All fish dying, unable to diagnose disease [long]

[Matt Mills]

Hi,

The beginning of my story goes back a few months now. I have a Jewel Rio
180 tank fully established and fully stocked. All of a sudden, fish
started going missing. A guppy here and there, the odd cardinal tetra or
aquatic frog. Things like that. Not often, and not at regular intervals,
but every now and again we would just not be able to find one particular
fish.

This increased over time, and fish were unfortunately dying before our
eyes. The first time I noticed any problem cosmetically with a fish, was
when we bought some new dwarf rainbow fish. Almost immediately after
getting them back to our tank from the store, one of them had a cloudy
area covering its eye. This spread over the whole half of his face, and
eventually claimed his life. Shortly later, another of the dwarf rainbow
fish died, with no symptoms before I found his corpse being gorged upon
by our shrimps.

We've lost a whole bunch of fish and are now down to only a few fish in
the tank (10-15 down from about 40). One particular zebra danio showed
like a rectangular cloudy patch on his side. It was as if his stripes
had lost all colour in this perfect rectangle. I treated the tank with
Melafix and removed the carbon sponge from the tank. No fish died during
the 7 day treatment, but once it was complete, more fish started dying
again. We lost all 4 dwarf gourami. One in particular looked like his
lips swelled up, and then he just died. Another was hanging around the
bottom of the tank not doing much, then started drifting around with the
current and eventually passed.

As a last resort, I went back to the LFS and picked up some Interpet 8
Angi Fungus & Finrot. This is a one-dose treatment. We treated the tank
(again, removing the carbon sponge), and another cardinal tetra died on
the second day of treatment. The bottom half of his tail fin was missing
and he had the same faded rectangular patch as the zebra danio (it even
made his lightning stripe faded). He was so weak that he had been drawn
up to the water inlet at the top of the filter box, and several other
dying/dead fish have been found here. Simply turning off the powerhead
allows the fish to be released, but they do not have the strength to
swim properly so I euthenaise in most cases. However, no more fish died
after this one until today (1 week and 2 days later with no dead fish).
The one that died today was another cardinal tetra which also got sucked
up to the inlet, but the whole back half of his body was missing and he
was still alive. From looking at him, he looked slightly faded in places
too.

I am posting here as a last resort because I simply do not know what
else to try. As far as I can see, the two different medication types
that I have used cover a broad range of diseases.

We do fortnightly water changes of about 20%, feeding daily on flakes
and occasional dried bloodworms. Our LFS have tested our water and told
us that it is in good shape.

We have 3 amano shrimp and a suckermouth catfish, all of which seem to
be healthy and fine.

All comments welcome, I'm desperate now! TIA.

--
Matt

[NetMax]

"Matt Mills" > wrote in message
. 26.234...
> Hi,
>
> The beginning of my story goes back a few months now. I have a Jewel
> Rio
> 180 tank fully established and fully stocked. All of a sudden, fish
> started going missing. A guppy here and there, the odd cardinal tetra
> or
> aquatic frog. Things like that. Not often, and not at regular
> intervals,
> but every now and again we would just not be able to find one
> particular
> fish.
>
> This increased over time, and fish were unfortunately dying before our
> eyes. The first time I noticed any problem cosmetically with a fish,
> was
> when we bought some new dwarf rainbow fish. Almost immediately after
> getting them back to our tank from the store, one of them had a cloudy
> area covering its eye. This spread over the whole half of his face, and
> eventually claimed his life. Shortly later, another of the dwarf
> rainbow
> fish died, with no symptoms before I found his corpse being gorged upon
> by our shrimps.
>
> We've lost a whole bunch of fish and are now down to only a few fish in
> the tank (10-15 down from about 40). One particular zebra danio showed
> like a rectangular cloudy patch on his side. It was as if his stripes
> had lost all colour in this perfect rectangle. I treated the tank with
> Melafix and removed the carbon sponge from the tank. No fish died
> during
> the 7 day treatment, but once it was complete, more fish started dying
> again. We lost all 4 dwarf gourami. One in particular looked like his
> lips swelled up, and then he just died. Another was hanging around the
> bottom of the tank not doing much, then started drifting around with
> the
> current and eventually passed.
>
> As a last resort, I went back to the LFS and picked up some Interpet 8
> Angi Fungus & Finrot. This is a one-dose treatment. We treated the tank
> (again, removing the carbon sponge), and another cardinal tetra died on
> the second day of treatment. The bottom half of his tail fin was
> missing
> and he had the same faded rectangular patch as the zebra danio (it even
> made his lightning stripe faded). He was so weak that he had been drawn
> up to the water inlet at the top of the filter box, and several other
> dying/dead fish have been found here. Simply turning off the powerhead
> allows the fish to be released, but they do not have the strength to
> swim properly so I euthenaise in most cases. However, no more fish died
> after this one until today (1 week and 2 days later with no dead fish).
> The one that died today was another cardinal tetra which also got
> sucked
> up to the inlet, but the whole back half of his body was missing and he
> was still alive. From looking at him, he looked slightly faded in
> places
> too.
>
> I am posting here as a last resort because I simply do not know what
> else to try. As far as I can see, the two different medication types
> that I have used cover a broad range of diseases.
>
> We do fortnightly water changes of about 20%, feeding daily on flakes
> and occasional dried bloodworms. Our LFS have tested our water and told
> us that it is in good shape.
>
> We have 3 amano shrimp and a suckermouth catfish, all of which seem to
> be healthy and fine.
>
> All comments welcome, I'm desperate now! TIA.
>
> --
> Matt


Shrimp are quite sensitive to bad water, so this suggests a fish-specific
pathogen. Small fish are usually quite fragile to diseases (at least
until they have been in the tank for many months), and treatments can be
equally hard on them. There are web sites which have specific flowcharts
mapping symptoms to diseases to cures, however for small fish, I
sometimes stay on Melafix (which is not really a medicine) and ride it
out. Smaller fish are also somewhat difficult to diagnose, as they go
from appearing fine to being dead. If their immune system builds up to
the point of surviving, then the pathogen dies off. At that point, you
need to invest in a quarantine tank. Dwarf gouramis in particular are
often poor stock and very susceptible to fungal-like symptoms (often
diagnosed as columnaris). I'm sorry I couldn't be more help. I can
locate some of those fish disease flowchart sites if you need. Richard
recently posted a site with alternatives to anti-biotics (shuffles
bookmarks around... http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/ ), so
there might be something there applicable which is not so strong as to
push the rest of your small fish (and shrimp) over the edge.

