Salt tests

[miskairal]

Hi all,

I am using Coralife's salt and was getting Calcium readings of 600,
Phosphates of 0 and KH of 5 using RO water mixed to a SG of 1.023. The
RO water is made from creek water and has a pH of 7.5 but mixes up to
8.4 with the coralife salt.

Well I've finally managed to get hold of two other brands of salt and
went through the chore of testing them today. Thought I'd share my
findings. I mixed each in about 6 litres of RO water. I'm in Oz, don't
know if that makes any difference to the makeup of the salt. Should I
have checked nitrates (I was getting sick of testing and got lazy)? I
used the same test kits for all the tests, they are all different brands
but the comparison between each test will still be correct, even if the
readings aren't 100% accurate.

Red Sea salt
SG 1.023
pH 8.4
Ca 480
Alk 10
* PHOSPHATES 0.5 *

Aquasonic's Ocean Nature
SG 1.023
pH 8.4
Ca 500
Alk 8-9
* PHOSPHATES 0.25 *

How is a person supposed to know what to use for goodness sake?

[Billy]

"miskairal" > wrote in
message ...
> How is a person supposed to know what to use for goodness sake?

Really, just pick one of the widely available ones and stick with it.
It's mostly personal preference. I've never seen concrete evidence
that any one salt mix is superior, nor inferior. Some will disagree
with that, but again, everyone has their prefs.

[~Roy~]

About all you can do is experiment and go with what suits your needs.
I do not mind salt high in calcium levels as my tanks suck calcium up
pretty quick.....usually cal and alk go hand in hand within a range.
A relatively new tank presents problems until its matured and
stabilizes out in relationship to elements it consumes



On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:44:55 +1000, miskairal
> wrote:
>><>Hi all,
>><>
>><>I am using Coralife's salt and was getting Calcium readings of 600,
>><>Phosphates of 0 and KH of 5 using RO water mixed to a SG of 1.023. The
>><>RO water is made from creek water and has a pH of 7.5 but mixes up to
>><>8.4 with the coralife salt.
>><>
>><>Well I've finally managed to get hold of two other brands of salt and
>><>went through the chore of testing them today. Thought I'd share my
>><>findings. I mixed each in about 6 litres of RO water. I'm in Oz, don't
>><>know if that makes any difference to the makeup of the salt. Should I
>><>have checked nitrates (I was getting sick of testing and got lazy)? I
>><>used the same test kits for all the tests, they are all different brands
>><>but the comparison between each test will still be correct, even if the
>><>readings aren't 100% accurate.
>><>
>><>Red Sea salt
>><>SG 1.023
>><>pH 8.4
>><>Ca 480
>><>Alk 10
>><>* PHOSPHATES 0.5 *
>><>
>><>Aquasonic's Ocean Nature
>><>SG 1.023
>><>pH 8.4
>><>Ca 500
>><>Alk 8-9
>><>* PHOSPHATES 0.25 *
>><>
>><>How is a person supposed to know what to use for goodness sake?

--
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oooO
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\ ( ( )
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(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Pszemol]

"miskairal" > wrote in message ...
> I am using Coralife's salt and was getting Calcium readings of 600,
> Phosphates of 0 and KH of 5 using RO water mixed to a SG of 1.023.
[...]
> Red Sea salt
> * PHOSPHATES 0.5 *
>
> Aquasonic's Ocean Nature
> * PHOSPHATES 0.25 *
>
> How is a person supposed to know what to use for goodness sake?

If I were you, I would stay away from salt mixes which contain any
phosphates... From three you have tested, I would pick Coralife.

[miskairal]

That's about what I had decided Pszemol as my tank is still so new and
I'm having enough trouble keeping algae at bay. I'll use this other
stuff in my quarantine tank as it won't be able to do much harm in there.

Pszemol wrote:
> "miskairal" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I am using Coralife's salt and was getting Calcium readings of 600,
>> Phosphates of 0 and KH of 5 using RO water mixed to a SG of 1.023.
>
> [...]
>
>> Red Sea salt
>> * PHOSPHATES 0.5 *
>>
>> Aquasonic's Ocean Nature
>> * PHOSPHATES 0.25 *
>>
>> How is a person supposed to know what to use for goodness sake?
>
>
> If I were you, I would stay away from salt mixes which contain any
> phosphates... From three you have tested, I would pick Coralife.

[~Roy~]

I know as well as you do, that algae has to have a source of nutrients
to thrive, and also that a new tank can have algae initially. I
assume you have checked your source of water for any "hitch hiker"
sources of nutrition in the line of phosphates and nitrates, right?

