Setup timetable

[tech27]

I'm going to set up a reef tank with LR, corals and fish. These are the
steps I think are correct, but I would appreciate some guidance and tips.

Basics- up to 100 gal tank, refugium, protein skimmer, live rock, live sand,
lighting, RO water system, pumps, etc.

1-Set up all mechanical systems
2-Install live rock and sand bed topped with live sand (or should I use all
live sand?)
2a-Live rock and live sand in refugium too, along with macro algae.
3-Fill with RO water.
4-Allow to cycle, check water quality, etc.
5-Once stabilized slowly add corals and fish

I estimate the time for 1-4 to be at least 3 months. Livestock slowly over
next 6 months or as indicated.

Thanks





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[Greg]

Sounds about right. Though I gennerally would put the "live" sand on the
bottom and top it off with crushed coral. The most beneficial bacteria from
the live sand (as I understand it from Jung and other sources) is in the
"dead air" section deep in the bed where there is little or no oxygen.

BTW, IMO you don't need lights during cycling. Unless of course you want to
amplify the algae bloom :) Wasn't sure if you had planned on running the
lights or not.

Greg

"tech27" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to set up a reef tank with LR, corals and fish. These are the
> steps I think are correct, but I would appreciate some guidance and tips.
>
> Basics- up to 100 gal tank, refugium, protein skimmer, live rock, live
sand,
> lighting, RO water system, pumps, etc.
>
> 1-Set up all mechanical systems
> 2-Install live rock and sand bed topped with live sand (or should I use
all
> live sand?)
> 2a-Live rock and live sand in refugium too, along with macro algae.
> 3-Fill with RO water.
> 4-Allow to cycle, check water quality, etc.
> 5-Once stabilized slowly add corals and fish
>
> I estimate the time for 1-4 to be at least 3 months. Livestock slowly over
> next 6 months or as indicated.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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>
>

[John Krempasky]

Well, you'll want to put in your snails, conchs, etc. for cleanup after your
cycle, which should be about one month in. Otherwise waiting 3+ months for
corals and fish to be added gradually thereafter is great.

I just cycled a tank with new live rock with some limited light (2 of my 4
T5 fluorescents on 6 hours a day) and my limited algae growth was
annihilated within days when I put my snails in.

You DEFINITELY don't need all live sand.

Most of it can be so called "Southdown" sand from Home Depot (easier to get
on the East Coast)...not called Southdown anymore.

"tech27" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to set up a reef tank with LR, corals and fish. These are the
> steps I think are correct, but I would appreciate some guidance and tips.
>
> Basics- up to 100 gal tank, refugium, protein skimmer, live rock, live
sand,
> lighting, RO water system, pumps, etc.
>
> 1-Set up all mechanical systems
> 2-Install live rock and sand bed topped with live sand (or should I use
all
> live sand?)
> 2a-Live rock and live sand in refugium too, along with macro algae.
> 3-Fill with RO water.
> 4-Allow to cycle, check water quality, etc.
> 5-Once stabilized slowly add corals and fish
>
> I estimate the time for 1-4 to be at least 3 months. Livestock slowly over
> next 6 months or as indicated.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.644 / Virus Database: 412 - Release Date: 3/26/2004
>
>

[tech27]

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds about right. Though I gennerally would put the "live" sand on the
> bottom and top it off with crushed coral. The most beneficial bacteria
from
> the live sand (as I understand it from Jung and other sources) is in the
> "dead air" section deep in the bed where there is little or no oxygen.

For the anerobic bacteria yes. But from what I've read live sand action also
happens at the top and it is not necessary to have is deep or all at the
bottom. Maybe I should just mix it with the crushed coral and not layer it?
I suppose that this way I'm not constricting it or possibly "suffocating" it
under the coral.
>
> BTW, IMO you don't need lights during cycling. Unless of course you want
to
> amplify the algae bloom :) Wasn't sure if you had planned on running the
> lights or not.

I just ment the it was all going to be set up I don't think I need it during
cycling, but I wouldn't mind having it set up and running from the begining
so I can monitor temparature before I introduce any live things.
>

Thanks.