Another thought, your bloodworms might be bad. I turned away shipments
where the frozen foods had thawed in transport (making me less than
popular with my supplier). I have the feeling I was in the minority, but
bloodworms in particular can get quite nasty.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

diagnosis is difficult without seeing it. But as soon as you
said gouramis my response is "get a flashlight and look
very carefully at them. You're looking for what appears
to be a dusting of very fine sand. If you see this it's
velvet aka oodinium.

The other symptoms sound lke flex, but they'd all be dead
by now if it really were. My money is on velvet with
secondary (aqnd meaningless) bacterial infection.

Untergasser recommends for velvet:

1) raise temp slowly 33-34C for 24-36 hours.

or

2) Quinine 1g/100L bath for three days. Use Quinine HCl not sulphate.

or

3) Copper sulphate. Nasty. Use abare tank, dissolve 1g CuSO4 and
0.25g citric acid in 1L distilled water. Add 12.5ml per 10L for ten days.
Administer half this on days 3, 5 and 7.

Get a copper test kit. Keep the Cu level, > 0.12 mg/L and < 0.18 mg/l.

Freshwater must be of 10 DH hardness before doing this.




--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Mary Burns]

"Matt Mills" > wrote in message
. 26.234...
> Hi,
>
> The beginning of my story goes back a few months now. I have a Jewel Rio
> 180 tank fully established and fully stocked. All of a sudden, fish
> started going missing. A guppy here and there, the odd cardinal tetra or
> aquatic frog. Things like that. Not often, and not at regular intervals,
> but every now and again we would just not be able to find one particular
> fish.
>
> This increased over time, and fish were unfortunately dying before our
> eyes. The first time I noticed any problem cosmetically with a fish, was
> when we bought some new dwarf rainbow fish. Almost immediately after
> getting them back to our tank from the store, one of them had a cloudy
> area covering its eye. This spread over the whole half of his face, and
> eventually claimed his life. Shortly later, another of the dwarf rainbow
> fish died, with no symptoms before I found his corpse being gorged upon
> by our shrimps.
>
> We've lost a whole bunch of fish and are now down to only a few fish in
> the tank (10-15 down from about 40). One particular zebra danio showed
> like a rectangular cloudy patch on his side. It was as if his stripes
> had lost all colour in this perfect rectangle. I treated the tank with
> Melafix and removed the carbon sponge from the tank. No fish died during
> the 7 day treatment, but once it was complete, more fish started dying
> again. We lost all 4 dwarf gourami. One in particular looked like his
> lips swelled up, and then he just died. Another was hanging around the
> bottom of the tank not doing much, then started drifting around with the
> current and eventually passed.
>
> As a last resort, I went back to the LFS and picked up some Interpet 8
> Angi Fungus & Finrot. This is a one-dose treatment. We treated the tank
> (again, removing the carbon sponge), and another cardinal tetra died on
> the second day of treatment. The bottom half of his tail fin was missing
> and he had the same faded rectangular patch as the zebra danio (it even
> made his lightning stripe faded). He was so weak that he had been drawn
> up to the water inlet at the top of the filter box, and several other
> dying/dead fish have been found here. Simply turning off the powerhead
> allows the fish to be released, but they do not have the strength to
> swim properly so I euthenaise in most cases. However, no more fish died
> after this one until today (1 week and 2 days later with no dead fish).
> The one that died today was another cardinal tetra which also got sucked
> up to the inlet, but the whole back half of his body was missing and he
> was still alive. From looking at him, he looked slightly faded in places
> too.
>
> I am posting here as a last resort because I simply do not know what
> else to try. As far as I can see, the two different medication types
> that I have used cover a broad range of diseases.
>
> We do fortnightly water changes of about 20%, feeding daily on flakes
> and occasional dried bloodworms. Our LFS have tested our water and told
> us that it is in good shape.
>
> We have 3 amano shrimp and a suckermouth catfish, all of which seem to
> be healthy and fine.
>
> All comments welcome, I'm desperate now! TIA.
>
> --
> Matt


I have 5 juwel tanks, so am familar with the internal filter maintance. Have
you been meticulous with removing the carbon/nitrate sponges after 6 weeks,
only 4 if fully stocked. I wash the top white filter twice a week, change
about once a month, wash the remaining coarse blue every 6 weeks, fine blue
sponges every 2 months in old tank water at water change time. My juwel 180
has only 3 angels, but an added airstone to increase oxygen. I find the
internal filters excellent with tanks about half to 3/4 full, but not as
good when full. Some add external filters or increase water changes. My
juwel 96 is fully stocked and copes as it only has w.c. minnows and neons,
both have similar needs and are slim bodied fish. Since I have changed to
single and dual species tanks, the internal filters are better. The top
white wool filter used to dirty dark green or brown in 5 days and now is
hardly dirty. I'm sure juwel tanks benefit from at least weekly water
changes. Remoning the carbon is important and you can run them without one
rather than leave it in too long, and always use a new one after any
treatment. You really need to get your own test kits, to keep nitrate as low
as possible, around 10 to 20. I know my LFS thinks nitrate up to 50 is ok,
and will say water is ok at that level.