Are you leaving your tanks lights on over 10 hours in time? IMNSHO
lighting on over 10 in most cases promotes alage growth.....I take it
your beulbs are relatively new since your tank is relatively newly
setup. What type of bulbs are you running .....sometimes just a change
of bulbs can make a difference.....I am not good with the numbers etc
on bulbs, but one time I had problems myself and even though the bulbs
I had in use were recomended for marine tank, I went to a different
kelvin rateing mainly to chanage asesthetics not as a hopefull way to
cure my algae, and it made a difference.....

If yu have actinics separate from the other bulbs, place the actinic
bulb closest to the glass and its been proven to help keep algae under
control......as the nm rateng of actinics will not promote algae
growth, and sort of block any outside light to some degree from
infiltrating the tank.

Your tank is not situated in a window or when it gets any good
naturalk sunlight is it?

I know you posted what lights you had, but that post has long been
deleted and I have a poor memory for some reason or other since
retirieng. I over flowed not one, but two tanks today while doing
topoffs......started doing one topoff, got sidetracked and left it
overflow only to do the same exact thing to another tank about 2 hours
later......Then I could not remember if I had dosed my B-Ionic or
not, and instead of chekcing calcium levels, I went and dosed
em....then did a cal check........wow talk about high calcium & Alk
levels.....I won't have to dose for a week. They are at the point some
of them are precipitating.......I knew I should have rolled over and
went back to sleep this morning.


On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:40:29 +1000, miskairal
> wrote:
>><>That's about what I had decided Pszemol as my tank is still so new and
>><>I'm having enough trouble keeping algae at bay. I'll use this other
>><>stuff in my quarantine tank as it won't be able to do much harm in there.
>><>
>><>Pszemol wrote:
>><>> "miskairal" > wrote in message
>><>> ...
>><>>
>><>>> I am using Coralife's salt and was getting Calcium readings of 600,
>><>>> Phosphates of 0 and KH of 5 using RO water mixed to a SG of 1.023.
>><>>
>><>> [...]
>><>>
>><>>> Red Sea salt
>><>>> * PHOSPHATES 0.5 *
>><>>>
>><>>> Aquasonic's Ocean Nature
>><>>> * PHOSPHATES 0.25 *
>><>>>
>><>>> How is a person supposed to know what to use for goodness sake?
>><>>
>><>>
>><>> If I were you, I would stay away from salt mixes which contain any
>><>> phosphates... From three you have tested, I would pick Coralife.

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Pszemol]

"~Roy~" > wrote in message ...
> I know as well as you do, that algae has to have a source of nutrients
> to thrive, and also that a new tank can have algae initially. I
> assume you have checked your source of water for any "hitch hiker"
> sources of nutrition in the line of phosphates and nitrates, right?

Miskairal has no reason for searching phosphate sources in his
water if he used the same water for two salt mixes and one is not
detecting phosphates but other does. Conclusion is quite simple:
salt mix contains phosphates...

Unless the water used in both tests is different, of course.

> If yu have actinics separate from the other bulbs, place the actinic
> bulb closest to the glass and its been proven to help keep algae under
> control......as the nm rateng of actinics will not promote algae
> growth, and sort of block any outside light to some degree from
> infiltrating the tank.

????
Could you please expand little more on the above ?

First: algae uses red and blue rays of light for photosyntesis.
Actinics look like a perfect source of high energy for algae.

Second: how do you imagine shining on the glass with a light
source could block the other light sources from entering the tank ?

My understanding of physics in not good enough to relate to your story ;-)

[~Roy~]

Ok, I attended a Reef club meeting one day in ATlanta. Their topic was
algae growth and how to eliminate or reduce it. They stated actinics
wave lengths do not support the growth of algae (green type) and by
placing the actinic bulb closest tot he front will reduce its growth,
and in regards to light shining in the tank from outside, the
wavelengths produced by actinics is enough to counter or dilute its
direct affect...that is unless its direct sunlight. I sure am not a
physics guru by any means, but to me and the others it all sounded
logical. Even the local LFS here all place their actinics closest to
the front glass,.....It has something to do with the wavelength and
color produced by actinics in regards to supporting green growth.,
Actinics do not do very well if used in a light over a fuge.....nor in
freshwater planted tanks, even the 50/50 do not do all that great as
compared to a 6500 or 10k light when it comes to green stuff.

