[water chemistry] Amquel+ and nitrites

[Pszemol]

I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?

BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?

[Boomer]

"Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
or nitrates? "

No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last month. He said
it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product is interfering
with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is actually still
there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but more analytical
means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.


"BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"

Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic in seawater, as
it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a myth for decades
that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in FW.
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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Please Join Our Growing Membership
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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
: only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
: compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
: good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
: Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
:
: BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?

[Richard Ryerson]

Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?

Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?

I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.

-Rick

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> or nitrates? "
>
> No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
month. He said
> it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
is interfering
> with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
actually still
> there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
more analytical
> means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
>
>
> "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
>
> Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
in seawater, as
> it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
myth for decades
> that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
FW.
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
> : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
> : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
> : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
> : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
> :
> : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
>
>

[Benjamin]

I presumed he meant nitrites, sounds plausable... any more Myths you can
bust Boomer?

--
--

My Web Site: http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/



"Richard Ryerson" > wrote in message
...
> Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?
>
> Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?
>
> I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.
>
> -Rick
>
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> > or nitrates? "
> >
> > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor
last
> month. He said
> > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the
product
> is interfering
> > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
> actually still
> > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
> more analytical
> > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
> >
> >
> > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
> >
> > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically
non-toxic
> in seawater, as
> > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been
a
> myth for decades
> > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
> FW.
> > --
> > Boomer
> >
> > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> >
> > Want to See More ?
> > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> > www.coralrealm.com
> >
> > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
> > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
> > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
> > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
> > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
> > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
> > :
> > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
> >
> >
>
>

[Dr. Drudge]

Boomer- my spectrophotometer is in the shop right now- can I borrow yours?
; )

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> or nitrates? "
>
> No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
month. He said
> it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
is interfering
> with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
actually still
> there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
more analytical
> means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
>
>
> "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
>
> Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
in seawater, as
> it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
myth for decades
> that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
FW.
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
> : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
> : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
> : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
> : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
> :
> : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
>
>

[Dr. Drudge]

Boomer- my spectrophotometer is in the shop right now- can I borrow yours?
; )

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> or nitrates? "
>
> No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
month. He said
> it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
is interfering
> with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
actually still
> there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
more analytical
> means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
>
>
> "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
>
> Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
in seawater, as
> it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
myth for decades
> that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
FW.
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
> : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
> : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
> : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
> : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
> :
> : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
>
>

[Boomer]

"I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic:

No it is not. That doesn't mean let run off the scale.You still want it at 0. Most of the
so called Nitrite deaths are just delayed ammonia poisoning

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Richard Ryerson" > wrote in message
...
: Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?
:
: Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?
:
: I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.
:
: -Rick
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > or nitrates? "
: >
: > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
: month. He said
: > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
: is interfering
: > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
: actually still
: > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
: more analytical
: > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
: >
: >
: > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
: >
: > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
: in seawater, as
: > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
: myth for decades
: > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
: FW.
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
: ...
: > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
: > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
: > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
: > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
: > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
: > :
: > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
: >
: >
:
:

[Boomer]

I don't have one Dr.. I just talk to people that do :-)

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Dr. Drudge" > wrote in message
t...
: Boomer- my spectrophotometer is in the shop right now- can I borrow yours?
: ; )
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > or nitrates? "
: >
: > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
: month. He said
: > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
: is interfering
: > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
: actually still
: > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
: more analytical
: > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
: >
: >
: > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
: >
: > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
: in seawater, as
: > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
: myth for decades
: > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
: FW.
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
: ...
: > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
: > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
: > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
: > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
: > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
: > :
: > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
: >
: >
:
:
:

[Pszemol]

Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> "I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic:
>
> No it is not. That doesn't mean let run off the scale.You still want it at 0. Most of the
> so called Nitrite deaths are just delayed ammonia poisoning
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "Richard Ryerson" > wrote in message
> ...
> : Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?
> :
> : Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?
> :
> : I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.
> :
> : -Rick
> :
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : > or nitrates? "
> : >
> : > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
> : month. He said
> : > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
> : is interfering
> : > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
> : actually still
> : > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
> : more analytical
> : > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
> : >
> : >
> : > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
> : >
> : > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
> : in seawater, as
> : > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
> : myth for decades
> : > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
> : FW.
> : > --
> : > Boomer
> : >
> : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : >
> : > Want to See More ?
> : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > www.coralrealm.com
> : >
> : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
> : > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
> : > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
> : > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
> : > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
> : > :
> : > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
> And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
> ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?

i *think* (we all know i dont do chemistry) the real phrase should be nitrite is not that
toxic, implying a comparison between ammonia/nitrite yes if you have high nitrite levels
it will harm your larva, and yes you can get high nitrite levels without having ammonia.
what levels equal high depend on the fish, clowns can do ok in 1ppm ammonia or nitrite
though you shouldnt sustain either. several others wont do well at 1ppm of either.