> Greg
>
> "tech27" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm going to set up a reef tank with LR, corals and fish. These are the
> > steps I think are correct, but I would appreciate some guidance and
tips.
> >
> > Basics- up to 100 gal tank, refugium, protein skimmer, live rock, live
> sand,
> > lighting, RO water system, pumps, etc.
> >
> > 1-Set up all mechanical systems
> > 2-Install live rock and sand bed topped with live sand (or should I use
> all
> > live sand?)
> > 2a-Live rock and live sand in refugium too, along with macro algae.
> > 3-Fill with RO water.
> > 4-Allow to cycle, check water quality, etc.
> > 5-Once stabilized slowly add corals and fish
> >
> > I estimate the time for 1-4 to be at least 3 months. Livestock slowly
over
> > next 6 months or as indicated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.644 / Virus Database: 412 - Release Date: 3/26/2004
> >
> >
>
>


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[CapFusion]

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds about right. Though I gennerally would put the "live" sand on the
> bottom and top it off with crushed coral. The most beneficial bacteria
from
> the live sand (as I understand it from Jung and other sources) is in the
> "dead air" section deep in the bed where there is little or no oxygen.
>
> BTW, IMO you don't need lights during cycling. Unless of course you want
to
> amplify the algae bloom :) Wasn't sure if you had planned on running the
> lights or not.

I would use all LS [small sugar size] and dream about putting crush coral on
someone else tank [maybe Greg's tank] instead. Remember, crush coral will
trap debris and other stuff.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"tech27" > wrote in message
...
>
> For the anerobic bacteria yes. But from what I've read live sand action
also
> happens at the top and it is not necessary to have is deep or all at the
> bottom. Maybe I should just mix it with the crushed coral and not layer
it?
> I suppose that this way I'm not constricting it or possibly "suffocating"
it
> under the coral.
>
> I just ment the it was all going to be set up I don't think I need it
during
> cycling, but I wouldn't mind having it set up and running from the
begining
> so I can monitor temparature before I introduce any live things.
>

On the surface area of the sand bed will have bacteria and also on any other
area like LR / glass / pump etc and from microalalgae. But the most
efficient bacteria is under the sand bed [like 3" or more]. The breakdown of
nutrient to nitrigen gass is taking place in deep bed where low oxygen
concentration of the sand bed. The more bacteria growth rate, cause the
nitrogen gas release from the sand bed.

CapFusion,...

[Ken N]

My 2 cents : No crushed coral, just a place for detris to accumulate.Limited
lighting during cycle, actinic would be ok, but limited use of daylight type
light. Live sand on top of top of sb would be best and most economical.
Would wait for the macro algae until cycle completes. Might want RO/DI
instead of just RO.

Ken N.

"John Krempasky" > wrote in message
...
> Well, you'll want to put in your snails, conchs, etc. for cleanup after
your
> cycle, which should be about one month in. Otherwise waiting 3+ months for
> corals and fish to be added gradually thereafter is great.
>
> I just cycled a tank with new live rock with some limited light (2 of my 4
> T5 fluorescents on 6 hours a day) and my limited algae growth was
> annihilated within days when I put my snails in.
>
> You DEFINITELY don't need all live sand.
>
> Most of it can be so called "Southdown" sand from Home Depot (easier to
get
> on the East Coast)...not called Southdown anymore.
>
> "tech27" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm going to set up a reef tank with LR, corals and fish. These are the
> > steps I think are correct, but I would appreciate some guidance and
tips.
> >
> > Basics- up to 100 gal tank, refugium, protein skimmer, live rock, live
> sand,
> > lighting, RO water system, pumps, etc.
> >
> > 1-Set up all mechanical systems
> > 2-Install live rock and sand bed topped with live sand (or should I use
> all
> > live sand?)
> > 2a-Live rock and live sand in refugium too, along with macro algae.
> > 3-Fill with RO water.
> > 4-Allow to cycle, check water quality, etc.
> > 5-Once stabilized slowly add corals and fish
> >
> > I estimate the time for 1-4 to be at least 3 months. Livestock slowly
over
> > next 6 months or as indicated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.644 / Virus Database: 412 - Release Date: 3/26/2004
> >
> >
>
>

[Greg]

> I would use all LS [small sugar size] and dream about putting crush coral
on
> someone else tank [maybe Greg's tank] instead. Remember, crush coral will
> trap debris and other stuff.

