ARRGG! Tank wiped out! Can't figure what went wrong

[Les Johnstone]

Hi all,



My tank has been running for three months now, set up with very much
appreciated help from you guys.



I thought I was doing very well, after three months, not one death, I was
thinking I had a good set up. Then within one week all fish and inverts have
died, I can't figure out why, maybe someone can suggest something. This is
long winded, but just to give as much information as possible.



My set up:



80 gallon tank 24 x 18 x 48

4 x 55W T5 tubes (7.1K) under hood

1 x Actinic Blue tube 42W

60lbs Crushed coral

20lbs aragonite sand

30KG ocean rock

2KG lump of live rock (I was building up stock of this, its $25 a Kilo in
the UK!)

2 x 100W heaters

1 x 1000 L/h external filter

1 x Fluval 4 internal filter (for water movement)



No skimmer (I was waiting for tank to mature)

No carbon or UV

I use "Clearwater" filter bag to remove Phosphate and Nitrate.



Stock that died:

1 x Bi colour Angel

1 x Powder Blue Tang

1 x Percula Clown

1 x Royal Gramma

1 x Mandarin fish

2 x yellow tail Damsels

1 x Feather duster

1 x Black urchin

10 x turbo snails



All that's left is a Red Blenny who seems quite happy



Water:

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 5ppm

PH 8.3

Salinity 1.22

Phosphate 0.5

Temp 28C (having trouble getting it lower due to the lights)



I have a bit of a problem with green slime algae it covers the gravel and
rock within two days of me stirring it up. My live rock just looks the same
as the day I bought it except partly covered with green slime.



I was on holiday for a week, I used an auto feeder to drop in a mixture of
marine flake and seaweed flakes (for the tang) I came back to the bi angel
dead and the Tang with white spot, the damsel with pop eye. It took me three
days to get medication (Waterlife Myxazin) Adding as directed had no effect
and the rest of the stock died over the next week. All water parameters
(that I can measure) seem OK



It looks like a bacterial infection, but is this because the fish were
stressed in some way, or just because the bacterial got into the tank. It's
beyond my experience to figure it out.



I don't know weather its safe to add more fish (I changed 50% of water after
the deaths) or to dismantle and start from scratch.



Many thanks for any ideas.

[Ross Bagley]

"Les Johnstone" > writes:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> My tank has been running for three months now, set up with very much
> appreciated help from you guys.

I wouldn't have had that many fish for at least a full year. Three
months is still an infant tank and still stabilizing it's chemistry.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Richard Reynolds]

> > My tank has been running for three months now, set up with very much
> > appreciated help from you guys.

> I wouldn't have had that many fish for at least a full year. Three
> months is still an infant tank and still stabilizing it's chemistry.

nah a day after the cycle is finished fish are ok,

inverts/corals that can be a different story

--
Richard Reynolds

[Phil]

Hi Les

I'm no expert -- also only in this for a few months, but we had a problem
that sounds horribly similar. All water conditions checked out OK, but we
had been getting quite a bit of algae -- mostly red (successfuly killed off
by taking out the rock and treating with Antired) . Our tank is 48"
(1220mm) long * 14" * 16" (I think) and roughly 180 litres. We don't have
a sump, but run an Eheim 2217 filled with rings, substrate and filter wool
at the top and an air driven skimmer. We had 2 * 1200 l/hr powerheads, a
heater and a chiller. Approx 11 corals (mostly soft) and all doing really
well. Fish were 2 Birdnose Wrasse, 1 Royal Gramma, 2 Clark's Clowns, 1 Blue
Tang, 1 Sailfin Tang. The Blue Tang got white spot, which then spread to
the Gramma, the Sailfin and 1 Clown. We started treating the tank with
Melafix (I don't think it helped), reduced the salinity and kept the lights
off for a while -- also added a UV steriliser. We seemed to be getting on
top of the problem, but then the Blue Tang died and the Royal Gramma a few
days later. The Sailfin got very lethargic and hid under a rock and it was
obvious we were getting worse.

My adviser (the LFS owner) kindly came and had a look and immediately blamed
low redox potential. His view was the sandbed was too thick (about 50 mm),
there was too much live rock in contact with the sand and not enough surface
movement of the water. We then stripped out the tank completely, removed
most of the sand, he took the corals away to look after them, we rearranged
the rock to just balance on the tips, and added a large (linear) airstone
which I now run for a few hours each day. We moved the survivors to a
quarantine tank (we built it on the night) so we could treat them with
copper -- also running at a low salinity (1.018). After a few days we lost
all but the male Birdnose wrasse, who is still there and doing really
well -- he now eats from my hand.

