Almost done cycling, clean up crew question

[Christ's Soldiers]

My new 75 gallon setup is almost done cycling. It does still have
ammonia and will have for a few days because instead of doing one giant
water change now that the live rock is pretty much cured I am doing
several smaller (about 3 to 4 gallons) daily for about a week. The
reasons why are partly due to my RO filter not producing water fast
enough for all of the change at once and partly do to lazyness.

Anyway, do you all add you crabs and snails and stuff after you have
completely cycled or do you just pop them in there earlier. I know that
the crabs can handle a little ammonia so long as the nitrates don't go
crazy but what about snails?

And finally, this "Total Reef Care Special #2" listed here looks like a
steller deal, http://www.reeftopia.com/Reeftopiaspecials.html
Has anyone dealt with them and does this look like something you would
buy? I would like to hear any experience with this vendor get any
recommendations if someone know of a better or cheaper source. Thanks
all.

--

-John
Because it makes things difficult to understand.
Why shouldn't I top post?

[Mort]

I have ordered from reeftopia before and I was pleased with them.

As far as your clean up crew goes, not only should you wait until after the
tank cycles but you really should not add them until AFTER there is
something for them to clean up (ie. eat)

hth

~Mort


"Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> My new 75 gallon setup is almost done cycling. It does still have
> ammonia and will have for a few days because instead of doing one giant
> water change now that the live rock is pretty much cured I am doing
> several smaller (about 3 to 4 gallons) daily for about a week. The
> reasons why are partly due to my RO filter not producing water fast
> enough for all of the change at once and partly do to lazyness.
>
> Anyway, do you all add you crabs and snails and stuff after you have
> completely cycled or do you just pop them in there earlier. I know that
> the crabs can handle a little ammonia so long as the nitrates don't go
> crazy but what about snails?
>
> And finally, this "Total Reef Care Special #2" listed here looks like a
> steller deal, http://www.reeftopia.com/Reeftopiaspecials.html
> Has anyone dealt with them and does this look like something you would
> buy? I would like to hear any experience with this vendor get any
> recommendations if someone know of a better or cheaper source. Thanks
> all.
>
> --
>
> -John
> Because it makes things difficult to understand.
> Why shouldn't I top post?

[John Krempasky]

"Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> My new 75 gallon setup is almost done cycling. It does still have
> ammonia

If it still has ammonia, it's not almost DONE cycling, it's just STARTED
cycling.

Why do you think it's done cycling? How long has it supposedly been
"cycling?"


>and will have for a few days because instead of doing one giant
> water change now that the live rock is pretty much cured I am doing
> several smaller (about 3 to 4 gallons) daily for about a week.

It isn't cured if you've got ammonia.

The water change issue during a cycle of curing live rock is up for much
debate. I just set up a 75 gallon, and did in fact do a 5 gallon water
change twice a week. It took three weeks.

I had no ammonia after the first week, but it took another two weeks after
the first week for nitrites to go zero.

You don't get rid of the ammonia through lots of massive water changes, you
get rid of it by having bacteria grow that turn the ammonia to nitrite. And
THEN bacteria develop that turn the nitrite to nitrate.



> Anyway, do you all add you crabs and snails and stuff after you have
> completely cycled or do you just pop them in there earlier. I know that
> the crabs can handle a little ammonia so long as the nitrates don't go
> crazy but what about snails?

Yes, some animals can survive SOME ammonia, but I wouldn't deliberately
start adding stuff till Ammonia was zero, zip, nada....without water
changes. And till nitrites were very, very, very low.



>
> And finally, this "Total Reef Care Special #2" listed here looks like a
> steller deal, http://www.reeftopia.com/Reeftopiaspecials.html

Hmm. Many people now use NO HERMITS at all due to their destructive nature
(I did get about 9 scarlet hermits, which are less agressive, for my 75)
That's a HUGE number of hermit crabs. And a HUGE number of snails for a 75
gallon. Not sure you'll be able to support that many.

Also not much variety in those packs....different species show preferences
for different types of algae, you've only got 2 species, and 1 kind of
snail, in the reeftopia package.


