS today...the cheapest goldfish on sale
> (which was around 1 1/2 inches) was priced at £2.35..

I am unfamiliar with your monetary system.

..the Neon tetras
> are priced at £5 for 6 - tropicals in the UK are cheaper than
> goldfish...the majority of the more fancy goldfish were between £5-10. Koi
> retail at anything from £10 to £100. Maybe the price of the fish also
> stops people from investing in a "short term toy" for their kids...

GF here start at 10¢ as feeders. You can get some nice small fancy GF if
you shop around for under $5.00. I've seen the same size and quality GF,
probably from the same wholesalers, range in price from $6.99 to $19.99. It
depends what the neighborhood is like and if it's a chain store. This also
applies to other fish as well but not as drastically as the GF.

To be quite honest, even when I was a kid, the only way to get a
> "cheap" goldfish was to win it at the fair (and that was never really
> cheap). In the UK the publicity against "bowls" started in the early
> 70's - it was quite soon after that that we had tanks...

I was really upset today to see this large aquarium store with GF bowls
above the GF tanks. I was sick! I never thought this place would sell GF
with a bowl. I'll speak to him about it when I can catch him not busy one
day. But I'm sure he (I'm guessing here) feels if he don't sell the parent
of a child the bowl they'll just go down the road and buy elsewhere. It's
very upsetting.

my Mother used
> to sneak the water changes as she read up on them...we as kids didn't have
> a clue...as an adult I always kept goldfish in tanks - as the years, and
> education continued these were tanks with filters and lights....

My mother was lucky in 1952 to have the shop clue her in right from the
start and sell her all the right stuff. We had those guppies for ages.
Finally when I was about 12 I bought a 10g tank and moved them into my
bedroom,.... but you know, I can't remember what happened to them.

we bought a "starter kit" from PetSmart (now Pets at Home in
> the UK) and this was what came with it for goldfish....and they wouldn't
> sell me fish either until it was set up and running...

What a difference. I looked for those tiny, tiny bowls the betta gal
mentioned here but all I saw were those little Ivy bowls and things that
held about 8oz of water. There sure was a large selection of bowls for
bettas.

> I think it's time you guys stood up and shouted

The merchants shout louder! We can't even get the miserable minimum wage
raised here. Millions don't have health coverage.... no one wants to hear
about pet shops and fish.

- our stores are
> regulated and licensed....in the UK there is a trade association - OATA -
> maybe it should infiltrate the States (I'm not sure that it hasn't started
> to) and SHOUT OUT LOUD for better service, advice and fish care....
>
> Gill

Many people do! They complained so much about one HUGE chain to it's head
office that they removed the live pet dept. altogether. :-) I was
thrilled. I well remember the faint but foul stench of dead rotting fish,
dead hamsters and birds. UGH! It would make me sick. The manager would
run and hide when he saw me coming........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

January 31st 06, 11:51 PM

Sean wrote:
> "Charles" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>From the other side of the asile
>>
>>Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that they
>>know all about all the things they sell.
>
>
> Very true. It was one of the conversations I had with a Pets Unlimited fish
> dept manager that made me vow never to buy anything but dried wood from
> there.
>
> Me: "So what kind of diet do you have these Piranha on?" Fish "expert":
> "We feed them a goldfish every other day."
>
> These Piranha were about 8" long being fed goldfish that topped out of about
> maybe 2", not to mention that goldfish are not high in nutrients. Needless
> to say as the weeks went by and the two Piranha actually started looking
> pale, (literally as there was no coloration at all, even the black was
> leeched from the tails) I wasn't surprised to walk in and find one guy
> missing.
>
> Fish "experts" reason/solution: "One got "saucy" and bit the other in half
> for some reason, we put a bigger one in with him, that should solve the
> problem."
>
>
>
>>Small Oscars are cuter than big ones. Small ones don't stay small.
>
>
> Cute Oscar? There's a goodo one. They are as ugly as hell at any stage.
>
> Sean
>
>
I was standing today in the LFS inspecting the fish to see if anything
caught my fancy...it was quiet but there was a woman beside me who was
very concerned about one of the Oscars in the tank and mentioned it to
me...it looked as if it had a large piece of gravel stuck in it's mouth
- gills going ten to a dozen...I was on the verge of calling one of the
staff over when it spat out whatever was in its mouth - looked like a
bit of shrimp....it then hastily picked it up and lodged it in it's
mouth again....and bits of shrimp flew out left, right and centre....

