My tank chemistry readings...how to interpret

[ah]

I have used those Doc Wellfish water chemistry test strips a few
times...while I find them somewhat hard to use (some of the color
gradations are too slight for MY eye to distinguish between...), I
seem to consistently come up with the following readings:

Nitrates - 180
Nitrites - 0
Hardness - Very Hard
Alkalinity - 40
Ph - 7.8


So what does this info mean about my tank water quality and what
should I do to improve things??? Also, what effect would these kinds
of readings have on plant growth???


-Andy

[richard_b]

My Thoughts:

high nitrates and 0 nitrites - probably a good cycle working and converting
ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

The nitrates are rather high though - you may not be changing enough water
often enough or your source water may be high - test the source water and
post the nitrate level. increase the water changes gradually - don't do one
big one all of a sudden - osmotic shock could result otherwise.

The hardness - sounds pretty hard to me - combined with the 7.8 ph African
cichlids sound like a good option to me.

Cheers

Richard


"ah" > wrote in message
...
> I have used those Doc Wellfish water chemistry test strips a few
> times...while I find them somewhat hard to use (some of the color
> gradations are too slight for MY eye to distinguish between...), I
> seem to consistently come up with the following readings:
>
> Nitrates - 180
> Nitrites - 0
> Hardness - Very Hard
> Alkalinity - 40
> Ph - 7.8
>
>
> So what does this info mean about my tank water quality and what
> should I do to improve things??? Also, what effect would these kinds
> of readings have on plant growth???
>
>
> -Andy

[NetMax]

"ah" > wrote in message
...
>I have used those Doc Wellfish water chemistry test strips a few
> times...while I find them somewhat hard to use (some of the color
> gradations are too slight for MY eye to distinguish between...), I
> seem to consistently come up with the following readings:
>
> Nitrates - 180
> Nitrites - 0
> Hardness - Very Hard
> Alkalinity - 40
> Ph - 7.8
>
>
> So what does this info mean about my tank water quality

Nitrates and no nitrites means the tank is cycled (waste processing = waste
production). High nitrates (over 60ppm) is usually a sign of poor
maintenance (insufficient water changes) or old tank syndrome (excess
amounts of decaying organic matter, usually in the substrate and/or filter
systems). If you read up on old tank syndrome, they typically talk about a
pH crash (from the acidification exhausting the water's buffer). However in
water conditions where the buffer is high, such as yours (kH of 40 is very
high, 40dkH?), the symptoms manifest themselves in seemingly uncontrollable
nitrate levels.

> and what
> should I do to improve things???

Lack of water changes and old-tank syndrome are both related to maintenance.
Gravel vacuum, clean the filters, do more frequent water changes. This will
bring the NO3 levels down. Note however, that an NO3 level of 180ppm is
basically a thick organic soup, and if you were to suddenly move the fish
into a zero NO3 environment, the change in osmotic pressure would cause
their gill cells to explode. You will need to make the changes gradually.

> Also, what effect would these kinds
> of readings have on plant growth???

We're sure the plants aren't lacking NO3 ;~). Do you have any live plants
now? I would be curious to know what your general hardness is. With a kH
of 40, I think the gH would be even higher. There aren't too many plants
which can do well in very hard water environments, Hornwort and some
Echinodorous come to mind (this group will have better suggestions). I have
Swords in hard water, but I try to keep it under 16dgH. When my well
seasonally goes to 36dgH, I'm alternating water changes between my softener
and the well, to keep my total gH down, at the expense of a little more salt
(which the fish do not mind, but I can't say the same thing about the
plants).

Off-hand, if your hardness is greater than 40dgH, I would suggest you take a
look at silk plants.

If your hardness is around 40ppm though (about 2dgH) then the situation
changes considerably!!! but since you called it very hard, I suspect the
former.

I think your pH reading might be suspect. Pour a glass of tap water and
measure the pH. Then leave the glass on the counter to air a few days and
then measure the pH again. The first reading is false, affected by the
amount of gases you may or may not have in your water. The 2nd reading
after airing is your true pH. The reading from your tank is your current pH
(as affected by whatever is in there to affect it up or down). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

