Switching substrate on the fly.

[Phil O'Connor]

Hi,

I'm wanting to change my crushed coral substrate to a DSB as one step in
a slow migration of my FOWLR to a reef. (46 gal bowfront)

So my question is, will taking out the crushed coral destroy my
biological filter and I have to recycle the tank? I have an Emperor 400
with biowheels as my primary biofilter. So as long as thats unharmed,
can I put my fish back in as soon as the sand has settled and water
cleared? (I have some liverock, but not enough for filter. prob 15lbs)

and whats the best thing to do to with my biowheels to save the bacteria
culture while they're on downtime during the switch? Leave them in the
filter (air, no water), or submerge them in tank water (water, no air)?

its gonna be a big enough headache getting my tang outta that tank for
the change. I'm hoping she can just hang out in a bucket during the
change. What's the total predicted time one might expect such a switch
to take? In other words, will the fish need to be housed elsewhere for
a few hours, overnight, or several days/weeks?

TIA
Phil

[Greg]

Wow, I guess I'm really out of touch with things.

Why is it you feel you need to remove the crushed coral? Couldn't you
"activate" the current bed with 5-10 lbs of live sand from any number of
places (for example http://www.garf.org).

If you dislike the crushed coral because of the looks couldn't put a fine
sand on top of it? Or, would the find sand then eventually fall through to
the bottom? I suppose that might happen.

I'm just feeling a little lost. I started my reef in 1998 with a live sand
bed (crushed aragonite and crushed florida coral if I remember correctly)
seeded it with some live sand from garf and I have had a fabulous live sand
bed since (continually releasing nitrogen and oxygen in the tank, I'm you
can be watching the tank and 'baaalooomp' a big bubble or a group of bubbles
float from the bed to the top of the tank). I rarely do water changes
(mostly due to laziness, but partly in the quest for a complete ecosystem)
and my nitrates never get high, fish and inverts doing great.

Now as I read this it seems a DSB (deep sand bed I'm assuming) cannot
contain crushed coral for it to work? Or is there other reasons for going
through all the extra work.

Please help me out here, I'm a bit confused?

Greg
feeling lost in the new world :)

"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm wanting to change my crushed coral substrate to a DSB as one step in
> a slow migration of my FOWLR to a reef. (46 gal bowfront)
>
> So my question is, will taking out the crushed coral destroy my
> biological filter and I have to recycle the tank? I have an Emperor 400
> with biowheels as my primary biofilter. So as long as thats unharmed,
> can I put my fish back in as soon as the sand has settled and water
> cleared? (I have some liverock, but not enough for filter. prob 15lbs)
>
> and whats the best thing to do to with my biowheels to save the bacteria
> culture while they're on downtime during the switch? Leave them in the
> filter (air, no water), or submerge them in tank water (water, no air)?
>
> its gonna be a big enough headache getting my tang outta that tank for
> the change. I'm hoping she can just hang out in a bucket during the
> change. What's the total predicted time one might expect such a switch
> to take? In other words, will the fish need to be housed elsewhere for
> a few hours, overnight, or several days/weeks?
>
> TIA
> Phil
>
>
>
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> I'm wanting to change my crushed coral substrate to a DSB as one step in
> a slow migration of my FOWLR to a reef. (46 gal bowfront)

good move :D

> So my question is, will taking out the crushed coral destroy my
> biological filter and I have to recycle the tank? I have an Emperor 400
> with biowheels as my primary biofilter. So as long as thats unharmed,
> can I put my fish back in as soon as the sand has settled and water
> cleared? (I have some liverock, but not enough for filter. prob 15lbs)

no your emperor will do more than the sand bed, CC or otherwise thats part of the problem.


> and whats the best thing to do to with my biowheels to save the bacteria
> culture while they're on downtime during the switch? Leave them in the
> filter (air, no water), or submerge them in tank water (water, no air)?

water no air.

