Fish load for new 5g tank

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

I'm just setting up a not too bright tank 25/25/40cm
(~10/10/15") with sand, plants, wood, leafs, 7W energy
lamp, 25W heater. Relating to fish I'm thinking about 7
Ember Tetras or 7-8 Mosquito Rasboras.

How are you keeping your(s)? Filter flow y/n, water
parameters, temperature, food..?

Thanks in advance.

--
cu
Marco

[Altum]

Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.

For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
light to grow plants, 15-20gph filter flow from a nanofilter or
internal filter, temps, pH and food according to the fish, change 50%
of the water weekly.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Altum > wrote:
>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>
>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>light to grow plants,

I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
"watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
per cubic foot.

I like it :-)


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> Altum > wrote:
>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>
>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>light to grow plants,
>
> I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
> use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
> "watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
> per cubic foot.
>
> I like it :-)

I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more than
seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk


> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more than
>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).

Why would you use small lights on a big tank? 2 x 150W MH would be just
about perfect no? Seven tubes would work though.

See what a perceft formula it is ? :-)


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more
> >than
>>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).
>
> Why would you use small lights on a big tank? 2 x 150W MH would be just
> about perfect no? Seven tubes would work though.
>
> See what a perceft formula it is ? :-)
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net


I'm starting to think you're as crazy as I am ;~)

.... off to look at 150W metal halides
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
NetMax > wrote:
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> >I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more
>> >than
>>>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).
>>
>> Why would you use small lights on a big tank? 2 x 150W MH would be just
>> about perfect no? Seven tubes would work though.
>>
>> See what a perceft formula it is ? :-)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
>
>
>I'm starting to think you're as crazy as I am ;~)
>
>... off to look at 150W metal halides
>--
>www.NetMax.tk
>
>

Sometimes another point of view about the same facts yeilds
a different conclusion. :-)


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember
> Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?

About fish.

> I've never kept either of those
> fish but I do run small tanks.

I'm familiar with small tanks.

> For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact
> fluorescent light to grow plants

Well, a similar tank with Corydoras pygmaeus, some Anubias,
Java Moss, Sagittaria subulata and a small Lemna is running
well with 5W. And Corydoras usually _prefer_ the twilight.

> , 15-20gph filter flow
> from a nanofilter or internal filter

Do Ember Tetras and_or Mosquito Rasborasthese like "standing
in floodlight" or "surfing in flowing water"..?

Thanks.
--
cu
Marco

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:33:44 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article . com>,
>Altum > wrote:
>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>
>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>light to grow plants,
>
>I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
>use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>"watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>per cubic foot.
>
>I like it :-)

I've always questioned the watts per gallon rule - it seems to me that
watts per depth of water would make more sense. The watts required for
a twenty high and a twenty long would be the same by the standard
rule, but I think the plants would know the difference and respond, or
not, accordingly.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:30:53 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article . com>,
>> Altum > wrote:
>>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>>
>>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>>light to grow plants,
>>
>> I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
>> use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>> "watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>> per cubic foot.
>>
>> I like it :-)
>
>I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more than
>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).

Rather that sunglasses, you and your fish might need night vision
goggles to see through the algae thickened water from all that light.

[Gill Passman]

Marco Schwarz wrote:
> Hi..
>
> I'm just setting up a not too bright tank 25/25/40cm
> (~10/10/15") with sand, plants, wood, leafs, 7W energy
> lamp, 25W heater. Relating to fish I'm thinking about 7
> Ember Tetras or 7-8 Mosquito Rasboras.
>
> How are you keeping your(s)? Filter flow y/n, water
> parameters, temperature, food..?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
One of the biggest problems that I have with my 2 5 gall tanks is
getting the balance between enough light for plants and not too much
light because of the heat of the water - haven't quite done it yet...so
expensive on plants...fish don't seem to care except if the temp gets
too hot. Heavy, on water changes because of the tank size and lack of
margin for error - plus I get a lot water loss through condensation as I
often keep the lids ajar to keep the temp under control - I do 10%
changes 3 times a week.

One of the tanks holds a betta and 4 Blue Eye Gertrude Rainbows (about
Neon tetra size) - the other is being used as a QT tank and currently
has two platys (that had multiplied to around 5 or 6 platys by the
following morning after I bought them - lol), and some more Blue Eye
Gertrudes (another 5 or 6) along with at least one fry....The QT tank
may well go back to just housing a single betta once the fry have grown
out and the other fish moved on...as I feel the current load is a bit
too much for a tank of this size. It should have just been the Platys
but the Gertrudes were a bit of an impulse buy and needed to go somewhere.

When you come to pick your fish, don't just consider the physical size,
you also need to look at territorial needs and how much swimming space
they need - for example I have a Dutch Ram that at just over 1 inch
could easily fit in one of the 5 galls but would hate the lack of space


JME
Gill

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> NetMax > wrote:
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> >I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more
>>> >than
>>>>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).
>>>
>>> Why would you use small lights on a big tank? 2 x 150W MH would be
>>> just
>>> about perfect no? Seven tubes would work though.
>>>
>>> See what a perceft formula it is ? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>>> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
>>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
>>
>>
>>I'm starting to think you're as crazy as I am ;~)
>>
>>... off to look at 150W metal halides
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
>
> Sometimes another point of view about the same facts yeilds
> a different conclusion. :-)

lol, I have noticed that this particular hobby lends itself to a few
different opinions *cough*.

I've got the driftwood dry-fitted (it took 5 pieces, 3 to 5 feet long,
and I'm seriously wishing my tank sizes were a little closer to my
ambitions ;~). I'm investigating the Luxeon LEDS, but I'll still need
some smaller pot lights to beam around sections of wood to planters built
into the structure. I'm thinking of making a conventional glass canopy.
Then an open SS frame, similar to what you would see over a concert hall
or a stage, so that I can easily position various lights around (for the
pot lights). At the top of the frame, one or two conventional 40W tubes.
Then a SS 'wrapper' over the whole thing which would house the Luxeons
(and heat sink the hot little buggers).

That or I'll pendant a couple of MH on a 500W dimmer and be done with it.
I'm just not keen on the glare off of the glass canopy in this
arrangement, and I'm not keen on running without a cover of some type to
keep the fish in. The Monos can easily reach exit velocities (and my cat
might go for an accidental swim ;~).