I guess they have character...not a fish for me though...couldn't bear
to give up that amount of tank space :-)

Gill

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 11:52 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> 20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
>>> heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
>>> easier and cheaper to care for.
>>
>>Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and nagging
>>them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose
>>interest
>>after a week at most.
>
> Too true, that's why I'm stuck here with a bearded dragon next to my desk.
> (Will they get enough calcium from crickets gut loaded with tortillas
> which are made with lime? I know this is usenet, but no guessing, anybody
> know?).

I don't know. I used to shake 'n bake the crickets in a special
vitamin/mineral powder for captive lizards and amphibians. The crickets
themselves were fed cereals and wheat germ.

> Ithink the petshop should have the wits to point out to the kid mommy or
> daddy may have to feed ralphie the wonder fish when kiddo is away at a
> friends
> house and if they get a fish mummy or daddy like a lot too I bet they'll
> take care of it better. Harm reduction. if you're gonna get stuck with
> a kids animal, make it one you like. Bettas are good.

Fortunately my son liked whatever I pointed out so BOTH of us were happy.
I'm thrilled that my grandson has an interest in fish now. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Sean

January 31st 06, 11:52 PM

>and they wouldn't sell me fish either until it was set up and running...

We don't have the other regs you were speaking of. Here if you ask about or
buy a tank, they will not let you purchase the fish for a week, and they
won't let you then unless you bring in a water sample for them to test.
That's about the only defense a fishy has here.

Sean

Koi-Lo

January 31st 06, 11:54 PM

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> Tell the badgering and nagging child that if he doesn't get his act
> together you will send him to the reptile department and lock him in
> with the snakes.
====================
LOL!!!! Nowadays they'll arrest you for child abuse if you said that to
the little rug-rat. ;-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Sean

February 1st 06, 12:02 AM

> I was standing today in the LFS inspecting the fish to see if anything
> caught my fancy...it was quiet but there was a woman beside me who was
> very concerned about one of the Oscars in the tank and mentioned it to
> me...it looked as if it had a large piece of gravel stuck in it's mouth -
> gills going ten to a dozen...I was on the verge of calling one of the
> staff over when it spat out whatever was in its mouth - looked like a bit
> of shrimp....it then hastily picked it up and lodged it in it's mouth
> again....and bits of shrimp flew out left, right and centre....
>
> I guess they have character...not a fish for me though...couldn't bear to
> give up that amount of tank space :-)
>
> Gill

I like to affectionately call them the "sick beagle" of the fish world.
They inhale everything and usually yak it sometime later. And if they don't
like an ornament or plant they are quite a pain in the bottom. A friend of
mine had very large Oscar living solo in a 120 gallon tank (alone because he
ate everyone else) that would pick up and kind of throw the small ceramic
bubble chest my friend had in the tank. Often we would come home from a
party and there was the chest swinging by the air tubing outside the tank.
He changed out a broken heater with a larger one. Mr. Oscar didn't like
that. When the heater would start up a red light would come on inside the
glass tube. We had the privilege of watching Oscar ram the heater like a
bull on a matador. He was a character to say the least. Cute! Whatever!

Sean

Bill Stock

February 1st 06, 12:10 AM

Bill Stock

February 1st 06, 12:12 AM

Charles

February 1st 06, 12:15 AM

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:10:53 -0500, "Bill Stock" >
wrote:

>
>"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Ooo. I wanna play...
>>
>> 20. Fish aren't cheap. If you can't afford a tank that fits the fish, a
>> heater and test kits, this hobby isn't for you. Get a cat. They're
>> easier and cheaper to care for.
>
>Yeah, but the fish don't wake me up at 5 am because they're hungry or they
>want to play. :)
>
>

I've had filters wake me up at 3 AM when they decided to seize.

Koi-Lo

February 1st 06, 12:19 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I would suggest people know the PH of their water before buying fish.
> >Since
>>our water is hard and alkaline I only buy fish that are known to thrive in
>>such water. It's pointless to buy a fish native to waters with a PH of
>>6.8
>>or below when my water is almost off the scale at 300 = liquid limestone.
>
> 1) pH doesn't matter, hardness does.

