fishless cycling - pH problem?

[muddyfox]

Hi,

I'm new to this newsgroup, so please redirect me if this question is in
the wrong place.

I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
will not do well in these conditions.

Details:

Small 6 gallon tank
L2000 Ladybird AIr Pump
GPS 370 filter
2 plants
medium well washed gravel + (on day 1) added 2 large handfuls of gravel
from an established tank to seed the bacterial populations.
Tap water treated with de-chlorinator.

Initial water chemistry before start:

pH 8.0 (interestingly the tap water here is pH 7.0 - the tank had sat
for four days before I began. I don't know where this change came
from.)
NH3(Ammonia) 0ppm
NO2 (Nitrite) 0ppm
NO3 (Nitrate) 10ppm

Day 1 - added 4 drops ammonia solution (9.5%) (I suspect this is
Ammonium Hydroxide which would then give me the OH- ions for
alkalinity). NH3 went up to 1.0 ppm

Day 2 - added 5 drops ammonia

pH 8.3
NH3 2.5ppm
NO2 0ppm

Day 3 - added 5 drops ammonia

pH 8.4
NH3 4ppm
NO2 0ppm

So, my questions are:


Is this pH a problem for my fishelss cycle?
If so what can I do about it?
If not, how can I lower it before adding my fish?
Is my main cause of high pH the Hydroxide from the ammonia solution, or
something before that (since my tap water is at 7.0 and my initial
reading was 8.0)?

Any advice, guidance, help would be really appreciated.

Cheers,

Muddy

[NetMax]

"muddyfox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this newsgroup, so please redirect me if this question is in
> the wrong place.

This is r.a.f.MISC, we do everything ! ;~).

> I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
> on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
> today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
> will not do well in these conditions.
>
> Details:
>
> Small 6 gallon tank
> L2000 Ladybird AIr Pump
> GPS 370 filter
> 2 plants
> medium well washed gravel + (on day 1) added 2 large handfuls of gravel
> from an established tank to seed the bacterial populations.
> Tap water treated with de-chlorinator.
>
> Initial water chemistry before start:
>
> pH 8.0 (interestingly the tap water here is pH 7.0 - the tank had sat
> for four days before I began. I don't know where this change came
> from.)

Probably just CO2 outgassing. Pour a glass of water. Check the pH. Let
it sit open on a counter and re-test the water in 24 hours. This might
answer that question, otherwise, could you have minerals leeching calcium
into the water?

> NH3(Ammonia) 0ppm
> NO2 (Nitrite) 0ppm
> NO3 (Nitrate) 10ppm
>
> Day 1 - added 4 drops ammonia solution (9.5%) (I suspect this is
> Ammonium Hydroxide which would then give me the OH- ions for
> alkalinity). NH3 went up to 1.0 ppm
>
> Day 2 - added 5 drops ammonia
>
> pH 8.3
> NH3 2.5ppm
> NO2 0ppm
>
> Day 3 - added 5 drops ammonia
>
> pH 8.4
> NH3 4ppm
> NO2 0ppm
>
> So, my questions are:
>
>
> Is this pH a problem for my fishelss cycle?

I don't think so. The nitrifying bacteria actually prefer alkaline
conditions.

> If so what can I do about it?
> If not, how can I lower it before adding my fish?

Tsk tsk, don't mess with the pH. Remove causes of influence, otherwise
I'd leave it alone.