Sorry I got off-topic. I really don't know much about stocking a 5g
tank. My water change pail is bigger than 5g. Life really starts around
60g. You have to be knowlegable to properly manage a 20g, but you have
to be *talented* to properly manage a 5g tank (either that or be a little
bits crazy which is the only thing I could claim to help me ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:30:53 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article . com>,
>>> Altum > wrote:
>>>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito
>>>>Rasboras?
>>>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>>>
>>>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>>>light to grow plants,
>>>
>>> I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most
>>> people
>>> use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>>> "watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>>> per cubic foot.
>>>
>>> I like it :-)
>>
>>I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more than
>>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).
>
> Rather that sunglasses, you and your fish might need night vision
> goggles to see through the algae thickened water from all that light.


It sounds like a lot, but it would actually only be around 3wpg, and
dimmed by the 8" to the water and the 24" depth. With some CO2, it would
make a very nice garden. I like looking at gardens, but I'm not keen on
spending too much time pruning, so I try to make my lighting more subtle,
less 'intense' ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:30:53 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article . com>,
>>> Altum > wrote:
>>>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>>>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>>>
>>>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>>>light to grow plants,
>>>
>>> I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
>>> use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>>> "watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>>> per cubic foot.
>>>
>>> I like it :-)
>>
>>I dunno. That means I need 300W on my 15cu.ft. 120g! That's more than
>>seven 40W tubes (get me my sunglasses, get my fish sunglasses ;~).
>
>Rather that sunglasses, you and your fish might need night vision
>goggles to see through the algae thickened water from all that light.

Without a lot of healthy plants, yes. But, in a tank of healthy plants
properly cared for, no. I have such a tank right behind me, 240W
in a 40 gallon tank. Actuall the left hand side of the tank has
4 watts per gallon and the right had side has 8 watts per gallon.

No algae.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:33:44 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>>In article . com>,
>>Altum > wrote:
>>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>>
>>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>>light to grow plants,
>>
>>I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
>>use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>>"watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>>per cubic foot.
>>
>>I like it :-)
>
> I've always questioned the watts per gallon rule - it seems to me that
> watts per depth of water would make more sense. The watts required for
> a twenty high and a twenty long would be the same by the standard
> rule, but I think the plants would know the difference and respond, or
> not, accordingly.


Not usually mentioned, but that wpg guideline is mostly targeted at tank
depths of 18-22" which encompasses a huge % of tanks. In the trade,
people with smaller tanks are typically upgrading as their interest in
the hobby and gardening evolves, so they move into the 18-22" range.
Anyone buying larger tanks (24-36") is assumed to be investing as much
research as money, and they would hopefully be more aware of the
attenuation caused by light source distance to water, water depth, lamp
CRI, Kelvin spectrum etc. Some enthusiasts then take their hobby into a
miniature mode, making tiny gardens out of 2-3g tanks, using anubias,
slow growing crypts etc. At that point they usually know a lot about
what they are doing.

I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.) and then there is
the study of which spectrum works best (as water attenuates higher
frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in this - but most
aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it goes....). Then
you get into the need for regular cyclical variation (sunrise/sunset),
non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and seasonal cyclical
variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming and algae. I'm a
techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>I've got the driftwood dry-fitted (it took 5 pieces, 3 to 5 feet long,
>and I'm seriously wishing my tank sizes were a little closer to my
>ambitions ;~). I'm investigating the Luxeon LEDS, but I'll still need
>some smaller pot lights to beam around sections of wood to planters built
>into the structure. I'm thinking of making a conventional glass canopy.
>Then an open SS frame, similar to what you would see over a concert hall
>or a stage, so that I can easily position various lights around (for the
>pot lights). At the top of the frame, one or two conventional 40W tubes.
>Then a SS 'wrapper' over the whole thing which would house the Luxeons
>(and heat sink the hot little buggers).
>
>That or I'll pendant a couple of MH on a 500W dimmer and be done with it.

Bzzzzt, nope, you can't dim HID lamps. Just incandescents.

>I'm just not keen on the glare off of the glass canopy in this
>arrangement, and I'm not keen on running without a cover of some type to
>keep the fish in. The Monos can easily reach exit velocities (and my cat
>might go for an accidental swim ;~).
>
>
>Sorry I got off-topic. I really don't know much about stocking a 5g
>tank. My water change pail is bigger than 5g. Life really starts around
>60g. You have to be knowlegable to properly manage a 20g, but you have
>to be *talented* to properly manage a 5g tank (either that or be a little
>bits crazy which is the only thing I could claim to help me ;~).

Fishless tanks of any size with just plants are easy too. I have a 1.5L
square cookie jar onmy desk with some scraps of plants, no fish. I haven't
touchedit in 3 months and it's crystal clear and pearling (minorly)
sitting under a 13W screw in fluorescent desklamp. Fish are messy *******s.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
>wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.) and then there is
>the study of which spectrum works best (as water attenuates higher
>frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in this - but most
>aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it goes....). Then
>you get into the need for regular cyclical variation (sunrise/sunset),
>non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and seasonal cyclical
>variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming and algae. I'm a
>techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).

And it all means absolutley nothing.

If you look at the past 20 years of "why do I have algae" and
"why don't my plants grow" on the net you'll see we've tried
absolutely eveyrthing.

The color and some some extent the intensity of light hasn't
matered. Fertilization, properly, is the only thing that
has made a difference. Feed the plants and you won't
have algae. But they need a balanced diet! No Fe but
lots of maros = algae. Lots of iron and no macros = algae.

If there was a magic forumula that saud "use this color
bulb withthis CRI and the K and you'll be done" then
we'd all be saying it.

Cloudy days don't matter, the "Sunshine burst" of a high blast
of light at noon, cyclic variation... these are all annoyences
to plants, they're machines that convert chemical and lights
to leaves, and the more constant and consistant these are the
better they can be expected to do.

Fancy light doesn't matter, co2 doesn't matter. Without these
you can still have a spectacular algae free tank. Yes you'll
have faster growth and bigger plants with them, but we managed
for 100 years to get along without them.

But, don't feed the plants properly and they will not do well,
may die and you'll have algae.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Liz McGuire]

FWIW, if the Mosquito Rasboras are anything like Harlequin Rasboras in
terms of activity level, I think a 5g might be a little small for them
(they seem to like action). By the same token, if the Ember Tetras
are like Neon Tetras, again, in terms of activity level, then a few of
these in a 5g is probably OK.

Based solely on my experience with my Neons and my Harlequins...

FWIW,

Liz


Marco Schwarz wrote:
>
> > Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember
> > Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>
> About fish.

