Re: Request from people with established DSBs

[Pszemol]

"Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message . 1.4...
> I have a request for all of you who have established deep snad beds. I
> have just setup my new 75 gallon (upgraded from a 3 year old 29 gallon)
> and it is nearly done cycling. I checked everything yesterday and after
> ammonia going off the scale (way off!) I did the water changes and
> Nitrites and ammonia are now almost gone and should be history by this
> weekend after a few more 7 gallon water changes.

Why are you doing water changes during cycling??

> Anyway I am trying to establish a good DSB and have never had one
> before. I have a good population of worms in my 29 but not nearly
> enough quantity or diversity for a sandbed this size. I have ordered
> about two pounds of live sound from reeftopia.com and will also order a
> little from tampabaysal****er since my friend is placing an order with
> them and I can get a reasonable shipping that way.

Have you researched these places? Where their sand comes from?
Does it come from the reef? I would like to seed my sand bed as well...

[Christ's Soldiers]

In the land of rec.aquaria.marine.reefs, the word of the Lord came
to Pszemol and verily he spoke saying:

> "Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
> . 1.4...
>> I have a request for all of you who have established deep snad
>> beds. I have just setup my new 75 gallon (upgraded from a 3 year
>> old 29 gallon) and it is nearly done cycling. I checked
>> everything yesterday and after ammonia going off the scale (way
>> off!) I did the water changes and Nitrites and ammonia are now
>> almost gone and should be history by this weekend after a few
>> more 7 gallon water changes.
>
> Why are you doing water changes during cycling??

Because rock was uncured, the ammonia has spiked and I have done
about three small water changes rather than one large one.

> Have you researched these places? Where their sand comes from?
> Does it come from the reef? I would like to seed my sand bed as
> well...
>

The sand from reeftopia is supposedly from the ocean and they were
rocomended to me on reefcentral. That was the extend of my research
there. As for tampa bay salt, I've seen their sand first hand and
have had litterally hundreds of recommendations for them. The stuff I
saw from them was absolutely crawling with spagheti worms and bristle
worms.

--

-John
Because it makes things difficult to understand.
Why shouldn't I top post?

[Richard Reynolds]

> Have you researched these places? Where their sand comes from?
> Does it come from the reef? I would like to seed my sand bed as well...

TBS sand is cool stuff

its collected where they collect there rocks in FL


--
Richard Reynolds

[CapFusion]

"Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
>
>
> The sand from reeftopia is supposedly from the ocean and they were
> rocomended to me on reefcentral. That was the extend of my research
> there. As for tampa bay salt, I've seen their sand first hand and
> have had litterally hundreds of recommendations for them. The stuff I
> saw from them was absolutely crawling with spagheti worms and bristle
> worms.
>

Try from a local Reef club near you and see if you can trade some. This way
will be easier and less die-off when compare to shipping with USPS priority
mail. And cheaper.

CapFusion,...

[Greg]

I think what Pszemol is getting at is that the ammonia drives the bacteria
your trying to grow during the cycling phase. You don't want to remove it
you want to "cycle" it (from ammonia->nitrite->nitrate).

I have a sand bed I started in 1998 which I have transfered from tank to
tank but is very good. I see a plethora of creatures in it, including baby
stars. I continuely see nitrogen/oxygen being released into my tank from the
bed (showing the final phase from nitrate->nitrogen/oxygen) and when I had
my 150 up I went over a year without a water change.

Anyway I seeded my bed from a package I got from these guys:

http://garf.org/

http://www.garf.org/GRUNGEPLUS1/SHOW/index.html

And yes, I have micro stars and tons of other life in there :)

Greg

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> > I have a request for all of you who have established deep snad beds. I
> > have just setup my new 75 gallon (upgraded from a 3 year old 29 gallon)
> > and it is nearly done cycling. I checked everything yesterday and after
> > ammonia going off the scale (way off!) I did the water changes and
> > Nitrites and ammonia are now almost gone and should be history by this
> > weekend after a few more 7 gallon water changes.
>
> Why are you doing water changes during cycling??
>
> > Anyway I am trying to establish a good DSB and have never had one
> > before. I have a good population of worms in my 29 but not nearly
> > enough quantity or diversity for a sandbed this size. I have ordered
> > about two pounds of live sound from reeftopia.com and will also order a
> > little from tampabaysal****er since my friend is placing an order with
> > them and I can get a reasonable shipping that way.
>
> Have you researched these places? Where their sand comes from?
> Does it come from the reef? I would like to seed my sand bed as well...