> -Andy

[Charles]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:47:40 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"ah" > wrote in message
...
>>I have used those Doc Wellfish water chemistry test strips a few
>> times...while I find them somewhat hard to use (some of the color
>> gradations are too slight for MY eye to distinguish between...), I
>> seem to consistently come up with the following readings:
>>
>> Nitrates - 180
>> Nitrites - 0
>> Hardness - Very Hard
>> Alkalinity - 40
>> Ph - 7.8
>>
>>
>> So what does this info mean about my tank water quality
>
>Nitrates and no nitrites means the tank is cycled (waste processing = waste
>production). High nitrates (over 60ppm) is usually a sign of poor
>maintenance (insufficient water changes) or old tank syndrome (excess
>amounts of decaying organic matter, usually in the substrate and/or filter
>systems). If you read up on old tank syndrome, they typically talk about a
>pH crash (from the acidification exhausting the water's buffer). However in
>water conditions where the buffer is high, such as yours (kH of 40 is very
>high, 40dkH?), the symptoms manifest themselves in seemingly uncontrollable
>nitrate levels.
>
>> and what
>> should I do to improve things???
>
>Lack of water changes and old-tank syndrome are both related to maintenance.
>Gravel vacuum, clean the filters, do more frequent water changes. This will
>bring the NO3 levels down. Note however, that an NO3 level of 180ppm is
>basically a thick organic soup, and if you were to suddenly move the fish
>into a zero NO3 environment, the change in osmotic pressure would cause
>their gill cells to explode. You will need to make the changes gradually.
>
>> Also, what effect would these kinds
>> of readings have on plant growth???
>
>We're sure the plants aren't lacking NO3 ;~). Do you have any live plants
>now? I would be curious to know what your general hardness is. With a kH
>of 40, I think the gH would be even higher. There aren't too many plants
>which can do well in very hard water environments, Hornwort and some
>Echinodorous come to mind (this group will have better suggestions). I have
>Swords in hard water, but I try to keep it under 16dgH. When my well
>seasonally goes to 36dgH, I'm alternating water changes between my softener
>and the well, to keep my total gH down, at the expense of a little more salt
>(which the fish do not mind, but I can't say the same thing about the
>plants).
>
>Off-hand, if your hardness is greater than 40dgH, I would suggest you take a
>look at silk plants.
>
>If your hardness is around 40ppm though (about 2dgH) then the situation
>changes considerably!!! but since you called it very hard, I suspect the
>former.
>
>I think your pH reading might be suspect. Pour a glass of tap water and
>measure the pH. Then leave the glass on the counter to air a few days and
>then measure the pH again. The first reading is false, affected by the
>amount of gases you may or may not have in your water. The 2nd reading
>after airing is your true pH. The reading from your tank is your current pH
>(as affected by whatever is in there to affect it up or down). hth


I wondered about the 40 carbonate as well, but I'm not familiar with
that kit.

My water runs GH 55 and one tank I recently tested had KH 5.

For my somewhat hard water, I am growing echinodorous, vallisnaria,
egeria, lilaeopsis, hornwort, anubius, and some things I forgot what
they are. Java moss grows like algae, Java fern doesn't do too well.
Oh, some Cryptocorynes as well.

some of those may be spelled right, I hope I got close.

[NetMax]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:47:40 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"ah" > wrote in message
...
>>>I have used those Doc Wellfish water chemistry test strips a few
>>> times...while I find them somewhat hard to use (some of the color
>>> gradations are too slight for MY eye to distinguish between...), I
>>> seem to consistently come up with the following readings:
>>>
>>> Nitrates - 180
>>> Nitrites - 0
>>> Hardness - Very Hard
>>> Alkalinity - 40
>>> Ph - 7.8
>>>
>>>
>>> So what does this info mean about my tank water quality
>>
>>Nitrates and no nitrites means the tank is cycled (waste processing =
>>waste
>>production). High nitrates (over 60ppm) is usually a sign of poor
>>maintenance (insufficient water changes) or old tank syndrome (excess
>>amounts of decaying organic matter, usually in the substrate and/or
>>filter
>>systems). If you read up on old tank syndrome, they typically talk
>>about a
>>pH crash (from the acidification exhausting the water's buffer).
>>However in
>>water conditions where the buffer is high, such as yours (kH of 40 is
>>very
>>high, 40dkH?), the symptoms manifest themselves in seemingly
>>uncontrollable
>>nitrate levels.
>>
>>> and what
>>> should I do to improve things???
>>
>>Lack of water changes and old-tank syndrome are both related to
>>maintenance.
>>Gravel vacuum, clean the filters, do more frequent water changes. This
>>will
>>bring the NO3 levels down. Note however, that an NO3 level of 180ppm
>>is
>>basically a thick organic soup, and if you were to suddenly move the
>>fish
>>into a zero NO3 environment, the change in osmotic pressure would cause
>>their gill cells to explode. You will need to make the changes
>>gradually.
>>
>>> Also, what effect would these kinds
>>> of readings have on plant growth???
>>
>>We're sure the plants aren't lacking NO3 ;~). Do you have any live
>>plants
>>now? I would be curious to know what your general hardness is. With a
>>kH
>>of 40, I think the gH would be even higher. There aren't too many
>>plants
>>which can do well in very hard water environments, Hornwort and some
>>Echinodorous come to mind (this group will have better suggestions). I
>>have
>>Swords in hard water, but I try to keep it under 16dgH. When my well
>>seasonally goes to 36dgH, I'm alternating water changes between my
>>softener
>>and the well, to keep my total gH down, at the expense of a little more
>>salt
>>(which the fish do not mind, but I can't say the same thing about the
>>plants).
>>
>>Off-hand, if your hardness is greater than 40dgH, I would suggest you
>>take a
>>look at silk plants.
>>
>>If your hardness is around 40ppm though (about 2dgH) then the situation
>>changes considerably!!! but since you called it very hard, I suspect
>>the
>>former.
>>
>>I think your pH reading might be suspect. Pour a glass of tap water
>>and
>>measure the pH. Then leave the glass on the counter to air a few days
>>and
>>then measure the pH again. The first reading is false, affected by the
>>amount of gases you may or may not have in your water. The 2nd reading
>>after airing is your true pH. The reading from your tank is your
>>current pH
>>(as affected by whatever is in there to affect it up or down). hth
>
>
> I wondered about the 40 carbonate as well, but I'm not familiar with
> that kit.
>
> My water runs GH 55 and one tank I recently tested had KH 5.
>
> For my somewhat hard water, I am growing echinodorous, vallisnaria,
> egeria, lilaeopsis, hornwort, anubius, and some things I forgot what
> they are. Java moss grows like algae, Java fern doesn't do too well.
> Oh, some Cryptocorynes as well.
>
> some of those may be spelled right, I hope I got close.

