KH, pH, Ca++

[Mike Silver]

I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year. Normally the
Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of 8.0 -
8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!

Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now to about
7.8 (before lights come on).

Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2 KH (much
higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit higher than
the buffer directions said it should be.

Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca reactor
settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few months
ago.)

Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now is 8.0!
Before lights came on!

so question is:

pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!

What do I do?

turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up or down?

Buffer addition?

My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2 bubble rate
and flow rate manuly.

This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the buffering
capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph should be
around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and the KH is
high??


Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

(PS all other chemistries are great - Ammonia < 0.025 mg/L Nitrite <
0.01 Nitrate < 0.2 mg/L phosphate < 0.0 but still having moderate hair
(brown and green) algae problem. - do have to upgrade my cleanup crew
though!)

Mike

[Ross Bagley]

(Mike Silver) writes:

> I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year. Normally the
> Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of 8.0 -
> 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
>
> Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now to about
> 7.8 (before lights come on).
>
> Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2 KH (much
> higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit higher than
> the buffer directions said it should be.
>
> Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca reactor
> settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few months
> ago.)
>
> Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now is 8.0!
> Before lights came on!
>
> so question is:
>
> pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!

Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.

> What do I do?

Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably more
stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the imbalance
would be just about perfect.

I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and others
have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.

> turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up or down?

Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to move
the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending up
in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be to
have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank location.
This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH kalk.

If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.

> Buffer addition?
>
> My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2 bubble rate
> and flow rate manuly.
>
> This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the buffering
> capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph should be
> around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and the KH is
> high??

It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity,
add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
slowly until your numbers balance out.

I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of either
Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution. You're
not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to be
closer to NSW than not.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Patrick]

Do you have a protein skimmer??? If so, see if you can redirect the
output from your reactor to the input of the skimmer (AquaC's EV
series has a fitting for this). The turbulence and bubbles in the
skimmer will help greatly with outgassing the excess CO2 before it can
get to your tank


(Ross Bagley) wrote in message >
> Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to move
> the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
> sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending up
> in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be to
> have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank location.
> This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH kalk.

[stoutman]

Be careful with this advice.

Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC salt.


"Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
...
> (Mike Silver) writes:
>
> > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year. Normally the
> > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of 8.0 -
> > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
> >
> > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now to
about
> > 7.8 (before lights come on).
> >
> > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2 KH
(much
> > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit higher
than
> > the buffer directions said it should be.
> >
> > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca
reactor
> > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few
months
> > ago.)
> >
> > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now is 8.0!
> > Before lights came on!
> >
> > so question is:
> >
> > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
>
> Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
>
> > What do I do?
>
> Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
> conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably more
> stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the imbalance
> would be just about perfect.
>
> I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and others
> have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
> Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
>
> > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up or
down?
>
> Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to move
> the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
> sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending up
> in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be to
> have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank location.
> This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH kalk.
>
> If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
> calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
> lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
> trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
>
> > Buffer addition?
> >
> > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2 bubble rate
> > and flow rate manuly.
> >
> > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the buffering
> > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph should be
> > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and the KH
is
> > high??
>
> It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
> If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity,
> add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
> slowly until your numbers balance out.
>
> I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
> When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of either
> Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution. You're
> not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to be
> closer to NSW than not.
>
> Regards,
> Ross
>
> -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
> Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Boomer]

You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out of your ass.


"Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC salt."

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm

Humm, gee what does the pH say there

Here is some more for you

"The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***, which can cause accelerated
corrosion of your steel components. "

"calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous solution,"

Just so you don't miss it

"HS-No. 282720000
CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"

So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use or the way we use it

Here is some more for you


http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specifications.htm



Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt snow ?

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/fe
b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH problems unless you overdose
it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low Alk and a degrading pH
..There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in this hobby on the use an
application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst problem with CaCl, in over
usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people would be using this stuff
by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of the pH problem. Some
people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.

Here is some help for you

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though your comments on Alk and
Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the issue at all.

By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March 15, the article on CaCl,
its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them used in this hobby. Have
a flipin' look

PS

I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem Forum link below and ask
Randy
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
: Be careful with this advice.
:
: Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC salt.
:
:
: "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
: ...
: > (Mike Silver) writes:
: >
: > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year. Normally the
: > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of 8.0 -
: > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
: > >
: > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now to
: about
: > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
: > >
: > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2 KH
: (much
: > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit higher
: than
: > > the buffer directions said it should be.
: > >
: > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca
: reactor
: > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few
: months
: > > ago.)
: > >
: > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now is 8.0!
: > > Before lights came on!
: > >
: > > so question is:
: > >
: > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
: >
: > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
: >
: > > What do I do?
: >
: > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
: > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably more
: > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the imbalance
: > would be just about perfect.
: >
: > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and others
: > have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
: > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
: >
: > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up or
: down?
: >
: > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to move
: > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
: > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending up
: > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be to
: > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank location.
: > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH kalk.
: >
: > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
: > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
: > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
: > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
: >
: > > Buffer addition?
: > >
: > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2 bubble rate
: > > and flow rate manuly.
: > >
: > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the buffering
: > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph should be
: > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and the KH
: is
: > > high??
: >
: > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
: > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity,
: > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
: > slowly until your numbers balance out.
: >
: > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
: > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of either
: > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution. You're
: > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to be
: > closer to NSW than not.
: >
: > Regards,
: > Ross
: >
: > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
: > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
: > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
:
:

[stoutman]

Oh boy the retard wants to argue with me again. Calcium chloride is the
salt of a weak base and a strong acid. This makes it an acidic salt.

http://www.syndel.com/msds/calcium_chloride_msds.html

exert:

BOILING POINT: >1600°C

FREEZING POINT: 772°C

pH: Acidic (aqueous solution)









"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out of your
ass.
>
>
> "Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
salt."
>
> http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
>
> Humm, gee what does the pH say there
>
> Here is some more for you
>
> "The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***, which can
cause accelerated
> corrosion of your steel components. "
>
> "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
solution,"
>
> Just so you don't miss it
>
> "HS-No. 282720000
> CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
> Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
> max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"
>
> So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use or the
way we use it
>
> Here is some more for you
>
>
>
http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specificatio
ns.htm
>
>
>
> Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt
snow ?
>
>
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish
2/aqfm/1999/fe
> b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>
> We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH problems unless
you overdose
> it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low Alk and a
degrading pH
> .There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in this
hobby on the use an
> application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst problem with
CaCl, in over
> usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people would be
using this stuff
> by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of the pH
problem. Some
> people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.
>
> Here is some help for you
>
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
>
> By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though your
comments on Alk and
> Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the issue at
all.
>
> By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March 15, the
article on CaCl,
> its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them used in
this hobby. Have
> a flipin' look
>
> PS
>
> I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem Forum link
below and ask
> Randy
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
> : Be careful with this advice.
> :
> : Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
salt.
> :
> :
> : "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > (Mike Silver) writes:
> : >
> : > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year. Normally
the
> : > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of
8.0 -
> : > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
> : > >
> : > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now to
> : about
> : > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
> : > >
> : > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2 KH
> : (much
> : > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit
higher
> : than
> : > > the buffer directions said it should be.
> : > >
> : > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca
> : reactor
> : > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few
> : months
> : > > ago.)
> : > >
> : > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now is
8.0!
> : > > Before lights came on!
> : > >
> : > > so question is:
> : > >
> : > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
> : >
> : > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
> : >
> : > > What do I do?
> : >
> : > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
> : > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably more
> : > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the imbalance
> : > would be just about perfect.
> : >
> : > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and others
> : > have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
> : > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
> : >
> : > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up or
> : down?
> : >
> : > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to move
> : > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
> : > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending up
> : > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be to
> : > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank location.
> : > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH kalk.
> : >
> : > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
> : > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
> : > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
> : > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
> : >
> : > > Buffer addition?
> : > >
> : > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2 bubble
rate
> : > > and flow rate manuly.
> : > >
> : > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the
buffering
> : > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph should
be
> : > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and the
KH
> : is
> : > > high??
> : >
> : > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
> : > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity,
> : > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
> : > slowly until your numbers balance out.
> : >
> : > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
> : > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of either
> : > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution. You're
> : > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to be
> : > closer to NSW than not.
> : >
> : > Regards,
> : > Ross
> : >
> : > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> : > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
> : > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
> :
> :
>
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt snow ?

snow on the streets???

whats that?