> its gonna be a big enough headache getting my tang outta that tank for
> the change. I'm hoping she can just hang out in a bucket during the
> change. What's the total predicted time one might expect such a switch
> to take? In other words, will the fish need to be housed elsewhere for
> a few hours, overnight, or several days/weeks?

id actually remove the LR that you do have, and use a vinyl tubing to remove the CC and
add sand thru a short piece of pvc with a funnel on the top, cheap to build and means you
dont have to remove fish, the fish can stay in the tank, and you can have the job
complete in an hour or so


--
Richard Reynolds

[Phil O'Connor]

Well, I'm no expert. Been at it for only 2 years. But from anecdotal evidence
on this forum and others, it seems that yes indeed the sand will fall to the
bottom and the crushed coral will be back on top.

I've also been told that my crushed coral bed is trapping detritus and other
organics that is contributing to my nitrate and algae problems. With putting a
DSB on top rather than replacing, I dont know how that would impact this
problem.

From my studies, I've read that the size of the sand grain needs to be small
enough to function correctly. I feel large gravel pieces may foil that.

Also, yes, appearance is important. For a reef, sand is the sexiest. IMHO.

I'm surprised you suggested only 5-10lbs of sand for my setup (given that
you've been thru this yourself). A DSB need be 4-6 inches to create the
requisite anoxic zone. 10 lbs would barely cover the floor.

Mind you, most of this I've either read or been told. History has shown me that
all the study and coaching in the world is no substitue for experience. So,
while I heed advice earnestly, I'm prepared that my results may vary.

Cheers
Phil


Greg wrote:

> Wow, I guess I'm really out of touch with things.
>
> Why is it you feel you need to remove the crushed coral? Couldn't you
> "activate" the current bed with 5-10 lbs of live sand from any number of
> places (for example http://www.garf.org).
>
> If you dislike the crushed coral because of the looks couldn't put a fine
> sand on top of it? Or, would the find sand then eventually fall through to
> the bottom? I suppose that might happen.
>
> I'm just feeling a little lost. I started my reef in 1998 with a live sand
> bed (crushed aragonite and crushed florida coral if I remember correctly)
> seeded it with some live sand from garf and I have had a fabulous live sand
> bed since (continually releasing nitrogen and oxygen in the tank, I'm you
> can be watching the tank and 'baaalooomp' a big bubble or a group of bubbles
> float from the bed to the top of the tank). I rarely do water changes
> (mostly due to laziness, but partly in the quest for a complete ecosystem)
> and my nitrates never get high, fish and inverts doing great.
>
> Now as I read this it seems a DSB (deep sand bed I'm assuming) cannot
> contain crushed coral for it to work? Or is there other reasons for going
> through all the extra work.
>
> Please help me out here, I'm a bit confused?
>
> Greg
> feeling lost in the new world :)
>
> ">

[Phil O'Connor]

Thanks Richard! I'm delighted at the prospect of being able to do this in place.

I am a bit unclear as to your remark on the biofilter. You're saying the biological filter
will NOT be disrupted by the change, correct? I think my question was poorly worded, so i'm
not clear on your answer. Well, I guess since you say I can leave the fish in during, that
would indicate safety.

Anyway, are you sure that can work, the part about using pvc pipe to insert the sand? Wont
the sand totally cloud up all the water when dropping it in (even thru a funnel and pipe)? I
imagine I would need to wash the sand first, right? I'm planning on a small amount of live
sand to seed a big bunch of Southdown if I can find it anywhere.

But have you done this personally? I'm really afraid the water would be too murky with your
suggestion. I dont know, of course, just dont want to find out the hard way :-)

Thanks.
Phil


Richard Reynolds wrote:

>
>
> > So my question is, will taking out the crushed coral destroy my
> > biological filter and I have to recycle the tank? I have an Emperor 400
> > with biowheels as my primary biofilter. So as long as thats unharmed,
> > can I put my fish back in as soon as the sand has settled and water
> > cleared? (I have some liverock, but not enough for filter. prob 15lbs)
>
> no your emperor will do more than the sand bed, CC or otherwise thats part of the problem.
>
>
>
> --
> Richard Reynolds
>

[Chris \(....\)]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:1IGac.36083$_U.14019@lakeread05...
.....
> > its gonna be a big enough headache getting my tang outta that tank for
> > the change. I'm hoping she can just hang out in a bucket during the
> > change. What's the total predicted time one might expect such a switch
> > to take? In other words, will the fish need to be housed elsewhere for
> > a few hours, overnight, or several days/weeks?
>
> id actually remove the LR that you do have, and use a vinyl tubing to
remove the CC and
> add sand thru a short piece of pvc with a funnel on the top, cheap to
build and means you
> dont have to remove fish, the fish can stay in the tank, and you can have
the job
> complete in an hour or so
>
>
> --
> Richard Reynolds
>
>


I actully did that on my tank, but i cut the bottom off a 2 liter soda
bottle aand attached the top end to a piece of pvc pipe, that way i could
get the sand right where i wanted it, around my LR.