[Matt Mills]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input so far. I'm at work at the moment so can't really
comment or try anything, however I noticed somebody said it would help if
you could SEE one of the fish. High resolution image, beware dialup users:

http://www.btinternet.com/~matt_mills/temp/half_cardinal.jpg

This is the cardinal which died yesterday as described. Like I said, this
was the first in over a week since the Interpet treatment.

The only thing I wanted to say that I didn't in my initial post was that I
have a sneaky suspicion my blind cave fish are extreme carnivores. Once
before when I had an ill cardinal tetra, I noticed a few hours later the
tail end was poking out of the mouth of one of my blind cave fish.

Could this be why I keep finding half-fish and chomp-ridden fish rather
than whole fish? Could my blind cave fish be causing any of the problems
I'm having? I thought blind cave fish were of the tetra family, like
cardinals so this puzzled me.

Hope the image helps.

--
Matt

[Gill Passman]

Matt Mills wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> Thanks for all the input so far. I'm at work at the moment so can't really
> comment or try anything, however I noticed somebody said it would help if
> you could SEE one of the fish. High resolution image, beware dialup users:
>
> http://www.btinternet.com/~matt_mills/temp/half_cardinal.jpg
>
> This is the cardinal which died yesterday as described. Like I said, this
> was the first in over a week since the Interpet treatment.
>
> The only thing I wanted to say that I didn't in my initial post was that I
> have a sneaky suspicion my blind cave fish are extreme carnivores. Once
> before when I had an ill cardinal tetra, I noticed a few hours later the
> tail end was poking out of the mouth of one of my blind cave fish.
>
> Could this be why I keep finding half-fish and chomp-ridden fish rather
> than whole fish? Could my blind cave fish be causing any of the problems
> I'm having? I thought blind cave fish were of the tetra family, like
> cardinals so this puzzled me.
>
> Hope the image helps.
>
Certainly looks as if it has been chomped on....

What type of fish exactly is the "blind cave fish"?

Gill

[Matt Mills]

Gill Passman > wrote in
:

> Certainly looks as if it has been chomped on....
>
> What type of fish exactly is the "blind cave fish"?
>
> Gill

Image:

http://tinyurl.com/7es3j

Details:

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/characins2/a/blindcavefish.htm

The above page indicates that they are tetra, as I suspected.

--
Matt

[Gill Passman]

Matt Mills wrote:
> Gill Passman > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Certainly looks as if it has been chomped on....
>>
>>What type of fish exactly is the "blind cave fish"?
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> Image:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7es3j
>
> Details:
>
> http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/characins2/a/blindcavefish.htm
>
> The above page indicates that they are tetra, as I suspected.
>
Looks an interesting fish :-)

IME most of my fish will attempt to scavange at a dead companion...

Who else is in the tank? You mentioned a suckermouth catfish in your
tank - have you any more details? Chinese Algae Eaters (CAEs) have a bit
of a nasty reputation I've heard...

Gill

[A Man]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 02:34:19 +0000 (UTC) in article <dsblbb$na8$9
@news.datemas.de>, spoke thusly...
>
> 3) Copper sulphate. Nasty. Use abare tank, dissolve 1g CuSO4 and
> 0.25g citric acid in 1L distilled water. Add 12.5ml per 10L for ten days.
> Administer half this on days 3, 5 and 7.

Careful. Copper kills all invertebrates, i.e. shrimp.

--
Sig: Say no to fixed width HTML tables. They look terrible in most browsers.

[Richard Sexton]

In article 4>,
Matt Mills > wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>Thanks for all the input so far. I'm at work at the moment so can't really
>comment or try anything, however I noticed somebody said it would help if
>you could SEE one of the fish. High resolution image, beware dialup users:
>
>http://www.btinternet.com/~matt_mills/temp/half_cardinal.jpg
>
>This is the cardinal which died yesterday as described. Like I said, this
>was the first in over a week since the Interpet treatment.
>
>The only thing I wanted to say that I didn't in my initial post was that I
>have a sneaky suspicion my blind cave fish are extreme carnivores. Once
>before when I had an ill cardinal tetra, I noticed a few hours later the
>tail end was poking out of the mouth of one of my blind cave fish.

Nah, they're just tetras. Lots of fish will eat other dead fish.

>Could this be why I keep finding half-fish and chomp-ridden fish rather
>than whole fish? Could my blind cave fish be causing any of the problems
>I'm having? I thought blind cave fish were of the tetra family, like
>cardinals so this puzzled me.

Cardinals are real touchy. Got ammonia?


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article 4>,
> Matt Mills > wrote:
>>Hi guys,
>>
>>Thanks for all the input so far. I'm at work at the moment so can't
>>really
>>comment or try anything, however I noticed somebody said it would help
>>if
>>you could SEE one of the fish. High resolution image, beware dialup
>>users:
>>
>>http://www.btinternet.com/~matt_mills/temp/half_cardinal.jpg
>>
>>This is the cardinal which died yesterday as described. Like I said,
>>this
>>was the first in over a week since the Interpet treatment.
>>
>>The only thing I wanted to say that I didn't in my initial post was
>>that I
>>have a sneaky suspicion my blind cave fish are extreme carnivores. Once
>>before when I had an ill cardinal tetra, I noticed a few hours later
>>the
>>tail end was poking out of the mouth of one of my blind cave fish.
>
> Nah, they're just tetras. Lots of fish will eat other dead fish.

That hasn't been my experience. When they get bigger, they become
predatory towards smaller fish.

I'm not sure why they are sometimes called Blind Cave Barbs (cyprinidae)
when they are characidae. I heard of them as Blind Cave Characins
(Anoptichthys jordani), and Blind Cave Tetras (Astyanax jordani) and
listed as Blind Cave Fish or Barb (Astyanax fasciatus mexicanus, which is
weird because both Astyanax mexicanus and Astyanax fasciatus (Cuvier)
have eyes!). I won't pretend to understand their nomenclature evolution,
but assuming the fish the OP has are the same I had in my shop, these
guys are not to be trusted as adults with smaller fish around.