--
Richard Reynolds

[Boomer]

"Is it true for larvae tanks as well?

It depends on species, pH, temp Salinity etc.."

"And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?"

Because the ammonia does damage and fish are often not able to recuperate from such
damage. Also, fish often don't die until exposed for 3-4 days or more from toxic levels of
Ammonia. It is around this time you see high Nitrite levels.

Here is some real data;


Ammonia

"lethal limits for many teleost fish range from 0.07 mg NH-3-N for fry to 1.4 mg / l NH3-N
for juveniles.Values of approximately .2-.4 mg / l NH-3-N are typical"

Many marine inverts can take much higher levels. "embryonic developed sea urchins were
retarded at .33 mg total NH-4-N. The larvae, however, were normal. " " a gastropod whelk
was not killed within 7 days at 262.5 mg / l NH4-N" " a bivalve mollusk, oyster and
quahog, tolerated levels to 110-880 mg / l NH4-N, with 50 % deaths after 96 hr. "a mysid
shrimp % survived after 1 hr at 52.5 mg / l NH4-N...an on and on.

It depends on species, salinity, temp, concentration and time length of exposure

Nitrite.

Sal****er Quahog = 1,190 NO2-N for 96 hr, 50 Mortality.

Sal****er American Oyster = 798.00 NO2-N, 96 hr, 50 % Mortality

Freshwater Malaysian Prawn (larvae) = 8.6mg / l NO2-N 96 hr, 50 % Mortality

Sal****er Salmon (Chinook) =1070 .00 48 hr 10 % Mortality

Freshwater Salmon (Chinook, same exact species of fish) =19.00 mg / l NO2-N 48hrs 50 %
Mortality

In another study, no mortalities occurred in their tested animals (yearling Coho Salmon )
in 48 hrs at 29.8 mg / l NO2-N and choride at 261mg / l. other Salmon, exposed to 3.8 mg
/ l NO2-N and 2.5 mg / l Cl- showed 58 % mortality in 12 hr.

When you or any animal receives a toxic/lethal level it does not mean you die
immediately, damage still continues, so death is often delayed.
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
: And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
: ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > "I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic:
: >
: > No it is not. That doesn't mean let run off the scale.You still want it at 0. Most of
the
: > so called Nitrite deaths are just delayed ammonia poisoning
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "Richard Ryerson" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > : Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?
: > :
: > : Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?
: > :
: > : I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.
: > :
: > : -Rick
: > :
: > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > : ...
: > : > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > : > or nitrates? "
: > : >
: > : > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
: > : month. He said
: > : > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
: > : is interfering
: > : > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
: > : actually still
: > : > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
: > : more analytical
: > : > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
: > : >
: > : > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
: > : in seawater, as
: > : > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
: > : myth for decades
: > : > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
: > : FW.
: > : > --
: > : > Boomer
: > : >
: > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: > : >
: > : > Want to See More ?
: > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > : > www.coralrealm.com
: > : >
: > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > : > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
: > : ...
: > : > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
: > : > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
: > : > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
: > : > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
: > : > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > : > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
: > : > :
: > : > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >

[Pszemol]

Thank you for this info.

I have some questions to correct interpreting data you have provided.
The numbers without the units were still in mg per liter (mg / l), right?
Like: Sal****er American Oyster = 798.00 NO2-N, 96 hr, 50 % Mortality
Should I read it as 798.00 mg/l of No2- ?
Does 'N' sufix mean the data is expressed in mg of N atoms, not whole NO2- ion?
Could you please explain?