HEHEHE

though right now its about to rain with thunder and lightening its the worst weather we
ever get in SoCal :D we get a little snow up in the mountains hehehe we call them
mountains there only 4k feet above sealevel.


--
Richard Reynolds

[stoutman]

Don't believe me??

Take some CaCl2 and dissolve in water. Measure the pH. It will be < 7
(acidic).









"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:Np91c.105045$4o.121807@attbi_s52...
> Oh boy the retard wants to argue with me again. Calcium chloride is the
> salt of a weak base and a strong acid. This makes it an acidic salt.
>
> http://www.syndel.com/msds/calcium_chloride_msds.html
>
> exert:
>
> BOILING POINT: >1600°C
>
> FREEZING POINT: 772°C
>
> pH: Acidic (aqueous solution)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out of
your
> ass.
> >
> >
> > "Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
> salt."
> >
> > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
> >
> > Humm, gee what does the pH say there
> >
> > Here is some more for you
> >
> > "The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***, which can
> cause accelerated
> > corrosion of your steel components. "
> >
> > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
> solution,"
> >
> > Just so you don't miss it
> >
> > "HS-No. 282720000
> > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
> > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
> > max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"
> >
> > So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use or
the
> way we use it
> >
> > Here is some more for you
> >
> >
> >
>
http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specificatio
> ns.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt
> snow ?
> >
> >
>
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish
> 2/aqfm/1999/fe
> > b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> >
> > We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH problems
unless
> you overdose
> > it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low Alk and
a
> degrading pH
> > .There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in this
> hobby on the use an
> > application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst problem
with
> CaCl, in over
> > usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people would be
> using this stuff
> > by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of the pH
> problem. Some
> > people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.
> >
> > Here is some help for you
> >
> > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
> >
> > By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though your
> comments on Alk and
> > Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the issue
at
> all.
> >
> > By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March 15,
the
> article on CaCl,
> > its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them used in
> this hobby. Have
> > a flipin' look
> >
> > PS
> >
> > I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem Forum
link
> below and ask
> > Randy
> > --
> > Boomer
> >
> > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> >
> > Want to See More ?
> > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> > www.coralrealm.com
> >
> > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
> > : Be careful with this advice.
> > :
> > : Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
> salt.
> > :
> > :
> > : "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
> > : ...
> > : > (Mike Silver) writes:
> > : >
> > : > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year.
Normally
> the
> > : > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of
> 8.0 -
> > : > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
> > : > >
> > : > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now
to
> > : about
> > : > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
> > : > >
> > : > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2
KH
> > : (much
> > : > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit
> higher
> > : than
> > : > > the buffer directions said it should be.
> > : > >
> > : > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca
> > : reactor
> > : > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few
> > : months
> > : > > ago.)
> > : > >
> > : > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now
is
> 8.0!
> > : > > Before lights came on!
> > : > >
> > : > > so question is:
> > : > >
> > : > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
> > : >
> > : > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
> > : >
> > : > > What do I do?
> > : >
> > : > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
> > : > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably
more
> > : > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the
imbalance
> > : > would be just about perfect.
> > : >
> > : > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and
others
> > : > have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
> > : > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
> > : >
> > : > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up
or
> > : down?
> > : >
> > : > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to
move
> > : > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
> > : > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending
up
> > : > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be
to
> > : > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank
location.
> > : > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH
kalk.
> > : >
> > : > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
> > : > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
> > : > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
> > : > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
> > : >
> > : > > Buffer addition?
> > : > >
> > : > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2
bubble
> rate
> > : > > and flow rate manuly.
> > : > >
> > : > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the
> buffering
> > : > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph
should
> be
> > : > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and
the
> KH
> > : is
> > : > > high??
> > : >
> > : > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
> > : > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity,
> > : > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
> > : > slowly until your numbers balance out.
> > : >
> > : > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
> > : > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of either
> > : > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution. You're
> > : > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to be
> > : > closer to NSW than not.
> > : >
> > : > Regards,
> > : > Ross
> > : >
> > : > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> > : > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
> > : > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
> > :
> > :
> >
> >
>
>

[Rod]

>> Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt
>snow ?
>
>snow on the streets???
>
>whats that?
>
>HEHEHE

Its the stuff that we get here in the chicagoland area, and we do use calcium
Chloride to melt the snow/ice. It does a good job at removing the snow/ice and
it also does a very good job of eating away at the concrete.. Im not sure that
if Calcium chloride were alkaline that it would eat away at tthe Concrete like
acid would..
Anoter note.. I used to be a mason contractor.. in th ewinter we used Calcium
chloride to keep the mortar from freezing, but not recommended because it
weekens the mortar by disolving th elime in th emortar mix.. Acid disolves
lime. I'm not a chemist nor do I play one on TV. I also did not follow ANY of
those links, but if I had to make an uneduacated guess, I would guess that
Calcium chloride was acidic. When we add calcium chloride to our tanks, areent
we supposed to add a buffer too, to keep thinks ballanced? I know that the
buffer is alkaline and if we need the buffer to ballance.. the chloride must be
acidic? no?
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[stoutman]

You don't need to "guess" or take my word for it.

Test for yourself. Dissolve a little CalCl2 in water and measure the pH.
It will be acidic (pH < 7).

The infamous "expert of water chemistry" Boomer, is even more stupid than I
originally thought.

You guys have been taking chemistry advice from him?? Better think twice
about what he says.

This thread about CaCl2 and being acidic has been around in aquarium related
newsgroups before. Do a google search in GROUPS and you will see this
discussion again.




"Rod" > wrote in message
...
> >> Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt
> >snow ?
> >
> >snow on the streets???
> >
> >whats that?
> >
> >HEHEHE
>
> Its the stuff that we get here in the chicagoland area, and we do use
calcium
> Chloride to melt the snow/ice. It does a good job at removing the snow/ice
and
> it also does a very good job of eating away at the concrete.. Im not sure
that
> if Calcium chloride were alkaline that it would eat away at tthe Concrete
like
> acid would..
> Anoter note.. I used to be a mason contractor.. in th ewinter we used
Calcium
> chloride to keep the mortar from freezing, but not recommended because it
> weekens the mortar by disolving th elime in th emortar mix.. Acid disolves
> lime. I'm not a chemist nor do I play one on TV. I also did not follow
ANY of
> those links, but if I had to make an uneduacated guess, I would guess that
> Calcium chloride was acidic. When we add calcium chloride to our tanks,
areent
> we supposed to add a buffer too, to keep thinks ballanced? I know that the
> buffer is alkaline and if we need the buffer to ballance.. the chloride
must be
> acidic? no?
> Rod Buehler
> www.asplashoflife.com

[Rod]

>You guys have been taking chemistry advice from him??

Nope, not me ;-)

Better think twice
>about what he says.
>
I always do ;)

Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[Ross Bagley]

"stoutman" <.@.> writes:

> Be careful with this advice.
>
> Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC salt.

You are correct. However, calcium chloride is a fairly weak acid and
he won't have to add very much to have the effect he desires.

All of the chemicals and additives that we slosh into our tank water
have some effect on pH and other water factors. The question is whether
the total sum of the effects is a net positive or net negative. Based
on the statements of Craig Bingman and others, the most innocuous
solution to low calcium with high alkalinity is a slow one-shot
addition of Calcium Chloride until balanced Ca levels are restored.

He has more than enough buffering capacity to handle the additional
Calcium, he just needs to not rush into anything and he can recover
his calcium levels without muss or fuss. Which is why I told him to
make any changes gradually, and then repeated that advice when I said
to slowly add Calcium Chloride until his Ca was where he wanted it.

In my opinion, based on the information he gave, the lowered pH was a
transient product of the excess CO2 in the reactor effluent, not the
chronic ion imbalance. When his pH recovered to 8.0 in the morning
after turning off the calcium reactor (a pH of 8.0 even with all of
the overnight production of CO2 were in the water), the indications
given showed that his pH is just fine. Better than many, actually.

Actually, I wish more people had your skeptical attitude towards any
suggestion to add something to the tank. People should really think
carefully about what they're putting in their tank, but few aquarists
actually do. Garbage products like Coral Vital and most other "coral
supplements" won't actually tell you what's in them, yet people quite
happily throw them in the water with their pets on the say-so of a
company trying very hard to extract money from their wallet.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[stoutman]

Ross the original post said:

>so question is:

>pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!