[Richard Reynolds]

> Thanks Richard! I'm delighted at the prospect of being able to do this in place.

:D

> I am a bit unclear as to your remark on the biofilter. You're saying the biological
filter
> will NOT be disrupted by the change, correct? I think my question was poorly worded, so
i'm
> not clear on your answer. Well, I guess since you say I can leave the fish in during,
that
> would indicate safety.

this wont effect the bio filtration in almost any way, and itll be minimal you wont get a
real spike of any kind as the bacteria will awaken fast
that would not be the time to add a new fish though

> Anyway, are you sure that can work, the part about using pvc pipe to insert the sand?
Wont
> the sand totally cloud up all the water when dropping it in (even thru a funnel and
pipe)? I
> imagine I would need to wash the sand first, right? I'm planning on a small amount of
live
> sand to seed a big bunch of Southdown if I can find it anywhere.

dont wash it, and dont use the funnel/pvc on the live sand but yep works great but GO
SLOW!!!!

for the LS its best to use a cup and carefully put it on the base sand after your finished

> But have you done this personally? I'm really afraid the water would be too murky with
your
> suggestion. I dont know, of course, just dont want to find out the hard way :-)

yep works great
its been a few years now but if you search the idea was posted here by someone else and
its been tried again and again.

any sand storm will be small, and wont effect fish,


--
Richard Reynolds

[Phil]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in
news:v0Jac.36103$_U.6387@lakeread05:
>
> dont wash it, and dont use the funnel/pvc on the live sand but yep
> works great but GO SLOW!!!!
>

Sounds great. I've just been doing some more research on DSB, and I found
a statement allegedly put out by Southdown that said their sand absolutely
must be washed before using in aquaria. Apparently their storage bins and
excavation tools are also used for other minerals, as well as oil spray
treatments to the bins. They assert there is contamination. Still usable,
but must be washed first.

http://home.comcast.net/~louisdemers/southdown.htm

Just puttin it out there

[Kelly]

>>use a vinyl tubing to remove the CC

How do you mean?

[Richard Reynolds]

> >>use a vinyl tubing to remove the CC
>
> How do you mean?

ok i used "vinyl tubing" to mean any kind of flexiable tubing, and I should have added
larger in diameter than most of your CC

just siphon(sp) it all out

you can make it complex or simple, I like simple when you only do the job once, so use a
1" flex tubing and a bucket, fill the bucket full pour back the water do whatever with the
CC and keep going until the tank is bare. ive done this probibly 15 times now. with CC and
more with sand, it works nice enough. keeps the labor down and isnt too messy (nothing is
safe around me)

--
Richard Reynolds

[Kelly]

lol I tend to make a big mess when it comes to the tanks too :), thanks I
get it now..
"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:9rOac.36146$_U.23180@lakeread05...
> > >>use a vinyl tubing to remove the CC
> >
> > How do you mean?
>
> ok i used "vinyl tubing" to mean any kind of flexiable tubing, and I
should have added
> larger in diameter than most of your CC
>
> just siphon(sp) it all out
>
> you can make it complex or simple, I like simple when you only do the job
once, so use a
> 1" flex tubing and a bucket, fill the bucket full pour back the water do
whatever with the
> CC and keep going until the tank is bare. ive done this probibly 15 times
now. with CC and
> more with sand, it works nice enough. keeps the labor down and isnt too
messy (nothing is
> safe around me)
>
> --
> Richard Reynolds
>
>
>

[Greg]

> I'm surprised you suggested only 5-10lbs of sand for my setup (given that
> you've been thru this yourself). A DSB need be 4-6 inches to create the
> requisite anoxic zone. 10 lbs would barely cover the floor.
>

The 5-10 lbs would just be the "seed" to the rest of the none "live" sand.

My bed is about 4 inches.