After a few days, we put the coral back in and "seeded" the aquarium with 4
* small Blue Chromis who are doing very well ( a bit of white spot came and
went in the first three days) and have been there nearly two weeks -- slowly
bringing the salinity back up to 1.023. I intend to put the Wrasse back in
another 10 days or so.

Hopefully the problem is behind us -- don't know if it is related to your
issue. I'd be interested to know what others think.

Phil






"Les Johnstone" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> My tank has been running for three months now, set up with very much
> appreciated help from you guys.
>
>
>
> I thought I was doing very well, after three months, not one death, I was
> thinking I had a good set up. Then within one week all fish and inverts
have
> died, I can't figure out why, maybe someone can suggest something. This is
> long winded, but just to give as much information as possible.
>
>
>
> My set up:
>
>
>
> 80 gallon tank 24 x 18 x 48
>
> 4 x 55W T5 tubes (7.1K) under hood
>
> 1 x Actinic Blue tube 42W
>
> 60lbs Crushed coral
>
> 20lbs aragonite sand
>
> 30KG ocean rock
>
> 2KG lump of live rock (I was building up stock of this, its $25 a Kilo in
> the UK!)
>
> 2 x 100W heaters
>
> 1 x 1000 L/h external filter
>
> 1 x Fluval 4 internal filter (for water movement)
>
>
>
> No skimmer (I was waiting for tank to mature)
>
> No carbon or UV
>
> I use "Clearwater" filter bag to remove Phosphate and Nitrate.
>
>
>
> Stock that died:
>
> 1 x Bi colour Angel
>
> 1 x Powder Blue Tang
>
> 1 x Percula Clown
>
> 1 x Royal Gramma
>
> 1 x Mandarin fish
>
> 2 x yellow tail Damsels
>
> 1 x Feather duster
>
> 1 x Black urchin
>
> 10 x turbo snails
>
>
>
> All that's left is a Red Blenny who seems quite happy
>
>
>
> Water:
>
> Ammonia 0
>
> Nitrite 0
>
> Nitrate 5ppm
>
> PH 8.3
>
> Salinity 1.22
>
> Phosphate 0.5
>
> Temp 28C (having trouble getting it lower due to the lights)
>
>
>
> I have a bit of a problem with green slime algae it covers the gravel and
> rock within two days of me stirring it up. My live rock just looks the
same
> as the day I bought it except partly covered with green slime.
>
>
>
> I was on holiday for a week, I used an auto feeder to drop in a mixture of
> marine flake and seaweed flakes (for the tang) I came back to the bi angel
> dead and the Tang with white spot, the damsel with pop eye. It took me
three
> days to get medication (Waterlife Myxazin) Adding as directed had no
effect
> and the rest of the stock died over the next week. All water parameters
> (that I can measure) seem OK
>
>
>
> It looks like a bacterial infection, but is this because the fish were
> stressed in some way, or just because the bacterial got into the tank.
It's
> beyond my experience to figure it out.
>
>
>
> I don't know weather its safe to add more fish (I changed 50% of water
after
> the deaths) or to dismantle and start from scratch.
>
>
>
> Many thanks for any ideas.
>
>

[Patrick]

"Les Johnstone" > wrote in message >...
> Hi all,
>
> Salinity 1.22
>




Is this a typo??? Maybe you meant 1.022? If it truly is 1.22, then
you have WAY too much salt in your mix!!!!!

[Steve Sells]

Why say it was too thick? I have about 2 times that depth, , IF the sand
bed was seeded it should be fine. But many owners wont change from the way
they were keeping their fish 20 years ago.

Steve

"Phil" > wrote in message
<snip> (the LFS owner) kindly came and had a look and immediately blamed
> low redox potential. His view was the sandbed was too thick (about 50
mm),
> there was too much live rock in contact with the sand and not enough
surface
> movement of the water.
<snip>

[Ross Bagley]

"Richard Reynolds" > writes:

> > > My tank has been running for three months now, set up with very much
> > > appreciated help from you guys.
>
> > I wouldn't have had that many fish for at least a full year. Three
> > months is still an infant tank and still stabilizing it's chemistry.
>
> nah a day after the cycle is finished fish are ok,
>
> inverts/corals that can be a different story

But when you mix them...

A starving Xenia or sea cucumber dies, releasing some fairly toxic
guts or rotting flesh. The mandarin (who was always a little nervous)
bites it. Three sponges on the underside of the live rock give up the
ghost in the now *really* toxic water. Some of the tougher fish can't
handle these new poisons and...