[Pszemol]

"Greg" > wrote in message ...
> And yes, I have micro stars and tons of other life in there :)

What "micro stars" you are refering to? Do they look like these:
http://www.polbox.com/p/pszemol/ministars.html
Or rather more like mini brittle stars, with small bodies and long arms?

[Christ's Soldiers]

In the land of rec.aquaria.marine.reefs the word of the Lord came to
Pszemol and verily he spoke saying:

> http://www.polbox.com/p/pszemol/ministars.html

I have thes by the thousands, and if this is where your going, they
have never harmed any of my polyps except they did "clean the wound"
once after my butterfly had a good much on my purple polyps. I think
they actually sped the healing process. That particular polyp started
the size of a quarter and is now football sized! I almost wish thed
DID eat it;^P

--

-John

Because it makes things difficult to understand.

Why shouldn't I top post?

[Pszemol]

"Christ's Soldiers" > wrote in message . 97.132...
> In the land of rec.aquaria.marine.reefs the word of the Lord came to
> Pszemol and verily he spoke saying:
>
> > http://www.polbox.com/p/pszemol/ministars.html
>
> I have thes by the thousands,

I see. I have many of these too.

> and if this is where your going, they
> have never harmed any of my polyps except they did "clean the wound"
> once after my butterfly had a good much on my purple polyps. I think
> they actually sped the healing process. That particular polyp started
> the size of a quarter and is now football sized! I almost wish thed
> DID eat it;^P

No... I wish you had the other kind...
I had once hundreds of mini britle stars and now they are
all gone, replaced by the stubby ones - I am looking for
somebody who could share brittle ones with me, maybe
exchanging for something I have...

[Rod]

There is a store west of Chicago that sells the mini brittle stars individually
( along with terribellied/speghetti worms, bristle worms etc.) or they will
sell live sand that is loaded with all kinds of critters. ;) Its way out on rt
47 though
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[Greg]

Nope, they would be mini brittle stars.

like this:

http://www.garf.org/GRUNGEPLUS1/SHOW/index.html

Greg

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Greg" > wrote in message
...
> > And yes, I have micro stars and tons of other life in there :)
>
> What "micro stars" you are refering to? Do they look like these:
> http://www.polbox.com/p/pszemol/ministars.html
> Or rather more like mini brittle stars, with small bodies and long arms?

[david]

is there a chance of getting something in the sand that you don't want....
white spot
im not setting up a quarantine tank for sand that would be silly :O)
David

[CapFusion]

I do not see as silly if anyone is very cautious about it. It the same as
quarantine a fish etc before placing in the community. It just look and
sound strange to do it with sand or rock but you never know what you will be
getting. Just be aware that the sand you suppose to be getting will have ton
of bacteria and critters.

CapFusion,...


"david" > wrote in message
...
> is there a chance of getting something in the sand that you don't want....
> white spot
> im not setting up a quarantine tank for sand that would be silly :O)
> David
>
>

[Pszemol]

"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message ...
> I do not see as silly if anyone is very cautious about it. It the same as
> quarantine a fish etc before placing in the community. It just look and
> sound strange to do it with sand or rock but you never know what you will
> be getting.

The purpose for the quarantine tank is to put the new fish and
observe it for symptom of disease before putting it to the display tank.
How long th efish should stay in the quarantine after the purchase?
I am not sure, and everybody here probably has a different opinion...

But what would be the purpose of quarantining of live sand?
And how can you tell if it is healthy or not? I have no idea...
And without any possible symptoms to observe, just putting it
into the tank for no good reason will just increase the die off.

Maybe we can all discuss here how do each of us imagine
live sand/live rock quarantine...

> Just be aware that the sand you suppose to be getting will have
> ton of bacteria and critters.

Less what died already in the shipping... unfortunatelly.

[Ross Bagley]

"Pszemol" > writes:

> "CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message ...
> > I do not see as silly if anyone is very cautious about it. It the same as
> > quarantine a fish etc before placing in the community. It just look and
> > sound strange to do it with sand or rock but you never know what you will
> > be getting.
>
> The purpose for the quarantine tank is to put the new fish and
> observe it for symptom of disease before putting it to the display tank.
> How long th efish should stay in the quarantine after the purchase?
> I am not sure, and everybody here probably has a different opinion...