Just for the record, I've had my sand bed for 6 years (though it has moved
into a different tank twice), made with a mix of garf grunge
(http://www.garf.org) and crushed
coral/aragonite. It has always done very well for me. I continuely see
nitrogen and
oxygen released from the tank I have no problems with debrise (of course I
use hermits which keep everything nice a clean, which I'm starting to
determine is not desired by most in this group). In my 150g I had gone over
a year without a water change (due to pure laziness, though I am on a quest
to get a fully self reliant ecosytem) and no high levels of nitrate (showing
again the quality of the sand bed). I have not read up alot since the 90's -
early 2000s so I am a bit out of sink and I apoligize if the genreal view
point has changed.

I do appriciate hearing the newer points of view though. It is interesting
how things are changing.

BTW, do you have critters in your sand (i.e. micro starfish)?
I would think they would have a hard time moving around in the sand if it
was that fine.

Greg

"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Greg" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Sounds about right. Though I gennerally would put the "live" sand on the
> > bottom and top it off with crushed coral. The most beneficial bacteria
> from
> > the live sand (as I understand it from Jung and other sources) is in the
> > "dead air" section deep in the bed where there is little or no oxygen.
> >
> > BTW, IMO you don't need lights during cycling. Unless of course you want
> to
> > amplify the algae bloom :) Wasn't sure if you had planned on running the
> > lights or not.
>
> I would use all LS [small sugar size] and dream about putting crush coral
on
> someone else tank [maybe Greg's tank] instead. Remember, crush coral will
> trap debris and other stuff.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

[Greg]

Here is slide show of garf's latest grunge (my sand bed does look alot like
this). At any giving time you can spot at least a half of a dozen micro
stars in the front glass portion of the bed (along with different types of
worms and many other goodies).

http://www.garf.org/GRUNGEPLUS1/SHOW/index.html

Greg

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
> > I would use all LS [small sugar size] and dream about putting crush
coral
> on
> > someone else tank [maybe Greg's tank] instead. Remember, crush coral
will
> > trap debris and other stuff.
>
> Just for the record, I've had my sand bed for 6 years (though it has moved
> into a different tank twice), made with a mix of garf grunge
> (http://www.garf.org) and crushed
> coral/aragonite. It has always done very well for me. I continuely see
> nitrogen and
> oxygen released from the tank I have no problems with debrise (of course I
> use hermits which keep everything nice a clean, which I'm starting to
> determine is not desired by most in this group). In my 150g I had gone
over
> a year without a water change (due to pure laziness, though I am on a
quest
> to get a fully self reliant ecosytem) and no high levels of nitrate
(showing
> again the quality of the sand bed). I have not read up alot since the
90's -
> early 2000s so I am a bit out of sink and I apoligize if the genreal view
> point has changed.
>
> I do appriciate hearing the newer points of view though. It is interesting
> how things are changing.
>
> BTW, do you have critters in your sand (i.e. micro starfish)?
> I would think they would have a hard time moving around in the sand if it
> was that fine.
>
> Greg
>
> "CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Greg" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Sounds about right. Though I gennerally would put the "live" sand on
the
> > > bottom and top it off with crushed coral. The most beneficial bacteria
> > from
> > > the live sand (as I understand it from Jung and other sources) is in
the
> > > "dead air" section deep in the bed where there is little or no oxygen.
> > >
> > > BTW, IMO you don't need lights during cycling. Unless of course you
want
> > to
> > > amplify the algae bloom :) Wasn't sure if you had planned on running
the
> > > lights or not.
> >
> > I would use all LS [small sugar size] and dream about putting crush
coral
> on
> > someone else tank [maybe Greg's tank] instead. Remember, crush coral
will
> > trap debris and other stuff.
> >
> > CapFusion,...
> >
> >
>
>

[tech27]

Thanks for all the good info. If I do nix the crushed coral, should I go
with the expensive all live sand, or can I mix it with something else? If
so, what proportions of ls to other sand would be appropriate.

Thanks again


"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
>
> "tech27" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > For the anerobic bacteria yes. But from what I've read live sand action
> also
> > happens at the top and it is not necessary to have is deep or all at the
> > bottom. Maybe I should just mix it with the crushed coral and not layer
> it?
> > I suppose that this way I'm not constricting it or possibly
"suffocating"
> it
> > under the coral.
> >
> > I just ment the it was all going to be set up I don't think I need it
> during
> > cycling, but I wouldn't mind having it set up and running from the
> begining
> > so I can monitor temparature before I introduce any live things.
> >
>
> On the surface area of the sand bed will have bacteria and also on any
other
> area like LR / glass / pump etc and from microalalgae. But the most
> efficient bacteria is under the sand bed [like 3" or more]. The breakdown
of
> nutrient to nitrigen gass is taking place in deep bed where low oxygen
> concentration of the sand bed. The more bacteria growth rate, cause the
> nitrogen gas release from the sand bed.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>