He is saying he has a low pH and low Calcium. Why would you want to correct
the calcium level by doing something that can have a negative impact on pH?
Why not suggest CaOH? This will increase pH and Calcium in one shot. pH is
always going to gradually fall anyway due to CO2. Why would suggest a
supplement that can further compromise the situation?

At the end of your post to him, you do suggest dripping kalk. Wouldn't
CaOH addition be enough? After all, it will correct both of his imbalances
(low pH, low Ca+2).

If you do want to try the CaCl2 addition to raise your Ca++, add it slowly
(dilute solution) and monitor your pH at the same time. :)




"Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
...
> "stoutman" <.@.> writes:
>
> > Be careful with this advice.
> >
> > Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
salt.
>
> You are correct. However, calcium chloride is a fairly weak acid and
> he won't have to add very much to have the effect he desires.
>
> All of the chemicals and additives that we slosh into our tank water
> have some effect on pH and other water factors. The question is whether
> the total sum of the effects is a net positive or net negative. Based
> on the statements of Craig Bingman and others, the most innocuous
> solution to low calcium with high alkalinity is a slow one-shot
> addition of Calcium Chloride until balanced Ca levels are restored.
>
> He has more than enough buffering capacity to handle the additional
> Calcium, he just needs to not rush into anything and he can recover
> his calcium levels without muss or fuss. Which is why I told him to
> make any changes gradually, and then repeated that advice when I said
> to slowly add Calcium Chloride until his Ca was where he wanted it.
>
> In my opinion, based on the information he gave, the lowered pH was a
> transient product of the excess CO2 in the reactor effluent, not the
> chronic ion imbalance. When his pH recovered to 8.0 in the morning
> after turning off the calcium reactor (a pH of 8.0 even with all of
> the overnight production of CO2 were in the water), the indications
> given showed that his pH is just fine. Better than many, actually.
>
> Actually, I wish more people had your skeptical attitude towards any
> suggestion to add something to the tank. People should really think
> carefully about what they're putting in their tank, but few aquarists
> actually do. Garbage products like Coral Vital and most other "coral
> supplements" won't actually tell you what's in them, yet people quite
> happily throw them in the water with their pets on the say-so of a
> company trying very hard to extract money from their wallet.
>
> Regards,
> Ross
>
> -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
> Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Ross Bagley]

"stoutman" <.@.> writes:

> Ross the original post said:
>
> >so question is:
>
> >pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!

> He is saying he has a low pH and low Calcium.

If you read a little further, he had normal pH when he shut off
the reactor. The low pH is simply too much CO2 in solution and
is probably not an ion imbalance.

> Why would you want to correct the calcium level by doing something
> that can have a negative impact on pH?

Because what I suggested won't have a significant impact on his pH.

> Why not suggest CaOH? This will increase pH and Calcium in one
> shot. pH is always going to gradually fall anyway due to CO2. Why
> would suggest a supplement that can further compromise the
> situation?

CaOH is a fairly strong alkali. CaCl2 is a rather weak acid.

If he was to quickly add enough CaOH to increase 200ppm of calcium,
he wouldn't just fix his low pH, he'd be in the low 9's very shortly.

The choice between CaOH and CaCl2 is one of speed and risk. To allow
him to relatively quickly add 200ppm of Ca++ to his tank, I
recommended CaCl2. CaCl2 is highly soluble in water and is much
easier to stop from precipitating out of solution in a small storage
tank during a 24 or 48 hour dose. If he's going to take a day or two
and deliver a full dose of something, CaCl2 is much easier to handle
and deliver an exact amount than CaOH.

In my experience, anyway.

> At the end of your post to him, you do suggest dripping kalk.
> Wouldn't CaOH addition be enough? After all, it will correct both
> of his imbalances (low pH, low Ca+2).

Kalkwasser (CaOH) tends to slowly fix carbon dioxide from the
atmosphere converting it to carbonate and bicarbonate. Which is why
people who have moderate calcium loads don't need to add alk to their
systems to keep a balance of Ca and alk in their tanks. For the same
reason, the pH effects of moderate kalk dosing are short-lived.

To directly answer your question: in the longer term, yes. Dosing
kalk along with a Calcium reactor is in my opinion, the best way to
dose calcium into a tank that consumes a lot of it. In the shorter
term, I believe he will be better served by the simpler calcium
additive: CaCl2.

> If you do want to try the CaCl2 addition to raise your Ca++, add it
> slowly (dilute solution) and monitor your pH at the same time. :)

I fully agree with this.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[stoutman]

Makes sense. :)

thanks.




"Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
...
> "stoutman" <.@.> writes:
>
> > Ross the original post said:
> >
> > >so question is:
> >
> > >pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
>
> > He is saying he has a low pH and low Calcium.
>
> If you read a little further, he had normal pH when he shut off
> the reactor. The low pH is simply too much CO2 in solution and
> is probably not an ion imbalance.
>
> > Why would you want to correct the calcium level by doing something
> > that can have a negative impact on pH?
>
> Because what I suggested won't have a significant impact on his pH.
>
> > Why not suggest CaOH? This will increase pH and Calcium in one
> > shot. pH is always going to gradually fall anyway due to CO2. Why
> > would suggest a supplement that can further compromise the
> > situation?
>
> CaOH is a fairly strong alkali. CaCl2 is a rather weak acid.
>
> If he was to quickly add enough CaOH to increase 200ppm of calcium,
> he wouldn't just fix his low pH, he'd be in the low 9's very shortly.
>
> The choice between CaOH and CaCl2 is one of speed and risk. To allow
> him to relatively quickly add 200ppm of Ca++ to his tank, I
> recommended CaCl2. CaCl2 is highly soluble in water and is much
> easier to stop from precipitating out of solution in a small storage
> tank during a 24 or 48 hour dose. If he's going to take a day or two
> and deliver a full dose of something, CaCl2 is much easier to handle
> and deliver an exact amount than CaOH.
>
> In my experience, anyway.
>
> > At the end of your post to him, you do suggest dripping kalk.
> > Wouldn't CaOH addition be enough? After all, it will correct both
> > of his imbalances (low pH, low Ca+2).
>
> Kalkwasser (CaOH) tends to slowly fix carbon dioxide from the
> atmosphere converting it to carbonate and bicarbonate. Which is why
> people who have moderate calcium loads don't need to add alk to their
> systems to keep a balance of Ca and alk in their tanks. For the same
> reason, the pH effects of moderate kalk dosing are short-lived.
>
> To directly answer your question: in the longer term, yes. Dosing
> kalk along with a Calcium reactor is in my opinion, the best way to
> dose calcium into a tank that consumes a lot of it. In the shorter
> term, I believe he will be better served by the simpler calcium
> additive: CaCl2.
>
> > If you do want to try the CaCl2 addition to raise your Ca++, add it
> > slowly (dilute solution) and monitor your pH at the same time. :)
>
> I fully agree with this.
>
> Regards,
> Ross
>
> -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
> Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Boomer]

You are so easy to troll it is silly. It think we know who the retard is. I like arguing
with clueless people, such as yourself that claims to be a chemist. I buried your silly
ass in the last debate and have Millero, Holmes and many ref to back me up. Still afraid
to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson, you say your not but I don't see you
there.You sound like a empty tin can just rattling around making allot of noise. So much
for being a STOUTMAN, one with not balls at all LOL

exert
Boiling Point: > 1600C (> 2912F)

Melting Point: 772C (1422F)

pH: 8 - 9 Aqueous solution

"calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous solution,"

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these values


Did you miss this also

HS-No. 282720000
CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
max. 0.001 %;

pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5

"So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "

Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a chemist you would think
you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;

2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl

CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2



You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so he had to straighten
you out, yet you are a chemist.

There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG. About nil does the pH
issue even come up
Matter of fact, articles on discussions of the addition of NaCl2, Bingman, Holmes etc.
there has not even a mention of a pH problem, I challenge you to find one.