> Is my main cause of high pH the Hydroxide from the ammonia solution, or
> something before that (since my tap water is at 7.0 and my initial
> reading was 8.0)?
>
> Any advice, guidance, help would be really appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Muddy

That's all the advice I have. Wait for the NO2 and so on.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gail Futoran]

"muddyfox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this newsgroup, so please redirect me if this question is in
> the wrong place.
>
> I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
> on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
> today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
> will not do well in these conditions.
>
> Details:
>
> Small 6 gallon tank
> L2000 Ladybird AIr Pump
> GPS 370 filter
> 2 plants
> medium well washed gravel + (on day 1) added 2 large handfuls of gravel
> from an established tank to seed the bacterial populations.
> Tap water treated with de-chlorinator.
>
> Initial water chemistry before start:
>
> pH 8.0 (interestingly the tap water here is pH 7.0 - the tank had sat
> for four days before I began. I don't know where this change came
> from.)
> NH3(Ammonia) 0ppm
> NO2 (Nitrite) 0ppm
> NO3 (Nitrate) 10ppm

You're already cycled here!

> Day 1 - added 4 drops ammonia solution (9.5%) (I suspect this is
> Ammonium Hydroxide which would then give me the OH- ions for
> alkalinity). NH3 went up to 1.0 ppm

If you use ammonia, you should only use
pure ammonia. Any grocery store should
carry it.

> Day 2 - added 5 drops ammonia
>
> pH 8.3
> NH3 2.5ppm
> NO2 0ppm

What's happening with the Nitrate?

And, your ammonia is rising because you're
adding ammonia to an *already cycled tank*!

STOP IT!

> Day 3 - added 5 drops ammonia
>
> pH 8.4
> NH3 4ppm
> NO2 0ppm
>
> So, my questions are:
>
>
> Is this pH a problem for my fishelss cycle?
> If so what can I do about it?
> If not, how can I lower it before adding my fish?
> Is my main cause of high pH the Hydroxide from the ammonia solution, or
> something before that (since my tap water is at 7.0 and my initial
> reading was 8.0)?
>
> Any advice, guidance, help would be really appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Muddy

I'm not sure why you're adding ammonia to
a small tank that has been seeded from
another tank. Since I fishless cycled my
first tank, I've never had to cycle another -
just used gravel, plants, decorations,
filter media, whatever, to seed the new tank.

Perhaps the high pH is coming from your
ammonia "solution". As noted earlier, you
should be using only pure ammonia.

Meanwhile, why don't you stop adding
ammonia (of any kind) to an apparently
already cycled tank??

Gail

[NetMax]

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> "muddyfox" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm new to this newsgroup, so please redirect me if this question is
>> in
>> the wrong place.
>>
>> I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
>> on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
>> today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen
>> cycle
>> will not do well in these conditions.
>>
>> Details:
>>
>> Small 6 gallon tank
>> L2000 Ladybird AIr Pump
>> GPS 370 filter
>> 2 plants
>> medium well washed gravel + (on day 1) added 2 large handfuls of
>> gravel
>> from an established tank to seed the bacterial populations.
>> Tap water treated with de-chlorinator.
>>
>> Initial water chemistry before start:
>>
>> pH 8.0 (interestingly the tap water here is pH 7.0 - the tank had sat
>> for four days before I began. I don't know where this change came
>> from.)
>> NH3(Ammonia) 0ppm
>> NO2 (Nitrite) 0ppm
>> NO3 (Nitrate) 10ppm
>
> You're already cycled here!

I suspect that it is tap water NO3 which has been measured...

>> Day 1 - added 4 drops ammonia solution (9.5%) (I suspect this is
>> Ammonium Hydroxide which would then give me the OH- ions for
>> alkalinity). NH3 went up to 1.0 ppm
>
> If you use ammonia, you should only use
> pure ammonia. Any grocery store should
> carry it.
>
>> Day 2 - added 5 drops ammonia
>>
>> pH 8.3
>> NH3 2.5ppm
>> NO2 0ppm
>
> What's happening with the Nitrate?