Spelling looks better than mine ;~). A general hardness (gH) of 55ppm is
about 3dgH (the d is for degrees), or quite soft. A gH of 55dgH is about
1000ppm, probably still a liquid form, but just ;~). The same applies to
kH, 1dkH=17.9ppm kH (iirc).

With karbonate hardness (kH), alkalinity or buffer (all the same thing),
the numbers are less interesting for plants or fish, and more interesting
for pH stability. They recommend a kH of around 5 or 6dkH for good
stability. Less and you're more prone to variations in pH due to
downward influences (mopani driftwood, CO2 injection, etc). A higher kH
and it's more difficult to change your pH downward (which is sometimes
desirable).

hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gail Futoran]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
[snip]
> I wondered about the 40 carbonate as well, but I'm not familiar with
> that kit.
>
> My water runs GH 55 and one tank I recently tested had KH 5.
>
> For my somewhat hard water, I am growing echinodorous, vallisnaria,
> egeria, lilaeopsis, hornwort, anubius, and some things I forgot what
> they are. Java moss grows like algae, Java fern doesn't do too well.
> Oh, some Cryptocorynes as well.
> some of those may be spelled right, I hope I got close.

I grow many of the same plants you grow. My
pH tends to range around 7.2-7.6; KH around
7 or 8 (varies depending on tank) with GH
higher. My Java Fern does very well. At least,
it gives me lots of babies, and looks healthy
on various pieces of driftwood. :)

Crypt wendtii grows like a weed in all my
tanks, even before I got around to putting in
a decent substrate. It grew out of plain gravel
and plain inert sand in different tanks. I hope
it does as well in profile+flourite!

No CO2 injection, I just go with plants that
survive in my tanks' conditions.