I forgot to mention the PH which varies from 7.8 to 8.2, even higher at
times. My kit (hardness) only goes to 300.

> 2) you can safely move fishes from soft to hard water but not the other
> way.

I loose too many within a few days of purchase even when I take hours to
acclimate them. I add the hard water little by little, little by
little..... then put them in the quarantine tank. Virtually all survive if
the water they were in at the store was over 7. Below 7 and I have problems
so avoid the Petco store.

> 3) you can change half the water a day if you're moving them to softer
> water.

Softer water? No such thing here unless you buy it or make your own.

> he fishes tissues dont care what kind of ions, alkaline or acid are
> flaoting
> around in their gills but if you change the amount of those ions
> drastically
> then, osmosis being what it is, the fish loses all it's body chemical
> rather quickly. And dies.

I understand that. The water at that one store is also soft. It's not
worth the hassle. OTOH even when I bought soft-water fish they seldom
thrived in our water. Bettas adapt but don't breed for instance.

> 300 is "medium soft". 50 is "soft". 0 is "pure" and very difficut to
> deal with although there are fish that live in this, usually with
> a pH of about 4.

Ok. The kit I have says 0 to 25 is very soft, 75 is soft, 150 is hard and
300 is very hard = GH. This is the Jungle Quick-Dip kit. There are mineral
deposits on everything. Mine is at 300, that's as high as the kit goes.

efernece, LS tapwater is 600-900 ppm and is "hard". Liquid rock
> begins at 1200ppm and is great for plants - lousy for Apistogrammas;
> ask me how I know. Did I mention we have a limestone well? But living
> on the Canadian shield has its advantages material wise; I jsut scooped
> up about 40 pounds of flourite size of chocolate limestone gravel
> from a spot near here. yes yes,too hard it'll leech carbonates into
> the water. Good, I have to add lots as it is. Some crypts grow in
> limestone, such as balansae ("BAL") and pontiderifolia ("PON").

Yikes! That's beyond hard!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[email protected]

February 1st 06, 04:02 AM

Koi-Lo wrote:
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > NetMax > wrote:
> >>I seen a tank full of Tropheus duboisi last week, for $11.88 cdn each
> >>(!!).
> >>I should never go into pet shops.
>
> > Yeah we got that here, too. 50 of the buggers in a tank at $12 ea, all
> > good.
> > It's an advertised special in a flyer. I mean I open up the stupis redneck
> > local
> > counry paper and a flyer pops out offering cheap T. duboisi. WTF?
>
> Where I live in TN all the cichlids have gone down in price, by more than
> half from a few years ago.

Carolyn Adamo Gulley
3245 North Lamar Road Mount Juliet TN 37122-7806
Phone 615-459-9345

has been caught in various vicious lies!
Before plaguing ARJW with her nonsense, she use to plague the Health NG
do a google search on Yarrow / windsong / Carol for more details.

http://tinyurl.com/99azt
http://tinyurl.com/87ow4
http://tinyurl.com/d6t5m
http://tinyurl.com/aheek
http://tinyurl.com/ck97r
http://tinyurl.com/cm3dp
http://tinyurl.com/8bscg
http://tinyurl.com/7epdg
http://tinyurl.com/bya3z
When she is best by a man she accuse him of stalking

http://tinyurl.com/8wryt

Before you reply, you may want to ask her a few things or only one.
_Where does she get her information?
_Can her information be verified?
_Is the information up to date?

Jürgen Exner

February 1st 06, 04:11 AM

wrote:
[A lot of whatever]