Wavelength / is critical from what I understand to proper or improper
growth, and as bulbs age they can create problems, and a old bulb even
though it may appear bright and good to the naked eye can readily
promote algae.

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:32:12 -0600, "Pszemol" >
wrote:
>><>"~Roy~" > wrote in message ...
>><>> I know as well as you do, that algae has to have a source of nutrients
>><>> to thrive, and also that a new tank can have algae initially. I
>><>> assume you have checked your source of water for any "hitch hiker"
>><>> sources of nutrition in the line of phosphates and nitrates, right?
>><>
>><>Miskairal has no reason for searching phosphate sources in his
>><>water if he used the same water for two salt mixes and one is not
>><>detecting phosphates but other does. Conclusion is quite simple:
>><>salt mix contains phosphates...
>><>
>><>Unless the water used in both tests is different, of course.
>><>
>><>> If yu have actinics separate from the other bulbs, place the actinic
>><>> bulb closest to the glass and its been proven to help keep algae under
>><>> control......as the nm rateng of actinics will not promote algae
>><>> growth, and sort of block any outside light to some degree from
>><>> infiltrating the tank.
>><>
>><>????
>><>Could you please expand little more on the above ?
>><>
>><>First: algae uses red and blue rays of light for photosyntesis.
>><>Actinics look like a perfect source of high energy for algae.
>><>
>><>Second: how do you imagine shining on the glass with a light
>><>source could block the other light sources from entering the tank ?
>><>
>><>My understanding of physics in not good enough to relate to your story ;-)

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[George Patterson]

Pszemol wrote:

> Unless the water used in both tests is different, of course.

He said he's using RO generated from creek water. The creek water at least will
be different from day to day and maybe from hour to hour. If somebody fertilized
upstream on that day, the RO filter will have to work real hard to get all the
phosphates out.

Anytime you make a claim about phosphates or nitrates, you HAVE to test the
source water before mixing in the salt. If you don't, your tests are inconclusive.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Pszemol]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message news:6JPIf.37126$Eq.22423@trnddc02...
> He said he's using RO generated from creek water. The creek water at least will
> be different from day to day and maybe from hour to hour. If somebody fertilized
> upstream on that day, the RO filter will have to work real hard to get all the
> phosphates out.

That is true.

> Anytime you make a claim about phosphates or nitrates, you HAVE to test the
> source water before mixing in the salt. If you don't, your tests are inconclusive.

Or, just use the same bucket of water and split it between two salt mixes.

[miskairal]

"He" is a "she", ok :))

The RO water was all out of the same batch and the creek water only gets
pumped up to the tank about once a week. I fill 2 containers holding
about 90 litres in all with RO water and keep it on hand in case I need
it in an emergency because all our house water runs on pressure pumps
but as I discovered AFTER puchasing the RO unit, the RO won't pull
enough water to cause the pressure pump to come on very often which
means it makes only about 25 litres a day unless I use a lot of water
elsewhere in the house and garden (sigh). In a real emergency I'd just
have to use rainwater but the pH of that is only about 6.2 I think
whereas the creek water is about 7.5. I do have another 90 litres of
salt water made up and available in my q tank which I swap out at water
change time but when I next get new fish that won't be available.

I have previously tested the RO water for phosphates and nitrates but
didn't this time b/c it's always 0 and the unit is only 4 months old. My
main idea was to compare the made up salt mixes using the exact same
source water for each. For all we know my test kits may be useless but
we still have a comparison between salts.

Pszemol wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:6JPIf.37126$Eq.22423@trnddc02...
>
>> He said he's using RO generated from creek water. The creek water at
>> least will be different from day to day and maybe from hour to hour.
>> If somebody fertilized upstream on that day, the RO filter will have
>> to work real hard to get all the phosphates out.
>
>
> That is true.
>
>> Anytime you make a claim about phosphates or nitrates, you HAVE to
>> test the source water before mixing in the salt. If you don't, your
>> tests are inconclusive.
>
>
> Or, just use the same bucket of water and split it between two salt mixes.

[Pszemol]

"miskairal" > wrote in message u...
> "He" is a "she", ok :))

We had no idea - sorry ;-)

> have to use rainwater but the pH of that is only about 6.2 I think
> whereas the creek water is about 7.5.

This is normal and pH of rainwater is low because it lacks of buffers
which could neutralize CO2 dissolved in it. You should not be worried with
pH of rainwater and do not even measure it - same for pH of RO water...
What is important, is pH of sal****er, after mixing it and before putting
it to the tank.