.... or else the NH3

> And, your ammonia is rising because you're
> adding ammonia to an *already cycled tank*!
>
> STOP IT!
>
>> Day 3 - added 5 drops ammonia
>>
>> pH 8.4
>> NH3 4ppm
>> NO2 0ppm

....would be NO2 (eventually)

>> So, my questions are:
>>
>>
>> Is this pH a problem for my fishelss cycle?
>> If so what can I do about it?
>> If not, how can I lower it before adding my fish?
>> Is my main cause of high pH the Hydroxide from the ammonia solution,
>> or
>> something before that (since my tap water is at 7.0 and my initial
>> reading was 8.0)?
>>
>> Any advice, guidance, help would be really appreciated.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Muddy
>
> I'm not sure why you're adding ammonia to
> a small tank that has been seeded from
> another tank. Since I fishless cycled my
> first tank, I've never had to cycle another -
> just used gravel, plants, decorations,
> filter media, whatever, to seed the new tank.
>
> Perhaps the high pH is coming from your
> ammonia "solution". As noted earlier, you
> should be using only pure ammonia.
>
> Meanwhile, why don't you stop adding
> ammonia (of any kind) to an apparently
> already cycled tank??


Do you agree, Gail?
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Gail
>

[fish lover]

Did you check your gravel? They may increase your PH level. In fact,
you should check any deco in your tank to make sure they do not react
to acid. Otherwise, they will increase your PH level.

Also, tab water in most case increase PH level after air out the CO2
in a day or two. My tap water comes out at 7.5, 24 hours later it goes
to 8.0, In day two, it goes up to 8.3. A simple way to test this is to
have two plastic cups, one filled with tab water, one with 1/2 gravel
and 1/2 tap water. Test both right after fill, then in 6 hours, then
in 24 hours, then in 48 hours. Recording down all readings. That will
give you a better picture how's the water in your area, also how it
react to your gravel.

Let use know in two days then we can help you.



>Hi,
>
>I'm new to this newsgroup, so please redirect me if this question is in
>the wrong place.
>
>I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
>on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
>today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
>will not do well in these conditions.
>
>Details:
>
>Small 6 gallon tank
>L2000 Ladybird AIr Pump
>GPS 370 filter
>2 plants
>medium well washed gravel + (on day 1) added 2 large handfuls of gravel
>from an established tank to seed the bacterial populations.
>Tap water treated with de-chlorinator.
>
>Initial water chemistry before start:
>
>pH 8.0 (interestingly the tap water here is pH 7.0 - the tank had sat
>for four days before I began. I don't know where this change came
>from.)
>NH3(Ammonia) 0ppm
>NO2 (Nitrite) 0ppm
>NO3 (Nitrate) 10ppm
>
>Day 1 - added 4 drops ammonia solution (9.5%) (I suspect this is
>Ammonium Hydroxide which would then give me the OH- ions for
>alkalinity). NH3 went up to 1.0 ppm
>
>Day 2 - added 5 drops ammonia
>
>pH 8.3
>NH3 2.5ppm
>NO2 0ppm
>
>Day 3 - added 5 drops ammonia
>
>pH 8.4
>NH3 4ppm
>NO2 0ppm
>
>So, my questions are:
>
>
>Is this pH a problem for my fishelss cycle?
>If so what can I do about it?
>If not, how can I lower it before adding my fish?
>Is my main cause of high pH the Hydroxide from the ammonia solution, or
>something before that (since my tap water is at 7.0 and my initial
>reading was 8.0)?
>
>Any advice, guidance, help would be really appreciated.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Muddy

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "muddyfox" > Spake Unto All:

>I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
>on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
>today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
>will not do well in these conditions.

Ammonia has a pH of about 10-11 so it's not all that surprising that
adding pure ammonia causes pH to rise.
pH 8.3 is also the equilibrium point for hard water, so if your water
has high KH that's the pH you're going to have when the CO2 in the
water is in equilibrium with the CO2 of the atmosphere.

That said, a pH of 8.4 wont inconvenience your de/nitrifying bacteria
in the slightest. You don't want the pH to go over 9.5, though.

