Talk about "stray" electricity... (long, but possibly worth it)

[Nick Buol]

Holy crap! I saw one of my snails looking a little "odd" last night.
I had just removed some of my "weeds" from my tank the night before
(macroalgae that is growing like crazy).

I thought that maybe the poor guy (astrea) had fallen and needed some
help. I moved him closer to the glass and let him be.

Tonight, I get home from work, and there is the snail, just like he
was the night before. Uh, oh...

I took him out, and he stunk pretty bad. Bye bye dead snail.
Hmmm... What is this under the live rock...

CRAP....

Dead scarlet cleaner shrimp... OK. Something bad is going on. Out
comes the test kit. pH was a little low (most likely from pulling
out a lot of the macroalgae) at 7.9. OK. I can fix that.. On to
the next test. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, etc, etc. Besides the low pH, I
couldn't find anything out of wack.

I started getting the rest of the lights off of the tank so I could
have better access to do a water change and add some temp buffer to
boost the pH, when I noticed an odd odor. I had smelled it before.
It smelled like burnt plastic and circuit board. Not good. I look
around some more. My polyps are all closed up, some of the chromis
are breathing heavy and not swimming much, even some rock anenomnes
are shrivled up. (Maybe a method to kill the little suckers... Not
worth the risk).... read on....
h
I get everyone off of the top of our 75 gallon tank, and start finding
the source of the smell. It was coming from near my UV sterilizer. I
go to take it out, and I notice a piece of plastic near the powerhead
(this is fairly well hiden by live rock so I didn't see it until now).
It was the top to the power head. I go to take the powerhead off and
that is when I noticed it. The cord to the powerhead (Rio 400) had
come detached somehow. The breaker on the power strip didn't pop like
I thought it would have. I promply took out the cord (yup, it was
live. I got a little jolt to prove it. No big deal for me, a 250lb
6'2" guy, but what about my fishies.)

The smell was coming from the dead powerhead. Something seriously
went wrong with it and I think that it blew the top right off and was
emitting toxins into the water.

"I NEED CLEAN WATER," I cried to myself. I did a significant water
change (about 65% - 70% of the water) and I am hoping for the best for
today. (it is now 10:30PM and I have homework for my masters degree I
need to do and turn in before midnight... I know, why am I posting a
message here when there is school work to do...)

I pitched the powerhead, and completely removed the UV for now (no
spare powerhead, so it is a good time to clean it.... Another day,
that is)....

Anyhow, I think that the only thing that saved my chromis (hopefully)
and the other fish (some perc. clowns and flame angel) was that I had
a grounding probe. It didn't take care of all of it, but it must have
helped quite a bit. Of course, it was probably the reason that the
power stip's circuit breaker didn't pop. But if it had, I could not
see how any fish would have survive the jolt.

My guess is that when I was taking out the macroalgae, it must have
been attached pretty well to the cord, and the cord was already
failing. I just triggered it to go. I say this because that was the
last time I noticed everything being OK in the tank. Last night I
noticed the snail, but I was so focused on him, and I thought that he
just fell on his back, that I didn't examine the rest of the tank for
other problems.


Lots of lessons to learned here. I hope that in reading this, you
were able to learn one or two

[Mort]

Someone else can comment on this but I dont think the fish can get
electrocuted. You have to be grounded in order for the electricity to
travel through you. If a fish is in the water it should be fine.

I got shocked once from a loose power head wire. Stuck my hand in the tank
for a cleeaning and got a nice zap. I removed the power head and the fish
were fine. (Freshwater cichlids)

The fish are prolly out of sorts from the powerhead melting down and
emmitting toxins. I doubt the electricity had anything to do with it.

