Stance on medicating asymptomatic fish?

[Erin (Eugene)]

I know this is a controversial topic....

Had three cories die in a three month span (one before Thanksgiving,
one before Christmas, one about a week ago) after a bizarre
indetermined illness. Symptoms: lethargy, possible swim bladder problem
on the second one, and possibly POSSIBLY slightly wasted stomachs.
Water consistently tests as safe in all parameters.

The whole time, they shared the tank with a zebra loach and two neons,
none of which appear to have any symptoms. What do you think? Should I
treat the loach prophylactically with a gel food medicated to treat
internal parasites? I'm very attached to him. Or, is it not right to
treat an animal who shows no symptoms? Could treatment possibly cause
him harm?

Thanks in advance for any opinions. Best, Erin.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Erin (Eugene)" > Spake Unto All:

>indetermined illness. Symptoms: lethargy, possible swim bladder problem
>on the second one, and possibly POSSIBLY slightly wasted stomachs.
>Water consistently tests as safe in all parameters.

"Swim bladder problems" almost exclusively affect fancy goldfish and
to a lesser degree other fish with similarly highly modified body
shape (e.g. balloon mollies), and cories in any case don't have a
swimbladder, so your fish possibly suffered from some sort of
neurological issue.
However, if you mean it lost its equilibrium towards the end, it might
simply be a secondary result of cascading organ failure, much like a
dying human might be unable to stand up.

>The whole time, they shared the tank with a zebra loach and two neons,
>none of which appear to have any symptoms. What do you think? Should I
>treat the loach prophylactically with a gel food medicated to treat
>internal parasites?

Thing is, none of the symptoms your cories had are exclusively
indicative of internal parasites. Lethargy and loss of equilibrium
occurs with most diseases & poisonings. The only symptom you've given
which doesn't simply mean that the fish is poorly is the possibly
slightly wasted stomachs, and that's a symptom of a wide range of
ills, from simple malnutrition to fish tuberculosis.

>Or, is it not right to
>treat an animal who shows no symptoms?

I don't know what's *right*, but IMO the decision to medicate or not
depends on whether the medication is a) likely to actually do any
good, b) likely to cause immunity to the medication in surviving
pathogens, and c) likely to kill off your filter bacteria or have
other adverse effects (ie kill your plants).

The main problem here is a). As you really have no idea what killed
your cories, what are you going to medicate against? Medicating
blindly isn't likely to do any good. My suggestion would be to add
some salt, up to a salinity of about 1-2 ppt (one heaping table spoon
of table salt per 10-20 liters of water). Salt -and it really doesn't
matter at all if it's iodized or not- isn't a miracle cure, but it
detoxifies some poisons (notably nitrite) and makes life difficult for
some pathogens, and at these low salinities it doesn't really have any
significant drawbacks (except that it may kill sensitive plants). That
makes it suitable as a prophylactic.

> Could treatment possibly cause him harm?

Yes, of course, depending on what the treatment actually is. Pretty
much all treatments involves a risk to the fish, even if small.

[Altum]

I find that diseases often stick to a single species or closely related
fish so I don't treat other fish in a tank. YMMV.

[Erin (Eugene)]

<<"Swim bladder problems" almost exclusively affect fancy goldfish and
to a lesser degree other fish with similarly highly modified body shape
(e.g. balloon mollies), and cories in any case don't have a
swimbladder, so your fish possibly suffered from some sort of
neurological issue.
However, if you mean it lost its equilibrium towards the end, it might
simply be a secondary result of cascading organ failure, much like a
dying human might be unable to stand up. >>

Wow--I had no idea cories didn't have swim bladders. I'm floored! Guess
all those peas were a waste of time. Anyway, the fish would settle on
the substrate per usual, and then her front end would slowly but surely
drift up so that she was standing on her tail. Very disconcerting to
watch. The strange thing is that symptoms came and went, and she lived
for quite a few weeks after that.

<<The only symptom you've given which doesn't simply mean that the fish
is poorly is the possibly slightly wasted stomachs, and that's a
symptom of a wide range of ills, from simple malnutrition to fish
tuberculosis. >>

And that could've been in my head, too. I wasn't sure if I were seeing
it.

Thanks for all the advice, especially about the salt. Forgive my
ignorance, but I am new to scaleless fish and botias...will that salt
be safe for him as he is a loach?

