Should I remove my trickle filter?

[Stu]

Hi all,

I have a 140g with a trickle filter in the sump. 4" DSB, around 90 lbs
of (once dead) base rock and 75 lbs of live rock (which may be
insufficient). Rock is doing well with lots of worms, brittle stars, a
healthy population of amphipods etc. The tank cycled/was left for ~4
months before I started adding fish, have had fish for ~6 months.

My nitrates are usually around 20-40ppm before a water change, which I
find is usually fine. I've been told that nitrates aren't a problem
for fish, only inverts, but I've also read some tangs don't tolerate
nitrates well. My blue tang has white spot, and since I've already
lost a blue tang to it before maybe I should look at improving my
water quality?

I've got a trickle filter / wet-dry in the sump, which is more wet
than dry (75% submerged usually I'd say). The media is a combination
of small shells, some crushed dead coral, and some short lengths of
black plastic retic pipe. The trickle filter seems to trap a lot of
dirt and algae which accumulates in the bottom of the next section of
the sump (where the return pump is). There's a picture here:
http://sswain.tripod.com/tank/AUT_0804.JPG - it's an old pic but still
gives you an idea.

I've heard trickle filters are nitrate factories. Is this only with
bio balls and sponge type media? Should I look at removing the media
from my sump, and maybe replacing it with some live rock (or a
refugium)?

If I remove it then any bacteria in it will die off so I'm worried
that if I went down that avenue and my water quality decreased, then
it would take a long time to reestablish the bacteria in the filter.

Thoughts/opinions?

Cheers,
Stu

[PaulB]

I removed the media from mine long ago and replaced it with rock. You have
plenty of live rock so I wouldn't be concerned.


"Stu" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I have a 140g with a trickle filter in the sump. 4" DSB, around 90 lbs
> of (once dead) base rock and 75 lbs of live rock (which may be
> insufficient). Rock is doing well with lots of worms, brittle stars, a
> healthy population of amphipods etc. The tank cycled/was left for ~4
> months before I started adding fish, have had fish for ~6 months.
>
> My nitrates are usually around 20-40ppm before a water change, which I
> find is usually fine. I've been told that nitrates aren't a problem
> for fish, only inverts, but I've also read some tangs don't tolerate
> nitrates well. My blue tang has white spot, and since I've already
> lost a blue tang to it before maybe I should look at improving my
> water quality?
>
> I've got a trickle filter / wet-dry in the sump, which is more wet
> than dry (75% submerged usually I'd say). The media is a combination
> of small shells, some crushed dead coral, and some short lengths of
> black plastic retic pipe. The trickle filter seems to trap a lot of
> dirt and algae which accumulates in the bottom of the next section of
> the sump (where the return pump is). There's a picture here:
> http://sswain.tripod.com/tank/AUT_0804.JPG - it's an old pic but still
> gives you an idea.
>
> I've heard trickle filters are nitrate factories. Is this only with
> bio balls and sponge type media? Should I look at removing the media
> from my sump, and maybe replacing it with some live rock (or a
> refugium)?
>
> If I remove it then any bacteria in it will die off so I'm worried
> that if I went down that avenue and my water quality decreased, then
> it would take a long time to reestablish the bacteria in the filter.
>
> Thoughts/opinions?
>
> Cheers,
> Stu
>

[Marc Levenson]

Wow, we've not heard from you in months, Stu!

If your stuff is submerged, it should not create nitrates, but if it is a
wet/dry design with dripping and stuff exposed to air, it will.