I dont know about the innards of a powerhead but all electric motors that I
have seen consist of COPPER windings. And inverts are VERY sensetive to
copper so.... <--- WAG

hth

~Mort



"Nick Buol" > wrote in message
...
> Holy crap! I saw one of my snails looking a little "odd" last night.
> I had just removed some of my "weeds" from my tank the night before
> (macroalgae that is growing like crazy).
>
> I thought that maybe the poor guy (astrea) had fallen and needed some
> help. I moved him closer to the glass and let him be.
>
> Tonight, I get home from work, and there is the snail, just like he
> was the night before. Uh, oh...
>
> I took him out, and he stunk pretty bad. Bye bye dead snail.
> Hmmm... What is this under the live rock...
>
> CRAP....
>
> Dead scarlet cleaner shrimp... OK. Something bad is going on. Out
> comes the test kit. pH was a little low (most likely from pulling
> out a lot of the macroalgae) at 7.9. OK. I can fix that.. On to
> the next test. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, etc, etc. Besides the low pH, I
> couldn't find anything out of wack.
>
> I started getting the rest of the lights off of the tank so I could
> have better access to do a water change and add some temp buffer to
> boost the pH, when I noticed an odd odor. I had smelled it before.
> It smelled like burnt plastic and circuit board. Not good. I look
> around some more. My polyps are all closed up, some of the chromis
> are breathing heavy and not swimming much, even some rock anenomnes
> are shrivled up. (Maybe a method to kill the little suckers... Not
> worth the risk).... read on....
> h
> I get everyone off of the top of our 75 gallon tank, and start finding
> the source of the smell. It was coming from near my UV sterilizer. I
> go to take it out, and I notice a piece of plastic near the powerhead
> (this is fairly well hiden by live rock so I didn't see it until now).
> It was the top to the power head. I go to take the powerhead off and
> that is when I noticed it. The cord to the powerhead (Rio 400) had
> come detached somehow. The breaker on the power strip didn't pop like
> I thought it would have. I promply took out the cord (yup, it was
> live. I got a little jolt to prove it. No big deal for me, a 250lb
> 6'2" guy, but what about my fishies.)
>
> The smell was coming from the dead powerhead. Something seriously
> went wrong with it and I think that it blew the top right off and was
> emitting toxins into the water.
>
> "I NEED CLEAN WATER," I cried to myself. I did a significant water
> change (about 65% - 70% of the water) and I am hoping for the best for
> today. (it is now 10:30PM and I have homework for my masters degree I
> need to do and turn in before midnight... I know, why am I posting a
> message here when there is school work to do...)
>
> I pitched the powerhead, and completely removed the UV for now (no
> spare powerhead, so it is a good time to clean it.... Another day,
> that is)....
>
> Anyhow, I think that the only thing that saved my chromis (hopefully)
> and the other fish (some perc. clowns and flame angel) was that I had
> a grounding probe. It didn't take care of all of it, but it must have
> helped quite a bit. Of course, it was probably the reason that the
> power stip's circuit breaker didn't pop. But if it had, I could not
> see how any fish would have survive the jolt.
>
> My guess is that when I was taking out the macroalgae, it must have
> been attached pretty well to the cord, and the cord was already
> failing. I just triggered it to go. I say this because that was the
> last time I noticed everything being OK in the tank. Last night I
> noticed the snail, but I was so focused on him, and I thought that he
> just fell on his back, that I didn't examine the rest of the tank for
> other problems.
>
>
> Lots of lessons to learned here. I hope that in reading this, you
> were able to learn one or two
>

[Pszemol]

"Mort" > wrote in message . ..
> Someone else can comment on this but I dont think the fish can get
> electrocuted. You have to be grounded in order for the electricity to
> travel through you. If a fish is in the water it should be fine.

The problem here was that they WERE GROUNDED... He had grounding probe :-)
So theoreticaly, then the fish swim in the water, they swim in the
large conductor passing current from his naked wires to grounding probe.