Tank crashes are invariably a cascade of little catastrophies that
snowball into bigger catastrophies resulting in a mostly dead tank.
New tanks just don't have the supporting populations to absorb the
little problems at the beginning of the chain that lead to the
really dramatic problems at the end of the chain.

And it would take me a year just to put that many different fish
through quarantine and acclimation in the tank. But then I'm really
wierd that way.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[Toni]

"Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
...
>
> And it would take me a year just to put that many different fish
> through quarantine and acclimation in the tank. But then I'm really
> wierd that way.
>


Some of us agree with you- my new reef tank has been cycled since late
January and I've yet to add a fish.... and they *all* will be quarantined
for a minimum of 4 weeks.
I have so much invested that I want to do everything possible to get things
off to a proper start. Not that problems won't still crop up- but at least
I'll know I did everything possible to ensure success.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/reef.htm

[Les Johnstone]

Thanks for advise so far guys, yet it should have read 1.022, just a typo.

It sounds like I added two many fish to quick? Maybe using my freshwater
experience was not the right thing to do. I guessed it would be OK as the
water readings seemed fine. My sand bed is 2 inches in places. Maybe its to
think. I had head certain unfriendly bacteria form in the lower part of a
bed that's too thick, but not quite as thick as a DSB?

Les

"Patrick" > wrote in message
om...
> "Les Johnstone" > wrote in message
>...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Salinity 1.22
> >
>
>
>
>
> Is this a typo??? Maybe you meant 1.022? If it truly is 1.22, then
> you have WAY too much salt in your mix!!!!!

[Richard Reynolds]

> > inverts/corals that can be a different story

> But when you mix them...

right and I agree here, but the comment was " I wouldn't have had that many fish for at
least a full year"

> A starving Xenia or sea cucumber dies, releasing some fairly toxic
> guts or rotting flesh. The mandarin (who was always a little nervous)
> bites it. Three sponges on the underside of the live rock give up the
> ghost in the now *really* toxic water. Some of the tougher fish can't
> handle these new poisons and...

AFAIK the poision in the mandarins is only in there skin, best your gona do is increase
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate

its fairly tested ive lost a few in a small water volume:D largest loss so far was 20 in a
day in a 10gallon tank.

> And it would take me a year just to put that many different fish
> through quarantine and acclimation in the tank. But then I'm really
> wierd that way.

even at 6 months or 1 year in quarantine you can quarantine all at the same time(pref in
different tanks), add them near the same time and have the same results.
I wont recomend quarantining a mandarin treat it if its got ich, for a week or so then add
to the tank, they are not as good at carrying ich, though they can have the parasites when
they are in there active stage.

--
Richard Reynolds

[John Krempasky]

"Les Johnstone" > wrote in message
...

> No skimmer (I was waiting for tank to mature)


Huh? That many fish and you didn't skim? Where did you get the advice to
"wait for your tank to mature" to skim?

With a new tank, and adding fish and live rock quickly, is THE time to be
skimming like a maniac.

While not having a skimmer probably didn't cause the original problem, not
having one probably contributed greatly to whatever problem you had getting
out of hand, particularly if you were away for a week.

[Les Johnstone]

Ahh, Ok I see what you mean. I was under the impression that the skimmer
wouldn't work until wastes had built up in the water for it to work on. I
also had a LFS guy tell me a skimmer was not essential for a FO set-up, but
would be good to have. Lesson learned! Can the lack of skimmer explain the
green slime algae even with low nutrients like 5ppm nitrate and 0.5
phosphate.

Anyway, im still not sure what wiped out my tank, as I don't have the stock
given in the examples. I'm not even sure why the Blue powder tang didn't
respond to treatment.

But any advise on what I do now? Do I need to empty out the tank, clean and
restart, or can I add fish (skimmer first!) to the same water?

Cheers
Les


"John Krempasky" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Les Johnstone" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > No skimmer (I was waiting for tank to mature)
>
>
> Huh? That many fish and you didn't skim? Where did you get the advice to
> "wait for your tank to mature" to skim?
>
> With a new tank, and adding fish and live rock quickly, is THE time to be
> skimming like a maniac.
>
> While not having a skimmer probably didn't cause the original problem, not
> having one probably contributed greatly to whatever problem you had
getting
> out of hand, particularly if you were away for a week.
>
>

[John Krempasky]

"Les Johnstone" > wrote in message
...
> Ahh, Ok I see what you mean. I was under the impression that the skimmer
> wouldn't work until wastes had built up in the water for it to work on.