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I've got the driftwood dry-fitted (it took 5 pieces, 3 to 5 feet long,
>>and I'm seriously wishing my tank sizes were a little closer to my
>>ambitions ;~). I'm investigating the Luxeon LEDS, but I'll still need
>>some smaller pot lights to beam around sections of wood to planters
>>built
>>into the structure. I'm thinking of making a conventional glass
>>canopy.
>>Then an open SS frame, similar to what you would see over a concert
>>hall
>>or a stage, so that I can easily position various lights around (for
>>the
>>pot lights). At the top of the frame, one or two conventional 40W
>>tubes.
>>Then a SS 'wrapper' over the whole thing which would house the Luxeons
>>(and heat sink the hot little buggers).
>>
>>That or I'll pendant a couple of MH on a 500W dimmer and be done with
>>it.
>
> Bzzzzt, nope, you can't dim HID lamps. Just incandescents.

Well, you can't dim them through 'conventional' means, but I've never
been accusted of being conventional ;~)
http://www.advancetransformer.com/dynavision/overview/control.html
http://www.cbm-lighting-mfg.com/en/catalog/page_16.html
http://www.reefsolution.com/forums/printthread.php?t=19

If I'm going to the trouble of a staged programmable dc current source
for the Luzeons, an electronic ballast for the VHO lights should be a
breeze :o).

>>I'm just not keen on the glare off of the glass canopy in this
>>arrangement, and I'm not keen on running without a cover of some type
>>to
>>keep the fish in. The Monos can easily reach exit velocities (and my
>>cat
>>might go for an accidental swim ;~).
>>
>>
>>Sorry I got off-topic. I really don't know much about stocking a 5g
>>tank. My water change pail is bigger than 5g. Life really starts
>>around
>>60g. You have to be knowlegable to properly manage a 20g, but you have
>>to be *talented* to properly manage a 5g tank (either that or be a
>>little
>>bits crazy which is the only thing I could claim to help me ;~).
>
> Fishless tanks of any size with just plants are easy too. I have a 1.5L
> square cookie jar onmy desk with some scraps of plants, no fish. I
> haven't
> touchedit in 3 months and it's crystal clear and pearling (minorly)
> sitting under a 13W screw in fluorescent desklamp. Fish are messy
> *******s.

A few years ago, we had a poster who kept aquatic gardens, no fish. We
got her to post some pictures, and it was a fantastic collection of glass
cups to large vases, all filled with substrate, water and an assortment
of plants, aquatic, submerged and bog. It was quite a remarkable and
attractive set-up. She had obviously fine-tuned the process over many
years.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
>>wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.) and then there is
>>the study of which spectrum works best (as water attenuates higher
>>frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in this - but most
>>aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it goes....).
>>Then
>>you get into the need for regular cyclical variation (sunrise/sunset),
>>non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and seasonal cyclical
>>variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming and algae. I'm a
>>techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).
>
> And it all means absolutley nothing.
>
> If you look at the past 20 years of "why do I have algae" and
> "why don't my plants grow" on the net you'll see we've tried
> absolutely eveyrthing.
>
> The color and some some extent the intensity of light hasn't
> matered. Fertilization, properly, is the only thing that
> has made a difference. Feed the plants and you won't
> have algae. But they need a balanced diet! No Fe but
> lots of maros = algae. Lots of iron and no macros = algae.
>
> If there was a magic forumula that saud "use this color
> bulb withthis CRI and the K and you'll be done" then
> we'd all be saying it.
>
> Cloudy days don't matter, the "Sunshine burst" of a high blast
> of light at noon, cyclic variation... these are all annoyences
> to plants, they're machines that convert chemical and lights
> to leaves, and the more constant and consistant these are the
> better they can be expected to do.
>
> Fancy light doesn't matter, co2 doesn't matter. Without these
> you can still have a spectacular algae free tank. Yes you'll
> have faster growth and bigger plants with them, but we managed
> for 100 years to get along without them.
>
> But, don't feed the plants properly and they will not do well,
> may die and you'll have algae.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Yep, so many people are convinced they have to have CO2 (#&!^%). I
explain to folks, to think of plants as factories, a little slow to start
in the morning, a little slow to shut down at night, but wickedly
efficient in between. Algae is the hotdog vendor, highly mobile &
opportunistic. Let your tank start up with natural light, then have your
mains come on for the rest of the day. Ideally have your lights stage
off too (for the fish). In between, keep your factories fed and they
will starve the algae out of a food supply. However, if the factories
run out of an important ingredient, algae has an opportunity until the
plants have made their adaptations.

I'm convinced that every plant has a unique biological footprint (in the
trace elements they consume), but at the same time, they are highly
adaptable to different spectrums of foods. You only need to look at the
diversity of plant growth (leaf size, shape, location etc) which can be
achieved from the same plant grown in different conditions. Quite an
interesting science.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Altum]

Marco Schwarz wrote:

<snip>

> Do Ember Tetras and_or Mosquito Rasborasthese like "standing
> in floodlight" or "surfing in flowing water"..?

I wish I could even find Ember Tetras! I've seen some neat
microrasboras in my local fish store and eventually I'll have a tank
suitable for them.

Does this help any? These micro rasboras are in the same genus. Looks
like they prefer quiet water.
http://www.fnzas.org.nz/articles/fish_articles/dwarf_rasbora/

And I always like Mongabay when I'm trying to find biotope info. You
probably read it, but in case you didn't, here are the links.
http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Hyphessobrycon.html
http://fish.mongabay.com/rasboras.htm

[Altum]

NetMax wrote:

> Sorry I got off-topic. I really don't know much about stocking a 5g
> tank. My water change pail is bigger than 5g. Life really starts around
> 60g. You have to be knowlegable to properly manage a 20g, but you have
> to be *talented* to properly manage a 5g tank (either that or be a little
> bits crazy which is the only thing I could claim to help me ;~).

Guess I'm crazy. I've got two tanks smaller than my 5g water change
bucket! I love how easy tiny tanks are to run. Easy water changes,
minimal pruning, inexpensive. All you gotta do is lug two whole
gallons of water back and forth once a week. ;-)

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:33:44 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>>In article . com>,
>>>Altum > wrote:
>>>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito Rasboras?
>>>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>>>
>>>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact fluorescent
>>>>light to grow plants,
>>>
>>>I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most people
>>>use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>>>"watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>>>per cubic foot.
>>>
>>>I like it :-)
>>
>> I've always questioned the watts per gallon rule - it seems to me that
>> watts per depth of water would make more sense. The watts required for
>> a twenty high and a twenty long would be the same by the standard
>> rule, but I think the plants would know the difference and respond, or
>> not, accordingly.
>
>
> Not usually mentioned, but that wpg guideline is mostly targeted at tank
> depths of 18-22" which encompasses a huge % of tanks. In the trade,
> people with smaller tanks are typically upgrading as their interest in the
> hobby and gardening evolves, so they move into the 18-22" range. Anyone
> buying larger tanks (24-36") is assumed to be investing as much research
> as money, and they would hopefully be more aware of the attenuation caused
> by light source distance to water, water depth, lamp CRI, Kelvin spectrum
> etc. Some enthusiasts then take their hobby into a miniature mode, making
> tiny gardens out of 2-3g tanks, using anubias, slow growing crypts etc.
> At that point they usually know a lot about what they are doing.
>
> I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg, wp/sq.in.
> (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.)