[Pszemol]

"Nick Buol" > wrote in message ...
> It was the top to the power head. I go to take the powerhead off and
> that is when I noticed it. The cord to the powerhead (Rio 400) had
> come detached somehow. The breaker on the power strip didn't pop like
> I thought it would have. I promply took out the cord (yup, it was
> live. I got a little jolt to prove it. No big deal for me, a 250lb
> 6'2" guy, but what about my fishies.)

I would double check the connections man - something is wrong...
Assuming live naked wire in the salty water together with grounding
probe did not trip the breaker I would say the breaker is dead
or there is something wrong with the connection of the probe...

> Anyhow, I think that the only thing that saved my chromis (hopefully)
> and the other fish (some perc. clowns and flame angel) was that I had
> a grounding probe. It didn't take care of all of it, but it must have
> helped quite a bit. Of course, it was probably the reason that the
> power stip's circuit breaker didn't pop. But if it had, I could not
> see how any fish would have survive the jolt.

How do you understand it? How the probe helped here, in your opinion?

[Dr Drudge]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message >...
> "Nick Buol" > wrote in message ...
> > It was the top to the power head. I go to take the powerhead off and
> > that is when I noticed it. The cord to the powerhead (Rio 400) had
> > come detached somehow. The breaker on the power strip didn't pop like
> > I thought it would have. I promply took out the cord (yup, it was
> > live. I got a little jolt to prove it. No big deal for me, a 250lb
> > 6'2" guy, but what about my fishies.)
>
> I would double check the connections man - something is wrong...
> Assuming live naked wire in the salty water together with grounding
> probe did not trip the breaker I would say the breaker is dead
> or there is something wrong with the connection of the probe...
>
> > Anyhow, I think that the only thing that saved my chromis (hopefully)
> > and the other fish (some perc. clowns and flame angel) was that I had
> > a grounding probe. It didn't take care of all of it, but it must have
> > helped quite a bit. Of course, it was probably the reason that the
> > power stip's circuit breaker didn't pop. But if it had, I could not
> > see how any fish would have survive the jolt.
>
> How do you understand it? How the probe helped here, in your opinion?

I'm surprised the ground probe didn't melt- mine has a thin,maybe a 20
gauge, wire from the probe to ground.
I would think that having bare ends of wire straight from the wall
socket in the tank would have even tripped the circuit breaker (I mean
the house wiring breaker, not the power strip).
Must not have been a direct short to ground...

A GFCI probable would have tripped here- they are very sensitive to
any ground leakage, so a small amount of current through the ground
probe (if connected properly!) would have popped it.

[Ross Bagley]

Nick Buol > writes:

[...snip...]

> I get everyone off of the top of our 75 gallon tank, and start finding
> the source of the smell. It was coming from near my UV sterilizer. I
> go to take it out, and I notice a piece of plastic near the powerhead
> (this is fairly well hiden by live rock so I didn't see it until now).
> It was the top to the power head. I go to take the powerhead off and
> that is when I noticed it. The cord to the powerhead (Rio 400) had
> come detached somehow.

Welcome to the Rio meltdown club! When I started reading your story,
it sounded a little familiar, then it sounded a *lot* familiar, and
before getting here, I knew the name of the bargain basement powerhead
that was the cause of your problems.

> The breaker on the power strip didn't pop like I thought it would
> have.

Though the Rio may have had some electrical connection to the water,
the failure to pop a breaker or go into full meltdown would lead me to
believe that the big problem was the toxic goop the Rio was dumping
into the water.

BTW, you should to have several GFCI's between your electrical supply
and your aquarium. These are like circuit breakers, but they will cut
the power if the hot line ever connects to ground through the load
(pump, light, etc.) I like to have one per pump, so that if one pump
fails electrically, it doesn't take anything else with it.

I put one of these inline with each pump's plug:

http://www.sordselectric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SE&Product_Code=GFCI202&Category_Code=G

Though these would work great for many power strips:

http://www.sordselectric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SE&Product_Code=GFCI040&Category_Code=G

IMHO, they're cheap insurance for the animals in my care.

[...snip...]