Most of the time, salt water quarantine protocols say to isolate for 4
weeks, 30 days, or one month without any sign of disease or distress.
4 weeks is more common for hobbiests (who have the most time to
dedicate on weekends and tend to schedule things in weeks) and 30
days/one month is more common for aquariums with full time staff.

> But what would be the purpose of quarantining of live sand?
> And how can you tell if it is healthy or not? I have no idea...

I quarantine more than anyone else I know and even I don't quarantine
live sand. Then again, after the first dose of live sand during
initial tank setup, I have traded sand with friend's established
tanks, after I've inspected their corals and other inverts for signs
of health and lack of parasites, so maybe I am quarantining my live
sand (by using other people's tanks).

> And without any possible symptoms to observe, just putting it
> into the tank for no good reason will just increase the die off.
>
> Maybe we can all discuss here how do each of us imagine
> live sand/live rock quarantine...

Live rock is a different matter. I have quarantined live rock, on the
two occasions that I added some after the tank was established. What
I'm looking for there are gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, invert
parasites, etc. I keep a millepora frag and an acropora frag in the
invert quarantine tank and I look closely for parasites on them
during the quarantine period.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[david]

> Maybe we can all discuss here how do each of us imagine
> live sand/live rock quarantine...
>
> Less what died already in the shipping... unfortunatelly.
that was my point if you have a disease in your tank and swap sand.what
crossed my mind was a comment from Marc about sending sand to a guy who was
collecting sand from every body mixing it up and sending it back for
diversity of fauna. The idear sounds great I just wanted to know if there
were problems.

David

[david]

> I quarantine more than anyone else I know and even I don't quarantine
> live sand. Then again, after the first dose of live sand during
> initial tank setup, I have traded sand with friend's established
> tanks, after I've inspected their corals and other inverts for signs
> of health and lack of parasites, so maybe I am quarantining my live
> sand (by using other people's tanks).
>
Hi Ross
understand about live rock ( crabs ! ) You look at other peoples tank for
your sand trades which as you say "quarantine in their tank". So if I sent
you some sand would you put it in your main display tank, probably not if I
sent you a mixture of sand from ten unknown people what is the likely hood
of actually getting thing unwanted !

David

[Pszemol]

"david" > wrote in message ...
> that was my point if you have a disease in your tank and swap sand.what
> crossed my mind was a comment from Marc about sending sand to a guy who was
> collecting sand from every body mixing it up and sending it back for
> diversity of fauna. The idear sounds great I just wanted to know if there
> were problems.

It could work if we all know people sending their sand... but we don't.
I am not going to participate.

[Ross Bagley]

"david" > writes:

> understand about live rock ( crabs ! ) You look at other peoples tank for
> your sand trades which as you say "quarantine in their tank". So if I sent
> you some sand would you put it in your main display tank,

Probably not.

> probably not if I sent you a mixture of sand from ten unknown people
> what is the likely hood of actually getting thing unwanted !

Probably pretty darned small, but I don't really know. For me, that's
a problem. But I'm a paranoid wierdo when it comes to putting stuff
in my tank, so you'll need to make up your own mind.

Another thought occured to me, which is that I am very lucky to live
in and among a huge community of reefkeepers and am able to pick and
choose exactly what goes in my tank with lots of time to make
decisions.

For someone living far from the next reefkeeper, they simply may not
have the options I have and may have to take more risks in order to
build a good habitat. And what if that person is raising the risk of
introduction of something unwelcome from .5% to 1%? Should that
stop you from trying to build a more healthy tank?

Lots of circumstances will have an impact on this decision for you.
Consider them all and make up your mind based on what you know at
the time. If something bad happens, don't beat yourself up about it,
learn from it and move on.

Regards,
Ross

-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller

[CapFusion]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
> > I do not see as silly if anyone is very cautious about it. It the same
as
> > quarantine a fish etc before placing in the community. It just look and
> > sound strange to do it with sand or rock but you never know what you
will
> > be getting.
>
> The purpose for the quarantine tank is to put the new fish and
> observe it for symptom of disease before putting it to the display tank.
> How long th efish should stay in the quarantine after the purchase?
> I am not sure, and everybody here probably has a different opinion...
>
> But what would be the purpose of quarantining of live sand?
> And how can you tell if it is healthy or not? I have no idea...
> And without any possible symptoms to observe, just putting it
> into the tank for no good reason will just increase the die off.
>
> Maybe we can all discuss here how do each of us imagine
> live sand/live rock quarantine...
>
> > Just be aware that the sand you suppose to be getting will have
> > ton of bacteria and critters.
>
> Less what died already in the shipping... unfortunatelly.