There's enough waste for a skimmer to pull out brown or black gunk the
second you add live rock, even WITHOUT any fish. With the number of fish
you have you should have had a lot of waste instantly.


> also had a LFS guy tell me a skimmer was not essential for a FO set-up,
but
> would be good to have. Lesson learned! Can the lack of skimmer explain the
> green slime algae even with low nutrients like 5ppm nitrate and 0.5
> phosphate.

Possibly. What test kits do you use?

It also seems like you had VERY low water movement. Not sure why you're
using a filter in the tank for water movement; 3-4 powerheads would be
better.

> Anyway, im still not sure what wiped out my tank, as I don't have the
stock
> given in the examples. I'm not even sure why the Blue powder tang didn't
> respond to treatment.

Seems like an odd combo of deaths and 1 fish surviving....for all those
fish, PLUS an urchin and turbo snails to go.

Not familiar with medications really, but it's possible the medications
didn't work on the fish, and the medication also killed your inverts.

You really don't want to be medicating your main tank, but a quarantine tank
instead.



> But any advise on what I do now? Do I need to empty out the tank, clean
and
> restart, or can I add fish (skimmer first!) to the same water?

Hmm, I'd suggest a restart after doing some research for 5-6 months. For a
three month old tank you really had an ENORMOUS amount of fish...did people
in this group really advise that? Or was it the local fish store?

Also your Mandarin Fish most likely would have died within a few months
anyway and I'm sure anyone familiar with them would have strongly
recommended against getting one....they need mature tanks with live
sand...was it eating anything?

[Les Johnstone]

Hi John,

Thanks for all your comments,

The red Blenny has not died so its a total wipe out! I would say I got the
set up help from the group, not that I followed it to the letter, but I took
the stocking advise from local shop who seemed to be saying once it had
cycled that was it and I could add the fish safely he was selling me. To be
honest I didn't think it was a lot for an 80 gallon, but I guess that's why
I still need to do the research! I'll take your advice about restarting
after reading up. My main frustration is not knowing what caused the wipe
out so I can be sure I don't make the same mistake again. I think my early
success with the first three fish gave me a false sense of security that
nothing would go wrong!

I have a mixture of test kits, the Phosphate is Hagen, and the rest API

I just put the internal filter in because it was spare, but I now have two
1000lph powerheads. What does this seem the right turn over for the
powerhead or what would you recommend?

I did buy copper free medication for tanks with inverts, but the
instructions gave the impression they were not that strong. They advised
taking the fish out and treating with a copper based medication if it didn't
work.

This has also made me think I should use a stereliser? I know some people
advise against it, but as I can only think it was a bacterial problem (the
water quality seemed OK) I think I might need it?

Thanks for all your help
Les

"John Krempasky" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Les Johnstone" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ahh, Ok I see what you mean. I was under the impression that the skimmer
> > wouldn't work until wastes had built up in the water for it to work on.
>
> There's enough waste for a skimmer to pull out brown or black gunk the
> second you add live rock, even WITHOUT any fish. With the number of fish
> you have you should have had a lot of waste instantly.
>
>
> > also had a LFS guy tell me a skimmer was not essential for a FO set-up,
> but
> > would be good to have. Lesson learned! Can the lack of skimmer explain
the
> > green slime algae even with low nutrients like 5ppm nitrate and 0.5
> > phosphate.
>
> Possibly. What test kits do you use?
>
> It also seems like you had VERY low water movement. Not sure why you're
> using a filter in the tank for water movement; 3-4 powerheads would be
> better.
>
> > Anyway, im still not sure what wiped out my tank, as I don't have the
> stock
> > given in the examples. I'm not even sure why the Blue powder tang didn't
> > respond to treatment.
>
> Seems like an odd combo of deaths and 1 fish surviving....for all those
> fish, PLUS an urchin and turbo snails to go.
>
> Not familiar with medications really, but it's possible the medications
> didn't work on the fish, and the medication also killed your inverts.
>
> You really don't want to be medicating your main tank, but a quarantine
tank
> instead.
>
>
>
> > But any advise on what I do now? Do I need to empty out the tank, clean
> and
> > restart, or can I add fish (skimmer first!) to the same water?
>
> Hmm, I'd suggest a restart after doing some research for 5-6 months. For a
> three month old tank you really had an ENORMOUS amount of fish...did
people
> in this group really advise that? Or was it the local fish store?
>
> Also your Mandarin Fish most likely would have died within a few months
> anyway and I'm sure anyone familiar with them would have strongly
> recommended against getting one....they need mature tanks with live
> sand...was it eating anything?
>
>
>