> My main idea was to compare the made up salt mixes using the exact same
> source water for each.

See... I knew you would not do meaningless test with different batch of water.
So you prooved only one salt mix does not contain phosphates and use this one.

[Pszemol]

"miskairal" > wrote in message u...
> would have left sooner but I was getting a giggle out of it and I was
> the only person in the shop (surprise, surprise) so he was latched on. I
> started listening to him at the beginning because his tanks looked
> healthy and his fish even healthier. Ain't life grand when one can be
> entertained as simply as this :)

I am quite surprised his tanks look clean and fish healthy...
Maybe he was right about his methods? ;-)

[miskairal]

Pszemol wrote:
> "miskairal" > wrote in message
> u...
>
>> "He" is a "she", ok :))
>
>
> We had no idea - sorry ;-)

That's ok, gives me a giggle :)
>
>> have to use rainwater but the pH of that is only about 6.2 I think
>> whereas the creek water is about 7.5.
>
>
> This is normal and pH of rainwater is low because it lacks of buffers
> which could neutralize CO2 dissolved in it. You should not be worried with
> pH of rainwater and do not even measure it - same for pH of RO water...
> What is important, is pH of sal****er, after mixing it and before putting
> it to the tank.

But wouldn't making my salt water mix out of the rain water cause the pH
to be lower than using the creek water? I have freshwater fish as well
which is why I know the pH of those waters.
>
>> My main idea was to compare the made up salt mixes using the exact
>> same source water for each.
>
>
> See... I knew you would not do meaningless test with different batch of
> water.
> So you prooved only one salt mix does not contain phosphates and use
> this one.

Yep and I will just have to buy more coral to soak up the calcium (after
I replace the MH tubes).

[miskairal]

Pszemol wrote:
> "miskairal" > wrote in message
> u...
>
>> would have left sooner but I was getting a giggle out of it and I was
>> the only person in the shop (surprise, surprise) so he was latched on.
>> I started listening to him at the beginning because his tanks looked
>> healthy and his fish even healthier. Ain't life grand when one can be
>> entertained as simply as this :)
>
>
> I am quite surprised his tanks look clean and fish healthy...
> Maybe he was right about his methods? ;-)

And maybe his stock hadn't been there long. I think he claimed to do 15%
water changes once a month. There's another experiment - try setting up
a tank his way and see what happens?

[Pszemol]

"miskairal" > wrote in message u...
>> This is normal and pH of rainwater is low because it lacks of buffers
>> which could neutralize CO2 dissolved in it. You should not be worried with
>> pH of rainwater and do not even measure it - same for pH of RO water...
>> What is important, is pH of sal****er, after mixing it and before putting
>> it to the tank.
>
> But wouldn't making my salt water mix out of the rain water cause the pH
> to be lower than using the creek water? I have freshwater fish as well
> which is why I know the pH of those waters.

Are we talking about creek water directly or after reverse osmosis filter ?
First one would have more buffers, so pH might be slightly higher than
if rainwater was used. Second would be almost the same, since RO
filtration removes almost all buffers, like evaporation does for rainwater.
Think of rainwater as demineralized water, similar to distilled and deionized.

>> So you prooved only one salt mix does not contain phosphates and use
>> this one.
>
> Yep and I will just have to buy more coral to soak up the calcium
> (after I replace the MH tubes).

Good idea :-)

[~Roy~]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:13:49 +1000, miskairal
> wrote:

>><>> "miskairal" > wrote in message
>><>> u...
>><>>
>><>>> "He" is a "she", ok :))
>><>>
SNIP


I knew that.....of course I visited her Goat website! ;-)
--
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-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[miskairal]

Mentioning my hubby there gave it away didn't it!
I really must get in and do some work on that site as there's a few new
free programmes I want to add in. Afraid my tank takes up a lot of my
spare time these days.