This whole thing is a bummer. He looks very lonely in there, but I'm
not going to get any other loaches (or any other fish at all) until I
figure out what the cory problem is.

[Erin (Eugene)]

Interesting...I'd never heard of that, but so far that has been my
experience as well. Thanks a bunch!

[Erin (Eugene)]

Altum wrote:
> I find that diseases often stick to a single species or closely related
> fish so I don't treat other fish in a tank. YMMV.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of that, but so far, that has been my
experience as well as we've lost only cories.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Erin (Eugene) > wrote:
>I know this is a controversial topic....
>
>Had three cories die in a three month span (one before Thanksgiving,
>one before Christmas, one about a week ago) after a bizarre
>indetermined illness. Symptoms: lethargy, possible swim bladder problem
>on the second one, and possibly POSSIBLY slightly wasted stomachs.
>Water consistently tests as safe in all parameters.

Any idea if they're wild or tank raised? Wild fish can
easily have internal parasites. Tank raised less so.

I wouldn't treat any fish that did not show symptoms.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Erin (Eugene)]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> Any idea if they're wild or tank raised? Wild fish can
> easily have internal parasites. Tank raised less so.
>
> I wouldn't treat any fish that did not show symptoms.

Hi Richard--I'm not sure about whether or not they were tank-raised. I
did think of something else, though. All the cories we had for a time
with an apple snail. The other fish were not in that tank. I heard that
some parasites can use apple snails as intermediate hosts...perhaps
that's our answer?

Oh well. Thanks for your advice about not medicating! At this point I'm
just planning on no medication, but some salt (per the advice above).

Best,
~Erin

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
Erin (Eugene) > wrote:
>
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> Any idea if they're wild or tank raised? Wild fish can
>> easily have internal parasites. Tank raised less so.
>>
>> I wouldn't treat any fish that did not show symptoms.
>
>Hi Richard--I'm not sure about whether or not they were tank-raised. I
>did think of something else, though. All the cories we had for a time
>with an apple snail. The other fish were not in that tank. I heard that
>some parasites can use apple snails as intermediate hosts...perhaps
>that's our answer?

That's the dreaded African snail *Planorbis* which can carry the
billharzia pathogen. You won't see that. I've never heard of
something that uses apple snails as an intermediate host for
a fish pathogen.

>Oh well. Thanks for your advice about not medicating! At this point I'm
>just planning on no medication, but some salt (per the advice above).

Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.

I *think* all the common cories (paleatus, aneaus etc) are tank bred
while the exocit (ie, expensive) ones are wild caught. I could be
wrong about this distinction though.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Erin (Eugene)]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> >Hi Richard--I'm not sure about whether or not they were tank-raised. I
> >did think of something else, though. All the cories we had for a time
> >with an apple snail. The other fish were not in that tank. I heard that
> >some parasites can use apple snails as intermediate hosts...perhaps
> >that's our answer?
>
> That's the dreaded African snail *Planorbis* which can carry the
> billharzia pathogen. You won't see that. I've never heard of
> something that uses apple snails as an intermediate host for
> a fish pathogen.

Ah. Well, back to the drawing board!

> Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.

Hrm. There seems to be some discord on this issue. First of all, the
cories have all three died, so I no longer have them (and I have little
desire to add anything until this tank stays disease-free for awhile).
Every source seems to agree that cories and salt do not mix. But the
botia remains and with him the debate...

I have seen stated all around the web, including in this thread here, a
suggestion that salt should be OK. loaches.com also says salt should be
OK (for clowns--the zebra loach I have, I assume, is similar). However,
you are certainly not the only person to tell me otherwise.

I'm in a quandry. Has anyone had any direct experience using salt with
botias?

> I *think* all the common cories (paleatus, aneaus etc) are tank bred
> while the exocit (ie, expensive) ones are wild caught. I could be
> wrong about this distinction though.

The first two that died were paleatus (paleati?), and the third was a
Sterba's. I'm not sure if the latter is considered exotic or not....I
think it was slightly more expensive than the other two, but I can't
recall.

Thanks for your continued attention. Any more advice, keep it comin!

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>>Oh well. Thanks for your advice about not medicating! At this point I'm
>>just planning on no medication, but some salt (per the advice above).
>
>Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.

