water param question

[Billy]

The last couple months, I have been noticing an increasing issue with
my 2 year-old 75g reef. Macro will no longer grow, and my mangrove is
beginning to yellow. Green algaes are growing quicker than normal. My
button polyps are receding. My other corals, inverts and fish seem
fine.

75 gallon with 20g sump.
Approx 600gph
PC lighting
temp 79F
ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5 or less
PH 7.8
PO4 0
11.5 KH
Alk 4.11 meq/l
calcium 400
SG 1.022

I know that the low nitrates likely are keeping the macro down and
starving the mangrove. I'd like some tips on what I should be looking
at, or could do to return my reef to the level it once thrived at.


--
billy

[Jaime R-S]

Hi;
It seems to me that your system is showing signs of isolation.
Yes, if an ecosystem gets isolated it is depleted and no longer
functional.
Is this your case? I don't know. For your readings it seems that your
system is not normal. In any system there is NO2, Ammonia and PO4. You see,
your plants and bacteria need them. You need to feed each organism what
they need if not, they will behave in unexpected ways, plants tend to lose
their coloration, inverts tend to become fragile and fish get sick easily.
In the wild, they just migrate, plants just spread.

jrs
"Billy" > wrote in message
...
> The last couple months, I have been noticing an increasing issue with my 2
> year-old 75g reef. Macro will no longer grow, and my mangrove is beginning
> to yellow. Green algaes are growing quicker than normal. My button polyps
> are receding. My other corals, inverts and fish seem fine.
>
> 75 gallon with 20g sump.
> Approx 600gph
> PC lighting
> temp 79F
> ammonia 0
> Nitrite 0
> Nitrate 5 or less
> PH 7.8
> PO4 0
> 11.5 KH
> Alk 4.11 meq/l
> calcium 400
> SG 1.022
>
> I know that the low nitrates likely are keeping the macro down and
> starving the mangrove. I'd like some tips on what I should be looking at,
> or could do to return my reef to the level it once thrived at.
>
>
> --
> billy
>

[Pszemol]

"Jaime R-S" > wrote in message . ..
> Is this your case? I don't know. For your readings it seems that your
> system is not normal. In any system there is NO2, Ammonia and PO4.

What are you talking about ?

Ammonia and nitrites are in a healthy fish tank at so low
levels they are undetectable with our hobby-grade tests...
And this is how you should read his test results: he
has not run a lab test on his ammonia to detect micrograms
or nano-grams per liter - he has used color test acurate
enough to detect significant levels about 0.25-0.5mg/l and
more. If he is saying he measured "0" he means he has less
than 0.25mg/l ammonia (NH3+NH4+ together) in his water...

Similar situation is with nitrites and phosphates...
"Zero" simply means "less than my test is able to detect" thats all.
His water measurements of ammonia and nitrites are perfectly ok.

[Pszemol]

"Billy" > wrote in message ...
> The last couple months, I have been noticing an increasing issue with
> my 2 year-old 75g reef. Macro will no longer grow, and my mangrove is
> beginning to yellow. Green algaes are growing quicker than normal. My
> button polyps are receding. My other corals, inverts and fish seem
> fine.

What green algae are we talking about ?
Hair-type like Derbesia sp. or Bryopsis sp.?
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=derbesia+sp&spell=1
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=bryopsis+sp
How about your algae grazers ? Do you have enough snails/hermits?

A lot of algae growth means that they have food to grow...
You measure low nutrients simply because you have enough algae
to eat them faster they are produced. But nutrients ARE being
constantly produced in your tank.

Not knowing your tank a lot I would risk a suggestion to purchase
more grazers to cope with green algae outbreak. Use www.reeftopia.com
and order package of reef cleaning crew: 150 micro-blue legged
hermits, couple of dozen small hermits, 100 micro astrea snails
-- they will spread nicelly in your tank and start doing their job
of eating green algae and produce waste in the form of nitrates
and phosphate to fuel your macroalgae and mangrovies.

Action of hermits will produce a lot of algae cuttlings in
the water column so be prepared to use some floss in your filter
to catch them before they reattach themselves.

The reason I recommended small animals is that you can get many
of them for a reasonable price and also being small, they will
have no problem entering every single rock cavity larger animals
have no access to... And do not worry - small animals will grow
on your algae and become larger. Consider purchasing some shells
for growing hermits to switch their homes too.

Depending on how often you do water change you might consider
increasing the rate or amount of water change and usage
of the activated carbon to further remove water coloration...
Outbreaks of green hair algae usually make the water yellow and
full of smelly metabolic byproducts of algae wich are not good...