Your application for fast track into my killfile has been approved

jue

NetMax

February 1st 06, 05:26 AM

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:44:54 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> >Just because someone works in a pet shop, it does not follow that
>>> >they
>>>>know all about all the things they sell.
>>>
>>> The following is a conversation I had with a PetSmart employee...
>>>
>>>
>>> Me:
>>>
>>> "So, my carbonate hardness is really low at my house and I have been
>>> having pH crashes because of it. I was wondering, what's the KH
>>> here?"
>>>
>>> Clerk:
>>>
>>> "Uh, what's carbonate hardness?"
>>>
>>> Me:
>>>
>>> "The buffering capacity?"
>>>
>>> Clerk:
>>>
>>> "I don't know what that is."
>>>
>>> Me:
>>>
>>> "Certainly you know it's a problem all over Massachusetts? The water
>>> treatment facility alters the pH. Anyone in the entire state with
>>> city
>>> water has to deal with this."
>>>
>>> Clerk:
>>> "I've never tested my water."
>>>
>>> Ok, so Newbies are not expected to know what carbonate hardness is
>>> when
>>> first starting out but if you are selling fish this is kinda basic.
>>> If
>>> you are selling fish in a place where carbonate hardness is 20ppm you
>>> SO have to know what KH is.
>>
>>
>>When I was hiring, I had a very hard time finding employees who even
>>owned
>>an aquarium (we were in a new community). At one point, I hired
>>someone
>>who's parents had an aquarium (and it looked a little interesting to
>>them)
>>and another who's entire experience was one Betta in a bowl. Good help
>>can
>>be hard to find. I think every conversation with a new clerk offering
>>advice should start like this
>>
>>Me: "Do you even personally own an aquarium - and what kind of fish do
>>you
>>have, and for how long"?
>>(You would be amazed at the number of answers you get that sound
>>like...)
>>
>>Clerk: "No, but my brother/friend/neighbour once had an aquarium".
>>
>>Only 3 people I ever hired had any idea what a buffer is. Everyone got
>>trained. The average level of expertise in this NG is probably 10
>>times
>>greater than the average clerk.
>
> "Everybody got trained" are the key words here. In some ways, it can
> be easier and more productive when you are beginning from a blank
> slate. Nothing to erase and you know that your employees (or are they
> called "associates" these days) are giving your customers straight
> information and they will also know where to look it up or who to ask
> when they don't have all the answers. I'm wary of a clerk who is too
> quick with answers to questions that should requre some thought.

Employees, and yes, everyone got trained. I wrote up a training matrices
and manual, but it still took months for them to complete the outline
(lots to cover). One new employee had enough elementary training that
they were assigned gravel vacuuming and water changes. I went by a tank
and all the cichlids were looking at me with a 'pained' expression. I
put my hand on the glass. They had filled the tank with ice-cold water.
Quickly added some hot water and the fish were fine (tough old cichlids).
I guess my 'elementary' training wasn't quite elementary enough ;~).

Also did two other things. Always had an 'old timer' on duty, so the
kids were taught to say "I don't know, but I'll find out for you", and I
made the old-timers take my course. They were really not enthusiastic at
first, but I told them that I wanted them to know what the kids were
being taught, so they could re-enforce it. By the end of it, they
realized that there was a lot of stuff that they didn't know too.

credo= never stop learning :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

Dick

February 1st 06, 11:45 AM

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:19:00 GMT, Eric > wrote:

>
>
>OK, I will now reveal that I have at one time worked as a fish professional.
>I worked for one of the big "evil empire" type stores when I needed an extra
>job to cover some expenses. Here are some things I wish people knew about
>fish before they ever thought about keeping an aquarium.
>
>1. You cannot buy an aquarium and the fish you want in it the same day. There
>were even people who wanted to buy a tank and a clownfish just because they
>saw Finding Nemo. Even if you bought live sand and filtered seawater this
>would be a long shot for the little nemo's survival.
>
>2. You can't stock a tank to capacity shortly after setting it up. the number
>one cause of death is ammonia. Bacteria get rid of ammonia. New tanks don't
>have these bacteria, so build up slow. It may take a couple of months.
>
>3. Algae will not kill your fish. Some people panic when they see algae. They
>do stupid things as a result.
>
>4. A teardown and rebuild is a good way to kill your fish. If the fish were
>happy why do you need to take everything apart? Oh, yeah, algae.
>
>4. It's best to stick to fish that stay under 3 inches in a 10gal. tank
>
>5. You don not *have to* get a CAE or a pl*co in order to "clean the tank".
>If you just think they're cool, get one, but they are by no means necessary.
>Every fish you add to a tank increases the load on a tank. There is no magic
>fish that improves water quality.
>
>6. If you think that AmmoLock, Amquel, or zeolite are a long-term solution to
>your overcrowded tank, you're wrong. There are countless oscar abusers who
>mistakenly rely on these products.
>
>7. Don't worry so much about your pH. It's high. The water comes from deep
>wells that extend into Jurassic seabeds. Your better off just not worrying
>about and letting your cardinals die young than adding pH Down or worse to
>your tank.
>
>Can anyone else add to this list?
>
>-E
>
>
If I were not an "Impulse" buyer, I would never have bid on that eBay
75 gallon tank with its beautiful custom cabinet. Thus I would have
saved the 700 mile round trip to Oklahoma City arriving at the
seller's house at 9 PM and loading all into my motorhome, then start
driving home5 AM next morning, driving through rain and snow, stopping
at Odessa, Tx to buy gravel, fish and plants, getting home at 6 PM,
calling a friend to help move tank and cabinet into the house.
Filling the tank and putting in the gravel, plants and fish then going
to bed.