I see others have suggested the rising pH may be due to
limestone-containing sediment in your tank, but that'll not be the
case - one can't raise the pH of a tank to 8.3 with limestone. I wish
one could, but the equilibrium point will be in the region of 7.5-7.7,
because the limestone dissolves so slowly.

Also, like others have noted, your tank is already cycled, as ammonia
& nitrite is zero, and nitrate is 30 ppm.

On a sidenote, using pure ammonia isn't really necessary, one can also
simply feed the tank sparingly (without any fish being in it). The
food will rot & provide ammonium for the de/nitrifying bacteria. I
don't know why so many seem to prefer to use ammonia; possibly it
seems cleaner & more controlled.

[muddyfox]

Hi Gail,

Thanks for your post. Sadly I don't think my tank is cycled :( ,
although I can see why it looks that way with NH3 at zero, NO2 at zero
and NO3 at 10ppm at the start. As NetMax said - it's the tap water. I
wasn't sure myself so I tested it and it's bang on 10ppm straight from
the tap - same as the tank.

I didn't realise, though, that I didn't have to do a cycle if I seed
the tank from an established one. As you can see I'm a bit new to
this. I shall probably continue now I've started but will bear your
advice in mind for next time.

Many thanks!

[muddyfox]

Hi,

I think you're rigth about the tap water - I tested it and it's just
the same as the tank.

Thanks!

[muddyfox]

Thanks NetMax - that's really useful info. I will wait. I spoke to my
local fish shop and they see the same thing with the tap water around
here. Their pH starts at around 7.0 and goes up to just over 8 after a
few days. CO2 outgassing makes sense as the reason too. I will follow
your advice about not messing with the pH, apart from a 50% water
change at the end of the cycle to get rid of excess NO3.

Cheers!

[muddyfox]

Hi fish lover,

Interesting about the gravel - it would never have occurred to me. I
gave it a thorough wash and popped it in. I will do the test you
suggest and post the results in a couple of days.

Thanks!

[muddyfox]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly "muddyfox" > Spake Unto All:
>
> >I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
> >on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
> >today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
> >will not do well in these conditions.
>
> Ammonia has a pH of about 10-11 so it's not all that surprising that
> adding pure ammonia causes pH to rise.
> pH 8.3 is also the equilibrium point for hard water, so if your water
> has high KH that's the pH you're going to have when the CO2 in the
> water is in equilibrium with the CO2 of the atmosphere.

Yes the water is very hard around here and 8.3 is about where the tanks
are at my local fish shop so that all fits perfectly.



>
> That said, a pH of 8.4 wont inconvenience your de/nitrifying bacteria
> in the slightest. You don't want the pH to go over 9.5, though.

That's a real relief to know. I will keep an eye on it though, to
check it doesn't go up to 9.5.

>
> I see others have suggested the rising pH may be due to
> limestone-containing sediment in your tank, but that'll not be the
> case - one can't raise the pH of a tank to 8.3 with limestone. I wish
> one could, but the equilibrium point will be in the region of 7.5-7.7,
> because the limestone dissolves so slowly.
>
> Also, like others have noted, your tank is already cycled, as ammonia
> & nitrite is zero, and nitrate is 30 ppm.

Unfortunately the nitrate I have comes directly from the tap water
rather than a completed cycle, in fact I think it's just over the level
which is regarded as safe in drinking water so I have reported it to
the water quality dept in our local water company.


>
> On a sidenote, using pure ammonia isn't really necessary, one can also
> simply feed the tank sparingly (without any fish being in it). The
> food will rot & provide ammonium for the de/nitrifying bacteria. I
> don't know why so many seem to prefer to use ammonia; possibly it
> seems cleaner & more controlled.


Well I wanted to do it this way originally because it seemed more
natural and I wouldn't then have to muck about with ammonia but three
things put me off.

One was that someone said (somewhere on the internet) that this can
give artificially high levels of phosphate which, apparently, is bad.

Another was that I didn't really know how much food to give or what to
give. (Some folk put lumps of raw fish in the tank, others high
protien solid food and others flake.