[Charles]

I would also suggest that phosphate can read ZERO because they are being
used, not because they aren't present. A lot of algae growth would ten
to support this conclusion -- the algae are consuming the PO4 therefore
the test doesn't show it.

Pszemol wrote:
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The last couple months, I have been noticing an increasing issue with
>> my 2 year-old 75g reef. Macro will no longer grow, and my mangrove is
>> beginning to yellow. Green algaes are growing quicker than normal. My
>> button polyps are receding. My other corals, inverts and fish seem fine.
>
> What green algae are we talking about ?
> Hair-type like Derbesia sp. or Bryopsis sp.?
> http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=derbesia+sp&spell=1
> http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=bryopsis+sp
> How about your algae grazers ? Do you have enough snails/hermits?
>
> A lot of algae growth means that they have food to grow...
> You measure low nutrients simply because you have enough algae
> to eat them faster they are produced. But nutrients ARE being
> constantly produced in your tank.
>
> Not knowing your tank a lot I would risk a suggestion to purchase
> more grazers to cope with green algae outbreak. Use www.reeftopia.com
> and order package of reef cleaning crew: 150 micro-blue legged
> hermits, couple of dozen small hermits, 100 micro astrea snails
> -- they will spread nicelly in your tank and start doing their job
> of eating green algae and produce waste in the form of nitrates
> and phosphate to fuel your macroalgae and mangrovies.
>
> Action of hermits will produce a lot of algae cuttlings in
> the water column so be prepared to use some floss in your filter
> to catch them before they reattach themselves.
>
> The reason I recommended small animals is that you can get many
> of them for a reasonable price and also being small, they will
> have no problem entering every single rock cavity larger animals
> have no access to... And do not worry - small animals will grow
> on your algae and become larger. Consider purchasing some shells
> for growing hermits to switch their homes too.
>
> Depending on how often you do water change you might consider
> increasing the rate or amount of water change and usage
> of the activated carbon to further remove water coloration...
> Outbreaks of green hair algae usually make the water yellow and
> full of smelly metabolic byproducts of algae wich are not good...

[Billy]

"Charles" > wrote in message
.. .
>I would also suggest that phosphate can read ZERO because they are
>being used, not because they aren't present. A lot of algae growth
>would ten to support this conclusion -- the algae are consuming the
>PO4 therefore the test doesn't show it.
>


Thank you all. pszemol, I'm a dumbass! Of course! My hermit poulation
has dwindeled to almost nothing, it makes perfect sense that the hair
algae is consuming the nutrients! I'm ordering a batch of blue-legs.
I'm also getting a better overflow so I can install the mag9 I
have sitting here, my current OF box can't handle the flow. Increased
flow should help the overall health of my system, and I'm going to
hunt up the receipt for my lights to determine exactly how old they
are.

billy

[pfishc]

Your salinity is to low it should be 1.025. You should measure 0
nitrate, any measure above 0 is bad. Ph should be above 8

[Billy]

The PH has always been about 7.8\7.9, and I know the salinity is a
bit lower than some say is optimal, but I've always run it a bit low.
Both of these have been this way for 2 years. If there is one thing
I've learned about reefing, there are no absolutes, no hard and fast
rules outside of "you must use water". <g>
As far as the nitrates, I disagree. I've seen FO tanks with
nitrates around 100 that flourished, and reef tanks not much lower
that flourished as well. The low nitrates are part of my issue here,
they're so low my mangrove is starving! Anyone can read a book and
recite 'optimal' water parameters.

--
¼á
"pfishc" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Your salinity is to <sic> low it should be 1.025. You should
> measure 0
> nitrate, any measure above 0 is bad. Ph should be above 8
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Just because you have been keeping your tank ph that low
for 2 years does not mean that it's ok. And this is a reef
newsgroup, ei if you have corals you realy should get
the ph up.

And what kind of water changes are you doing. I am
doubting that you are keeping up in this as well.

What kind of environment does your mangrove have for it's
roots? What kind of lighting does it have?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Billy wrote on 2/6/2006 8:26 AM:
> The PH has always been about 7.8\7.9, and I know the salinity is a
> bit lower than some say is optimal, but I've always run it a bit low.
> Both of these have been this way for 2 years. If there is one thing
> I've learned about reefing, there are no absolutes, no hard and fast
> rules outside of "you must use water". <g>
> As far as the nitrates, I disagree. I've seen FO tanks with
> nitrates around 100 that flourished, and reef tanks not much lower
> that flourished as well. The low nitrates are part of my issue here,
> they're so low my mangrove is starving! Anyone can read a book and
> recite 'optimal' water parameters.
>

[George Patterson]

Jaime R-S wrote:

> In any system there is NO2, Ammonia and PO4.