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[CapFusion]

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> BTW, do you have critters in your sand (i.e. micro starfish)?
> I would think they would have a hard time moving around in the sand if it
> was that fine.
>
Actually, finer sand help any star to burrow under the sand better then the
smaller gravel kind. Finer sand also help by passing through their digestive
system [filtering] while cleaning or polishing the sand. Finer sand is more
uniform when compare to small gravel or crush coral. It also easier to
navigate for those critter that live just under the sand surface unlike
crush coral / gravel [not just star but also worm and burrowing fish]. Finer
sand does not trap debris and easier access for those filtering worm / star
etc.


CapFusion,...

[Greg]

> Finer sand also help by passing through their digestive
> system [filtering] while cleaning or polishing the sand.

I'm not refering to borrowing stars or any stars that are large enough to
"consume" the sand. These are very very tiny brittle stars that eat up
detrius. They slip and crawl their way though the coarse aragonite.

> It also easier to
> navigate for those critter that live just under the sand surface unlike
> crush coral / gravel [not just star but also worm and burrowing fish].
> Finer sand does not trap debris and easier access for those filtering worm
/ star
> etc.

I have a number of small feather dusters that don't seem to have any problem
either. In fact when I moved from my 150g to my 54g corner. I only used only
a section of my sand (due to aptasia which are finally all gone thank god!)
and topped with new crushed aragonite. I thought I might have killed the
small feather dusters since they were now buried under another inch or two
of new aragonite. But low and behold a number of them popped up within the
week. As far as burrowing fish (if you mean like sand sifting fish such as a
banded goby?) I had a couple of those and they had no problems with the
aragonite. I ended up getting rid of them when I found out they were sifting
sand to eat the biolife and not the detrius. :(

The rest seems interesting, but I think I'll still stick with my crushed
aragonite. It stays clean, looks good, has a ton of diversified life and
it's been working for 6 years.

"if it ain't broke don't fix it" I always say :)

Thanks for the input though.

Greg

"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Greg" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > BTW, do you have critters in your sand (i.e. micro starfish)?
> > I would think they would have a hard time moving around in the sand if
it
> > was that fine.
> >
> Actually, finer sand help any star to burrow under the sand better then
the
> smaller gravel kind. Finer sand also help by passing through their
digestive
> system [filtering] while cleaning or polishing the sand. Finer sand is
more
> uniform when compare to small gravel or crush coral. It also easier to
> navigate for those critter that live just under the sand surface unlike
> crush coral / gravel [not just star but also worm and burrowing fish].
Finer
> sand does not trap debris and easier access for those filtering worm /
star
> etc.
>
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

[CapFusion]

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
> > Finer sand also help by passing through their digestive
> > system [filtering] while cleaning or polishing the sand.
>
> I'm not refering to borrowing stars or any stars that are large enough to
> "consume" the sand. These are very very tiny brittle stars that eat up
> detrius. They slip and crawl their way though the coarse aragonite.
>
> > It also easier to
> > navigate for those critter that live just under the sand surface unlike
> > crush coral / gravel [not just star but also worm and burrowing fish].
> > Finer sand does not trap debris and easier access for those filtering
worm
> / star
> > etc.
>
> I have a number of small feather dusters that don't seem to have any
problem
> either. In fact when I moved from my 150g to my 54g corner. I only used
only
> a section of my sand (due to aptasia which are finally all gone thank
god!)
> and topped with new crushed aragonite. I thought I might have killed the
> small feather dusters since they were now buried under another inch or two
> of new aragonite. But low and behold a number of them popped up within the
> week. As far as burrowing fish (if you mean like sand sifting fish such as
a
> banded goby?) I had a couple of those and they had no problems with the
> aragonite. I ended up getting rid of them when I found out they were
sifting
> sand to eat the biolife and not the detrius. :(
>
> The rest seems interesting, but I think I'll still stick with my crushed
> aragonite. It stays clean, looks good, has a ton of diversified life and
> it's been working for 6 years.
>
> "if it ain't broke don't fix it" I always say :)
>
> Thanks for the input though.
>
As long it work for you and it is not broken, then no need to fix it or
changes.
But as for my tank, I preferred fine aragonite kind, not crush or coarse. I
just like my sand to be clean or polish while it being pass-through their
digustive system.