I'm leaning towards the lumens per sq. inch camp. All you wpg guys are
Luddites. :)


> and then there is the study of which spectrum works best (as water
> attenuates higher frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in
> this - but most aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it
> goes....). Then you get into the need for regular cyclical variation
> (sunrise/sunset), non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and
> seasonal cyclical variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming
> and algae. I'm a techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Altum]

NetMax wrote:

> Yep, so many people are convinced they have to have CO2 (#&!^%). I
> explain to folks, to think of plants as factories, a little slow to start
> in the morning, a little slow to shut down at night, but wickedly
> efficient in between. Algae is the hotdog vendor, highly mobile &
> opportunistic. Let your tank start up with natural light, then have your
> mains come on for the rest of the day. Ideally have your lights stage
> off too (for the fish). In between, keep your factories fed and they
> will starve the algae out of a food supply. However, if the factories
> run out of an important ingredient, algae has an opportunity until the
> plants have made their adaptations.
>
> I'm convinced that every plant has a unique biological footprint (in the
> trace elements they consume), but at the same time, they are highly
> adaptable to different spectrums of foods. You only need to look at the
> diversity of plant growth (leaf size, shape, location etc) which can be
> achieved from the same plant grown in different conditions. Quite an
> interesting science.

And then there's the highly underrated allelopathy. Ever grown water
lettuce and watched green water clear almost magically? Factories have
ways of getting rid of unwanted hot dog vendors.

And yes, CO2 is highly overrated...until your sunlit plants suck all
the carbonates out of the water and the pH crashes to 6 when you miss a
couple of water changes.

[NetMax]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:33:44 +0000 (UTC),
>>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article . com>,
>>>>Altum > wrote:
>>>>>Are you asking about 5 gallon tanks or Ember Tetras/Mosquito
>>>>>Rasboras?
>>>>>I've never kept either of those fish but I do run small tanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>For my 5 gallon tanks in general, about 20-25W of compact
>>>>>fluorescent
>>>>>light to grow plants,
>>>>
>>>>I'm addressing only the lighting issue here. By convention most
>>>>people
>>>>use "watts per gallon" but I saw an intersting definition recently,
>>>>"watts per cubic foot". With "20" being the right number of watts
>>>>per cubic foot.
>>>>
>>>>I like it :-)
>>>
>>> I've always questioned the watts per gallon rule - it seems to me
>>> that
>>> watts per depth of water would make more sense. The watts required
>>> for
>>> a twenty high and a twenty long would be the same by the standard
>>> rule, but I think the plants would know the difference and respond,
>>> or
>>> not, accordingly.
>>
>>
>> Not usually mentioned, but that wpg guideline is mostly targeted at
>> tank depths of 18-22" which encompasses a huge % of tanks. In the
>> trade, people with smaller tanks are typically upgrading as their
>> interest in the hobby and gardening evolves, so they move into the
>> 18-22" range. Anyone buying larger tanks (24-36") is assumed to be
>> investing as much research as money, and they would hopefully be more
>> aware of the attenuation caused by light source distance to water,
>> water depth, lamp CRI, Kelvin spectrum etc. Some enthusiasts then
>> take their hobby into a miniature mode, making tiny gardens out of
>> 2-3g tanks, using anubias, slow growing crypts etc. At that point they
>> usually know a lot about what they are doing.
>>
>> I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
>> wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.)
>
> I'm leaning towards the lumens per sq. inch camp. All you wpg guys are
> Luddites. :)

lol, regardless of your measurement criteria, its effect is over-rated.
I have had wonderful planted tanks as low as 0.4wpg. It's always a
recipe, which needs to be tweaked to whatever environment is being
provided (imo).
--
www.NetMax.tk

>> and then there is the study of which spectrum works best (as water
>> attenuates higher frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved
>> in this - but most aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and
>> so it goes....). Then you get into the need for regular cyclical
>> variation (sunrise/sunset), non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy
>> days) and seasonal cyclical variation, and it's effects on plant
>> growth, blooming and algae. I'm a techie and most of it still goes
>> over my head ;~).
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>
>

[NetMax]

"Altum" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> Sorry I got off-topic. I really don't know much about stocking a 5g
>> tank. My water change pail is bigger than 5g. Life really starts
>> around
>> 60g. You have to be knowlegable to properly manage a 20g, but you
>> have
>> to be *talented* to properly manage a 5g tank (either that or be a
>> little
>> bits crazy which is the only thing I could claim to help me ;~).
>
> Guess I'm crazy. I've got two tanks smaller than my 5g water change
> bucket! I love how easy tiny tanks are to run. Easy water changes,
> minimal pruning, inexpensive. All you gotta do is lug two whole
> gallons of water back and forth once a week. ;-)


Big tanks or small, it's just a different recipe. A small tank recipe
(with fish) is more sensitive and mistakes are amplified, but if you have
that recipe down and your routine is consistent, then it works like a
charm, but it takes some talent.

The less work my tanks cause me, the more I like them :o), though the
idea of a 2g water change does sound enticing. I just need very *tiny*
fish and *tiny* plants, and the front pane would be a magnifying glass
;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:11:57 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
>>wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.) and then there is
>>the study of which spectrum works best (as water attenuates higher
>>frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in this - but most
>>aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it goes....). Then
>>you get into the need for regular cyclical variation (sunrise/sunset),
>>non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and seasonal cyclical
>>variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming and algae. I'm a
>>techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).
>
>And it all means absolutley nothing.
>
>If you look at the past 20 years of "why do I have algae" and
>"why don't my plants grow" on the net you'll see we've tried
>absolutely eveyrthing.
>
>The color and some some extent the intensity of light hasn't
>matered. Fertilization, properly, is the only thing that
>has made a difference. Feed the plants and you won't
>have algae. But they need a balanced diet! No Fe but
>lots of maros = algae. Lots of iron and no macros = algae.
>
>If there was a magic forumula that saud "use this color
>bulb withthis CRI and the K and you'll be done" then
>we'd all be saying it.
>
>Cloudy days don't matter, the "Sunshine burst" of a high blast
>of light at noon, cyclic variation... these are all annoyences
>to plants, they're machines that convert chemical and lights
>to leaves, and the more constant and consistant these are the
>better they can be expected to do.
>
>Fancy light doesn't matter, co2 doesn't matter. Without these
>you can still have a spectacular algae free tank. Yes you'll
>have faster growth and bigger plants with them, but we managed
>for 100 years to get along without them.
>
>But, don't feed the plants properly and they will not do well,
>may die and you'll have algae.