Gail

[Charles]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:52:15 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Charles" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:47:40 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"ah" > wrote in message
...
>>>>I have used those Doc Wellfish water chemistry test strips a few
>>>> times...while I find them somewhat hard to use (some of the color
>>>> gradations are too slight for MY eye to distinguish between...), I
>>>> seem to consistently come up with the following readings:
>>>>
>>>> Nitrates - 180
>>>> Nitrites - 0
>>>> Hardness - Very Hard
>>>> Alkalinity - 40
>>>> Ph - 7.8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So what does this info mean about my tank water quality
>>>
>>>Nitrates and no nitrites means the tank is cycled (waste processing =
>>>waste
>>>production). High nitrates (over 60ppm) is usually a sign of poor
>>>maintenance (insufficient water changes) or old tank syndrome (excess
>>>amounts of decaying organic matter, usually in the substrate and/or
>>>filter
>>>systems). If you read up on old tank syndrome, they typically talk
>>>about a
>>>pH crash (from the acidification exhausting the water's buffer).
>>>However in
>>>water conditions where the buffer is high, such as yours (kH of 40 is
>>>very
>>>high, 40dkH?), the symptoms manifest themselves in seemingly
>>>uncontrollable
>>>nitrate levels.
>>>
>>>> and what
>>>> should I do to improve things???
>>>
>>>Lack of water changes and old-tank syndrome are both related to
>>>maintenance.
>>>Gravel vacuum, clean the filters, do more frequent water changes. This
>>>will
>>>bring the NO3 levels down. Note however, that an NO3 level of 180ppm
>>>is
>>>basically a thick organic soup, and if you were to suddenly move the
>>>fish
>>>into a zero NO3 environment, the change in osmotic pressure would cause
>>>their gill cells to explode. You will need to make the changes
>>>gradually.
>>>
>>>> Also, what effect would these kinds
>>>> of readings have on plant growth???
>>>
>>>We're sure the plants aren't lacking NO3 ;~). Do you have any live
>>>plants
>>>now? I would be curious to know what your general hardness is. With a
>>>kH
>>>of 40, I think the gH would be even higher. There aren't too many
>>>plants
>>>which can do well in very hard water environments, Hornwort and some
>>>Echinodorous come to mind (this group will have better suggestions). I
>>>have
>>>Swords in hard water, but I try to keep it under 16dgH. When my well
>>>seasonally goes to 36dgH, I'm alternating water changes between my
>>>softener
>>>and the well, to keep my total gH down, at the expense of a little more
>>>salt
>>>(which the fish do not mind, but I can't say the same thing about the
>>>plants).
>>>
>>>Off-hand, if your hardness is greater than 40dgH, I would suggest you
>>>take a
>>>look at silk plants.
>>>
>>>If your hardness is around 40ppm though (about 2dgH) then the situation
>>>changes considerably!!! but since you called it very hard, I suspect
>>>the
>>>former.
>>>
>>>I think your pH reading might be suspect. Pour a glass of tap water
>>>and
>>>measure the pH. Then leave the glass on the counter to air a few days
>>>and
>>>then measure the pH again. The first reading is false, affected by the
>>>amount of gases you may or may not have in your water. The 2nd reading
>>>after airing is your true pH. The reading from your tank is your
>>>current pH
>>>(as affected by whatever is in there to affect it up or down). hth
>>
>>
>> I wondered about the 40 carbonate as well, but I'm not familiar with
>> that kit.
>>
>> My water runs GH 55 and one tank I recently tested had KH 5.
>>
>> For my somewhat hard water, I am growing echinodorous, vallisnaria,
>> egeria, lilaeopsis, hornwort, anubius, and some things I forgot what
>> they are. Java moss grows like algae, Java fern doesn't do too well.
>> Oh, some Cryptocorynes as well.
>>
>> some of those may be spelled right, I hope I got close.
>
>Spelling looks better than mine ;~). A general hardness (gH) of 55ppm is
>about 3dgH (the d is for degrees), or quite soft. A gH of 55dgH is about
>1000ppm, probably still a liquid form, but just ;~). The same applies to
>kH, 1dkH=17.9ppm kH (iirc).
>
No, No, 55dGH, ppm runs from 600 to 1100 ppm. with 90% RO, I'd still
have hard water.

>With karbonate hardness (kH), alkalinity or buffer (all the same thing),
>the numbers are less interesting for plants or fish, and more interesting
>for pH stability. They recommend a kH of around 5 or 6dkH for good
>stability. Less and you're more prone to variations in pH due to
>downward influences (mopani driftwood, CO2 injection, etc). A higher kH
>and it's more difficult to change your pH downward (which is sometimes
>desirable).
>
>hth


I should check the tap water, I suppose, that was just one tank that I
was interested in. I may have some biogenic decalcification going in
there. Carbonate hardness is useful to some plants when co@ runs low,
at least that's what Diane tells us.

[Richard Sexton]

>>stability. Less and you're more prone to variations in pH due to
>>downward influences (mopani driftwood, CO2 injection, etc). A higher kH

Uh yeah, ABOUT that. Mopani's influence is not to be believed. I have 1200
ppm water and dropped a small (small!) chunck into a tank with about 30
each of 2 rare species of snails - spotted nerites and porcupine snails.

Within a week the water was slightly amber and all the snails were dead.

Huh.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>stability. Less and you're more prone to variations in pH due to
>>>downward influences (mopani driftwood, CO2 injection, etc). A higher
>>>kH
>
> Uh yeah, ABOUT that. Mopani's influence is not to be believed. I have
> 1200
> ppm water and dropped a small (small!) chunck into a tank with about 30
> each of 2 rare species of snails - spotted nerites and porcupine
> snails.
>
> Within a week the water was slightly amber and all the snails were
> dead.
>
> Huh.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org


The implication being... ? My experience with mopani is limited to
fresh, store pieces in low kH, soft water, medium pH. By itself, the
mopani just added a tinge to the water. If I added CO2, or my water
changing got lax, the pH would dive. The mopani would have been a net
contributor to the acidification, though I don't know how acute. Going
by appearances (the tannins and humic acid), it was probably not
completely insignificant, though by itself, it probably would have
minimal effect in the face of regular water changes (unless the piece was
quite large relative to the tank).