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> "Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
>
> It depends on species, pH, temp Salinity etc.."
>
> "And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
> ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?"
>
> Because the ammonia does damage and fish are often not able to recuperate from such
> damage. Also, fish often don't die until exposed for 3-4 days or more from toxic levels of
> Ammonia. It is around this time you see high Nitrite levels.
>
> Here is some real data;
>
>
> Ammonia
>
> "lethal limits for many teleost fish range from 0.07 mg NH-3-N for fry to 1.4 mg / l NH3-N
> for juveniles.Values of approximately .2-.4 mg / l NH-3-N are typical"
>
> Many marine inverts can take much higher levels. "embryonic developed sea urchins were
> retarded at .33 mg total NH-4-N. The larvae, however, were normal. " " a gastropod whelk
> was not killed within 7 days at 262.5 mg / l NH4-N" " a bivalve mollusk, oyster and
> quahog, tolerated levels to 110-880 mg / l NH4-N, with 50 % deaths after 96 hr. "a mysid
> shrimp % survived after 1 hr at 52.5 mg / l NH4-N...an on and on.
>
> It depends on species, salinity, temp, concentration and time length of exposure
>
> Nitrite.
>
> Sal****er Quahog = 1,190 NO2-N for 96 hr, 50 Mortality.
>
> Sal****er American Oyster = 798.00 NO2-N, 96 hr, 50 % Mortality
>
> Freshwater Malaysian Prawn (larvae) = 8.6mg / l NO2-N 96 hr, 50 % Mortality
>
> Sal****er Salmon (Chinook) =1070 .00 48 hr 10 % Mortality
>
> Freshwater Salmon (Chinook, same exact species of fish) =19.00 mg / l NO2-N 48hrs 50 %
> Mortality
>
> In another study, no mortalities occurred in their tested animals (yearling Coho Salmon )
> in 48 hrs at 29.8 mg / l NO2-N and choride at 261mg / l. other Salmon, exposed to 3.8 mg
> / l NO2-N and 2.5 mg / l Cl- showed 58 % mortality in 12 hr.
>
> When you or any animal receives a toxic/lethal level it does not mean you die
> immediately, damage still continues, so death is often delayed.
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
> : Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
> : And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
> : ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?
> :
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
> : > "I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic:
> : >
> : > No it is not. That doesn't mean let run off the scale.You still want it at 0. Most of
> the
> : > so called Nitrite deaths are just delayed ammonia poisoning
> : >
> : > --
> : > Boomer
> : >
> : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : >
> : > Want to See More ?
> : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > www.coralrealm.com
> : >
> : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > "Richard Ryerson" > wrote in message
> : > ...
> : > : Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?
> : > :
> : > : Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?
> : > :
> : > : I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.
> : > :
> : > : -Rick
> : > :
> : > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : > : ...
> : > : > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : > : > or nitrates? "
> : > : >
> : > : > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
> : > : month. He said
> : > : > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
> : > : is interfering
> : > : > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
> : > : actually still
> : > : > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
> : > : more analytical
> : > : > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
> : > : >
> : > : > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
> : > : in seawater, as
> : > : > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
> : > : myth for decades
> : > : > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
> : > : FW.
> : > : > --
> : > : > Boomer
> : > : >
> : > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : > : >
> : > : > Want to See More ?
> : > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > : > www.coralrealm.com
> : > : >
> : > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > : > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> : > : ...
> : > : > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
> : > : > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
> : > : > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
> : > : > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
> : > : > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
> : > : > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
> : > : > :
> : > : > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > :
> : > :
> : >
> : >
>
>

[Boomer]

"The numbers without the units were still in mg per liter (mg / l), right?"

Yes, I guess I forgot to put that in

"Should I read it as 798.00 mg/l of NO2- ?"

Should I read it as 798.00 mg/l of NO2- N

"Does 'N' sufix mean the data is expressed in mg of N atoms, not whole NO2- ion?
Could you please explain?"

Yes, kinda' . Chemist are only concerned with the amount of N so they leave out the O2,
same for NO3-N (leave out the O3) and NH4-N ( leave out the H4)

1 mg / l NO2 -N = 3.3 mg / l NO2

1 mg / l NO3-N = 4.4 mg / l NO3

1mg / lNH4-N = 1.3 mg/ l NH4

How it is calculated for NO2

N = 14 Molecule Weight

O2 = 2 x 16 = 32 MW

So, 14 + (2 x 16) = 46 MW

46 /14 = 3.3 conversion #

I an old post I think I gave 2.2 instead of 3.3, which is incorrect.