Now that we've established that "ideal" lighting and water
combinations for plants is over NetMax's head and a pointless pursuit
for Richard - help me out a little. I go for lots of plants in my
tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?

-- Mr Gardener

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:11:57 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>>>I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
>>>wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.) and then there is
>>>the study of which spectrum works best (as water attenuates higher
>>>frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in this - but
>>>most
>>>aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it goes....).
>>>Then
>>>you get into the need for regular cyclical variation (sunrise/sunset),
>>>non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and seasonal cyclical
>>>variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming and algae. I'm
>>>a
>>>techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).
>>
>>And it all means absolutley nothing.
>>
>>If you look at the past 20 years of "why do I have algae" and
>>"why don't my plants grow" on the net you'll see we've tried
>>absolutely eveyrthing.
>>
>>The color and some some extent the intensity of light hasn't
>>matered. Fertilization, properly, is the only thing that
>>has made a difference. Feed the plants and you won't
>>have algae. But they need a balanced diet! No Fe but
>>lots of maros = algae. Lots of iron and no macros = algae.
>>
>>If there was a magic forumula that saud "use this color
>>bulb withthis CRI and the K and you'll be done" then
>>we'd all be saying it.
>>
>>Cloudy days don't matter, the "Sunshine burst" of a high blast
>>of light at noon, cyclic variation... these are all annoyences
>>to plants, they're machines that convert chemical and lights
>>to leaves, and the more constant and consistant these are the
>>better they can be expected to do.
>>
>>Fancy light doesn't matter, co2 doesn't matter. Without these
>>you can still have a spectacular algae free tank. Yes you'll
>>have faster growth and bigger plants with them, but we managed
>>for 100 years to get along without them.
>>
>>But, don't feed the plants properly and they will not do well,
>>may die and you'll have algae.
>
> Now that we've established that "ideal" lighting and water
> combinations for plants is over NetMax's head and a pointless pursuit
> for Richard - help me out a little. I go for lots of plants in my
> tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
> challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
> angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
> configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
> my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
> I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
> plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
> when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
> beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
> lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
> lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
> 10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
> 10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
> Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
> between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
> viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Ahh - questions questions, and the Internet is full of information, so
lets filter some good information out (whether this gives you real
answers is another question ;~).
http://faq.thekrib.com/plant-lighting.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/spectra.html
http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/lighting1.html
http://www.mnsi.net/~waj/Lighting.html
http://www.trueaquariumplants.com/articles/aboutlight.asp
http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/faq.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/lights-wozniak.html
http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Light_Part_1.html
http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Light_Part_2.html
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/apr/features/2/default.asp
http://www.ahsupply.com/
http://www.science-projects.com/PhotosynPigments.htm
http://www.life.umd.edu/classroom/bsci124/lec7.html
http://www.lkraven.com/Aquarium/DIYLighting.htm
http://www.giesemann.de/GB_Leuchten.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/reflectors.html

I hope most of these links are still good. I have more :o)

I can tell you what I did when I was investigating this for my last DIY
canopy. The application was a 4 foot tank, my strategy (after all the
reading) was to provide them with a wide spectrum light so the plants can
use *whatever* they liked, my solution was 4 T-8 bulbs, my cost about
$12.50 US.

2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)

They operate in 2 banks, and most days I only use one bank of lamps.

hth, or will I leave you more confused ? ;~) Whichever (helped or
confused?) I can be counted on to do it again :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:14:52 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:11:57 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>>>I've read discussions and various web sites on pros/cons of wpg,
>>>>wp/sq.in. (surface calculation), wpv (volume cu.ft.) and then there is
>>>>the study of which spectrum works best (as water attenuates higher
>>>>frequencies faster than air, and plants have evolved in this - but
>>>>most
>>>>aquatic plants are very close to the surface, and so it goes....).
>>>>Then
>>>>you get into the need for regular cyclical variation (sunrise/sunset),
>>>>non-regular cyclical variation (cloudy days) and seasonal cyclical
>>>>variation, and it's effects on plant growth, blooming and algae. I'm
>>>>a
>>>>techie and most of it still goes over my head ;~).
>>>
>>>And it all means absolutley nothing.
>>>
>>>If you look at the past 20 years of "why do I have algae" and
>>>"why don't my plants grow" on the net you'll see we've tried
>>>absolutely eveyrthing.
>>>
>>>The color and some some extent the intensity of light hasn't
>>>matered. Fertilization, properly, is the only thing that
>>>has made a difference. Feed the plants and you won't
>>>have algae. But they need a balanced diet! No Fe but
>>>lots of maros = algae. Lots of iron and no macros = algae.
>>>
>>>If there was a magic forumula that saud "use this color
>>>bulb withthis CRI and the K and you'll be done" then
>>>we'd all be saying it.
>>>
>>>Cloudy days don't matter, the "Sunshine burst" of a high blast
>>>of light at noon, cyclic variation... these are all annoyences
>>>to plants, they're machines that convert chemical and lights
>>>to leaves, and the more constant and consistant these are the
>>>better they can be expected to do.
>>>
>>>Fancy light doesn't matter, co2 doesn't matter. Without these
>>>you can still have a spectacular algae free tank. Yes you'll
>>>have faster growth and bigger plants with them, but we managed
>>>for 100 years to get along without them.
>>>
>>>But, don't feed the plants properly and they will not do well,
>>>may die and you'll have algae.
>>
>> Now that we've established that "ideal" lighting and water
>> combinations for plants is over NetMax's head and a pointless pursuit
>> for Richard - help me out a little. I go for lots of plants in my
>> tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
>> challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
>> angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
>> configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
>> my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
>> I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
>> plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
>> when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
>> beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
>> lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
>> lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
>> 10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
>> 10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
>> Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
>> between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
>> viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>Ahh - questions questions, and the Internet is full of information, so
>lets filter some good information out (whether this gives you real
>answers is another question ;~).
>http://faq.thekrib.com/plant-lighting.html
>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/spectra.html
>http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm
>http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/lighting1.html
>http://www.mnsi.net/~waj/Lighting.html
>http://www.trueaquariumplants.com/articles/aboutlight.asp
>http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/faq.html
>http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/lights-wozniak.html
>http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Light_Part_1.html
>http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Light_Part_2.html
>http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/apr/features/2/default.asp
>http://www.ahsupply.com/
>http://www.science-projects.com/PhotosynPigments.htm
>http://www.life.umd.edu/classroom/bsci124/lec7.html
>http://www.lkraven.com/Aquarium/DIYLighting.htm
>http://www.giesemann.de/GB_Leuchten.html
>http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/reflectors.html
>
>I hope most of these links are still good. I have more :o)
>
>I can tell you what I did when I was investigating this for my last DIY
>canopy. The application was a 4 foot tank, my strategy (after all the
>reading) was to provide them with a wide spectrum light so the plants can
>use *whatever* they liked, my solution was 4 T-8 bulbs, my cost about
>$12.50 US.
>
>2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
>1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
>1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)
>
>They operate in 2 banks, and most days I only use one bank of lamps.
>
>hth, or will I leave you more confused ? ;~) Whichever (helped or
>confused?) I can be counted on to do it again :o).