The purpose of QT / HT is to check what you maybe introducing to your main
tank. Check for any unwant stuff or any chemistry that may alter your main
tank. This is just a precautional mesaure. If you feel it unnecessary, then
by all mean, put it in your main tank and hope for the better that it does
not alter or cause problem to your main tank.

If everything were starting all at once, then simply put everything in and
cure / cycle the whole thing.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Ross Bagley" > wrote in message
...
>
> Live rock is a different matter. I have quarantined live rock, on the
> two occasions that I added some after the tank was established. What
> I'm looking for there are gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, invert
> parasites, etc. I keep a millepora frag and an acropora frag in the
> invert quarantine tank and I look closely for parasites on them
> during the quarantine period.
>
This one of MANY reason why QT/HT is a good habit to do.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"david" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Ross
> understand about live rock ( crabs ! ) You look at other peoples tank for
> your sand trades which as you say "quarantine in their tank". So if I sent
> you some sand would you put it in your main display tank, probably not if
I
> sent you a mixture of sand from ten unknown people what is the likely hood
> of actually getting thing unwanted !
>
> David
>
The chance maybe slim but would you risk your prize tank, unless you really
know for certain. Better safe then sorry later. You are the one in charge of
your tank [sorta of acting as "God"], it up to you on how you take care of
your tank and introduce new thing to your tank. You action will affect your
tank.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"david" > wrote in message
...
> that was my point if you have a disease in your tank and swap sand.what
> crossed my mind was a comment from Marc about sending sand to a guy who
was
> collecting sand from every body mixing it up and sending it back for
> diversity of fauna. The idear sounds great I just wanted to know if there
> were problems.
>
> David
>
Collecting sand for diversity is great but still take precautional steps.
You never know what you will be getting, even from Marc. I find and discover
new critter that I did not know I have even after a year.

CapFusion,...

[Marc Levenson]

I sent him 2 cups of sand last week. That was 2 lbs 2.3 oz out of a 4" DSB in
my 55g. If I get back 2lbs of my 200lbs or more, I'm really not worried.

However, I will look through the sand very carefully before I add it to my tank,
and I will also be honest and post my results here, no matter what occurs. My
goal is to seed my DSB with new micro infauna, because we do need to do that
every 6 months or so. I've not added any new sand to my tank in over 6 months,
so it is time.

About 30 people participated, and I decided not to wait and let the stuff stew
like some requested. Just mix it up, let it sit over the weekend, and get it
back to me. I don't know James that well and don't know his practices nor his
methods. So I don't want to let a lot of time pass on this one.

Marc


david wrote:

> > Maybe we can all discuss here how do each of us imagine
> > live sand/live rock quarantine...
> >
> > Less what died already in the shipping... unfortunatelly.
> that was my point if you have a disease in your tank and swap sand.what
> crossed my mind was a comment from Marc about sending sand to a guy who was
> collecting sand from every body mixing it up and sending it back for
> diversity of fauna. The idear sounds great I just wanted to know if there
> were problems.
>
> David

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[david]

> About 30 people participated, and I decided not to wait and let the stuff
stew
> like some requested. Just mix it up, let it sit over the weekend, and get
it
> back to me. I don't know James that well and don't know his practices nor
his
> methods. So I don't want to let a lot of time pass on this one.
>
thought we had upset you with no posts for the last few days
I was trying to evaulate the risk of adding unkown sand to a tank.
copper springs to mind today :0)

David !

[Marc Levenson]

I'll be watching for pennies. :)

I've been swamped over here with a million things to do. Work has been
relentless, spring hit hard and yard work was a priority, and 4 sumps are being
built. I've got people PMing me on Reef Central asking me why I've not replied
to my email. LOL

I really don't think there is a huge risk with the sand sample, but maybe I like
living on the edge. After all, I still use my email address here in the
newsgroup. :p

Marc


david wrote:

> thought we had upset you with no posts for the last few days
> I was trying to evaulate the risk of adding unkown sand to a tank.
> copper springs to mind today :0)
>
> David !

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com