--
Boomer

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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: Thank you for this info.
:
: I have some questions to correct interpreting data you have provided.
: The numbers without the units were still in mg per liter (mg / l), right?
: Like: Sal****er American Oyster = 798.00 NO2-N, 96 hr, 50 % Mortality
: Should I read it as 798.00 mg/l of No2- ?
: Does 'N' sufix mean the data is expressed in mg of N atoms, not whole NO2- ion?
: Could you please explain?
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > "Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
: >
: > It depends on species, pH, temp Salinity etc.."
: >
: > "And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
: > ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?"
: >
: > Because the ammonia does damage and fish are often not able to recuperate from such
: > damage. Also, fish often don't die until exposed for 3-4 days or more from toxic
levels of
: > Ammonia. It is around this time you see high Nitrite levels.
: >
: > Here is some real data;
: >
: >
: > Ammonia
: >
: > "lethal limits for many teleost fish range from 0.07 mg NH-3-N for fry to 1.4 mg / l
NH3-N
: > for juveniles.Values of approximately .2-.4 mg / l NH-3-N are typical"
: >
: > Many marine inverts can take much higher levels. "embryonic developed sea urchins
were
: > retarded at .33 mg total NH-4-N. The larvae, however, were normal. " " a gastropod
whelk
: > was not killed within 7 days at 262.5 mg / l NH4-N" " a bivalve mollusk, oyster and
: > quahog, tolerated levels to 110-880 mg / l NH4-N, with 50 % deaths after 96 hr. "a
mysid
: > shrimp % survived after 1 hr at 52.5 mg / l NH4-N...an on and on.
: >
: > It depends on species, salinity, temp, concentration and time length of exposure
: >
: > Nitrite.
: >
: > Sal****er Quahog = 1,190 NO2-N for 96 hr, 50 Mortality.
: >
: > Sal****er American Oyster = 798.00 NO2-N, 96 hr, 50 % Mortality
: >
: > Freshwater Malaysian Prawn (larvae) = 8.6mg / l NO2-N 96 hr, 50 % Mortality
: >
: > Sal****er Salmon (Chinook) =1070 .00 48 hr 10 % Mortality
: >
: > Freshwater Salmon (Chinook, same exact species of fish) =19.00 mg / l NO2-N 48hrs 50 %
: > Mortality
: >
: > In another study, no mortalities occurred in their tested animals (yearling Coho
Salmon )
: > in 48 hrs at 29.8 mg / l NO2-N and choride at 261mg / l. other Salmon, exposed to 3.8
mg
: > / l NO2-N and 2.5 mg / l Cl- showed 58 % mortality in 12 hr.
: >
: > When you or any animal receives a toxic/lethal level it does not mean you die
: > immediately, damage still continues, so death is often delayed.
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: > : Is it true for larvae tanks as well?
: > : And how can it be ammonia poisoning if there is no detectable
: > : ammonia but deaths still occurs, at elevated nitrite levels?
: > :
: > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > : > "I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic:
: > : >
: > : > No it is not. That doesn't mean let run off the scale.You still want it at 0. Most
of
: > the
: > : > so called Nitrite deaths are just delayed ammonia poisoning
: > : >
: > : > --
: > : > Boomer
: > : >
: > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: > : >
: > : > Want to See More ?
: > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > : > www.coralrealm.com
: > : >
: > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > : > "Richard Ryerson" > wrote in message
: > : > ...
: > : > : Nitrite (NO2-) is non-toxic in seawater?
: > : > :
: > : > : Do you mean nitrate (NO3-)?
: > : > :
: > : > : I have always thought NO2 Nitrite was toxic.
: > : > :
: > : > : -Rick
: > : > :
: > : > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > : > : ...
: > : > : > "Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > : > : > or nitrates? "
: > : > : >
: > : > : > No, it will not remove nitrites or nitrates. I talked to the inventor last
: > : > : month. He said
: > : > : > it is a line of BS from Kordon. What we have found out is that the product
: > : > : is interfering
: > : > : > with the test kits giving false readings that it is gone, when it is
: > : > : actually still
: > : > : > there.If you use other means for testing rather than the common kit, but
: > : > : more analytical
: > : > : > means, such as a spectrophotometer, it is still there.
: > : > : >
: > : > : >
: > : > : > "BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?"
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Quite high, much higher than you kit, as nitrite is basically non-toxic
: > : > : in seawater, as
: > : > : > it has to compete with the chloride ion, which always wins. It has been a
: > : > : myth for decades
: > : > : > that nitrite is much more toxic in SW than FW. It is much more toxic in
: > : > : FW.
: > : > : > --
: > : > : > Boomer
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > : > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Want to See More ?
: > : > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > : > : > www.coralrealm.com
: > : > : >
: > : > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > : > : > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
: > : > : ...
: > : > : > : I have noticed Amquel+ is advertised as to deal with not
: > : > : > : only amonia (which is explained as to form a non-toxic
: > : > : > : compound accessible to nitrifying bacteria) but also
: > : > : > : good to deal with nitrite and nitrates...
: > : > : > : Anybody knows how this product reacts with nitrites
: > : > : > : or nitrates? What are the products of the reaction?
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : BTW - what are toxic levels of nitrite for living critters?
: > : > : >
: > : > : >
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : >
: > : >
: >
: >