No, there isn't. These items may be being constantly produced, but in a well
balanced system, various occupants of the tanks are eating them as fast as
they're coming in. Detectible traces of these items are signs of an imbalance.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Billy]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Just because you have been keeping your tank ph that low for 2
> years does not mean that it's ok. And this is a reef newsgroup, ei
> if you have corals you realy should get the ph up.

When I tried, nearly 2 years past, to get the PH up to what I was
told it "just HAD to be at or my tank would end tragically in short
order", it hovered between 8.3 and 7.6, the instability, IMO, is
worse than a 'non optimal' PH. I don't have anything particularly
sensitive to ph, partially due *to* the low ph. Buttons, tube
anemone, colt coral, white sebae, crocea clam. All except the buttons
continue to flourish. I'm fairly certain the anemone is thinking
about splitting. Hope I'm around to see it.


>
> And what kind of water changes are you doing. I am doubting that
> you are keeping up in this as well.

Thank you for your vote of confidence. A 15-20 gallon water change
every other weekend.


>
> What kind of environment does your mangrove have for it's roots?
> What kind of lighting does it have?

Power compact light under the stand. 4-5 inches of live sand.
>


billy

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:04:47 -0800, "Billy" >
wrote:

Hello Billy,

Are you sure that your testkit for pH is accurate ? Try taking a water
sample to your LFS. For 1 test, you should get it for free !!

Regards, Fishnut.

[Pszemol]

"Billy" > wrote in message ...
> When I tried, nearly 2 years past, to get the PH up to what I was
> told it "just HAD to be at or my tank would end tragically in short
> order", it hovered between 8.3 and 7.6, the instability, IMO, is
> worse than a 'non optimal' PH. I don't have anything particularly
> sensitive to ph, partially due *to* the low ph. Buttons, tube
> anemone, colt coral, white sebae, crocea clam. All except the buttons
> continue to flourish. I'm fairly certain the anemone is thinking
> about splitting. Hope I'm around to see it.

How do you measure pH ? How did you try to elevate pH level ?

[Wayne Sallee]

As per hobby test kits they should be zero to almost zero.
Keep in mind that zero on a hobby test kit does not really
mean zero to the infinity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 2/6/2006 4:45 PM:
> Jaime R-S wrote:
>
>> In any system there is NO2, Ammonia and PO4.
>
>
> No, there isn't. These items may be being constantly produced, but in a
> well balanced system, various occupants of the tanks are eating them as
> fast as they're coming in. Detectible traces of these items are signs of
> an imbalance.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[Wayne Sallee]

You could try target feeding the mangrove by sticking some
fish food pellet, or prawn, or something down in the
sand near the roots and see it that helps.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Billy wrote on 2/6/2006 10:04 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Just because you have been keeping your tank ph that low for 2
>>years does not mean that it's ok. And this is a reef newsgroup, ei
>>if you have corals you realy should get the ph up.
>
>
> When I tried, nearly 2 years past, to get the PH up to what I was
> told it "just HAD to be at or my tank would end tragically in short
> order", it hovered between 8.3 and 7.6, the instability, IMO, is
> worse than a 'non optimal' PH. I don't have anything particularly
> sensitive to ph, partially due *to* the low ph. Buttons, tube
> anemone, colt coral, white sebae, crocea clam. All except the buttons
> continue to flourish. I'm fairly certain the anemone is thinking
> about splitting. Hope I'm around to see it.
>
>
>
>>And what kind of water changes are you doing. I am doubting that
>>you are keeping up in this as well.
>
>
> Thank you for your vote of confidence. A 15-20 gallon water change
> every other weekend.
>
>
>
>>What kind of environment does your mangrove have for it's roots?
>>What kind of lighting does it have?
>
>
> Power compact light under the stand. 4-5 inches of live sand.
>
>
>
> billy
>
>

[Billy]

> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:04:47 -0800, "Billy"
> >
> wrote:
>
> Hello Billy,
>
> Are you sure that your testkit for pH is accurate ? Try taking a
> water
> sample to your LFS. For 1 test, you should get it for free !!
>

You were right. I grabbed a new test kit and it read about 8.2.