Gee, tanks. Actually, I've visited most of those links, I see a few I
might while away my Sunday morning with while waiting for "the next
big Nor'Easter" to visit the coast. What I see in your list of lights
above is sticking to the 5000-6700 range . . . it's the 10,000 and
blue actinic light that is throwing me - I've always thought of those
in the realm of reef and marine tanks. When using traditional
fluorescent, as opposed to compacts, the full spectrum VitaLite was an
easy choice, in fact I just read something this morning about making
certain the bulb says full spectrum, rather than wide or broad
spectrum. Makes sense to me. Meanwhile, I'll stick with the middle of
the road 6000's.

I'm discovering that when NetMax says "it's over my head" and Richard
says "it's pointless", you guys are just getting started rather than
ending the discussion.

-- Mr Gardener

[Alpha]

>You have to be knowlegable to properly manage a 20g, but you have
> to be *talented* to properly manage a 5g tank (either that or be a little
> bits crazy which is the only thing I could claim to help me ;~).

I guess crazy and talented go together? I only keep 12 gallon Nano tanks.
Crazy.

[Altum]

Actinic/blue grows algae and zooxanthellae very nicely. This makes
10,000K/actinic combo lights a bad choice for freshwater as they will
tend to grow algae. However, straight 10,000K is a very white,
attractive light that grows plants just fine, especially in deeper
tanks. Really, plants can adapt to anything in the 5000K-10,000K
range, given enough wattage. Choose according to your taste.

Trichromatics are nice too - I used to use Tritons when they were easy
to get. A mix of hardware store warm white and cool white bulbs gives
very good plant growth if you use enough wattage. Want a real jungle?
Put your tank in the window. It's free and you get the right spectrum,
gentle day/night transision and perfect seasonal variation.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> FWIW, if the Mosquito Rasboras are anything like Harlequin
> Rasboras in terms of activity level, I think a 5g might be
> a little small for them
> (they seem to like action). By the same token, if the
> Ember Tetras are like Neon Tetras, again, in terms of
> activity level, then a few of these in a 5g is probably
> OK.

Thanks, I'll think about it.

--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> One of the biggest problems that I have with my 2 5 gall
> tanks is getting the balance between enough light for
> plants and not too much light because of the heat of the
> water

You're right. My small cool water fish tanks are covered
with glass panes, have ventilation slots and are mostly
lighted with (open) desk lamps. The 5g corydoras tank I
mentioned, too.

> When you come to pick your fish, don't just consider the
> physical size, you also need to look at territorial needs
> and how much swimming space they need

Yes, of course.

Thanks.
--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I wish I could even find Ember Tetras!

:-) Well, seem to be rare import fish. Don't give up..

> Looks like they prefer quiet water.

Thanks (also for the links).
--
cu
Marco

[Mr. Gardener]

On 11 Feb 2006 16:00:22 -0800, "Altum" > wrote:

>Actinic/blue grows algae and zooxanthellae very nicely. This makes
>10,000K/actinic combo lights a bad choice for freshwater as they will
>tend to grow algae. However, straight 10,000K is a very white,
>attractive light that grows plants just fine, especially in deeper
>tanks. Really, plants can adapt to anything in the 5000K-10,000K
>range, given enough wattage. Choose according to your taste.

Thanks for the heads up on Actinic/blue. I was getting to the point of
suspecting that the 10,000 might have deeper penetration, or whatever
the correct term is. I may try a combo of 6000 and 10,000 on a new
tank I'm setting up.
>
>Trichromatics are nice too - I used to use Tritons when they were easy
>to get. A mix of hardware store warm white and cool white bulbs gives
>very good plant growth if you use enough wattage. Want a real jungle?
>Put your tank in the window. It's free and you get the right spectrum,
>gentle day/night transision and perfect seasonal variation.

All of my tanks are near windows, but none receive direct sunlight.
They get the gentle sunrise/sunset transition without the extra algae.
During the late winter through early summer all of my windows are
filled with 4 foot fixtures over shelves of seedlings for the gardens.
In order to legally dispose of fluorescent tubes in my state, I have
to drive a 100 mile round trip and pay a dollar a foot. So I have a
huge collection of partially used tubes in my garage, all sorts of mix
and match possibilities - they'll probably be there until I die and I
can let my heirs deal with getting rid of them. Maybe I'll add them to
my will, leave to a daughter in law that I can't stand.

Off topic: I ordered some new filters, including the Tetratec 500 with
capsule heater last week. Delivery by UPS. I love the tracking on the
web feature at UPS and others. I see that my shipment arrived at the
UPS depot a few miles up the road from me late Friday night. But UPS
doesn't move on weekends. It's driving me crazy knowing it's there,
probably already on a truck pointed in the direction of my town - I
want to drive up there and see if I can sneak in an open window . . .


-- Mr Gardener

[Richard Sexton]

>Now that we've established that "ideal" lighting and water
>combinations for plants is over NetMax's head and a pointless pursuit
>for Richard - help me out a little. I go for lots of plants in my
>tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
>challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
>angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
>configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
>my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
>I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
>plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
>when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
>beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
>lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
>lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
>10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
>10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
>Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
>between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
>viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?

3500 is warm white and reddish 5000K is neutral - the color of
tropical daytlight at noon. 6500K is the color or northersn
sunset at noon, also called "northlight" in some books.

10,000K is the color of an Ontario sunset in november about 5 oclock,
quite a blue tinge.

If you can get plants to behave differently under any of those lights
you'd be the first person of record to do so. Get the color you like.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
NetMax > wrote:
>http://www.mnsi.net/~waj/Lighting.html

Doesn't work.

>http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/faq.html

I wrote this 22 years ago. Back then we didn't know half of what
we knew now and we all had algae problems. None the less, you
can safely ignore any issues of light color affecting plant
growth I inferred in this. "Fixed in nxt rev".