By the way I though Randy would get another kick out of one of your replies, here was his
answer, brief and short. Also, he wrote an article discussing the Buffering
Capacity/Buffering Intensity of seawater.I was saving it for you but maybe you need to do
a search and find it yourself LOL Maybe you should come over and straighten him out OK
??
**************************





Boomer wrote on 03/02/2004 06:57 PM:

Randy

He is at it again. On a reef newsgroup a guy gave this advice to a reefer

"It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance. If you need Calcium,
add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity, add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium,
so add Calcium Chloride slowly until your numbers balance out."

This was Stoutman's reply;

"Be careful with this advice.

Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an
ACIDIC salt."





Randy Holmes-Farley wrote on 03/04/2004 12:04 PM:

That's quite funny!

***************************************


--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:Np91c.105045$4o.121807@attbi_s52...
: Oh boy the retard wants to argue with me again. Calcium chloride is the
: salt of a weak base and a strong acid. This makes it an acidic salt.
:
: http://www.syndel.com/msds/calcium_chloride_msds.html
:
: exert:
:
: BOILING POINT: >1600°C
:
: FREEZING POINT: 772°C
:
: pH: Acidic (aqueous solution)
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out of your
: ass.
: >
: >
: > "Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
: salt."
: >
: > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
: >
: > Humm, gee what does the pH say there
: >
: > Here is some more for you
: >
: > "The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***, which can
: cause accelerated
: > corrosion of your steel components. "
: >
: > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
: solution,"
: >
: > Just so you don't miss it
: >
: > "HS-No. 282720000
: > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
: > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
: > max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"
: >
: > So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use or the
: way we use it
: >
: > Here is some more for you
: >
: >
: >
: http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specificatio
: ns.htm
: >
: >
: >
: > Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to melt
: snow ?
: >
: >
: http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish
: 2/aqfm/1999/fe
: > b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
: >
: > We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH problems unless
: you overdose
: > it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low Alk and a
: degrading pH
: > .There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in this
: hobby on the use an
: > application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst problem with
: CaCl, in over
: > usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people would be
: using this stuff
: > by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of the pH
: problem. Some
: > people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.
: >
: > Here is some help for you
: >
: > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
: >
: > By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though your
: comments on Alk and
: > Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the issue at
: all.
: >
: > By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March 15, the
: article on CaCl,
: > its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them used in
: this hobby. Have
: > a flipin' look
: >
: > PS
: >
: > I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem Forum link
: below and ask
: > Randy
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
: news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
: > : Be careful with this advice.
: > :
: > : Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
: salt.
: > :
: > :
: > : "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
: > : ...
: > : > (Mike Silver) writes:
: > : >
: > : > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year. Normally
: the
: > : > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of
: 8.0 -
: > : > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
: > : > >
: > : > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now to
: > : about
: > : > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
: > : > >
: > : > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or > 11.2 KH
: > : (much
: > : > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit
: higher
: > : than
: > : > > the buffer directions said it should be.
: > : > >
: > : > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change Ca
: > : reactor
: > : > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a few
: > : months
: > : > > ago.)
: > : > >
: > : > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now is
: 8.0!
: > : > > Before lights came on!
: > : > >
: > : > > so question is:
: > : > >
: > : > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
: > : >
: > : > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
: > : >
: > : > > What do I do?
: > : >
: > : > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
: > : > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably more
: > : > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the imbalance
: > : > would be just about perfect.
: > : >
: > : > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and others
: > : > have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
: > : > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
: > : >
: > : > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up or
: > : down?
: > : >
: > : > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to move
: > : > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as it
: > : > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is ending up
: > : > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would be to
: > : > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank location.
: > : > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH kalk.
: > : >
: > : > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
: > : > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
: > : > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
: > : > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
: > : >
: > : > > Buffer addition?
: > : > >
: > : > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2 bubble
: rate
: > : > > and flow rate manuly.
: > : > >
: > : > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the
: buffering
: > : > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph should
: be
: > : > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and the
: KH
: > : is
: > : > > high??
: > : >
: > : > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
: > : > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity,
: > : > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
: > : > slowly until your numbers balance out.
: > : >
: > : > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
: > : > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of either
: > : > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution. You're
: > : > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to be
: > : > closer to NSW than not.
: > : >
: > : > Regards,
: > : > Ross
: > : >
: > : > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
: > : > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
: > : > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

[Boomer]

Maybe you should have second thoughts about this and that clown


"I'm not a chemist nor do I play one on TV.

Well, that's good

"I also did not follow ANY of
those links, but if I had to make an uneduacated guess, "

You don't follow links that have MSDSs but want to make assumptions, that is really funny

.. When we add calcium chloride to our tanks, aren't
we supposed to add a buffer too, to keep thinks ballanced?

We add a buffer, so the Alk and Ca levels are in balance, go back and read the link I
posted on how to do that, you may learn something. Forget it here it is again

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

"Im not sure that
if Calcium chloride were alkaline that it would eat away at tthe Concrete like
acid would.. "

Excuse me but do you know what Sodium Hydroxide is and what it will/would to cement ????
Do you have a clue why Sodium hydroxide is added to tap water to raise the pH up to
9.BECAUSE IT IS ALKALINE . Both acids and alkaline substance can dissolve things. Go look
at a bottle of drain cleaner.There are to types, read the label, they are Hydrochloric
Acid and Sodium Hydroxide ( very high pH). Sodium Hydroxide is also called "caustic soda "
and it will/can severely burn you hands.

The dissolving of concrete is a very complicate issue, when it comes to salts .Here is the
scoop on it
http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/pubs/midcon/Lee.pdf


--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Rod" > wrote in message
...
: >You guys have been taking chemistry advice from him??
:
: Nope, not me ;-)
:
: Better think twice
: >about what he says.
: >
: I always do ;)
:
: Rod Buehler
: www.asplashoflife.com

[stoutman]

>It think we know who the retard is.

We? Are you more than one?

>I buried your silly ass in the last debate

Are you sure about that? I am confident that if you knew what you were
talking about you wouldn't be so sure.

>Still afraid to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson

No, just VERY uninterested. Didn't I tell you this already?

>So much for being a STOUTMAN

You obviously do not know what I mean by Stout. Which by the way, I think I
need one after writing this.

> Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these
values

Did you look at at the MSDS I referenced?

> pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5

This by the way makes very little sense. A range of acidic to basic for the
same solution??? Time to calibrate the pH meter.

> "So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "

And that would be?

> Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a chemist
you would think
> you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;

Lowers it initially? You are adding an acid (CaCl2).

> 2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl
>
> CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2

What?? You are adding CaCl2 to solution, generating HCl and then
neutralizing CaCO3 and generating CaCl2 back again? Are you on drugs??
Once the acid is formed in solution (H3O+) it neutralizes the most abundant
basic anion in solution at pH 8.3 (HCO3-)


4H2O + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2H3O+ + 2Cl-
2H3O+ + Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) ------> 2(H2CO3) + 2H2O + Ca++
2(H2CO3-) -------> H2O + CO2

*CaOH is WEAKLY soluble.

In the above reactions, for every mole of CaCl2 added to solution, you
neutralize two moles of HCO3-.


> You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so he
had to straighten
> you out, yet you are a chemist.
>

He straightened me out? I thought he agreed with me on most points.

You are the one who thinks CaCl2 is not acidic. You need straightening out.

> There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG. About
nil does the pH
> issue even come up

And really a shame. Why do you think that is??

Why do you keep bringing up someone named Randy??