That is not, in fact, true. I've once even held a sick paleatus in a
brackish water tank for four months (and it recovered fully).

It is however true that scaleless fish have a thinner barrier against
chemicals in the water, so slower acclimatization is generally a good
idea.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Erin (Eugene)" > Spake Unto All:

>Wow--I had no idea cories didn't have swim bladders. I'm floored!

Oh yes. That's why they do these quick darting up to the surface to
swallow air - they use air in a pocket in their intestine to balance
their buoyancy instead of a swim bladder. They also get some of their
oxygen from that swallowed air, so trips to the surface becomes more
frequent if dissolved oxygen levels drop.

>Guess
>all those peas were a waste of time.

Huh?

>Anyway, the fish would settle on
>the substrate per usual, and then her front end would slowly but surely
>drift up so that she was standing on her tail.

That doesn't sound like the typical "near death" loss of equilibrium,
where the fish is panting and panicked and unable to right itself (or
avoid filter intakes), but more like the fish may really have had some
sort of neurological or hereditary disorder, or perhaps an obstruction
in the intestine - when cories gulp too much air they normally simply
'burp' up a bubble.

>Thanks for all the advice, especially about the salt. Forgive my
>ignorance, but I am new to scaleless fish and botias...will that salt
>be safe for him as he is a loach?

I don't know any fish which has problems with low levels of salt, not
even cories, which are otherwise said to be sensitive to salt. Botias
are famously sensitive to many kinds of medication, and I've never
personally tried salt with a Botia, but I wouldn't expect them to have
problems with 1-2 ppt salinity either.

Just don't go crazy with the salt with cories and botias and I'd say
you'll be fine.

[Gill Passman]

Erin (Eugene) wrote:
> Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>
>>>Hi Richard--I'm not sure about whether or not they were tank-raised. I
>>>did think of something else, though. All the cories we had for a time
>>>with an apple snail. The other fish were not in that tank. I heard that
>>>some parasites can use apple snails as intermediate hosts...perhaps
>>>that's our answer?
>>
>>That's the dreaded African snail *Planorbis* which can carry the
>>billharzia pathogen. You won't see that. I've never heard of
>>something that uses apple snails as an intermediate host for
>>a fish pathogen.
>
>
> Ah. Well, back to the drawing board!
>
>
>>Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.
>
>
> Hrm. There seems to be some discord on this issue. First of all, the
> cories have all three died, so I no longer have them (and I have little
> desire to add anything until this tank stays disease-free for awhile).
> Every source seems to agree that cories and salt do not mix. But the
> botia remains and with him the debate...
>
> I have seen stated all around the web, including in this thread here, a
> suggestion that salt should be OK. loaches.com also says salt should be
> OK (for clowns--the zebra loach I have, I assume, is similar). However,
> you are certainly not the only person to tell me otherwise.
>
> I'm in a quandry. Has anyone had any direct experience using salt with
> botias?
>
>
>>I *think* all the common cories (paleatus, aneaus etc) are tank bred
>>while the exocit (ie, expensive) ones are wild caught. I could be
>>wrong about this distinction though.
>
>
> The first two that died were paleatus (paleati?), and the third was a
> Sterba's. I'm not sure if the latter is considered exotic or not....I
> think it was slightly more expensive than the other two, but I can't
> recall.
>
> Thanks for your continued attention. Any more advice, keep it comin!
>
>
>>--
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>>Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>>1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
>>633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
>
>

I've used a very low level salt concentration with Clown Loaches to
attempt to treat Ich when the meds available over here haven't worked -
didn't notice any problems but I will stress it was very low - 1 tsp per
gall of replaced water - water changes of 20% daily to bring it up very
slowly - and I didn't use it long term (1 week max) - then water changes
to dilute it out again...