>http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/lights-wozniak.html
>http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Light_Part_1.html
>http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Light_Part_2.html
>http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/apr/features/2/default.asp
>http://www.ahsupply.com/
>http://www.science-projects.com/PhotosynPigments.htm
>http://www.life.umd.edu/classroom/bsci124/lec7.html
>http://www.lkraven.com/Aquarium/DIYLighting.htm
>http://www.giesemann.de/GB_Leuchten.html
>http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/reflectors.html
>
>2 Philips F40-DX Daylight CRI 85, 6500K $3cdn each (Home Depot)
>1 Sylvania F40/GRO/AQ/WS Gro-Lux $7.50cdn (Home Hardware)
>1 GE F40C50 Chroma 50 Sunshine CRI 90, 5000K $7cdn (Canadian Tire)

I use about the same. I like the color of it.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Altum > wrote:
>Actinic/blue grows algae and zooxanthellae very nicely. This makes
>10,000K/actinic combo lights a bad choice for freshwater as they will
>tend to grow algae. However, straight 10,000K is a very white,
>attractive light that grows plants just fine, especially in deeper
>tanks. Really, plants can adapt to anything in the 5000K-10,000K
>range, given enough wattage. Choose according to your taste.
>
>Trichromatics are nice too - I used to use Tritons when they were easy
>to get. A mix of hardware store warm white and cool white bulbs gives
>very good plant growth if you use enough wattage. Want a real jungle?
>Put your tank in the window. It's free and you get the right spectrum,
>gentle day/night transision and perfect seasonal variation.
>

5000K is white, 10000K is blue.

Tritons (actually made by GE for Interpet) work good because of the
intensity, not spectrum. That actually work a little better than
warm whites... and cost 20X as much.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Liz McGuire > wrote:
>FWIW, if the Mosquito Rasboras are anything like Harlequin Rasboras in
>terms of activity level, I think a 5g might be a little small for them

THay are but they're TINY little guys with the bioload of half a shrimp.

They'll be fine.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Now that we've established that "ideal" lighting and water
>>combinations for plants is over NetMax's head and a pointless pursuit
>>for Richard - help me out a little. I go for lots of plants in my
>>tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
>>challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
>>angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
>>configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
>>my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
>>I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
>>plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
>>when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
>>beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
>>lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
>>lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
>>10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
>>10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
>>Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
>>between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
>>viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?
>
> 3500 is warm white and reddish 5000K is neutral - the color of
> tropical daytlight at noon. 6500K is the color or northersn
> sunset at noon, also called "northlight" in some books.
>
> 10,000K is the color of an Ontario sunset in november about 5 oclock,
> quite a blue tinge.
>
> If you can get plants to behave differently under any of those lights
> you'd be the first person of record to do so. Get the color you like.

...or more precisely, get the color which looks good. The color you
'like' is rarely the color you 'see' unless you are liking it over the
same color substrate as you have at home. Did that makes sense?
Essentially most (all?) of the color we see is a reflection, so the color
of your gravel and background will influence what you see. Also other
light sources (sunlight washing out), and floating plants (green tinge to
everything) will have influence. As well, what are you lighting? Adult
Congo tetras have a rainbow of colors if you can get the right lighting
(brighter, whiter, spot), but that same light might look awful when
illuminating yellow & blue African cichlids on a coral substrate (violet,
red, spread).

I used to go through this exercise with some of my more discerning
customers. Moving from tank to tank, they would decide which hue they
wanted. I would then try a couple of bulbs in a tank with similarly
colored gravel. Then because our fish-room was very dark (to make the
tanks look better), I would usually send the customer home with more than
one type of bulb, and instructions to return the rest. They occasionally
commented on how their final choice was not the one they expected.

So - the science will only take us so far (preventing us from buying a
bad light and putting us in the lumens ballpark ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:14:52 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:11:57 +0000 (UTC),
>>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
<snip for brevity>

> I'm discovering that when NetMax says "it's over my head" and Richard
> says "it's pointless", you guys are just getting started rather than
> ending the discussion.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

It's a good thing keyboards are not expensive (it's the sugar in the
coffee that ruins them ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> 3500 is warm white and reddish 5000K is neutral - the color of
> tropical daytlight at noon. 6500K is the color or northersn
> sunset at noon, also called "northlight" in some books.
>
> 10,000K is the color of an Ontario sunset in november about 5 oclock,
> quite a blue tinge.
>
> If you can get plants to behave differently under any of those lights
> you'd be the first person of record to do so. Get the color you like.
>
How odd. I have a 10,000K bulb that isn't blue at all. LFS put the
wrong bulb in a CF fixture I bought and I only figured out a couple
months later that they messed up. I went and got a 5500K bulb, put it
in, and decided it didn't make enough of a difference to be worth
switching. Perhaps mine has a better CRI than some 10,000K bulbs. It
grows plants fine, of course.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Altum > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> 3500 is warm white and reddish 5000K is neutral - the color of
>> tropical daytlight at noon. 6500K is the color or northersn
>> sunset at noon, also called "northlight" in some books.
>>
>> 10,000K is the color of an Ontario sunset in november about 5 oclock,
>> quite a blue tinge.
>>
>> If you can get plants to behave differently under any of those lights
>> you'd be the first person of record to do so. Get the color you like.
>>
>How odd. I have a 10,000K bulb that isn't blue at all. LFS put the
>wrong bulb in a CF fixture I bought and I only figured out a couple
>months later that they messed up. I went and got a 5500K bulb, put it
>in, and decided it didn't make enough of a difference to be worth
>switching. Perhaps mine has a better CRI than some 10,000K bulbs. It
>grows plants fine, of course.

I know, it makes no sense, ther's 10K and 18K tubes and they should be
blue as al getout. But they aint. Weird.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Mr. Gardener]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:04:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article . com>,
>Altum > wrote:
>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>
>>> 3500 is warm white and reddish 5000K is neutral - the color of
>>> tropical daytlight at noon. 6500K is the color or northersn
>>> sunset at noon, also called "northlight" in some books.
>>>
>>> 10,000K is the color of an Ontario sunset in november about 5 oclock,
>>> quite a blue tinge.
>>>
>>> If you can get plants to behave differently under any of those lights
>>> you'd be the first person of record to do so. Get the color you like.
>>>
>>How odd. I have a 10,000K bulb that isn't blue at all. LFS put the
>>wrong bulb in a CF fixture I bought and I only figured out a couple
>>months later that they messed up. I went and got a 5500K bulb, put it
>>in, and decided it didn't make enough of a difference to be worth
>>switching. Perhaps mine has a better CRI than some 10,000K bulbs. It
>>grows plants fine, of course.
>
>I know, it makes no sense, ther's 10K and 18K tubes and they should be
>blue as al getout. But they aint. Weird.