"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> You are so easy to troll it is silly. It think we know who the retard is.
I like arguing
> with clueless people, such as yourself that claims to be a chemist. I
buried your silly
> ass in the last debate and have Millero, Holmes and many ref to back me
up. Still afraid
> to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson, you say your not but I
don't see you
> there.You sound like a empty tin can just rattling around making allot of
noise. So much
> for being a STOUTMAN, one with not balls at all LOL
>
> exert
> Boiling Point: > 1600C (> 2912F)
>
> Melting Point: 772C (1422F)
>
> pH: 8 - 9 Aqueous solution
>
> "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
solution,"
>
> http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
> Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these
values
>
>
> Did you miss this also
>
> HS-No. 282720000
> CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
> Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
> max. 0.001 %;
>
> pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5
>
> "So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "
>
> Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a chemist
you would think
> you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;
>
> 2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl
>
> CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2
>
>
>
> You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so he
had to straighten
> you out, yet you are a chemist.
>
> There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG. About
nil does the pH
> issue even come up
> Matter of fact, articles on discussions of the addition of NaCl2,
Bingman, Holmes etc.
> there has not even a mention of a pH problem, I challenge you to find one.
>
> By the way I though Randy would get another kick out of one of your
replies, here was his
> answer, brief and short. Also, he wrote an article discussing the
Buffering
> Capacity/Buffering Intensity of seawater.I was saving it for you but maybe
you need to do
> a search and find it yourself LOL Maybe you should come over and
straighten him out OK
> ??
> **************************
>
>
>
>
>
> Boomer wrote on 03/02/2004 06:57 PM:
>
> Randy
>
> He is at it again. On a reef newsgroup a guy gave this advice to a reefer
>
> "It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance. If
you need Calcium,
> add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity, add Sodium Bicarbonate.
You need Calcium,
> so add Calcium Chloride slowly until your numbers balance out."
>
> This was Stoutman's reply;
>
> "Be careful with this advice.
>
> Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an
> ACIDIC salt."
>
>
>
>
>
> Randy Holmes-Farley wrote on 03/04/2004 12:04 PM:
>
> That's quite funny!
>
> ***************************************
>
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:Np91c.105045$4o.121807@attbi_s52...
> : Oh boy the retard wants to argue with me again. Calcium chloride is the
> : salt of a weak base and a strong acid. This makes it an acidic salt.
> :
> : http://www.syndel.com/msds/calcium_chloride_msds.html
> :
> : exert:
> :
> : BOILING POINT: >1600°C
> :
> : FREEZING POINT: 772°C
> :
> : pH: Acidic (aqueous solution)
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out of
your
> : ass.
> : >
> : >
> : > "Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
> : salt."
> : >
> : > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
> : >
> : > Humm, gee what does the pH say there
> : >
> : > Here is some more for you
> : >
> : > "The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***, which
can
> : cause accelerated
> : > corrosion of your steel components. "
> : >
> : > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
> : solution,"
> : >
> : > Just so you don't miss it
> : >
> : > "HS-No. 282720000
> : > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
> : > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
> : > max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"
> : >
> : > So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use or
the
> : way we use it
> : >
> : > Here is some more for you
> : >
> : >
> : >
> :
http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specificatio
> : ns.htm
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to
melt
> : snow ?
> : >
> : >
> :
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish
> : 2/aqfm/1999/fe
> : > b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> : >
> : > We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH problems
unless
> : you overdose
> : > it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low Alk
and a
> : degrading pH
> : > .There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in this
> : hobby on the use an
> : > application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst problem
with
> : CaCl, in over
> : > usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people would
be
> : using this stuff
> : > by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of the
pH
> : problem. Some
> : > people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.
> : >
> : > Here is some help for you
> : >
> : > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
> : >
> : > By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though your
> : comments on Alk and
> : > Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the
issue at
> : all.
> : >
> : > By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March 15,
the
> : article on CaCl,
> : > its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them used
in
> : this hobby. Have
> : > a flipin' look
> : >
> : > PS
> : >
> : > I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem Forum
link
> : below and ask
> : > Randy
> : > --
> : > Boomer
> : >
> : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : >
> : > Want to See More ?
> : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > www.coralrealm.com
> : >
> : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> : news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
> : > : Be careful with this advice.
> : > :
> : > : Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
> : salt.
> : > :
> : > :
> : > : "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
> : > : ...
> : > : > (Mike Silver) writes:
> : > : >
> : > : > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year.
Normally
> : the
> : > : > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of
> : 8.0 -
> : > : > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
> : > : > >
> : > : > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now
to
> : > : about
> : > : > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
> : > : > >
> : > : > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or >
11.2 KH
> : > : (much
> : > : > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit
> : higher
> : > : than
> : > : > > the buffer directions said it should be.
> : > : > >
> : > : > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change
Ca
> : > : reactor
> : > : > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a
few
> : > : months
> : > : > > ago.)
> : > : > >
> : > : > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now
is
> : 8.0!
> : > : > > Before lights came on!
> : > : > >
> : > : > > so question is:
> : > : > >
> : > : > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
> : > : >
> : > : > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
> : > : >
> : > : > > What do I do?
> : > : >
> : > : > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
> : > : > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably
more
> : > : > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the
imbalance
> : > : > would be just about perfect.
> : > : >
> : > : > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and
others
> : > : > have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
> : > : > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
> : > : >
> : > : > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up
or
> : > : down?
> : > : >
> : > : > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to
move
> : > : > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as
it
> : > : > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is
ending up
> : > : > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would
be to
> : > : > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank
location.
> : > : > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH
kalk.
> : > : >
> : > : > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
> : > : > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
> : > : > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
> : > : > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
> : > : >
> : > : > > Buffer addition?
> : > : > >
> : > : > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2
bubble
> : rate
> : > : > > and flow rate manuly.
> : > : > >
> : > : > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the
> : buffering
> : > : > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph
should
> : be
> : > : > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and
the
> : KH
> : > : is
> : > : > > high??
> : > : >
> : > : > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of
balance.
> : > : > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need
alkalinity,
> : > : > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
> : > : > slowly until your numbers balance out.
> : > : >
> : > : > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
> : > : > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of
either
> : > : > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution.
You're
> : > : > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to
be
> : > : > closer to NSW than not.
> : > : >
> : > : > Regards,
> : > : > Ross
> : > : >
> : > : > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> : > : > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in
nature...
> : > : > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
> : > :
> : > :
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

Mike, your numbers don't make a lot of sense to me, so I'll just give you the goal
numbers you are looking for.

pH 8.0 - 8.3
Alk 8 - 11 dKH
Ca 400 - 450 ppm
sg 1.026
NO3 - 0
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - 0
Phosphates - .03 or less

A few large water changes will get some of these numbers in range very quickly.
You'll probably want to use some type of Calcium booster like you mentioned, to get
your numbers up to 425ppm. At that point, your kalkwasser drip and/or Ca reactor
should be able to keep it there.

Marc


Mike Silver wrote:

> OK now the followup!
>
> I did stop dripping Kalk after I got Ca++ reactor. It is true Kalk is
> basic, Ca(OH)2 and a reactor will add acid CO2 + H2O > H2CO3 (Carbonic
> acid)
>
> so 1st after I stoped the ractor for a night I got a return of pH to 8.0.
> Truned the reactor back on. tryed to divert the outflow to the protien
> skimmer (very good idea) and did it easyly by could not then regulat the
> drip rate as I couldnt see the drips? what to do ! so I put IV tubing
> from the reactor to where my drop box emptys into the sump.. good water
> flow and some bubbles so hopng to help off gassing of CO2
>
> then I started to drip kalk. twice since my last posting and now I have
> pH of 8.1 befor the lights come on! so problem solved (i hope not too
> quickly ... my colt is drooping but all else are still doing well except
> for my splendid dotty which took the leap last night and committed suicide
> (through a 1" crack!))
>
> But i digress now my measurements are:
>
> pH 8.13 (after kalk, just before lights come on)
>
> KH 300 mg/l (I know way too high ... previously I was adding buffer to
> try and fix pH. I am doing water changes to help this.)
>
> Ca++ 250 ppm
>
> the plan..... 5 - 10% water changes 2-3 times per week over the next few weeks.
>
> keep driping kalk
>
> turn down CO2
>
> no more buffer
>
> Question>>>>
>
> how about just using something like Kent Marine liquid calcium and
> forgetting about reactors and kalk. What does everyone else do to keep
> Ca++ up, ph normal and KH normal?
>
> This whole disscussion has been interesting and very helpful thanks to all!
>
> Mike

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Boomer]

"Why do you keep bringing up someone named Randy??"

LOL, you know who I'm talking about, you know the guy with a Ph.D from Harvard chemistry
with the mile long resume. He runs this forum as I said before, come for a visit. OF
COURSE YOU WON'T, we know what the outcome will be ;-)

Also same guy that wrote some of those articles I told you to read. I even posted one on
this thread.

I know you missed it again so here it is. This is who you will be arguing with. Yah know ,
the guy that said this about your first reply to this post

"That's quite funny!"


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley
Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


"Did you look at the MSDS I referenced?"

Yes and I told you pH depends

"This by the way makes very little sense. A range of acidic to basic for the
same solution??? Time to calibrate the pH meter"

Please inform one of the worlds leaders in ASC certified chemicals they don't know what
they are doing and you do

Alfa Aesar Research Chemicals, Metals and Material
http://www.alfa.com/alf/index.htm
Page126 (1999) paper edition catalog, Stock No. 33296



When you are done with them then you need to call Serva, to straighten their ass out :-)

http://www.serva.de/

"Are you on drugs??"