CapFusion,...

[Rod]

The bagged live sand is just wet sand with some bacteria in it ( NO CRITTERS)
Save your money.. The bagged dead sugar arragonite (southdown, aragamax, etc.)
will become just as "alive" as the bagged live sand. I feel the bagged live
sand has nearly ruined the term "live sand" and is the problem that some folks
are having with DSB. They read that they need live sand, they go into a crappy
LFS or a petco, and see bagged live sand, and they buy some,thinking thatthat
is all they need. They never seed their sand bed with true live sand with
critters and worms tthat make the bed function proplerly .

>
>Thanks for all the good info. If I do nix the crushed coral, should I go
>with the expensive all live sand, or can I mix it with something else? If
>so, what proportions of ls to other sand would be appropriate.
>
>Thanks again
>
>
>"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
>>
>> "tech27" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > For the anerobic bacteria yes. But from what I've read live sand action
>> also
>> > happens at the top and it is not necessary to have is deep or all at the
>> > bottom. Maybe I should just mix it with the crushed coral and not layer
>> it?
>> > I suppose that this way I'm not constricting it or possibly
>"suffocating"
>> it
>> > under the coral.
>> >
>> > I just ment the it was all going to be set up I don't think I need it
>> during
>> > cycling, but I wouldn't mind having it set up and running from the
>> begining
>> > so I can monitor temparature before I introduce any live things.
>> >
>>
>> On the surface area of the sand bed will have bacteria and also on any
>other
>> area like LR / glass / pump etc and from microalalgae. But the most
>> efficient bacteria is under the sand bed [like 3" or more]. The breakdown
>of
>> nutrient to nitrigen gass is taking place in deep bed where low oxygen
>> concentration of the sand bed. The more bacteria growth rate, cause the
>> nitrogen gas release from the sand bed.
>>
>> CapFusion,...
>>
>>
>
>
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.644 / Virus Database: 412 - Release Date: 3/26/2004
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[tech27]

Thanks for the tip. I have seen LS that specifically mentions same day
shipping and that it is full of worms, starfish, etc. and I will be buying
this, not some bagged stuff off the shelf.

"Rod" > wrote in message
...
> The bagged live sand is just wet sand with some bacteria in it ( NO
CRITTERS)
> Save your money.. The bagged dead sugar arragonite (southdown, aragamax,
etc.)
> will become just as "alive" as the bagged live sand. I feel the bagged
live
> sand has nearly ruined the term "live sand" and is the problem that some
folks
> are having with DSB. They read that they need live sand, they go into a
crappy
> LFS or a petco, and see bagged live sand, and they buy some,thinking
thatthat
> is all they need. They never seed their sand bed with true live sand with
> critters and worms tthat make the bed function proplerly .
>
> >
> >Thanks for all the good info. If I do nix the crushed coral, should I go
> >with the expensive all live sand, or can I mix it with something else? If
> >so, what proportions of ls to other sand would be appropriate.
> >
> >Thanks again
> >
> >
> >"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "tech27" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > For the anerobic bacteria yes. But from what I've read live sand
action
> >> also
> >> > happens at the top and it is not necessary to have is deep or all at
the
> >> > bottom. Maybe I should just mix it with the crushed coral and not
layer
> >> it?
> >> > I suppose that this way I'm not constricting it or possibly
> >"suffocating"
> >> it
> >> > under the coral.
> >> >
> >> > I just ment the it was all going to be set up I don't think I need it
> >> during
> >> > cycling, but I wouldn't mind having it set up and running from the
> >> begining
> >> > so I can monitor temparature before I introduce any live things.
> >> >
> >>
> >> On the surface area of the sand bed will have bacteria and also on any
> >other
> >> area like LR / glass / pump etc and from microalalgae. But the most
> >> efficient bacteria is under the sand bed [like 3" or more]. The
breakdown
> >of
> >> nutrient to nitrigen gass is taking place in deep bed where low oxygen
> >> concentration of the sand bed. The more bacteria growth rate, cause the
> >> nitrogen gas release from the sand bed.
> >>
> >> CapFusion,...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.644 / Virus Database: 412 - Release Date: 3/26/2004
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Rod Buehler
> www.asplashoflife.com


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