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> "The numbers without the units were still in mg per liter (mg / l), right?"
>
> Yes, I guess I forgot to put that in

ok.

> "Does 'N' sufix mean the data is expressed in mg of N atoms, not whole NO2- ion?
> Could you please explain?"
>
> Yes, kinda' . Chemist are only concerned with the amount of N so they leave out the O2,
> same for NO3-N (leave out the O3) and NH4-N ( leave out the H4)

That is what I was thinking. So it makes big difference if we are talking
about mg/l of NO2- instead of mg/l of NO2-N. What about regular aquarium
tests - are they calibrated in whole ammonia, nitrite ions or just mg of N?

Thanks.

[Boomer]

". What about regular aquarium
tests - are they calibrated in whole ammonia, nitrite ions or just mg of N?"

That has been an issue for years, which I have posted to many times.You will find both
types of kits in this hobby, i.e, NO3 and NO3-N. This is where people often get rather
made, "I have two kits and they both read differently, they are garbage, why can't we get
a kit that works"......."Your Nitrate is way to high get it down"

You need to look at the instructions. If it is a, i.e, NO3-N ( or backwards N-NO3) the
kit it will say so. If it says nothing, 99% of the time it is a NO3 kit. In this hobby we
normally speak in terms of N, i.e NO2-N, NO3-N.etc. I might add that some phosphate kits
are the same way, i.e., PO4-P or PO4, most by far are PO4. Water std test methods around
the world use N. Most books and articles in this hobby use N but not all so you need to be
careful, same for SG (Specific Gravity) levels



--
Boomer

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Please Join Our Growing Membership
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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > "The numbers without the units were still in mg per liter (mg / l), right?"
: >
: > Yes, I guess I forgot to put that in
:
: ok.
:
: > "Does 'N' sufix mean the data is expressed in mg of N atoms, not whole NO2- ion?
: > Could you please explain?"
: >
: > Yes, kinda' . Chemist are only concerned with the amount of N so they leave out the
O2,
: > same for NO3-N (leave out the O3) and NH4-N ( leave out the H4)
:
: That is what I was thinking. So it makes big difference if we are talking
: about mg/l of NO2- instead of mg/l of NO2-N. What about regular aquarium
: tests - are they calibrated in whole ammonia, nitrite ions or just mg of N?
:
: Thanks.

[Pszemol]

Thanks Boomer for very detailed explanations.

I have one more question about Amquel+ or Prime or any
other water conditioner capturing free ammonia into ions.
What will happen when ammonia ion is captured then by
bacteria and processed into nitrites/nitrates...
Ammonia is missing from the original mixture, is the
Prime/Amquel+ recovered to capture more free ammonia
produced in the system or something happens to deactivate
Prime/Amquel+ causing the need to repeat the dose?

I am mostly concerned with water conditioning in the
closed systems like planton cultures and similar...
Will chemicals accumulate when I dose Prime every day?

Do you maybe know the answer to this puzzling question?

[Richard Reynolds]

> Thanks Boomer for very detailed explanations.

yea !!!!