Marc


Stu wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have a 140g with a trickle filter in the sump. 4" DSB, around 90 lbs
> of (once dead) base rock and 75 lbs of live rock (which may be
> insufficient). Rock is doing well with lots of worms, brittle stars, a
> healthy population of amphipods etc. The tank cycled/was left for ~4
> months before I started adding fish, have had fish for ~6 months.
>
> My nitrates are usually around 20-40ppm before a water change, which I
> find is usually fine. I've been told that nitrates aren't a problem
> for fish, only inverts, but I've also read some tangs don't tolerate
> nitrates well. My blue tang has white spot, and since I've already
> lost a blue tang to it before maybe I should look at improving my
> water quality?
>
> I've got a trickle filter / wet-dry in the sump, which is more wet
> than dry (75% submerged usually I'd say). The media is a combination
> of small shells, some crushed dead coral, and some short lengths of
> black plastic retic pipe. The trickle filter seems to trap a lot of
> dirt and algae which accumulates in the bottom of the next section of
> the sump (where the return pump is). There's a picture here:
> http://sswain.tripod.com/tank/AUT_0804.JPG - it's an old pic but still
> gives you an idea.
>
> I've heard trickle filters are nitrate factories. Is this only with
> bio balls and sponge type media? Should I look at removing the media
> from my sump, and maybe replacing it with some live rock (or a
> refugium)?
>
> If I remove it then any bacteria in it will die off so I'm worried
> that if I went down that avenue and my water quality decreased, then
> it would take a long time to reestablish the bacteria in the filter.
>
> Thoughts/opinions?
>
> Cheers,
> Stu

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[Rod]

>
>If your stuff is submerged, it should not >create nitrates,

Hi Marc
Are you sure?.. It is still oxygen rich water passing over media that has no
anoxic zones for anaerobic bacteria.. I would guess the the submerge bioballs
are still converting the ammonia to nitrites, then nitrates due to the oxygen
rich water even though they are submerged. But, there is no anoxic areas to
complete the cycle
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[Mermaid]

Stu,
All I can tell you is I had the same thing underneath my tank. I was
battling GHA like mad. Could not move forward in getting new inverts until I
solved my problem. I had a level of 5-10 nitrates and even though my tests
did not show it, I am sure I had a phosphates or an excess nutrient problem.
Against my LFS advice which I think is behind times. I converted my sump
with bioballs into a refugium. I put a 3" sand bed, live rock and some
caulerpa and after the next water change, my tank did a turn around. I don't
think I even have a piece of GHA in there now. (Knock on Wood) I also added
a kalk drip. No nitrates are detected now. My tank looks completely
different now and I'm starting to add more corals. I would at least get rid
of the bioballs and use live rock instead. If you use caulerpa like I did
which feeds on nitrates you will have to light it 24/7. Make sure you cover
your clear tubing from light so you don't get algae and all kinds of stuff
growing in them. It has made a change in my skimmer too. I would do it, I
was hesitant too but my tank looks great now.

And by the way, thanks, Marc for the encouragement

Just my 2 cents.
Paulette Tawzer

[Pszemol]

"Rod" > wrote in message ...
> Are you sure?.. It is still oxygen rich water passing over media that has no
> anoxic zones for anaerobic bacteria.. I would guess the the submerge bioballs
> are still converting the ammonia to nitrites, then nitrates due to the oxygen
> rich water even though they are submerged.

Agree. It just has better efficiency producing nitrates when running wet/dry.

[CapFusion]

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> Wow, we've not heard from you in months, Stu!
>
> If your stuff is submerged, it should not create nitrates, but if it is a
> wet/dry design with dripping and stuff exposed to air, it will.
>
> Marc
Becarefull here. Eventhough it not fully submerge, it will still be a
nitrate factory since bacteria still live in it. It will not be as effecient
compare to those expose to air.

CapFusion,...

[Aquatic-Care]

You are still going to produce Nitrate with submerged media, but not as
efficiently.

aquacare


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[Aquatic-Care]

Stu,

Based on the picture I don't think your problem is with excess Nitrate from
"The Nirtate Factory". It looks like your "Dry" section of your filter is
loaded with excess waste products. I would through out the crushed coral and
shells. It looks like it is trapping everything. Your live rock should be
able to handle the excess biological strain till the new bacteria on the
media takes over.

PS: The term "Nirtrate Factory" is a little disturbing to me. I see and hear
this phrase alot. Any biological filter will produce Nitrate in varying
amounts. A trickle filter will produce more Nitrate compared to a canister,
for example because the wet/dry's more efficient at converting waste to
Nitrate. That is what biological filters do !!!

Water changes are one way of removing this waste product. Some of the others
are Refugium, Nitrate filters and a few others, including your live rock
which will help remove Nitrate as well (the anaerobic center of the rock).
IMO water changes are still the most beneficial solution to Nitrate on many
levels. This is assuming you are using Nitrate free water?

Just make sure you don't have any place in the aquarium that traps waste,
that you can't clean weekly.

aquacare