Behaviour problem with a Dutch Ram

[Gill Passman]

Hi All,

Just interested in getting some ideas....

I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen. It's "normal" occupants are 2
Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 4 Rummy Nose tetras, 4 Julli cories and a
Dutch Ram....everything was fine - a little bit of posturing between the
male gourami and the ram but nothing to write home about. The cories
came out happily and rummaged around and held those "corie type
meetings" and THEN....I put 3 Clown Loaches in there - it's a temporary
thing (they have a nice big tank to go to) but there was a snail problem
and local stock of Clowns haven't been the greatest recently so I
figured treating them (if I needed to) in the small tank would be easier
than in one of the larger ones...

A few hours after putting in the Clowns...Mr Ram decided to put the alph
a Clown in his place...he followed him, butted him etc. Mr Clown fought
back by hurling himself at the Ram and firmly pinning him down to the
substrate by sitting on his head - lol. No injuries to either fish
thankfully...

Now the issue since then is that the Ram is on a mission against any
"bottom dwelling" fish...the Clowns pretty much act in a couldn't care
less type of Clown way but the Cories are getting really timid - I
hardly see them now...

So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta against the
lower level fish? The Clowns are moving anyway in a couple of weeks but
should I also move the cories? (I like the cories being in there) Is
there anyway I can change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
female Ram to distract him? I don't want to move the Ram as he is the
first one that I have ever owned that has survived for more than 6
months - generally it is hours/days or a few weeks at most...

Any suggestions greatly appreciated

TIA
Gill

[Jim Anderson]

In article >,
says...
> Hi All,
>
> Just interested in getting some ideas....
>
> I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen. It's "normal" occupants are 2
> Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 4 Rummy Nose tetras, 4 Julli cories and a
> Dutch Ram....everything was fine - a little bit of posturing between the
> male gourami and the ram but nothing to write home about. The cories
> came out happily and rummaged around and held those "corie type
> meetings" and THEN....I put 3 Clown Loaches in there - it's a temporary
> thing (they have a nice big tank to go to) but there was a snail problem
> and local stock of Clowns haven't been the greatest recently so I
> figured treating them (if I needed to) in the small tank would be easier
> than in one of the larger ones...
>
> A few hours after putting in the Clowns...Mr Ram decided to put the alph
> a Clown in his place...he followed him, butted him etc. Mr Clown fought
> back by hurling himself at the Ram and firmly pinning him down to the
> substrate by sitting on his head - lol. No injuries to either fish
> thankfully...
>
> Now the issue since then is that the Ram is on a mission against any
> "bottom dwelling" fish...the Clowns pretty much act in a couldn't care
> less type of Clown way but the Cories are getting really timid - I
> hardly see them now...
>
> So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta against the
> lower level fish? The Clowns are moving anyway in a couple of weeks but
> should I also move the cories? (I like the cories being in there) Is
> there anyway I can change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
> female Ram to distract him? I don't want to move the Ram as he is the
> first one that I have ever owned that has survived for more than 6
> months - generally it is hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>
> TIA
> Gill
>

I have always thought that chiclids having a peeking social order do
better in groups, so they have someone to peek on ;^). I would think if
you put another male Ram in the tank, they would play together and leave
the corys alone.
Just a thought.

--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To eMail me, just pull "my_finger"

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

[Dutch Ram]

Well, google says a Dutch Ram is a male sheep.

What is a Dutch Ram aquaria-related?

--
cu
Marco

[NetMax]

"Jim Anderson" > wrote in message
et...
> In article >,
> says...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Just interested in getting some ideas....
>>
>> I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen. It's "normal" occupants are 2
>> Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 4 Rummy Nose tetras, 4 Julli cories and a
>> Dutch Ram....everything was fine - a little bit of posturing between
>> the
>> male gourami and the ram but nothing to write home about. The cories
>> came out happily and rummaged around and held those "corie type
>> meetings" and THEN....I put 3 Clown Loaches in there - it's a
>> temporary
>> thing (they have a nice big tank to go to) but there was a snail
>> problem
>> and local stock of Clowns haven't been the greatest recently so I
>> figured treating them (if I needed to) in the small tank would be
>> easier
>> than in one of the larger ones...
>>
>> A few hours after putting in the Clowns...Mr Ram decided to put the
>> alph
>> a Clown in his place...he followed him, butted him etc. Mr Clown
>> fought
>> back by hurling himself at the Ram and firmly pinning him down to the
>> substrate by sitting on his head - lol. No injuries to either fish
>> thankfully...
>>
>> Now the issue since then is that the Ram is on a mission against any
>> "bottom dwelling" fish...the Clowns pretty much act in a couldn't care
>> less type of Clown way but the Cories are getting really timid - I
>> hardly see them now...
>>
>> So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta against the
>> lower level fish? The Clowns are moving anyway in a couple of weeks
>> but
>> should I also move the cories? (I like the cories being in there) Is
>> there anyway I can change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him
>> a
>> female Ram to distract him? I don't want to move the Ram as he is the
>> first one that I have ever owned that has survived for more than 6
>> months - generally it is hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>>
>> Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>>
>> TIA
>> Gill
>>
>
> I have always thought that chiclids having a peeking social order do
> better in groups, so they have someone to peek on ;^). I would think if
> you put another male Ram in the tank, they would play together and
> leave
> the corys alone.
> Just a thought.
>
> --
> Jim Anderson
> ( 8(|) To eMail me, just pull "my_finger"