I got this one from http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/invertpackages/


Package 1, $89, full cost delivered to your door.
30 Astrea Snails
20 Sm. Nassarius Snails
1 Sea Cucumber
1 Queen Conch
1 Peppermint Shrimp
2 Scarlet Hermit Crabs


I added 6 Trochus Snails and 4 Scarlet hermits from the same vendor, and got
10 Cerith Snails and 3 more Scarlet hermits from a local fish store.

The Queen Conch will eventually get enormous however, people recommend
Fighting Conchs, but they weren't included in the package and are hard to
find anywhere at the moment.

Avoid Nerite snails because they like to climb out of the tank, and
Margarita snails because they aren't REALLY "Tropical" and die after a while
in tanks over 75F.

[Christ's Soldiers]

In the land of rec.aquaria.marine.reefs, the word of the Lord came
to John Krempasky and verily he spoke saying:

> "Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
> . 1.4...
>> My new 75 gallon setup is almost done cycling. It does still have
>> ammonia
>
> If it still has ammonia, it's not almost DONE cycling, it's just
> STARTED cycling.
>
> Why do you think it's done cycling? How long has it supposedly
> been "cycling?"

It has been just over a week but about 30 percent of the rock was
well cured from my established 29 gallon that has been up for over
three years. The ammonia went from nuthing, to OMG thats a lot, to
almost gone and at the same time I had a massive diatom (thin brown
algea) layer form. In all of the other four tanks I have had this has
always indicated that the cycle process is nearly complete.

>>and will have for a few days because instead of doing one giant
>> water change now that the live rock is pretty much cured I am
>> doing several smaller (about 3 to 4 gallons) daily for about a
>> week.
>
> It isn't cured if you've got ammonia.

Right, hence my statement, almost cured.

> The water change issue during a cycle of curing live rock is up
> for much debate. I just set up a 75 gallon, and did in fact do a
> 5 gallon water change twice a week. It took three weeks.

I am aware of this debate. I am also aware that since this is a
hobby, and not an exact since, 90% of everything is up for much
debate. To that end I just planning on using the same technique that
I have always used which has never failed me. That being monitor
until an ammonia spike, then to several water changes of about ten
percent until the ammonia is gone. When the ammonia and nitrite hit
less than .3 I add a clean up crew and when they hit 0 I add "real"
livestock. Some of the clean up animals always die but usually a very
small percentage and that way the diatom is all cleaned up and the
sand bed and pod populations are ready for a fish or two by the end
of the first month.

> I had no ammonia after the first week, but it took another two
> weeks after the first week for nitrites to go zero.
>
> You don't get rid of the ammonia through lots of massive water
> changes, you get rid of it by having bacteria grow that turn the
> ammonia to nitrite. And THEN bacteria develop that turn the
> nitrite to nitrate.

That sounds right to me :^)

>> Anyway, do you all add you crabs and snails and stuff after you
>> have completely cycled or do you just pop them in there earlier.
>> I know that the crabs can handle a little ammonia so long as the
>> nitrates don't go crazy but what about snails?
>
> Yes, some animals can survive SOME ammonia, but I wouldn't
> deliberately start adding stuff till Ammonia was zero, zip,
> nada....without water changes. And till nitrites were very, very,
> very low.

Wow, OK. I have always jumped the gun then by your schedual. Is this
how everyone else does it also? I would love to hear some more
opinions here.

>> And finally, this "Total Reef Care Special #2" listed here looks
>> like a steller deal,
>> http://www.reeftopia.com/Reeftopiaspecials.html
>
> Hmm. Many people now use NO HERMITS at all due to their
> destructive nature (I did get about 9 scarlet hermits, which are
> less agressive, for my 75) That's a HUGE number of hermit crabs.
> And a HUGE number of snails for a 75 gallon. Not sure you'll be
> able to support that many.
>
> Also not much variety in those packs....different species show
> preferences for different types of algae, you've only got 2
> species, and 1 kind of snail, in the reeftopia package.

I have seen the recent "no hermit" craze but I like hermits and the
blue legs are so small I have never had any problems. Personally I
think it's more a question of asthetics than how damaging the crabs
are. I should note that I plan on a soft coral and fish tank and few
if any SPS and that would be way down the road.