> I am mostly concerned with water conditioning in the
> closed systems like planton cultures and similar...
> Will chemicals accumulate when I dose Prime every day?

once again a non chemistry prospective, prime is nice but I like amquel+ plus better for
this. there are actually many reasons but a nice one the less consentrated means you can
just drip amquel and ro/di 24/7 and you dont have to worry about wierd stuff, kordan has
notes on how much you can/should add to ro/di (actually I think they recomend distilled
ive been using ro/di with no problems) also one of the nice things about the amquel+
plus(maybee amquel+ also but not prime or amquel) is it includes an amount of buffer to
offset itself. however your cultures should be divided often not because of any left over
or acculmulated prime/amquel but to keep contamination down, and to keep your cultures in
the growth phase.

> Do you maybe know the answer to this puzzling question?

if you havent been there rotifer.com has some info on this they grow way more than you or
I would ever need, and while they use ClorAm-X everything ive read shows that as the same
thing, a note from another discussion of this topic the ClorAm-X also converts nitrite to
nitrate to offset the nitrite in the IA.


--
Richard Reynolds

[Boomer]

First, Amquel + and Amquel are not quite the same. The + contains some buffers to help
keep the pH up. It is also the + that claims to remove Nitrate, which it doesn't, it just
masks the test kit. giving false readings. If you checked the sample water by other
analytical means the Nitrate is still there. Prime is not the same thing as Amquel and is
more sulfate base than Amquel and is why it smells more sulfate like. SeaChem has never
given an reaction series as to what it is and what the end products are.The dosage
required depends on concentration of the chloramines. High levels of chloramines will not
be removed by a single std dosage of Prime. Prime is SeaChems short answer to Amquel,
which still has patent rights.

Amquel is hydroxymethanesulfonate, which reacts with Ammonia and is a very complicated
chemical issue.Even the inventor is not sure of all the reaction and reaction products. In
short it ends up producing aminomethanesulfonate

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --- > H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

This product is an Amine.Your tank has many other types of amines.You know what some of
them are, i.e. Vitamins are amines, all of which can go through normal bacterial
nitrification. The ammonia tied up in the amine makes it nontoxic.The normal break down
and bacterial nitrification will not yield all the ammonia at once or cause it to get to
toxic levels later. Ammonia will show up but more than likely will not be enough at any
one time to show measurable amounts. If all the ammonia in the water reacts with Amquel or
Prime there will be none there to measure but it is still there, tied up in the
aminomethanesulfonate and bacteria will still get it,only later.That tells you that if you
were trying to establish a bio-filter and added prime or Amquel, during the cycling , it
would be able to handle only very small bio-load. Similarly the bacterial population
density would be much smaller.Thus it would take much longer in time to get a well
established bio-filter. If you already had a well established bio-filter, in a sense, you
would be starving it, thus lowering its population density. You would not want to use this
stuff when trying to establish bio-filter. Its real purpose is to just remove Chloramines
and Chlorine from tap water or in an emergency, when for some reason, the ammonia levels
have gotten high , i.e.. something died.. Then you should stop using it.

You should not be dosing Prime or Amquel every day, that is not what it was designed for.
If you need to dose it every day there is a problem with you culture system. Some culture
people use it all the time but IMHO the system isn't set up right. If you have no ammonia
and are adding it just in case the ammonia_may_go up, I have seen no data on what happens
to it or how long it remains active. It is pretty much non-toxic from what I've seen.

Here is more on Amquel, which is the same exact thing as ClorAm-X

http://www.cloram-x.com/techdoc.htm
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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Please Join Our Growing Membership
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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: Thanks Boomer for very detailed explanations.
:
: I have one more question about Amquel+ or Prime or any
: other water conditioner capturing free ammonia into ions.
: What will happen when ammonia ion is captured then by
: bacteria and processed into nitrites/nitrates...
: Ammonia is missing from the original mixture, is the
: Prime/Amquel+ recovered to capture more free ammonia
: produced in the system or something happens to deactivate
: Prime/Amquel+ causing the need to repeat the dose?
:
: I am mostly concerned with water conditioning in the
: closed systems like planton cultures and similar...
: Will chemicals accumulate when I dose Prime every day?
:
: Do you maybe know the answer to this puzzling question?