There's been many times when I added a fish, upsetting their social order
causing one of them into anti-social behaviour, removed the offending
fish and.... nothing changed (chaos remained). It almost always involved
cichlids or gouramis.

There is a finite amount of surface area for the Ram to rule, and the
corys, while occupying that room, were basically sheep, and were accepted
as being moving ornaments which were more trouble than they were worth to
continually move (a cory's memory is measured in nano-seconds, so they
continuously blunder back to where they don't belong).

Enter loaches, who are not going to take cr*p from some little
Apistogramma. Now Mr.Ram is taking it out on the sheep. Remove the
loaches and he *might* settle down again.

Add another Ram, and he might leave the corys alone, but I doubt he will
play nice.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

Marco Schwarz wrote:
> Hi..
>
> [Dutch Ram]
>
> Well, google says a Dutch Ram is a male sheep.
>
> What is a Dutch Ram aquaria-related?
>

LOL - you are lucky to come up with sheep - I remember my embarassment
when I first did a google on them with the kids watching over my
shoulder - lol

Here's a link for you...they are also known as Blue Rams (even more
horror stories on a google search without an appropriate filter - lol)

Add the word "fish" in is my strong advice...

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/other/microgeophagus_ramirezi.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/CichlidPimp/

The last one opens with a pic that is so, so much my fish...little bit
like a punk with the black markings on the fin - even more noticeable
when stalking the bottom dwellers...

[Gill Passman]

Marco Schwarz wrote:
> Hi..
>
> [Dutch Ram]
>
> Well, google says a Dutch Ram is a male sheep.
>
> What is a Dutch Ram aquaria-related?
>

Sorry but you have just given me a horrible picture of a sodden lamb
sitting in an aquarium...now I know Clown Loaches have attitude but the
thought of a baby Clown Loach jumping on the head of a sheep - lol - BTW
having a bad day with people putting strange images into my head but
don't worry about it...

Yuk, just thought of cleaning a filter with all the fur and oils from a
sheep in it....eeekkk...I give up - I'm writing the day off...

Sleep tight and thanks for the thoughts - lol

<g>

Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:04:00 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Marco Schwarz wrote:
>> Hi..
>>
>> [Dutch Ram]
>>
>> Well, google says a Dutch Ram is a male sheep.
>>
>> What is a Dutch Ram aquaria-related?
>>
>
>Sorry but you have just given me a horrible picture of a sodden lamb
>sitting in an aquarium...now I know Clown Loaches have attitude but the
>thought of a baby Clown Loach jumping on the head of a sheep - lol - BTW
>having a bad day with people putting strange images into my head but
>don't worry about it...
>
>Yuk, just thought of cleaning a filter with all the fur and oils from a
>sheep in it....eeekkk...I give up - I'm writing the day off...
>
>Sleep tight and thanks for the thoughts - lol
>
><g>
>
>Gill

Ummm, Gill - before you count sheep to go to sleep, remember they're
not just any old sheep, they're uncastrated male sheep.

Night night.

-- Mr Gardener

[Jim Anderson]

In article >,
says...
>
> http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/other/microgeophagus_ramirezi.htm
>

Pix 4 & 5 are Mikrogeophagus altispinosa, the Bolivian Ram.

The Dutch and German Rams refer to where the are line breed as the true
nickname of the wild chiclid is Blue Ram. (unless you go way back to
when they were called the butterfly chiclid)

--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To eMail me, just pull "my_finger"

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Jim Anderson > Spake Unto
All:

>The Dutch and German Rams refer to where the are line breed as the true
>nickname of the wild chiclid is Blue Ram. (unless you go way back to
>when they were called the butterfly chiclid)

AFAIK dutch, german and blue rams are all the same thing: the standard
ram. All three names are unfortunate, as all three suggest they're
names of breeds or morphs. Simply calling it "ram" or, indeed,
butterfly cichlid, would be better.