Think like a fish which is a blind hunter (it mouths things to see if
they fit and are tasty): Aha, the vibrations of a smaller fish which is
unwell *chomp*. That was tasty. Aha, the vibrations of a small fish
which is healthier *chomp* (not for long ;~).

Other interesting things about these characters (above the fact that they
are blind and still excellent hunters), is that they react to bright
lights by moving away (?), and researchers have been able to transplant
eyes on them, and the eyes developed and they could see.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>>Could this be why I keep finding half-fish and chomp-ridden fish rather
>>than whole fish? Could my blind cave fish be causing any of the
>>problems
>>I'm having? I thought blind cave fish were of the tetra family, like
>>cardinals so this puzzled me.
>
> Cardinals are real touchy. Got ammonia?
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>> Nah, they're just tetras. Lots of fish will eat other dead fish.
>
>That hasn't been my experience. When they get bigger, they become
>predatory towards smaller fish.

Huh, I never saw that, but I can't say I've had a lot of them
or even had them for a long time.

>I'm not sure why they are sometimes called Blind Cave Barbs (cyprinidae)
>when they are characidae. I heard of them as Blind Cave Characins
>(Anoptichthys jordani), and Blind Cave Tetras (Astyanax jordani) and
>listed as Blind Cave Fish or Barb (Astyanax fasciatus mexicanus, which is
>weird because both Astyanax mexicanus and Astyanax fasciatus (Cuvier)
>have eyes!). I won't pretend to understand their nomenclature evolution,
>but assuming the fish the OP has are the same I had in my shop, these
>guys are not to be trusted as adults with smaller fish around.

The blind cave barb is Caecobarbus geertsi of which I've only ever seen
two pictures and never the actual fish in real life. One is the
McInerny / Gerrard book "All About Tropical Fish" (great book despite
half the bllody names are wrong, like 50 years outdated) the other is
at:

http://www.pragmasoft.be/carnets/bio/animcav/adap.htm

This page hints at the Lamarckian vs. Darwinian debate, and points out
the fish are born with eyes but they "close up". None the less, they
*are* sensitive to light; their skin is transparent and they don't
need eyes to see light if I read this page correctly.

Seldom, if ever imported, never bred.

The "blind cave fish" of the aquarium trade is Astayanax maxicanus,
a tetra:

http://jonahsaquarium.com/picastyanaxmex.htm

(Hey, I know this guy, SCKC killi guy in LA)

And this fish was common as dirt when I wasa kid, but I havn't seen one
in a very long time. To be fair they never saw me either. Har.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> Nah, they're just tetras. Lots of fish will eat other dead fish.
>>
>>That hasn't been my experience. When they get bigger, they become
>>predatory towards smaller fish.
>
> Huh, I never saw that, but I can't say I've had a lot of them
> or even had them for a long time.
>
>>I'm not sure why they are sometimes called Blind Cave Barbs
>>(cyprinidae)
>>when they are characidae. I heard of them as Blind Cave Characins
>>(Anoptichthys jordani), and Blind Cave Tetras (Astyanax jordani) and
>>listed as Blind Cave Fish or Barb (Astyanax fasciatus mexicanus, which
>>is
>>weird because both Astyanax mexicanus and Astyanax fasciatus (Cuvier)
>>have eyes!). I won't pretend to understand their nomenclature
>>evolution,
>>but assuming the fish the OP has are the same I had in my shop, these
>>guys are not to be trusted as adults with smaller fish around.
>
> The blind cave barb is Caecobarbus geertsi of which I've only ever seen
> two pictures and never the actual fish in real life. One is the
> McInerny / Gerrard book "All About Tropical Fish" (great book despite
> half the bllody names are wrong, like 50 years outdated) the other is
> at:
>
> http://www.pragmasoft.be/carnets/bio/animcav/adap.htm

This one is definitely not to be trusted with smaller fish ;~).

> This page hints at the Lamarckian vs. Darwinian debate, and points out
> the fish are born with eyes but they "close up". None the less, they
> *are* sensitive to light; their skin is transparent and they don't
> need eyes to see light if I read this page correctly.
>
> Seldom, if ever imported, never bred.
>
> The "blind cave fish" of the aquarium trade is Astayanax maxicanus,
> a tetra:
>
> http://jonahsaquarium.com/picastyanaxmex.htm

That's the one. Nice picture, but that fish is not well.

My employees each 'adopted' a show tank and built their own ecosystem. I
had one teenager who wanted to fill a tank with marine lights and LED
projectors, LED lighthouse etc etc (you get the idea). I gave him a 37g
bowfront to play with but I restricted him to Blind Cave Tetras (the only
fish I thought would not be offended by his light show). The tank got
lots of 'juvenile' attention but we didn't sell any of the fish, so they
got big. They were extremely active and aggressive eaters (perhaps from
competing with each other). They would have made a quick meal out of any
small fish I dropped in there. If they had been raised with small fish,
they might have been more tolerant (as is usually the case), but I can
still see small fish getting accidentally chomped, and then purposely
hunted. This agrees with only one of my books on them, as the rest call
them community fish, so ymmv.

> (Hey, I know this guy, SCKC killi guy in LA)

It's a relatively small 'fish' world. Being in the GTA, you might have
known Jim & Linda (Newcastle I think). Jim was a regular poster for a
long time, and travelled judging fish contests. He is missed and not
forgotten (passed away). I visited him (had over 100 tanks). Breeding
nice Blue Dempseys.

> And this fish was common as dirt when I wasa kid, but I havn't seen one
> in a very long time. To be fair they never saw me either. Har.