YMMV
Gill

[Gill Passman]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Erin (Eugene) wrote:
>
>> Richard Sexton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Hi Richard--I'm not sure about whether or not they were tank-raised. I
>>>> did think of something else, though. All the cories we had for a time
>>>> with an apple snail. The other fish were not in that tank. I heard that
>>>> some parasites can use apple snails as intermediate hosts...perhaps
>>>> that's our answer?
>>>
>>>
>>> That's the dreaded African snail *Planorbis* which can carry the
>>> billharzia pathogen. You won't see that. I've never heard of
>>> something that uses apple snails as an intermediate host for
>>> a fish pathogen.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ah. Well, back to the drawing board!
>>
>>
>>> Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hrm. There seems to be some discord on this issue. First of all, the
>> cories have all three died, so I no longer have them (and I have little
>> desire to add anything until this tank stays disease-free for awhile).
>> Every source seems to agree that cories and salt do not mix. But the
>> botia remains and with him the debate...
>>
>> I have seen stated all around the web, including in this thread here, a
>> suggestion that salt should be OK. loaches.com also says salt should be
>> OK (for clowns--the zebra loach I have, I assume, is similar). However,
>> you are certainly not the only person to tell me otherwise.
>>
>> I'm in a quandry. Has anyone had any direct experience using salt with
>> botias?
>>
>>
>>> I *think* all the common cories (paleatus, aneaus etc) are tank bred
>>> while the exocit (ie, expensive) ones are wild caught. I could be
>>> wrong about this distinction though.
>>
>>
>>
>> The first two that died were paleatus (paleati?), and the third was a
>> Sterba's. I'm not sure if the latter is considered exotic or not....I
>> think it was slightly more expensive than the other two, but I can't
>> recall.
>>
>> Thanks for your continued attention. Any more advice, keep it comin!
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>>> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
>>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
>>
>>
>>
>
> I've used a very low level salt concentration with Clown Loaches to
> attempt to treat Ich when the meds available over here haven't worked -
> didn't notice any problems but I will stress it was very low - 1 tsp per
> gall of replaced water - water changes of 20% daily to bring it up very
> slowly - and I didn't use it long term (1 week max) - then water changes
> to dilute it out again...
>
> YMMV
> Gill

Sorry, forgot to add one other thought...I'm not sure how the Apple
Snail would cope with salt but would probably guess it is a no, no

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

>> Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.
>
>Hrm. There seems to be some discord on this issue. First of all, the
>cories have all three died, so I no longer have them (and I have little
>desire to add anything until this tank stays disease-free for awhile).
>Every source seems to agree that cories and salt do not mix. But the
>botia remains and with him the debate...
>
>I have seen stated all around the web, including in this thread here, a
>suggestion that salt should be OK. loaches.com also says salt should be
>OK (for clowns--the zebra loach I have, I assume, is similar). However,
>you are certainly not the only person to tell me otherwise.


I've killed a few cories with salt, ut hve never kept loches and
salt; every aquarium medication I've seen tht had salt in it
says "use half strength on scalleless fishes like cafish
and loached". Untergasser also says to be very careful
with dyes like methylene blue and malachite green as
scaleless fish absorb them directly (and die)"

>> I *think* all the common cories (paleatus, aneaus etc) are tank bred
>> while the exocit (ie, expensive) ones are wild caught. I could be
>> wrong about this distinction though.
>
>The first two that died were paleatus (paleati?), and the third was a
>Sterba's. I'm not sure if the latter is considered exotic or not....I
>think it was slightly more expensive than the other two, but I can't
>recall.

Sterbai will be wild caught. Paleatus may or may not be.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mean_Chlorine > wrote:
>Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:
>
>>>Oh well. Thanks for your advice about not medicating! At this point I'm
>>>just planning on no medication, but some salt (per the advice above).
>>
>>Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.
>
>That is not, in fact, true. I've once even held a sick paleatus in a
>brackish water tank for four months (and it recovered fully).

Wow.

>It is however true that scaleless fish have a thinner barrier against
>chemicals in the water, so slower acclimatization is generally a good
>idea.

That's probbaly it then. Intersting.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Erin (Eugene)" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> >Hi Richard--I'm not sure about whether or not they were tank-raised. I
>> >did think of something else, though. All the cories we had for a time
>> >with an apple snail. The other fish were not in that tank. I heard that
>> >some parasites can use apple snails as intermediate hosts...perhaps
>> >that's our answer?
>>
>> That's the dreaded African snail *Planorbis* which can carry the
>> billharzia pathogen. You won't see that. I've never heard of
>> something that uses apple snails as an intermediate host for
>> a fish pathogen.
>
> Ah. Well, back to the drawing board!
>
>> Uh, cories and other scaleless fish cannot tolerate salt.
>
> Hrm. There seems to be some discord on this issue. First of all, the
> cories have all three died, so I no longer have them (and I have little
> desire to add anything until this tank stays disease-free for awhile).
> Every source seems to agree that cories and salt do not mix. But the
> botia remains and with him the debate...
>
> I have seen stated all around the web, including in this thread here, a
> suggestion that salt should be OK. loaches.com also says salt should be
> OK (for clowns--the zebra loach I have, I assume, is similar). However,
> you are certainly not the only person to tell me otherwise.
>
> I'm in a quandry. Has anyone had any direct experience using salt with
> botias?