> I got this one from
> http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/invertpackages/
>
>
> Package 1, $89, full cost delivered to your door.
> 30 Astrea Snails
> 20 Sm. Nassarius Snails
> 1 Sea Cucumber
> 1 Queen Conch
> 1 Peppermint Shrimp
> 2 Scarlet Hermit Crabs
>
>
> I added 6 Trochus Snails and 4 Scarlet hermits from the same
> vendor, and got 10 Cerith Snails and 3 more Scarlet hermits from a
> local fish store.
>
> The Queen Conch will eventually get enormous however, people
> recommend Fighting Conchs, but they weren't included in the
> package and are hard to find anywhere at the moment.
>
> Avoid Nerite snails because they like to climb out of the tank,
> and Margarita snails because they aren't REALLY "Tropical" and die
> after a while in tanks over 75F.

cool thanks for the link and the info. I'll check out that site.


--

-John
Because it makes things difficult to understand.
Why shouldn't I top post?

[Greg]

>Wow, OK. I have always jumped the gun then by your schedual. Is this
>how everyone else does it also? I would love to hear some more
>opinions here.

I've always done as he descibes as well, waiting for the complete cycle
before adding anything. Though your methods does not sound like it's working
out too badly.

Greg.

"Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> In the land of rec.aquaria.marine.reefs, the word of the Lord came
> to John Krempasky and verily he spoke saying:
>
> > "Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
> > . 1.4...
> >> My new 75 gallon setup is almost done cycling. It does still have
> >> ammonia
> >
> > If it still has ammonia, it's not almost DONE cycling, it's just
> > STARTED cycling.
> >
> > Why do you think it's done cycling? How long has it supposedly
> > been "cycling?"
>
> It has been just over a week but about 30 percent of the rock was
> well cured from my established 29 gallon that has been up for over
> three years. The ammonia went from nuthing, to OMG thats a lot, to
> almost gone and at the same time I had a massive diatom (thin brown
> algea) layer form. In all of the other four tanks I have had this has
> always indicated that the cycle process is nearly complete.
>
> >>and will have for a few days because instead of doing one giant
> >> water change now that the live rock is pretty much cured I am
> >> doing several smaller (about 3 to 4 gallons) daily for about a
> >> week.
> >
> > It isn't cured if you've got ammonia.
>
> Right, hence my statement, almost cured.
>
> > The water change issue during a cycle of curing live rock is up
> > for much debate. I just set up a 75 gallon, and did in fact do a
> > 5 gallon water change twice a week. It took three weeks.
>
> I am aware of this debate. I am also aware that since this is a
> hobby, and not an exact since, 90% of everything is up for much
> debate. To that end I just planning on using the same technique that
> I have always used which has never failed me. That being monitor
> until an ammonia spike, then to several water changes of about ten
> percent until the ammonia is gone. When the ammonia and nitrite hit
> less than .3 I add a clean up crew and when they hit 0 I add "real"
> livestock. Some of the clean up animals always die but usually a very
> small percentage and that way the diatom is all cleaned up and the
> sand bed and pod populations are ready for a fish or two by the end
> of the first month.
>
> > I had no ammonia after the first week, but it took another two
> > weeks after the first week for nitrites to go zero.
> >
> > You don't get rid of the ammonia through lots of massive water
> > changes, you get rid of it by having bacteria grow that turn the
> > ammonia to nitrite. And THEN bacteria develop that turn the
> > nitrite to nitrate.
>
> That sounds right to me :^)
>
> >> Anyway, do you all add you crabs and snails and stuff after you
> >> have completely cycled or do you just pop them in there earlier.
> >> I know that the crabs can handle a little ammonia so long as the
> >> nitrates don't go crazy but what about snails?
> >
> > Yes, some animals can survive SOME ammonia, but I wouldn't
> > deliberately start adding stuff till Ammonia was zero, zip,
> > nada....without water changes. And till nitrites were very, very,
> > very low.
>
> Wow, OK. I have always jumped the gun then by your schedual. Is this
> how everyone else does it also? I would love to hear some more
> opinions here.
>
> >> And finally, this "Total Reef Care Special #2" listed here looks
> >> like a steller deal,
> >> http://www.reeftopia.com/Reeftopiaspecials.html
> >
> > Hmm. Many people now use NO HERMITS at all due to their
> > destructive nature (I did get about 9 scarlet hermits, which are
> > less agressive, for my 75) That's a HUGE number of hermit crabs.
> > And a HUGE number of snails for a 75 gallon. Not sure you'll be
> > able to support that many.
> >
> > Also not much variety in those packs....different species show
> > preferences for different types of algae, you've only got 2
> > species, and 1 kind of snail, in the reeftopia package.
>
> I have seen the recent "no hermit" craze but I like hermits and the
> blue legs are so small I have never had any problems. Personally I
> think it's more a question of asthetics than how damaging the crabs
> are. I should note that I plan on a soft coral and fish tank and few
> if any SPS and that would be way down the road.
>
> > I got this one from
> > http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/invertpackages/
> >
> >
> > Package 1, $89, full cost delivered to your door.
> > 30 Astrea Snails
> > 20 Sm. Nassarius Snails
> > 1 Sea Cucumber
> > 1 Queen Conch
> > 1 Peppermint Shrimp
> > 2 Scarlet Hermit Crabs
> >
> >
> > I added 6 Trochus Snails and 4 Scarlet hermits from the same
> > vendor, and got 10 Cerith Snails and 3 more Scarlet hermits from a
> > local fish store.
> >
> > The Queen Conch will eventually get enormous however, people
> > recommend Fighting Conchs, but they weren't included in the
> > package and are hard to find anywhere at the moment.
> >
> > Avoid Nerite snails because they like to climb out of the tank,
> > and Margarita snails because they aren't REALLY "Tropical" and die
> > after a while in tanks over 75F.
>
> cool thanks for the link and the info. I'll check out that site.
>
>
> --
>
> -John
> Because it makes things difficult to understand.
> Why shouldn't I top post?