We know who is on drugs, I thought putting down those equations would confuse you
.........AGAIN. So I'll leave it there.


"He straightened me out? I thought he agreed with me on most points."

Don't make me laugh.

He had to completely explain to you why he gave such advice, you were clueless. Once he
explained it , then you saw the light through the trees.


Another reason for Calcium Hydroxide is many people have problems with single chamber
calcium reactors yielding to much CO2, which often suppresses the pH to lower levels than
you normally want. It is one of the reasons behind dual reactors, CO2 is less of an issue,
usually but not always. Other reasons for using to different buffers, in nonreactor
systems, is dependent on Alk or Calcium demands of the system

GOOD-BYE
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:jIN1c.179352$uV3.759868@attbi_s51...
: >It think we know who the retard is.
:
: We? Are you more than one?
:
: >I buried your silly ass in the last debate
:
: Are you sure about that? I am confident that if you knew what you were
: talking about you wouldn't be so sure.
:
: >Still afraid to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson
:
: No, just VERY uninterested. Didn't I tell you this already?
:
: >So much for being a STOUTMAN
:
: You obviously do not know what I mean by Stout. Which by the way, I think I
: need one after writing this.
:
: > Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these
: values
:
: Did you look at at the MSDS I referenced?
:
: > pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5
:
: This by the way makes very little sense. A range of acidic to basic for the
: same solution??? Time to calibrate the pH meter.
:
: > "So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "
:
: And that would be?
:
: > Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a chemist
: you would think
: > you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;
:
: Lowers it initially? You are adding an acid (CaCl2).
:
: > 2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl
: >
: > CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2
:
: What?? You are adding CaCl2 to solution, generating HCl and then
: neutralizing CaCO3 and generating CaCl2 back again? Are you on drugs??
: Once the acid is formed in solution (H3O+) it neutralizes the most abundant
: basic anion in solution at pH 8.3 (HCO3-)
:
:
: 4H2O + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2H3O+ + 2Cl-
: 2H3O+ + Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) ------> 2(H2CO3) + 2H2O + Ca++
: 2(H2CO3-) -------> H2O + CO2
:
: *CaOH is WEAKLY soluble.
:
: In the above reactions, for every mole of CaCl2 added to solution, you
: neutralize two moles of HCO3-.
:
:
: > You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so he
: had to straighten
: > you out, yet you are a chemist.
: >
:
: He straightened me out? I thought he agreed with me on most points.
:
: You are the one who thinks CaCl2 is not acidic. You need straightening out.
:
: > There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG. About
: nil does the pH
: > issue even come up
:
: And really a shame. Why do you think that is??
:
: Why do you keep bringing up someone named Randy??
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > You are so easy to troll it is silly. It think we know who the retard is.
: I like arguing
: > with clueless people, such as yourself that claims to be a chemist. I
: buried your silly
: > ass in the last debate and have Millero, Holmes and many ref to back me
: up. Still afraid
: > to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson, you say your not but I
: don't see you
: > there.You sound like a empty tin can just rattling around making allot of
: noise. So much
: > for being a STOUTMAN, one with not balls at all LOL
: >
: > exert
: > Boiling Point: > 1600C (> 2912F)
: >
: > Melting Point: 772C (1422F)
: >
: > pH: 8 - 9 Aqueous solution
: >
: > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
: solution,"
: >
: > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
: > Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these
: values
: >
: >
: > Did you miss this also
: >
: > HS-No. 282720000
: > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
: > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
: > max. 0.001 %;
: >
: > pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5
: >
: > "So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "
: >
: > Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a chemist
: you would think
: > you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;
: >
: > 2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl
: >
: > CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2
: >
: >
: >
: > You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so he
: had to straighten
: > you out, yet you are a chemist.
: >
: > There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG. About
: nil does the pH
: > issue even come up
: > Matter of fact, articles on discussions of the addition of NaCl2,
: Bingman, Holmes etc.
: > there has not even a mention of a pH problem, I challenge you to find one.
: >
: > By the way I though Randy would get another kick out of one of your
: replies, here was his
: > answer, brief and short. Also, he wrote an article discussing the
: Buffering
: > Capacity/Buffering Intensity of seawater.I was saving it for you but maybe
: you need to do
: > a search and find it yourself LOL Maybe you should come over and
: straighten him out OK
: > ??
: > **************************
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > Boomer wrote on 03/02/2004 06:57 PM:
: >
: > Randy
: >
: > He is at it again. On a reef newsgroup a guy gave this advice to a reefer
: >
: > "It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance. If
: you need Calcium,
: > add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity, add Sodium Bicarbonate.
: You need Calcium,
: > so add Calcium Chloride slowly until your numbers balance out."
: >
: > This was Stoutman's reply;
: >
: > "Be careful with this advice.
: >
: > Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an
: > ACIDIC salt."
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > Randy Holmes-Farley wrote on 03/04/2004 12:04 PM:
: >
: > That's quite funny!
: >
: > ***************************************
: >
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:Np91c.105045$4o.121807@attbi_s52...
: > : Oh boy the retard wants to argue with me again. Calcium chloride is the
: > : salt of a weak base and a strong acid. This makes it an acidic salt.
: > :
: > : http://www.syndel.com/msds/calcium_chloride_msds.html
: > :
: > : exert:
: > :
: > : BOILING POINT: >1600°C
: > :
: > : FREEZING POINT: 772°C
: > :
: > : pH: Acidic (aqueous solution)
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > : ...
: > : > You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out of
: your
: > : ass.
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > "Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
: > : salt."
: > : >
: > : > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
: > : >
: > : > Humm, gee what does the pH say there
: > : >
: > : > Here is some more for you
: > : >
: > : > "The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***, which
: can
: > : cause accelerated
: > : > corrosion of your steel components. "
: > : >
: > : > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
: > : solution,"
: > : >
: > : > Just so you don't miss it
: > : >
: > : > "HS-No. 282720000
: > : > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
: > : > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
: > : > max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"
: > : >
: > : > So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use or
: the
: > : way we use it
: > : >
: > : > Here is some more for you
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specificatio
: > : ns.htm
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to
: melt
: > : snow ?
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish
: > : 2/aqfm/1999/fe
: > : > b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
: > : >
: > : > We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH problems
: unless
: > : you overdose
: > : > it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low Alk
: and a
: > : degrading pH
: > : > .There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in this
: > : hobby on the use an
: > : > application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst problem
: with
: > : CaCl, in over
: > : > usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people would
: be
: > : using this stuff
: > : > by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of the
: pH
: > : problem. Some
: > : > people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.
: > : >
: > : > Here is some help for you
: > : >
: > : > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
: > : >
: > : > By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though your
: > : comments on Alk and
: > : > Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the
: issue at
: > : all.
: > : >
: > : > By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March 15,
: the
: > : article on CaCl,
: > : > its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them used
: in
: > : this hobby. Have
: > : > a flipin' look
: > : >
: > : > PS
: > : >
: > : > I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem Forum
: link
: > : below and ask
: > : > Randy
: > : > --
: > : > Boomer
: > : >
: > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: > : >
: > : > Want to See More ?
: > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > : > www.coralrealm.com
: > : >
: > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
: > : news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
: > : > : Be careful with this advice.
: > : > :
: > : > : Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an ACIDIC
: > : salt.
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > : "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
: > : > : ...
: > : > : > (Mike Silver) writes:
: > : > : >
: > : > : > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year.
: Normally
: > : the
: > : > : > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with ph of
: > : 8.0 -
: > : > : > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising, now
: to
: > : > : about
: > : > : > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or >
: 11.2 KH
: > : > : (much
: > : > : > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a bit
: > : higher
: > : > : than
: > : > : > > the buffer directions said it should be.
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt change
: Ca
: > : > : reactor
: > : > : > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium a
: few
: > : > : months
: > : > : > > ago.)
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and now
: is
: > : 8.0!
: > : > : > > Before lights came on!
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > so question is:
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > > What do I do?
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your current
: > : > : > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is probably
: more
: > : > : > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the
: imbalance
: > : > : > would be just about perfect.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and
: others
: > : > : > have posted exactly which household product is the best Calcium
: > : > : > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow rate up
: or
: > : > : down?
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want to
: move
: > : > : > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better as
: it
: > : > : > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is
: ending up
: > : > : > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution would
: be to
: > : > : > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank
: location.
: > : > : > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high pH
: kalk.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it. A
: > : > : > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip, though a
: > : > : > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the other's
: > : > : > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > > Buffer addition?
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2
: bubble
: > : rate
: > : > : > > and flow rate manuly.
: > : > : > >
: > : > : > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the
: > : buffering
: > : > : > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the ph
: should
: > : be
: > : > : > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low and
: the
: > : KH
: > : > : is
: > : > : > > high??
: > : > : >
: > : > : > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of
: balance.
: > : > : > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need
: alkalinity,
: > : > : > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium Chloride
: > : > : > slowly until your numbers balance out.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water changes.
: > : > : > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of
: either
: > : > : > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution.
: You're
: > : > : > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better to
: be
: > : > : > closer to NSW than not.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Regards,
: > : > : > Ross
: > : > : >
: > : > : > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
: > : > : > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in
: nature...
: > : > : > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

[stoutman]

Yawn. Very anticlimactic response.