LOL! I didn't 'see' that one coming ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Matt Mills]

"NetMax" > wrote in
:

> Another thought, your bloodworms might be bad. I turned away
> shipments where the frozen foods had thawed in transport (making me
> less than popular with my supplier). I have the feeling I was in the
> minority, but bloodworms in particular can get quite nasty.

Freeze dried bloodworms? Can these really go bad?

I try and throw a few in with the regular feeding every now and again
(once per week or so, whenever I remember), but I can always cut it out of
their diet and see what happens.

--
Matt

[Matt Mills]

"Mary Burns" > wrote in
:

> I have 5 juwel tanks, so am familar with the internal filter
> maintance. Have you been meticulous with removing the carbon/nitrate
> sponges after 6 weeks, only 4 if fully stocked. I wash the top white
> filter twice a week, change about once a month, wash the remaining
> coarse blue every 6 weeks, fine blue sponges every 2 months in old
> tank water at water change time. My juwel 180 has only 3 angels, but
> an added airstone to increase oxygen. I find the internal filters
> excellent with tanks about half to 3/4 full, but not as good when
> full. Some add external filters or increase water changes. My juwel 96
> is fully stocked and copes as it only has w.c. minnows and neons, both
> have similar needs and are slim bodied fish. Since I have changed to
> single and dual species tanks, the internal filters are better. The
> top white wool filter used to dirty dark green or brown in 5 days and
> now is hardly dirty. I'm sure juwel tanks benefit from at least weekly
> water changes. Remoning the carbon is important and you can run them
> without one rather than leave it in too long, and always use a new one
> after any treatment. You really need to get your own test kits, to
> keep nitrate as low as possible, around 10 to 20. I know my LFS thinks
> nitrate up to 50 is ok, and will say water is ok at that level.

It sure is a lot of work keeping track of which sponges need
replacing/cleaning when, but I put entries in my calendar software to
remind me.

I replace black and green sponges every 6 weeks. I rinse the filter wool
every weekend and replace every 2 weeks (these things were getting really
grubby really quickly when the tank was fully stocked). The rest are as
documented in the tank documentation, but I haven't really had to do them
much/often as I've only had the tank since August '05.

So, should I be doing weekly water changes instead of fortnightly? I
really don't mind the extra work if it is necessary to prevent and/or help
with current disease(s).

I've just realised, I think I put the pre-treatment carbon sponge back in
after treatment, so if disease can be passed around like that, it might
have been my fault that the most recent fish died. Nevertheless, I redosed
with the Interpet medication I mentioned as soon as this happened, so I
will make sure a new carbon sponge goes back after the treatment this
time.

--
Matt

[Matt Mills]

Gill Passman > wrote in
:

> Looks an interesting fish :-)

They are beautiful and facinating to watch. I love fast swimming fish,
and they certainly are that. Very active all over the tank, although
they don't school together much ;)

> IME most of my fish will attempt to scavange at a dead companion...

This is what I thought, but I think the blind cave fish are natural
scavengers since they do not eat flakes off the surface at feeding time
(I guess they just find they food on the gravel and/or as it drops down
off the surface).

> Who else is in the tank? You mentioned a suckermouth catfish in your
> tank - have you any more details? Chinese Algae Eaters (CAEs) have a
> bit of a nasty reputation I've heard...

When the tank was fully stocked, we had (IIRC):

2 black widows
5 zebra danios
2 whitecloud mountain minnows
1 suckermouth catfish
2 head and tail light tetra
3 guppies
3 pristella tetra
3 amano shrimp
4 blind cave fish
8 cardinal tetra
4 dwarf gourami
4 dwarf rainbow

Thats about all I can think of.

The suckermouth catfish we have is believed to be L001/L022, details and
images here:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/loricari/glyptope/177_F.PHP

He's probably a couple of years old now. He often puts up a fight for
his food since the blind cave fish usually get to it first. He's
perfectly friendly with all the other fish though. Occassionally chases
a shrimp out of his way. :)

--
Matt

[Richard Sexton]

>So, should I be doing weekly water changes instead of fortnightly?

I would. 4X a week if you have sick fish.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Matt Mills]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in news:dsl5vl$sgh$3
@news.datemas.de:

>>So, should I be doing weekly water changes instead of fortnightly?
>
> I would. 4X a week if you have sick fish.

Any explanation behind this? Are you saying that 4 water changes per week
(what percentage?) will *cure* this disease?

Also, when do you draw the line and say that the disease is gone, or that
you don't have sick fish? At the moment, we've probably only lost 1 fish
in like 2 weeks. Bear in mind that the tank is still being medicated, too.

--
Matt

[NetMax]

"Matt Mills" > wrote in message
. 26.234...
> "NetMax" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Another thought, your bloodworms might be bad. I turned away
>> shipments where the frozen foods had thawed in transport (making me
>> less than popular with my supplier). I have the feeling I was in the
>> minority, but bloodworms in particular can get quite nasty.
>
> Freeze dried bloodworms? Can these really go bad?
>
> I try and throw a few in with the regular feeding every now and again
> (once per week or so, whenever I remember), but I can always cut it out
> of
> their diet and see what happens.
>
> --
> Matt

My mistake. Frozen can go bad. Not freeze-dried (at least not as
easily).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Altum]

Matt Mills wrote:
> (Richard Sexton) wrote in news:dsl5vl$sgh$3
> @news.datemas.de:
>
>
>>>So, should I be doing weekly water changes instead of fortnightly?
>>
>>I would. 4X a week if you have sick fish.
>
> Any explanation behind this? Are you saying that 4 water changes per week
> (what percentage?) will *cure* this disease?
>
> Also, when do you draw the line and say that the disease is gone, or that
> you don't have sick fish? At the moment, we've probably only lost 1 fish
> in like 2 weeks. Bear in mind that the tank is still being medicated, too.
>
Richard's right. Fresh water works surprisingly well to cure a lot of
diseases. Do a 30% change and then stick to 50%. Nitrates and DOC
plummet, bacterial counts drop, and parasites are sucked out with the
old water.