Finally, people seemed to say different things about cleaning the tank,
some said syphon off the food every day, some said leave it all there
and other folk said everything else in between! I couldn't get a clear
protocol so I went for the ammonia in the end.

You sound very experienced. I would still prefer to use fish food so
if you have a clear way of doing this I'd love to hear it.

Many, many thanks for your very helpful advice and insight,

Muddy

[Gail Futoran]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "muddyfox" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm new to this newsgroup, so please redirect me if this question is in
>>> the wrong place.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to cycle my new aquarium using Ammonia. Things seem to be
>>> on track except that the pH is climbing to very high levels (pH 8.4
>>> today) and I'm concerned that the bacteria I need for my nitrogen cycle
>>> will not do well in these conditions.
>>>
>>> Details:
>>>
>>> Small 6 gallon tank
>>> L2000 Ladybird AIr Pump
>>> GPS 370 filter
>>> 2 plants
>>> medium well washed gravel + (on day 1) added 2 large handfuls of gravel
>>> from an established tank to seed the bacterial populations.
>>> Tap water treated with de-chlorinator.
>>>
>>> Initial water chemistry before start:
>>>
>>> pH 8.0 (interestingly the tap water here is pH 7.0 - the tank had sat
>>> for four days before I began. I don't know where this change came
>>> from.)
>>> NH3(Ammonia) 0ppm
>>> NO2 (Nitrite) 0ppm
>>> NO3 (Nitrate) 10ppm
>>
>> You're already cycled here!
>
> I suspect that it is tap water NO3 which has been measured...
>
>>> Day 1 - added 4 drops ammonia solution (9.5%) (I suspect this is
>>> Ammonium Hydroxide which would then give me the OH- ions for
>>> alkalinity). NH3 went up to 1.0 ppm
>>
>> If you use ammonia, you should only use
>> pure ammonia. Any grocery store should
>> carry it.
>>
>>> Day 2 - added 5 drops ammonia
>>>
>>> pH 8.3
>>> NH3 2.5ppm
>>> NO2 0ppm
>>
>> What's happening with the Nitrate?
>
> ... or else the NH3
>
>> And, your ammonia is rising because you're
>> adding ammonia to an *already cycled tank*!
>>
>> STOP IT!
>>
>>> Day 3 - added 5 drops ammonia
>>>
>>> pH 8.4
>>> NH3 4ppm
>>> NO2 0ppm
>
> ...would be NO2 (eventually)
>
>>> So, my questions are:
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this pH a problem for my fishelss cycle?
>>> If so what can I do about it?
>>> If not, how can I lower it before adding my fish?
>>> Is my main cause of high pH the Hydroxide from the ammonia solution, or
>>> something before that (since my tap water is at 7.0 and my initial
>>> reading was 8.0)?
>>>
>>> Any advice, guidance, help would be really appreciated.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Muddy
>>
>> I'm not sure why you're adding ammonia to
>> a small tank that has been seeded from
>> another tank. Since I fishless cycled my
>> first tank, I've never had to cycle another -
>> just used gravel, plants, decorations,
>> filter media, whatever, to seed the new tank.
>>
>> Perhaps the high pH is coming from your
>> ammonia "solution". As noted earlier, you
>> should be using only pure ammonia.
>>
>> Meanwhile, why don't you stop adding
>> ammonia (of any kind) to an apparently
>> already cycled tank??
>
>
> Do you agree, Gail?
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>> Gail

I still have some questions but reading the
rest of the thread I believe the OP now
has things under control.

That said, I defer to your judgment, NetMax. :)

Gail

[muddyfox]

Hi All,

Thanks very much for all your messages. You've really helped me out.
The pH fell back to 8.3 tonight and the tank began to cycle - Nitrite
at 0.50 ppm!!!



Really appreciate all your help,

Cheers,

Muddy