In 1200ppm water, I don't think it would do much but color the water.
Too bad about the snails (that's a mystery, some fungus on the wood?). I
used to sell and promote nerites, but I'm not familiar with a Porcupine
snail (but I know what you get when you mix a porcupine & a snail - a
slowpoke ;~).
*groan*
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
NetMax > wrote:
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>>stability. Less and you're more prone to variations in pH due to
>>>>downward influences (mopani driftwood, CO2 injection, etc). A higher
>>>>kH
>>
>> Uh yeah, ABOUT that. Mopani's influence is not to be believed. I have
>> 1200
>> ppm water and dropped a small (small!) chunck into a tank with about 30
>> each of 2 rare species of snails - spotted nerites and porcupine
>> snails.
>>
>> Within a week the water was slightly amber and all the snails were
>> dead.
>>
>> Huh.
>>
>
>The implication being... ? My experience with mopani is limited to

The water went right acid, acid + hard water let the plants use the
CO2 (pants wre doing great), this kept going till all the hardness
was gone, snails died in soft water.

Plants were doing well and no algae. I havn't chnaged water in there
this year, there's no fish in that tank, just snails.

>fresh, store pieces in low kH, soft water, medium pH. By itself, the
>mopani just added a tinge to the water. If I added CO2, or my water
>changing got lax, the pH would dive. The mopani would have been a net
>contributor to the acidification, though I don't know how acute. Going
>by appearances (the tannins and humic acid), it was probably not
>completely insignificant, though by itself, it probably would have
>minimal effect in the face of regular water changes (unless the piece was
>quite large relative to the tank).
>
>In 1200ppm water, I don't think it would do much but color the water.
>Too bad about the snails (that's a mystery, some fungus on the wood?). I
>used to sell and promote nerites, but I'm not familiar with a Porcupine
>snail (but I know what you get when you mix a porcupine & a snail - a
>slowpoke ;~).
>*groan*
>

Well, uh, I can probbaly show you a shell, but that's about it.




--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> NetMax > wrote:
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>stability. Less and you're more prone to variations in pH due to
>>>>>downward influences (mopani driftwood, CO2 injection, etc). A
>>>>>higher
>>>>>kH
>>>
>>> Uh yeah, ABOUT that. Mopani's influence is not to be believed. I have
>>> 1200
>>> ppm water and dropped a small (small!) chunck into a tank with about
>>> 30
>>> each of 2 rare species of snails - spotted nerites and porcupine
>>> snails.
>>>
>>> Within a week the water was slightly amber and all the snails were
>>> dead.
>>>
>>> Huh.
>>>
>>
>>The implication being... ? My experience with mopani is limited to
>
> The water went right acid, acid + hard water let the plants use the
> CO2 (pants wre doing great), this kept going till all the hardness
> was gone, snails died in soft water.

Wow, I'm surprised that so much acidification could be attributed to a
small chunk of Mopani. I don't think this is typical. If it was, they
would be selling a lot more Mopani to people like me on well-water ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Plants were doing well and no algae. I havn't chnaged water in there
> this year, there's no fish in that tank, just snails.
>
>>fresh, store pieces in low kH, soft water, medium pH. By itself, the
>>mopani just added a tinge to the water. If I added CO2, or my water
>>changing got lax, the pH would dive. The mopani would have been a net
>>contributor to the acidification, though I don't know how acute. Going
>>by appearances (the tannins and humic acid), it was probably not
>>completely insignificant, though by itself, it probably would have
>>minimal effect in the face of regular water changes (unless the piece
>>was
>>quite large relative to the tank).
>>
>>In 1200ppm water, I don't think it would do much but color the water.
>>Too bad about the snails (that's a mystery, some fungus on the wood?).
>>I
>>used to sell and promote nerites, but I'm not familiar with a Porcupine
>>snail (but I know what you get when you mix a porcupine & a snail - a
>>slowpoke ;~).
>>*groan*
>>
>
> Well, uh, I can probbaly show you a shell, but that's about it.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[sshaunwatson]

I think you might be wondering pH readings. Pour a glass of tap water measured pH. Then a few days left on the glass counter, air then measure the pH value. Reading is false, by amount of gas may or may not be in your water.