[Gill Passman]

Matt Mills wrote:
> Gill Passman > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Looks an interesting fish :-)
>
>
> They are beautiful and facinating to watch. I love fast swimming fish,
> and they certainly are that. Very active all over the tank, although
> they don't school together much ;)
>
>
>>IME most of my fish will attempt to scavange at a dead companion...
>
>
> This is what I thought, but I think the blind cave fish are natural
> scavengers since they do not eat flakes off the surface at feeding time
> (I guess they just find they food on the gravel and/or as it drops down
> off the surface).
>
>
>>Who else is in the tank? You mentioned a suckermouth catfish in your
>>tank - have you any more details? Chinese Algae Eaters (CAEs) have a
>>bit of a nasty reputation I've heard...
>
>
> When the tank was fully stocked, we had (IIRC):
>
> 2 black widows
> 5 zebra danios
> 2 whitecloud mountain minnows
> 1 suckermouth catfish
> 2 head and tail light tetra
> 3 guppies
> 3 pristella tetra
> 3 amano shrimp
> 4 blind cave fish
> 8 cardinal tetra
> 4 dwarf gourami
> 4 dwarf rainbow
>
> Thats about all I can think of.
>
> The suckermouth catfish we have is believed to be L001/L022, details and
> images here:
>
> http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/loricari/glyptope/177_F.PHP
>
> He's probably a couple of years old now. He often puts up a fight for
> his food since the blind cave fish usually get to it first. He's
> perfectly friendly with all the other fish though. Occassionally chases
> a shrimp out of his way. :)
>

It has to be said, I do like the smaller Plecs - I have one Snowball and
Queen Arabesque (dreadful memory for L numbers). I'm thinking of getting
some more soon. I would guess the Plec will also scavange on dead fish -
mine do...

Hopefully the water changes should help clear this up for you....

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

>>>So, should I be doing weekly water changes instead of fortnightly?
>>
>> I would. 4X a week if you have sick fish.
>
>Any explanation behind this? Are you saying that 4 water changes per week
>(what percentage?) will *cure* this disease?

It will help a lot. It flsuhes pathoges, guarentted there's lots of oxygen
and no ammonia. That alone has been known to cure some diseases.

>Also, when do you draw the line and say that the disease is gone, or that
>you don't have sick fish? At the moment, we've probably only lost 1 fish
>in like 2 weeks. Bear in mind that the tank is still being medicated, too.

With what?


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Matt Mills]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in
:

>>Also, when do you draw the line and say that the disease is gone, or
>>that you don't have sick fish? At the moment, we've probably only lost
>>1 fish in like 2 weeks. Bear in mind that the tank is still being
>>medicated, too.
>
> With what?

With the medication I mentioned in my initial post.

First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.

We have had so many different fish die and all showing different signs
that could have been their cause of death that it is difficult to diagnose
and subsequently know which medication to choose. Further to advice that
we may have velvet disease, I read an article which recommends raising
water temperature to 81F but it is always 79F anyway.

--
Matt

[Richard Sexton]

>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
>using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
>mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.

At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first medication.

>We have had so many different fish die and all showing different signs
>that could have been their cause of death that it is difficult to diagnose
>and subsequently know which medication to choose. Further to advice that
>we may have velvet disease, I read an article which recommends raising
>water temperature to 81F but it is always 79F anyway.

Have you confirmed velver with visual inspection? It's unmistakable
with a flashlight. Looks like sand grains all over the fish, but
only when you use a flashlight.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Matt Mills]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in
:

>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
>>using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
>>mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>
> At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first
> medication.

Certainly not at the same time. Melafix was used for 7 days, as
documented, followed by a 30% water change IIRC. At this stage the carbon
went back in (possibly the fatal mistake), then when the next fish died we
began with the next medication.

> Have you confirmed velver with visual inspection? It's unmistakable
> with a flashlight. Looks like sand grains all over the fish, but
> only when you use a flashlight.

To be honest, I've seen nothing that looks even remotely like that, though
I haven't used a flashlight.

--
Matt

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:26:24 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
>>using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
>>mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>
>At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first medication.
>
>>We have had so many different fish die and all showing different signs
>>that could have been their cause of death that it is difficult to diagnose
>>and subsequently know which medication to choose. Further to advice that
>>we may have velvet disease, I read an article which recommends raising
>>water temperature to 81F but it is always 79F anyway.
>
>Have you confirmed velver with visual inspection? It's unmistakable
>with a flashlight. Looks like sand grains all over the fish, but
>only when you use a flashlight.

Is there a good one stop shopping web site that has good pictures of
common diseases? I may regret asking this, so please limit your
response to no more than 100 URLs at a time.

-- Mr Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:26:24 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>
>>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
>>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
>>>using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
>>>mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>>
>>At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first medication.
>>
>>
>>>We have had so many different fish die and all showing different signs
>>>that could have been their cause of death that it is difficult to diagnose
>>>and subsequently know which medication to choose. Further to advice that
>>>we may have velvet disease, I read an article which recommends raising
>>>water temperature to 81F but it is always 79F anyway.
>>
>>Have you confirmed velver with visual inspection? It's unmistakable
>>with a flashlight. Looks like sand grains all over the fish, but
>>only when you use a flashlight.
>
>
> Is there a good one stop shopping web site that has good pictures of
> common diseases? I may regret asking this, so please limit your
> response to no more than 100 URLs at a time.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Here's a UK one -

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/index.htm

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

>Is there a good one stop shopping web site that has good pictures of
>common diseases? I may regret asking this, so please limit your
>response to no more than 100 URLs at a time.