"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> "Why do you keep bringing up someone named Randy??"
>
> LOL, you know who I'm talking about, you know the guy with a Ph.D from
Harvard chemistry
> with the mile long resume. He runs this forum as I said before, come for a
visit. OF
> COURSE YOU WON'T, we know what the outcome will be ;-)
>
> Also same guy that wrote some of those articles I told you to read. I even
posted one on
> this thread.
>
> I know you missed it again so here it is. This is who you will be arguing
with. Yah know ,
> the guy that said this about your first reply to this post
>
> "That's quite funny!"
>
>
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
>
> Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
>
> "Did you look at the MSDS I referenced?"
>
> Yes and I told you pH depends
>
> "This by the way makes very little sense. A range of acidic to basic for
the
> same solution??? Time to calibrate the pH meter"
>
> Please inform one of the worlds leaders in ASC certified chemicals they
don't know what
> they are doing and you do
>
> Alfa Aesar Research Chemicals, Metals and Material
> http://www.alfa.com/alf/index.htm
> Page126 (1999) paper edition catalog, Stock No. 33296
>
>
>
> When you are done with them then you need to call Serva, to straighten
their ass out :-)
>
> http://www.serva.de/
>
> "Are you on drugs??"
>
> We know who is on drugs, I thought putting down those equations would
confuse you
> ........AGAIN. So I'll leave it there.
>
>
> "He straightened me out? I thought he agreed with me on most points."
>
> Don't make me laugh.
>
> He had to completely explain to you why he gave such advice, you were
clueless. Once he
> explained it , then you saw the light through the trees.
>
>
> Another reason for Calcium Hydroxide is many people have problems with
single chamber
> calcium reactors yielding to much CO2, which often suppresses the pH to
lower levels than
> you normally want. It is one of the reasons behind dual reactors, CO2 is
less of an issue,
> usually but not always. Other reasons for using to different buffers, in
nonreactor
> systems, is dependent on Alk or Calcium demands of the system
>
> GOOD-BYE
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:jIN1c.179352$uV3.759868@attbi_s51...
> : >It think we know who the retard is.
> :
> : We? Are you more than one?
> :
> : >I buried your silly ass in the last debate
> :
> : Are you sure about that? I am confident that if you knew what you were
> : talking about you wouldn't be so sure.
> :
> : >Still afraid to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson
> :
> : No, just VERY uninterested. Didn't I tell you this already?
> :
> : >So much for being a STOUTMAN
> :
> : You obviously do not know what I mean by Stout. Which by the way, I
think I
> : need one after writing this.
> :
> : > Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these
> : values
> :
> : Did you look at at the MSDS I referenced?
> :
> : > pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5
> :
> : This by the way makes very little sense. A range of acidic to basic for
the
> : same solution??? Time to calibrate the pH meter.
> :
> : > "So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "
> :
> : And that would be?
> :
> : > Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a
chemist
> : you would think
> : > you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;
> :
> : Lowers it initially? You are adding an acid (CaCl2).
> :
> : > 2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl
> : >
> : > CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2
> :
> : What?? You are adding CaCl2 to solution, generating HCl and then
> : neutralizing CaCO3 and generating CaCl2 back again? Are you on drugs??
> : Once the acid is formed in solution (H3O+) it neutralizes the most
abundant
> : basic anion in solution at pH 8.3 (HCO3-)
> :
> :
> : 4H2O + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2H3O+ + 2Cl-
> : 2H3O+ + Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) ------> 2(H2CO3) + 2H2O + Ca++
> : 2(H2CO3-) -------> H2O + CO2
> :
> : *CaOH is WEAKLY soluble.
> :
> : In the above reactions, for every mole of CaCl2 added to solution, you
> : neutralize two moles of HCO3-.
> :
> :
> : > You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so
he
> : had to straighten
> : > you out, yet you are a chemist.
> : >
> :
> : He straightened me out? I thought he agreed with me on most points.
> :
> : You are the one who thinks CaCl2 is not acidic. You need straightening
out.
> :
> : > There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG.
About
> : nil does the pH
> : > issue even come up
> :
> : And really a shame. Why do you think that is??
> :
> : Why do you keep bringing up someone named Randy??
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > You are so easy to troll it is silly. It think we know who the retard
is.
> : I like arguing
> : > with clueless people, such as yourself that claims to be a chemist. I
> : buried your silly
> : > ass in the last debate and have Millero, Holmes and many ref to back
me
> : up. Still afraid
> : > to come to the reef chemistry forum for a lesson, you say your not but
I
> : don't see you
> : > there.You sound like a empty tin can just rattling around making allot
of
> : noise. So much
> : > for being a STOUTMAN, one with not balls at all LOL
> : >
> : > exert
> : > Boiling Point: > 1600C (> 2912F)
> : >
> : > Melting Point: 772C (1422F)
> : >
> : > pH: 8 - 9 Aqueous solution
> : >
> : > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into aqueous
> : solution,"
> : >
> : > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
> : > Do you even go look.Why not explain this MDS and many MDS's give these
> : values
> : >
> : >
> : > Did you miss this also
> : >
> : > HS-No. 282720000
> : > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
> : > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
> : > max. 0.001 %;
> : >
> : > pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5
> : >
> : > "So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, "
> : >
> : > Yes there are reactions where it lowers the pH initially, being a
chemist
> : you would think
> : > you would know what they are LOL.Here is an idea;
> : >
> : > 2H20 + CaCl2 ---> Ca(OH)2 + 2 HCl
> : >
> : > CaCO3 + 2HCl --> CaCl2 + H2CO3 --> H20 + CO2
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > You are funny guy giving advice and I see you disagreed with Ross, so
he
> : had to straighten
> : > you out, yet you are a chemist.
> : >
> : > There have been 100's of discussion on CaCl2 on boards, forums, NG.
About
> : nil does the pH
> : > issue even come up
> : > Matter of fact, articles on discussions of the addition of NaCl2,
> : Bingman, Holmes etc.
> : > there has not even a mention of a pH problem, I challenge you to find
one.
> : >
> : > By the way I though Randy would get another kick out of one of your
> : replies, here was his
> : > answer, brief and short. Also, he wrote an article discussing the
> : Buffering
> : > Capacity/Buffering Intensity of seawater.I was saving it for you but
maybe
> : you need to do
> : > a search and find it yourself LOL Maybe you should come over and
> : straighten him out OK
> : > ??
> : > **************************
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > Boomer wrote on 03/02/2004 06:57 PM:
> : >
> : > Randy
> : >
> : > He is at it again. On a reef newsgroup a guy gave this advice to a
reefer
> : >
> : > "It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of balance.
If
> : you need Calcium,
> : > add Calcium Chloride. If you need alkalinity, add Sodium Bicarbonate.
> : You need Calcium,
> : > so add Calcium Chloride slowly until your numbers balance out."
> : >
> : > This was Stoutman's reply;
> : >
> : > "Be careful with this advice.
> : >
> : > Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an
> : > ACIDIC salt."
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > Randy Holmes-Farley wrote on 03/04/2004 12:04 PM:
> : >
> : > That's quite funny!
> : >
> : > ***************************************
> : >
> : >
> : > --
> : > Boomer
> : >
> : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : >
> : > Want to See More ?
> : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > www.coralrealm.com
> : >
> : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:Np91c.105045$4o.121807@attbi_s52...
> : > : Oh boy the retard wants to argue with me again. Calcium chloride is
the
> : > : salt of a weak base and a strong acid. This makes it an acidic
salt.
> : > :
> : > : http://www.syndel.com/msds/calcium_chloride_msds.html
> : > :
> : > : exert:
> : > :
> : > : BOILING POINT: >1600°C
> : > :
> : > : FREEZING POINT: 772°C
> : > :
> : > : pH: Acidic (aqueous solution)
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > :
> : > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : > : ...