~Roy~ wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:13:49 +1000, miskairal
> > wrote:
>
>
>>><>> "miskairal" > wrote in message
>>><>> u...
>>><>>
>>><>>> "He" is a "she", ok :))
>>><>>
>
> SNIP
>
>
> I knew that.....of course I visited her Goat website! ;-)

[Pszemol]

"miskairal" > wrote in message u...
>>> But wouldn't making my salt water mix out of the rain water cause the
>>> pH to be lower than using the creek water? I have freshwater fish as
>>> well which is why I know the pH of those waters.
>>
>>
>> Are we talking about creek water directly or after reverse osmosis filter ?
>> First one would have more buffers, so pH might be slightly higher than
>> if rainwater was used. Second would be almost the same, since RO
>> filtration removes almost all buffers, like evaporation does for rainwater.
>> Think of rainwater as demineralized water, similar to distilled and
>> deionized.
> The creek water is about 7.6 before RO and 7.5 after. I heard somewhere
> that RO units don't affect pH??? I haven't put rain water through the RO
> unit as it is a bit scarce here (last rain of any significance was last
> Nov!) and my hubby would sigh if I even suggested it because of all the
> plumbing he would have to do :)

Reverse osmosis filters affect pH of water in a way they remove almost
all minerals which play buffering role there. With no buffers in water, small
amount of CO2 dissolved normally in the water causes relativelly drop in pH.
CO2 in water becomes carbonic acid (H2CO3), which further dissociates
into hydrogen and bicarbonate ions (HCO3-) causing pH drop...

Many ways of measuring pH are designed to use with water at regular
hardness like tap water, creek water etc. Demineralized water (i.e. distilled,
deionized with RO/DI filters, rainwater) will be hard to correctly measure
pH and pH-meter or test kit will usually show unreal value... There will be
not much dissolved ions for the pH probe work correctly.

To test is your RO filter works correctly you need to test hardness of the
water flowing out of the filter, or even better - tds (total dissolved solids).
Lets say your creek water has TDS at 150ppm, after RO filter without
DI stage you should read less than 10-15ppm and almost 0ppm after
optional DI (deionizer) stage. Such water will be stripped of almost all
minerals causing pH differences so measuring pH of such water has
not much sense. Actually your reading of pH 7.5 after RO filter could
suggest there is something wrong with your RO or the plumbing of it
since pH should be lower and more similar to pH of your rainwater...
Get some tds meter, they are not expensive, and test your water after RO:
http://search.ebay.com.au//search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=tds

Good luck! :-)

[miskairal]

Thanks Pszemol.

I tested the KH of the RO water when I did all those salt tests and it
came out at less than or equal to 1 dKH. I haven't tested the creek
water for ages but from meory it used to be about 13dKH I think.

Pszemol wrote:
> "miskairal" > wrote in message
> u...
>
>>>> But wouldn't making my salt water mix out of the rain water cause
>>>> the pH to be lower than using the creek water? I have freshwater
>>>> fish as well which is why I know the pH of those waters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are we talking about creek water directly or after reverse osmosis
>>> filter ?
>>> First one would have more buffers, so pH might be slightly higher than
>>> if rainwater was used. Second would be almost the same, since RO
>>> filtration removes almost all buffers, like evaporation does for
>>> rainwater.
>>> Think of rainwater as demineralized water, similar to distilled and
>>> deionized.
>>
>> The creek water is about 7.6 before RO and 7.5 after. I heard
>> somewhere that RO units don't affect pH??? I haven't put rain water
>> through the RO unit as it is a bit scarce here (last rain of any
>> significance was last Nov!) and my hubby would sigh if I even
>> suggested it because of all the plumbing he would have to do :)
>
>
> Reverse osmosis filters affect pH of water in a way they remove almost
> all minerals which play buffering role there. With no buffers in water,
> small
> amount of CO2 dissolved normally in the water causes relativelly drop in
> pH.
> CO2 in water becomes carbonic acid (H2CO3), which further dissociates
> into hydrogen and bicarbonate ions (HCO3-) causing pH drop...
>
> Many ways of measuring pH are designed to use with water at regular
> hardness like tap water, creek water etc. Demineralized water (i.e.
> distilled,
> deionized with RO/DI filters, rainwater) will be hard to correctly measure
> pH and pH-meter or test kit will usually show unreal value... There will be
> not much dissolved ions for the pH probe work correctly.
>
> To test is your RO filter works correctly you need to test hardness of the
> water flowing out of the filter, or even better - tds (total dissolved
> solids).
> Lets say your creek water has TDS at 150ppm, after RO filter without
> DI stage you should read less than 10-15ppm and almost 0ppm after
> optional DI (deionizer) stage. Such water will be stripped of almost all
> minerals causing pH differences so measuring pH of such water has
> not much sense. Actually your reading of pH 7.5 after RO filter could
> suggest there is something wrong with your RO or the plumbing of it
> since pH should be lower and more similar to pH of your rainwater...
> Get some tds meter, they are not expensive, and test your water after RO:
> http://search.ebay.com.au//search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=tds
>
> Good luck! :-)