Not that I've seen. Have a look in a well stocked shop at "Handbook
of fish diseases" TFH press. It has all of them and flow charts
to identify any diseast and several options as to what to do
about it.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:33:03 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:26:24 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
>>>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
>>>>using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
>>>>mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>>>
>>>At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first medication.
>>>
>>>
>>>>We have had so many different fish die and all showing different signs
>>>>that could have been their cause of death that it is difficult to diagnose
>>>>and subsequently know which medication to choose. Further to advice that
>>>>we may have velvet disease, I read an article which recommends raising
>>>>water temperature to 81F but it is always 79F anyway.
>>>
>>>Have you confirmed velver with visual inspection? It's unmistakable
>>>with a flashlight. Looks like sand grains all over the fish, but
>>>only when you use a flashlight.
>>
>>
>> Is there a good one stop shopping web site that has good pictures of
>> common diseases? I may regret asking this, so please limit your
>> response to no more than 100 URLs at a time.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>Here's a UK one -
>
>http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/index.htm
>
>Gill

VERY COOL MOVIES! And tons of good reading. Thanks.

-- Mr Gardener

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:26:24 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
<snip>

> Is there a good one stop shopping web site that has good pictures of
> common diseases? I may regret asking this, so please limit your
> response to no more than 100 URLs at a time.

Hey, I resemble that ! ;~) I don't think there is a one-stop shopping
site. There used to be a good one which referrenced a lot of
Untergasser's research, but I can't locate it, or maybe one of the sites
below copied it.

first in baby steps:
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/diagnosis.htm

then in earnest:
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/symptoms.html
http://www.angelfire.com/blues/fish_problems/
http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/diseases/freshwater/freshdischart.html
http://fins.actwin.com/disease/chart1.php
http://aquafiend.plantedtank.net/disease.html
http://ibmring.com/guppy/remedychart.htm
http://www.elmersaquarium.com/c107problemchart.htm
http://www.klsnet.com/files/fishchart.htm
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm
http://world.std.com/~enjolras/symtreat.htm
http://www.aqualink.com/disease/sdisease.html

Read those dozen and you'll feel like you read 100 ;~).

and if it was parasitic:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/scripts/FA041

or maybe internal bacterial:
http://www.4qd.org/Aqua/disease/tb.html (TB)

not the chart form, but a very credible site you can use to check some of
the hooee from above
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/

--
www.NetMax.tk


> -- Mr Gardener

[Far Thunder]

"Matt Mills" > wrote in message . 26.234...
>>>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and ulcers,
>>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we are
>>>using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats finrot,
>>>mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>>
>> At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first
>> medication.
>
> Certainly not at the same time. Melafix was used for 7 days, as
> documented, followed by a 30% water change IIRC. At this stage the carbon
> went back in (possibly the fatal mistake), then when the next fish died we
> began with the next medication.
*SNIP*

Hmm...so when's the last time you actually changed this carbon you're swapping in and out? Saturated carbon could leach
adsorbed material back into tank water, causing more harm than doing good. and more importantly, why do you have carbon in
the filter full-time (?) anyway? What is it you're trying to remove with it?




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[Matt Mills]

"Far Thunder" > wrote in
:

> "Matt Mills" > wrote in message
> . 26.234...
>>>>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and
>>>>>ulcers,
>>>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we
>>>>are using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats
>>>>finrot, mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>>>
>>> At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first
>>> medication.
>>
>> Certainly not at the same time. Melafix was used for 7 days, as
>> documented, followed by a 30% water change IIRC. At this stage the
>> carbon went back in (possibly the fatal mistake), then when the next
>> fish died we began with the next medication.
> *SNIP*
>
> Hmm...so when's the last time you actually changed this carbon you're
> swapping in and out? Saturated carbon could leach adsorbed material
> back into tank water, causing more harm than doing good. and more
> importantly, why do you have carbon in the filter full-time (?)
> anyway? What is it you're trying to remove with it?

The carbon sponge in question would have been no older than 6 weeks. The
tank documentation says to replace the carbon sponge every 4-6 weeks.

At the moment, since we are just finishing off the latest treatment of
Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot medication, there is no carbon sponge
present. However, when I next put one in it will be brand spanking new.

IIRC, the wording for the requirement of the carbon sponge was to "remove
impurities" from the water. I've never been told that it is only a
temporary measure. When should/shouldn't carbon be present in the filter
then?

--
Matt

[Gill Passman]

Matt Mills wrote:
> "Far Thunder" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>"Matt Mills" > wrote in message
. 26.234...
>>
>>>>>>First we tried Melafix which supposedly treats open wounds and
>>>>>>ulcers,
>>>>>
>>>>>damaged fins, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot and eye cloud. Now we
>>>>>are using Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot which supposedly treats
>>>>>finrot, mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease.
>>>>
>>>>At the same time? Did you completely get rid of all the first
>>>>medication.
>>>
>>>Certainly not at the same time. Melafix was used for 7 days, as
>>>documented, followed by a 30% water change IIRC. At this stage the
>>>carbon went back in (possibly the fatal mistake), then when the next
>>>fish died we began with the next medication.
>>
>>*SNIP*
>>
>>Hmm...so when's the last time you actually changed this carbon you're
>>swapping in and out? Saturated carbon could leach adsorbed material
>>back into tank water, causing more harm than doing good. and more
>>importantly, why do you have carbon in the filter full-time (?)
>>anyway? What is it you're trying to remove with it?
>
>
> The carbon sponge in question would have been no older than 6 weeks. The
> tank documentation says to replace the carbon sponge every 4-6 weeks.
>
> At the moment, since we are just finishing off the latest treatment of
> Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot medication, there is no carbon sponge
> present. However, when I next put one in it will be brand spanking new.
>
> IIRC, the wording for the requirement of the carbon sponge was to "remove
> impurities" from the water. I've never been told that it is only a
> temporary measure. When should/shouldn't carbon be present in the filter
> then?
>

I don't use carbon other than to take out meds from water or maybe if I
get a water quality issue - my feeling is that it takes out some of the
"good" stuff out as well - I have planted tanks....