> : > : > You need to get a handle on things there pal and get you head out
of
> : your
> : > : ass.
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > "Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an
ACIDIC
> : > : salt."
> : > : >
> : > : > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm
> : > : >
> : > : > Humm, gee what does the pH say there
> : > : >
> : > : > Here is some more for you
> : > : >
> : > : > "The pH of untreated calcium chloride is ****very alkaline***,
which
> : can
> : > : cause accelerated
> : > : > corrosion of your steel components. "
> : > : >
> : > : > "calcium chloride has a pH between 8 and 9 when dissolved into
aqueous
> : > : solution,"
> : > : >
> : > : > Just so you don't miss it
> : > : >
> : > : > "HS-No. 282720000
> : > : > CaCl2.2H2O . Mr 147.0 . CAS-No. [10035-04-8] . USP, Ph. Eur.
> : > : > Min. 99 % (titr.). Sulfate max. 0.005 %; Heavy metals (Pb)
> : > : > max. 0.001 %; pH 5 % in water 4.5-8.5"
> : > : >
> : > : > So yes it can/could have a low pH, depending, not the stuff we use
or
> : the
> : > : way we use it
> : > : >
> : > : > Here is some more for you
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > :
> :
http://www.peterschemical.com/Calcium%20Chloride%20Liquid%20-%20Specificatio
> : > : ns.htm
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > Yah think if it was an acid we would be using it on our streets to
> : melt
> : > : snow ?
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > :
> :
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:CLpYn4tJxKwJ:www.animalnetwork.com/fish
> : > : 2/aqfm/1999/fe
> : > : > b/bio/default.asp+aqfm+site:animalnetwork.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> : > : >
> : > : > We have used this stuff for 2 decades, it rarely caused pH
problems
> : unless
> : > : you overdose
> : > : > it, where the Ca picks-up a CO3 and leaves solution, thus a low
Alk
> : and a
> : > : degrading pH
> : > : > .There have been a number of articles written by Ph.D chemists in
this
> : > : hobby on the use an
> : > : > application of CaCl. Maybe you should go find one. The worst
problem
> : with
> : > : CaCl, in over
> : > : > usage, is that it cause an ionic imbalance. Do you thing people
would
> : be
> : > : using this stuff
> : > : > by the spoonfuls, if it lowered the pH or there was a lowering of
the
> : pH
> : > : problem. Some
> : > : > people use "Snow-Melt" in their tank, both kinds, CaCl and MgCl.
> : > : >
> : > : > Here is some help for you
> : > : >
> : > : > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
> : > : >
> : > : > By the way, Dr.Fank Millero and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley though
your
> : > : comments on Alk and
> : > : > Buffering Capacity were rather funny and you don't understand the
> : issue at
> : > : all.
> : > : >
> : > : > By the way in a few more days Randy will be releasing, on March
15,
> : the
> : > : article on CaCl,
> : > : > its use in reef tanks and to include assays of a number of them
used
> : in
> : > : this hobby. Have
> : > : > a flipin' look
> : > : >
> : > : > PS
> : > : >
> : > : > I will not reply to this post .If any have issue go to the Chem
Forum
> : link
> : > : below and ask
> : > : > Randy
> : > : > --
> : > : > Boomer
> : > : >
> : > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : > : >
> : > : > Want to See More ?
> : > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > : > www.coralrealm.com
> : > : >
> : > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> : > : news:fM41c.164848$jk2.607061@attbi_s53...
> : > : > : Be careful with this advice.
> : > : > :
> : > : > : Calcium Chloride will LOWER your pH. Calcium chloride is an
ACIDIC
> : > : salt.
> : > : > :
> : > : > :
> : > : > : "Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
> : > : > : ...
> : > : > : > (Mike Silver) writes:
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > > I have a calcium ractor, been runnig it for about a year.
> : Normally
> : > : the
> : > : > : > > Ca++ was around 400 ppm. thought everything was good with
ph of
> : > : 8.0 -
> : > : > : > > 8.2. Then recalibrated my pH meter and now reading 7.6!!
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > Yikes... Started adding buffer daily. pH was slowly rising,
now
> : to
> : > : > : about
> : > : > : > > 7.8 (before lights come on).
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > Just got a Carbonate Hardness test and it read >200mg/L or >
> : 11.2 KH
> : > : > : (much
> : > : > : > > higher than the hardness test said it should be but just a
bit
> : > : higher
> : > : > : than
> : > : > : > > the buffer directions said it should be.
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > Now I measure Ca++ and it is down to 240 ppm !! (didnt
change
> : Ca
> : > : > : reactor
> : > : > : > > settings and it seems to be working well, changed the medium
a
> : few
> : > : > : months
> : > : > : > > ago.)
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > Turned off the Ca reactor and within an hour the pH rose and
now
> : is
> : > : 8.0!
> : > : > : > > Before lights came on!
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > so question is:
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > pH too low, Ca++ too low and Carbonate Hardness too high!!
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > Sounds like a job for Calcium Chloride.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > > What do I do?
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > Don't panic. Very little will be actually harmed by your
current
> : > : > : > conditions. Trying to quickly correct the imbalance is
probably
> : more
> : > : > : > stressful than leaving things alone. Slowly correcting the
> : imbalance
> : > : > : > would be just about perfect.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > I don't have the time to figure out the amounts right now, and
> : others
> : > : > : > have posted exactly which household product is the best
Calcium
> : > : > : > Chloride and how to figure out how much to add.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > > turn CO2 on the reactor up or down? Turn the water flow
rate up
> : or
> : > : > : down?
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > Leave the reactor alone, it's working just fine. You may want
to
> : move
> : > : > : > the effluent output line to a place where it can outgas better
as
> : it
> : > : > : > sounds like too much of the residual CO2 from the reactor is
> : ending up
> : > : > : > in your water (that's the low pH). A longer term solution
would
> : be to
> : > : > : > have the calcium reactor and your kalk drip in the same tank
> : location.
> : > : > : > This will allow the low pH calcium reactor to offset the high
pH
> : kalk.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > If you're not dripping kalk, you might want to think about it.
A
> : > : > : > calcium reactor doesn't necessarily replace a kalk drip,
though a
> : > : > : > lot of people think it does. The two together offset the
other's
> : > : > : > trade-offs and are often better than either one alone.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > > Buffer addition?
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > My reactor is not regulated by a pH meter, I just adjust CO2
> : bubble
> : > : rate
> : > : > : > > and flow rate manuly.
> : > : > : > >
> : > : > : > > This dosent make sense to me that the KH is high and so the
> : > : buffering
> : > : > : > > capacity should be high and so Ca++ should be high and the
ph
> : should
> : > : be
> : > : > : > > around 8.0 - 8.3. What does it mean when ph and Ca++ is low
and
> : the
> : > : KH
> : > : > : is
> : > : > : > > high??
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > It means that your alkalinity and Calcium have come out of
> : balance.
> : > : > : > If you need Calcium, add Calcium Chloride. If you need
> : alkalinity,
> : > : > : > add Sodium Bicarbonate. You need Calcium, so add Calcium
Chloride
> : > : > : > slowly until your numbers balance out.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > I would also increase the amounts of your next few water
changes.
> : > : > : > When you have to add NaHCO3 or CaCl, you're increasing one of
> : either
> : > : > : > Sodium or Chloride at the expense of other ions in solution.
> : You're
> : > : > : > not going to have bad things happen with this fix, but better
to
> : be
> : > : > : > closer to NSW than not.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > Regards,
> : > : > : > Ross
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
> : > : > : > "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in
> : nature...
> : > : > : > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen
Keller
> : > : > :
> : > : > :
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > :
> : > :
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>