Everyone, me my dogs, fish and friend survived and now I have my
little home filled with more "impulses."

Sometimes we can know too much and end up doing nothing.

I am a believer in "survival of the fittest. I love my impulses, they
allow me to act instead of think. I try to learn from my mistakes,
but not trying is not acceptable.

Those lovely little gold fish bowls would not push my impulse button,
but many a fish keeper of today started with some impulse I would bet.
Sure I feel sorry for the fish that must pay the price of our
mistakes. Same for puppies, kittens and other innocent life.

dick

sew crazy

February 1st 06, 08:08 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>>> >Tell that to an uninterested parent whose child is badgering and
>>> >nagging
>>>
>>>> them to death for a fish. Said parent knowing the child will lose
>>>> interest
>>>> after a week at most.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, well for some reason, unbeknownst to myself, one very important
>>> word has been dropped from the vocabulary of many parents recently.
>>>
>>> "no"
>>
>> ================================
>> You got that right! Just go into any K-Mart or Wally World on the
>> weekends
>> when they bring the kiddies with them. What the children want the
>> children
>> get, or they pitch a screaming fit to wake the dead and run the deaf
>> folks
>> from the store.......
>>
>> The sad part is when the novelty of a new fish wears off the fish is all
>> too
>> often neglected, forgotten, .... and left to die. I wish these stores
>> would
>> offer to take the fish back (for free) in such cases, but they wont.
>
> As I keep saying, from time to time, and with the great hope of not
> becoming a bore....In the UK they will take the fish back (the good places
> anyway) - you might not get a refund or any decent credit but at least you
> know that the fish is relatively safe and if unwanted gets a second
> chance - until the next person buys it of course....
>
> Yep, I appreciate in the UK that the rules are different...everything is
> under strict control...
>
> I took a quick check at the LFS today...the cheapest goldfish on sale
> (which was around 1 1/2 inches) was priced at £2.35...the Neon tetras are
> priced at £5 for 6 - tropicals in the UK are cheaper than goldfish...the
> majority of the more fancy goldfish were between £5-10. Koi retail at
> anything from £10 to £100. Maybe the price of the fish also stops people
> from investing in a "short term toy" for their kids...To be quite honest,
> even when I was a kid, the only way to get a "cheap" goldfish was to win
> it at the fair (and that was never really cheap). In the UK the publicity
> against "bowls" started in the early 70's - it was quite soon after that
> that we had tanks...my Mother used to sneak the water changes as she read
> up on them...we as kids didn't have a clue...as an adult I always kept
> goldfish in tanks - as the years, and education continued these were tanks
> with filters and lights....we bought a "starter kit" from PetSmart (now
> Pets at Home in the UK) and this was what came with it for goldfish....and
> they wouldn't sell me fish either until it was set up and running...
>
> I think it's time you guys stood up and shouted - our stores are regulated
> and licensed....in the UK there is a trade association - OATA - maybe it
> should infiltrate the States (I'm not sure that it hasn't started to) and
> SHOUT OUT LOUD for better service, advice and fish care....
>
> Gill

Never agian shall i complain bout prices of fish here ....
goldfish go for about $1
the most expensive stuff like Lionheads and those (big ones) go for $10
neons and stuff like that 1-2$
rosie barbs/ tigerbarbs for less then $1 about 80c :)

this is when i convert the local currencies ....