I think our eyes play tricks on us a lot more than we realize. Of
course, if we did realize, they wouldn't be tricks.

-- Mr Gardener

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Mr. Gardener wrote:

> I go for lots of plants in my
> tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
> challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
> angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
> configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
> my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
> I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
> plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
> when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
> beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
> lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
> lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
> 10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
> 10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
> Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
> between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
> viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?

If you are talking about incandescent bulbs things are relatively easy:
The colour is determined by the temperature of the filament, the hotter
the more blue light is produced and the "colder" the psychological
effect on humans (weird, isn't it?).

However, most of us are using fluorescent lights. Those contain mercury
at low pressure and produce primarily UV-light. Since this would be
useless for illumination and dangerous to health the tubes have a inner
white coatiung which absorbs UV- and sends out visible light, a process
called fluorescence. The white stuff is a mixture of different
fluorescent compounds, each producing a specific wavelength. So rather
than a continuous spectrum like incandescent lights fluorescent bulbs
produce a line spectrum. Thus the term "light temperature" is
missleading, because strictly defined only for continuous spectra. Thus
one should actually say that to most humans under a given set of
conditions the light looks somewhat similar to light of a given
temperature. That is the reason why you buy clothing under natural, not
fluorescent light, otherwise you might be surprised how the things would
look on the street.

In other words: Two fluorescent bulbs, made by different manufacturers
but specified for the same colour temperature, may have considerably
different spectra. So it is not surprising that plants may grow better
with one than with the other.

A particular problem with fluorescent lights is the production of
long-wavelength red light (600-700 nm). Fluorophores to produce red
light are expensive and short lived in use. This is a big shame since
plants use blue and red lights best, and only little green light. That's
the reason why many plants look green: They absorb blue and red for
photosynthesis and reflect the green. In addition, plants use red light
as a morphogen to control growth, flowering, hibernation and senescence.
Thus for a planted tank one should use bulbs which produce enough red
light, most manufacturers publish the spectra on their web sites, some
even on the packing. As mentioned above that has little to do with the
colour temperature.

Hope that sheds a little light on the matter ;-)

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:50:57 +0100, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
> wrote:

>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>
>> I go for lots of plants in my
>> tanks. Roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of the substrate planted. Nothing too
>> challenging, I like swords, crypts, and tall waving vals for my
>> angels. I'm browsing the catalog claims for various light
>> configurations and color temperatures and have assumed all along that
>> my best option was for bulbs somewhere between 6000 and 6700 degrees.
>> I've always casually referred to bulbs in this range as daylight or
>> plant bulbs. I generally go for the daylight - when it matters, tho'
>> when it's just green seedlings I'm raising for the flower or veggie
>> beds, $1.99 cool whites are just fine. (I grow a lot of plants under
>> lights for my outdoor terra firma gardens). I'm noticing that some
>> lights in the aqua catalogs are calling themselves plant lights at
>> 10,000 degrees. And combos seem to be getting more prevalent,
>> 10,000/blue, and similar matches. I've yet to see a power compact Vita
>> Light, full spectrum, so that option is out. What's the difference
>> between 6700 and 10,000, in terms of plant growth and appeal to the
>> viewing eyeballs? And what about the white/blue combos?
>
>If you are talking about incandescent bulbs things are relatively easy:
>The colour is determined by the temperature of the filament, the hotter
>the more blue light is produced and the "colder" the psychological
>effect on humans (weird, isn't it?).
>
>However, most of us are using fluorescent lights. Those contain mercury
>at low pressure and produce primarily UV-light. Since this would be
>useless for illumination and dangerous to health the tubes have a inner
>white coatiung which absorbs UV- and sends out visible light, a process
>called fluorescence. The white stuff is a mixture of different
>fluorescent compounds, each producing a specific wavelength. So rather
>than a continuous spectrum like incandescent lights fluorescent bulbs
>produce a line spectrum. Thus the term "light temperature" is
>missleading, because strictly defined only for continuous spectra. Thus
>one should actually say that to most humans under a given set of
>conditions the light looks somewhat similar to light of a given
>temperature. That is the reason why you buy clothing under natural, not
>fluorescent light, otherwise you might be surprised how the things would
>look on the street.
>
>In other words: Two fluorescent bulbs, made by different manufacturers
>but specified for the same colour temperature, may have considerably
>different spectra. So it is not surprising that plants may grow better
>with one than with the other.
>
>A particular problem with fluorescent lights is the production of
>long-wavelength red light (600-700 nm). Fluorophores to produce red
>light are expensive and short lived in use. This is a big shame since
>plants use blue and red lights best, and only little green light. That's
>the reason why many plants look green: They absorb blue and red for
>photosynthesis and reflect the green. In addition, plants use red light
>as a morphogen to control growth, flowering, hibernation and senescence.
>Thus for a planted tank one should use bulbs which produce enough red
>light, most manufacturers publish the spectra on their web sites, some
>even on the packing. As mentioned above that has little to do with the
>colour temperature.
>
>Hope that sheds a little light on the matter ;-)

Thanks for the information. I am, by the way, talking only of
fluorescent when referring to aquaria - I haven't used an incandescent
in 30 years, at least. I've been most interested recently in the
continued progress being made with screw-in compact fluorescents for
both household and aquarium lighting. Whether specs are published in
spectra or degrees, I agree that two bulbs from different
manufacturers with identical "specs", can look very different to the
human eye. And the elusive perfect bulb is the one that looks best to
my eyes while providing the optimum for plant growth. I'm thinking of
my first experience with a "gro-lux" way back when, a bulb that was
touted to be great for plant growth, but who wants to look at pinkish
purplish water?

That opinion got shot out from under me last week when the UPS truck
brought two bulbs for my new cory tank. The bulbs are

"Coralife Colormax
6,700°K full spectrum lamps with color-enhancing phosphors. Ideal for
freshwater aquariums."

Looked like just what I wanted until I installed them and discovered
they were the same pink-purple (to my eye) as the old Gro Lux.
I was about to remove them to exchange them when my wife said "oh,
what a neat way to get the light to the plants without blinding the
cories, who like it dim." She wins. The purple cory tank stays.

Regarding my inexpensive strip lights using screw in compact
fluorescents, though certainly imperfect, they beat the heck out of
the store-bought 15 watt tube strips that the aqua manufacturers are
getting 50 bucks for. And I feel better investing just a few dollars
for lighting when it's for a 10 or 15 gallon tank with 20 dollars
worth of plants and fish. My larger display tanks have more
traditional long tubes or power compacts. (I really don't understand
why power compact hoods and strips are so incredibly expensive, but
sometimes you gotta buy what you gotta buy.)

-- Mr Gardener