> The smell was coming from the dead powerhead. Something seriously
> went wrong with it and I think that it blew the top right off and was
> emitting toxins into the water.

This is almost certainly the cause of your tank issues.

[...snip...]

> Anyhow, I think that the only thing that saved my chromis (hopefully)
> and the other fish (some perc. clowns and flame angel) was that I had
> a grounding probe. It didn't take care of all of it, but it must have
> helped quite a bit. Of course, it was probably the reason that the
> power stip's circuit breaker didn't pop.

Actually, the grounding probe would have made the circuit breaker pop
faster if you had a bare connection from the hot wire to the water. I
suspect that the power cord was loose because of the meltdown and the
subsequent loss of integrity of the pump's casing.

[...snip...]

> My guess is that when I was taking out the macroalgae, it must have
> been attached pretty well to the cord, and the cord was already
> failing. I just triggered it to go.

Rio pumps do this kind of thing (melt down and release toxic goop into
the water) fairly frequently:

http://reefs.org/GBSurvey/surveyq.php?survey_id=12&view_results=true

In fact, IMHO, it's the only thing they're really legendary at doing.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Pszemol]

"Dr Drudge" > wrote in message om...
> I'm surprised the ground probe didn't melt- mine has a thin,
> maybe a 20 gauge, wire from the probe to ground.

Maybe it did, and that is the reason the breaker did not trip.
With the short to the ground from the live wire it should trip.

> I would think that having bare ends of wire straight from the wall
> socket in the tank would have even tripped the circuit breaker
> (I mean the house wiring breaker, not the power strip).
> Must not have been a direct short to ground...

Power strip should go first since it is 5A usually and in the
house breaker you will have 20 or more Amps of protection.
The grounding probe wire will not handle 20 amps of current
enough to trip the breaker, so the wire will probably work
as a fuse here.

> A GFCI probable would have tripped here- they are very sensitive to
> any ground leakage, so a small amount of current through the ground
> probe (if connected properly!) would have popped it.

If he had GFCI installed...

[Ct Midnite]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:36:08 -0600, "Pszemol" >
wrote:

>> A GFCI probable would have tripped here- they are very sensitive to
>> any ground leakage, so a small amount of current through the ground
>> probe (if connected properly!) would have popped it.
>
>If he had GFCI installed...

I have GFCI installed in my downstairs setups. But I was tickled once
or twice when I first got things up and running. Just a tickle, and
then only so slight most of the time you couldn't feel it unless you
just brushed the water. And now nothing for quite awhile.

But my question is will GFCI's work with two prone plugs? If so
please explain exactly how these work. I've always wondered.

Ct Midnite

http://www.geocities.com/ctmidnite53/

[Pszemol]

"Ct Midnite" <mreef2.10.muffin@spamgourmet.(nospam)com> wrote in message ...
> >If he had GFCI installed...
>
> I have GFCI installed in my downstairs setups. But I was tickled once
> or twice when I first got things up and running. Just a tickle, and
> then only so slight most of the time you couldn't feel it unless you
> just brushed the water. And now nothing for quite awhile.

GFCI is not there to prevent you get tickle.
It is there to prevent you from being electrocuted.
1mA of current is detectable, GFCI usually trips
when the current is in the 7-30mA range, depending
of the manufacturer and model number.

> But my question is will GFCI's work with two prone plugs? If so
> please explain exactly how these work. I've always wondered.

Yes, GFCI will work. It detects a current DIFFERENCE in two
wires: hot and zero wire. This difference means the current
flows to ground (probably using your body as conductor).

[skozzy]

When adding current to salt water you get with copper wires you get
corrosion, ozone, copper, zinc and chorine or cloromine. The power might not
have caused any deaths but the effects of decaying copper wire would have
for sure. I think another water change or more might be called for. Possible
rinse off what you can under the tap. You have had a few days of this by the
sounds of it.. I'd be worried of ongoing after effects.