I don't think salt toxicity by concentration is quantifiable by species. A
significant variable is the rate at which the salinity is increased, and
this (I think) is applicable to all non-brackish fishes (brackish water
fishes by their very nature, are accustomed to travelling between very
different levels of salinity, and non-brackish in-land riverine fish like
corys would not).

This is why I try to remember to dose medications incrementally (except
antibiotics). Anything which stains (meth.blue, malachite green etc) or
changes the viscosity (salt, Melafix, Pimafix etc) should be changed at a
reasonably gradual rate. (jmo)
--
www.NetMax.tk

<snip>

[Erin (Eugene)]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly "Erin (Eugene)" > Spake Unto All:

> >Guess
> >all those peas were a waste of time.
>
> Huh?

Well, I had heard that with swim bladder problems caused by
constipation due to overfeeding/dry food/whatever, feeding the fish
boiled peas, removed from the shell, was a simple treatment. So after
seeing the fish with what I (wrongly, it appears) assumed was a swim
bladder problem, I fed peas almost exclusively for about a week.

> That doesn't sound like the typical "near death" loss of equilibrium,
> where the fish is panting and panicked and unable to right itself (or
> avoid filter intakes), but more like the fish may really have had some
> sort of neurological or hereditary disorder, or perhaps an obstruction
> in the intestine - when cories gulp too much air they normally simply
> 'burp' up a bubble.

Yeah, I'm not sure...it was alarming, whatever it was. The weirdest
thing was that as I said, that particular "tail-standing" condition
would come and go in a matter of hours.

> I don't know any fish which has problems with low levels of salt, not
> even cories, which are otherwise said to be sensitive to salt. Botias
> are famously sensitive to many kinds of medication, and I've never
> personally tried salt with a Botia, but I wouldn't expect them to have
> problems with 1-2 ppt salinity either.

OK, awesome. Thanks....I'll have to give this a shot.

> Just don't go crazy with the salt with cories and botias and I'd say
> you'll be fine.

[Erin (Eugene)]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> Sorry, forgot to add one other thought...I'm not sure how the Apple
> Snail would cope with salt but would probably guess it is a no, no
>
> Gill

Thanks Gill...the crazy thing is we fell in love with the darned snail
after buying it almost as an afterthought. He now has his own home in a
separate, small five gal, and he also has a buddy to live with. "The
snail tank" will not get any salt. :-)

I have heard that even small loaches will kill large apple snails by
using their buck teeth to pull them out of their shell. I'm not sure
how true this is but not interested in testing the theory.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Erin (Eugene)" > Spake Unto All:

>Well, I had heard that with swim bladder problems caused by
>constipation due to overfeeding/dry food/whatever, feeding the fish
>boiled peas, removed from the shell, was a simple treatment. So after
>seeing the fish with what I (wrongly, it appears) assumed was a swim
>bladder problem, I fed peas almost exclusively for about a week.

Never heard of that one before. However, peas are good feed, and if
your fish accept it you may well continue giving them peas now and
then.

>Yeah, I'm not sure...it was alarming, whatever it was. The weirdest
>thing was that as I said, that particular "tail-standing" condition
>would come and go in a matter of hours.

Bizarre. You didn't feed your fish floating pellets, by any chance?
Neon tetras, being the gluttons they are, frequently gulp down dry
food before it's had a chance to soak, and end up having to struggle
to avoid floating to the surface due to the air in the food - could
something like that be the case with that cory?

>> personally tried salt with a Botia, but I wouldn't expect them to have
>> problems with 1-2 ppt salinity either.
>
>OK, awesome. Thanks....I'll have to give this a shot.

I must have missed it, but someone mentioned you had apple snails -
that person is right that apple snails are very sensitive to salt, and
will likely not survive even 1-2 ppt.