Greg

"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I'm no expert. Been at it for only 2 years. But from anecdotal
evidence
> on this forum and others, it seems that yes indeed the sand will fall to
the
> bottom and the crushed coral will be back on top.
>
> I've also been told that my crushed coral bed is trapping detritus and
other
> organics that is contributing to my nitrate and algae problems. With
putting a
> DSB on top rather than replacing, I dont know how that would impact this
> problem.
>
> From my studies, I've read that the size of the sand grain needs to be
small
> enough to function correctly. I feel large gravel pieces may foil that.
>
> Also, yes, appearance is important. For a reef, sand is the sexiest. IMHO.
>
> I'm surprised you suggested only 5-10lbs of sand for my setup (given that
> you've been thru this yourself). A DSB need be 4-6 inches to create the
> requisite anoxic zone. 10 lbs would barely cover the floor.
>
> Mind you, most of this I've either read or been told. History has shown me
that
> all the study and coaching in the world is no substitue for experience.
So,
> while I heed advice earnestly, I'm prepared that my results may vary.
>
> Cheers
> Phil
>
>
> Greg wrote:
>
> > Wow, I guess I'm really out of touch with things.
> >
> > Why is it you feel you need to remove the crushed coral? Couldn't you
> > "activate" the current bed with 5-10 lbs of live sand from any number of
> > places (for example http://www.garf.org).
> >
> > If you dislike the crushed coral because of the looks couldn't put a
fine
> > sand on top of it? Or, would the find sand then eventually fall through
to
> > the bottom? I suppose that might happen.
> >
> > I'm just feeling a little lost. I started my reef in 1998 with a live
sand
> > bed (crushed aragonite and crushed florida coral if I remember
correctly)
> > seeded it with some live sand from garf and I have had a fabulous live
sand
> > bed since (continually releasing nitrogen and oxygen in the tank, I'm
you
> > can be watching the tank and 'baaalooomp' a big bubble or a group of
bubbles
> > float from the bed to the top of the tank). I rarely do water changes
> > (mostly due to laziness, but partly in the quest for a complete
ecosystem)
> > and my nitrates never get high, fish and inverts doing great.
> >
> > Now as I read this it seems a DSB (deep sand bed I'm assuming) cannot
> > contain crushed coral for it to work? Or is there other reasons for
going
> > through all the extra work.
> >
> > Please help me out here, I'm a bit confused?
> >
> > Greg
> > feeling lost in the new world :)
> >
> > ">
>

[Steve Sells]

remember to TURN OFF all powerheads, and filters until after the cloud
settles, if you leave them running you will have a mess in the water.

Steve

[Marc Levenson]

Phil, if you do as Richard suggested, you can seed your new sand with a few cups
of the CC substrate. Just pour some into a piece (section) of pantyhose, and
lay that on the DSB. After about 2 weeks, pull that out, and the critters from
the CC will be in your sand.

Marc


Phil O'Connor wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm wanting to change my crushed coral substrate to a DSB as one step in
> a slow migration of my FOWLR to a reef. (46 gal bowfront)
>
> So my question is, will taking out the crushed coral destroy my
> biological filter and I have to recycle the tank? I have an Emperor 400
> with biowheels as my primary biofilter. So as long as thats unharmed,
> can I put my fish back in as soon as the sand has settled and water
> cleared? (I have some liverock, but not enough for filter. prob 15lbs)
>
> and whats the best thing to do to with my biowheels to save the bacteria
> culture while they're on downtime during the switch? Leave them in the
> filter (air, no water), or submerge them in tank water (water, no air)?
>
> its gonna be a big enough headache getting my tang outta that tank for
> the change. I'm hoping she can just hang out in a bucket during the
> change. What's the total predicted time one might expect such a switch
> to take? In other words, will the fish need to be housed elsewhere for
> a few hours, overnight, or several days/weeks?
>
> TIA
> Phil

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Mike O'Connor]

Phil:

Also remember to avoid disturbing the eco system in your filter.(ie don't
clean it). Maybe turn it off for a short time,but the biofiltration in your
filter will prevent your tank from crashing.
"Kelly" > wrote in message news:%7Oac.2442$Ig.458@pd7tw2no...
> >>use a vinyl tubing to remove the CC
>
> How do you mean?
>
>