There is really no necessity unless you have issues that dictate that
you need them....so why bother???? The potential issues of spent carbon
from what I have read also influence this....

Gill

[Far Thunder]

"Matt Mills" > wrote in message . 26.234...
*SNIP*

>> Hmm...so when's the last time you actually changed this carbon you're
>> swapping in and out? Saturated carbon could leach adsorbed material
>> back into tank water, causing more harm than doing good. and more
>> importantly, why do you have carbon in the filter full-time (?)
>> anyway? What is it you're trying to remove with it?
>
> The carbon sponge in question would have been no older than 6 weeks. The
> tank documentation says to replace the carbon sponge every 4-6 weeks.

> At the moment, since we are just finishing off the latest treatment of
> Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot medication, there is no carbon sponge
> present. However, when I next put one in it will be brand spanking new.
>
> IIRC, the wording for the requirement of the carbon sponge was to "remove
> impurities" from the water. I've never been told that it is only a
> temporary measure. When should/shouldn't carbon be present in the filter
> then?

Opinions vary, and the debate of whether to use charcoal/carbon long-term in tanks will doubtless rage on. Google the topic
if you want to see the last round of the debate :) Essentially, it probably depends on your water conditions and what you are
trying to accomplish with your fish/tank. I have not used carbon in any of my tanks for the better part of 1.5 years now
since going to planted tanks, and have had zero problems. That's just me, YMMV.

I asked to determine if you were using it for a specific reason, or merely using it because you're "supposed" to
(manufacturer recommendations). Further, from previous posts, seems you had a fairly heavy bioload in there; depending on the
size/amount/quality of carbon actually in the "carbon sponge", it may very well exhaust itself before 6 weeks, depending
again on bioload and whatever "impurities" it is adsorbing from your water. Once saturated/exhausted, it will release
"impurities" back into your water if left in use. This is bad news to fish.

What you have to keep in mind, the manufacturer wants to make money, and they make money by keeping you buying their
products. Not to say you NEVER have to replace physical/chemical media, but chances are, IME, the manufacturer has ulterior
motives in setting their "recommendations" for replacement.

How about when the current round of meds is over, use your charcoal to remove whatever medications from water, then remove
carbon and don't replace and see what happens. This will rule out carbon saturation one way or the other.

Definitely look into getting a quarantine tank to prevent a similar disaster in the future. Simple 10/20-gallon bare tank
with heater and sponge filter would probably suit your needs based on your listed fish. throw a few fake plants and some
caves in there to keep economical, and you're done. Hence if you quarantine new fish, you have less chance of some mystery
disease wipe out your established tank. Keep your q-tank small and simple also helps prevent the temptation of filling it
with full-time residents and thus the need for another q-tank and so on..;)

HTH
lila pilamaya








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[NetMax]

"Far Thunder" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Mills" > wrote in message
> . 26.234...
> *SNIP*
>
>>> Hmm...so when's the last time you actually changed this carbon you're
>>> swapping in and out? Saturated carbon could leach adsorbed material
>>> back into tank water, causing more harm than doing good. and more
>>> importantly, why do you have carbon in the filter full-time (?)
>>> anyway? What is it you're trying to remove with it?
>>
>> The carbon sponge in question would have been no older than 6 weeks.
>> The
>> tank documentation says to replace the carbon sponge every 4-6 weeks.
>
>> At the moment, since we are just finishing off the latest treatment of
>> Interpet Anti Fungus & Finrot medication, there is no carbon sponge
>> present. However, when I next put one in it will be brand spanking
>> new.
>>
>> IIRC, the wording for the requirement of the carbon sponge was to
>> "remove
>> impurities" from the water. I've never been told that it is only a
>> temporary measure. When should/shouldn't carbon be present in the
>> filter
>> then?
>
> Opinions vary, and the debate of whether to use charcoal/carbon
> long-term in tanks will doubtless rage on. Google the topic if you want
> to see the last round of the debate :) Essentially, it probably depends
> on your water conditions and what you are trying to accomplish with
> your fish/tank. I have not used carbon in any of my tanks for the
> better part of 1.5 years now since going to planted tanks, and have had
> zero problems. That's just me, YMMV.
>
> I asked to determine if you were using it for a specific reason, or
> merely using it because you're "supposed" to (manufacturer
> recommendations). Further, from previous posts, seems you had a fairly
> heavy bioload in there; depending on the size/amount/quality of carbon
> actually in the "carbon sponge", it may very well exhaust itself before
> 6 weeks, depending again on bioload and whatever "impurities" it is
> adsorbing from your water. Once saturated/exhausted, it will release
> "impurities" back into your water if left in use. This is bad news to
> fish.
>
> What you have to keep in mind, the manufacturer wants to make money,
> and they make money by keeping you buying their products. Not to say
> you NEVER have to replace physical/chemical media, but chances are,
> IME, the manufacturer has ulterior motives in setting their
> "recommendations" for replacement.
>
> How about when the current round of meds is over, use your charcoal to
> remove whatever medications from water, then remove carbon and don't
> replace and see what happens. This will rule out carbon saturation one
> way or the other.
>
> Definitely look into getting a quarantine tank to prevent a similar
> disaster in the future. Simple 10/20-gallon bare tank with heater and
> sponge filter would probably suit your needs based on your listed fish.
> throw a few fake plants and some caves in there to keep economical, and
> you're done. Hence if you quarantine new fish, you have less chance of
> some mystery disease wipe out your established tank. Keep your q-tank
> small and simple also helps prevent the temptation of filling it with
> full-time residents and thus the need for another q-tank and so on..;)
>
> HTH
> lila pilamaya


Hey Far Thunder, always nice to see you posting. Did you change
newsreaders? I don't see rich text :o) and your word-wrap seems to be
off. I send with a wrap at 73 characters if you want to try that.
--
www.NetMax.tk