[CapFusion]

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
> >Wow, OK. I have always jumped the gun then by your schedual. Is this
> >how everyone else does it also? I would love to hear some more
> >opinions here.
>
> I've always done as he descibes as well, waiting for the complete cycle
> before adding anything. Though your methods does not sound like it's
working
> out too badly.
>


I would let everything settle in first. You want everything to seed in /
grow before you trim it down. Janitoral crew will take out pod / algae and
other small stuff before it have a chance to grow.

Some reefer will have janitoral crew in while nitrate is still modest so the
tank will not be over-run by algae. If this was the purpose, then it a good
thing. But if you want to grow pod and other food for your special fish like
a Mandrin, you need your tank full cure and mature first before adding.
Unless you have a separate tank / sump to grow your pod. Having janitoral
crew in early is not problem, they do not really live that long. So it
really depend on what your goal and the purpose you trying to get at.

So why seed it if you going to remove it in the first place. Biosdiversity
is good but what left of the original population and adding new one in is
not too good in my opinion.

CapFusion,...

[Christ's Soldiers]

In the land of rec.aquaria.marine.reefs the word of the Lord came to
CapFusion and verily he spoke saying:

> I would let everything settle in first. You want everything to
> seed in / grow before you trim it down. Janitoral crew will take
> out pod / algae and other small stuff before it have a chance to
> grow.

Good point

> Some reefer will have janitoral crew in while nitrate is still
> modest so the tank will not be over-run by algae. If this was the
> purpose, then it a good thing. But if you want to grow pod and
> other food for your special fish like a Mandrin, you need your
> tank full cure and mature first before adding. Unless you have a
> separate tank / sump to grow your pod. Having janitoral crew in
> early is not problem, they do not really live that long. So it
> really depend on what your goal and the purpose you trying to get
> at.

Yes, you are 100% correct. Algea control was my soul purpose for
using this method and yes, I do have a fuge for pod groth with no
crabs.

> So why seed it if you going to remove it in the first place.
> Biosdiversity is good but what left of the original population and
> adding new one in is not too good in my opinion.

Opinions is all any of us have, and thanks for sharing yours :^)

--

-John

Because it makes things difficult to understand.

Why shouldn't I top post?