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Jim Anderson" > wrote in message
> et...
>
>>In article >,
says...
>>
>>>Hi All,
>>>
>>>Just interested in getting some ideas....
>>>
>>>I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen. It's "normal" occupants are 2
>>>Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 4 Rummy Nose tetras, 4 Julli cories and a
>>>Dutch Ram....everything was fine - a little bit of posturing between
>>>the
>>>male gourami and the ram but nothing to write home about. The cories
>>>came out happily and rummaged around and held those "corie type
>>>meetings" and THEN....I put 3 Clown Loaches in there - it's a
>>>temporary
>>>thing (they have a nice big tank to go to) but there was a snail
>>>problem
>>>and local stock of Clowns haven't been the greatest recently so I
>>>figured treating them (if I needed to) in the small tank would be
>>>easier
>>>than in one of the larger ones...
>>>
>>>A few hours after putting in the Clowns...Mr Ram decided to put the
>>>alph
>>>a Clown in his place...he followed him, butted him etc. Mr Clown
>>>fought
>>>back by hurling himself at the Ram and firmly pinning him down to the
>>>substrate by sitting on his head - lol. No injuries to either fish
>>>thankfully...
>>>
>>>Now the issue since then is that the Ram is on a mission against any
>>>"bottom dwelling" fish...the Clowns pretty much act in a couldn't care
>>>less type of Clown way but the Cories are getting really timid - I
>>>hardly see them now...
>>>
>>>So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta against the
>>>lower level fish? The Clowns are moving anyway in a couple of weeks
>>>but
>>>should I also move the cories? (I like the cories being in there) Is
>>>there anyway I can change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him
>>>a
>>>female Ram to distract him? I don't want to move the Ram as he is the
>>>first one that I have ever owned that has survived for more than 6
>>>months - generally it is hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>>>
>>>Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>>>
>>>TIA
>>>Gill
>>>
>>
>>I have always thought that chiclids having a peeking social order do
>>better in groups, so they have someone to peek on ;^). I would think if
>>you put another male Ram in the tank, they would play together and
>>leave
>>the corys alone.
>>Just a thought.
>>
>>--
>>Jim Anderson
>>( 8(|) To eMail me, just pull "my_finger"
>
>
>
> There's been many times when I added a fish, upsetting their social order
> causing one of them into anti-social behaviour, removed the offending
> fish and.... nothing changed (chaos remained). It almost always involved
> cichlids or gouramis.
>
> There is a finite amount of surface area for the Ram to rule, and the
> corys, while occupying that room, were basically sheep, and were accepted
> as being moving ornaments which were more trouble than they were worth to
> continually move (a cory's memory is measured in nano-seconds, so they
> continuously blunder back to where they don't belong).
>
> Enter loaches, who are not going to take cr*p from some little
> Apistogramma. Now Mr.Ram is taking it out on the sheep. Remove the
> loaches and he *might* settle down again.
>
> Add another Ram, and he might leave the corys alone, but I doubt he will
> play nice.

I discounted adding another Ram, certainly another male, on the grounds
that I didn't think 15 galls was big enough if there were territorial
issues...might see if I can find a female once the Clowns move out...I
guess at the very worst all I'd have to do is rehouse her if it goes
wrong...

thanks
Gill

[Gill Passman]

Jim Anderson wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>Just interested in getting some ideas....
>>
>>I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen. It's "normal" occupants are 2
>>Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 4 Rummy Nose tetras, 4 Julli cories and a
>>Dutch Ram....everything was fine - a little bit of posturing between the
>>male gourami and the ram but nothing to write home about. The cories
>>came out happily and rummaged around and held those "corie type
>>meetings" and THEN....I put 3 Clown Loaches in there - it's a temporary
>>thing (they have a nice big tank to go to) but there was a snail problem
>>and local stock of Clowns haven't been the greatest recently so I
>>figured treating them (if I needed to) in the small tank would be easier
>>than in one of the larger ones...
>>
>>A few hours after putting in the Clowns...Mr Ram decided to put the alph
>>a Clown in his place...he followed him, butted him etc. Mr Clown fought
>>back by hurling himself at the Ram and firmly pinning him down to the
>>substrate by sitting on his head - lol. No injuries to either fish
>>thankfully...
>>
>>Now the issue since then is that the Ram is on a mission against any
>>"bottom dwelling" fish...the Clowns pretty much act in a couldn't care
>>less type of Clown way but the Cories are getting really timid - I
>>hardly see them now...
>>
>>So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta against the
>>lower level fish? The Clowns are moving anyway in a couple of weeks but
>>should I also move the cories? (I like the cories being in there) Is
>>there anyway I can change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
>>female Ram to distract him? I don't want to move the Ram as he is the
>>first one that I have ever owned that has survived for more than 6
>>months - generally it is hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>>
>>Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>>
>>TIA
>>Gill
>>
>
>
> I have always thought that chiclids having a peeking social order do
> better in groups, so they have someone to peek on ;^). I would think if
> you put another male Ram in the tank, they would play together and leave
> the corys alone.
> Just a thought.
>

You are right about the pecking order thing...I have a tank of Mbunas
:-). Right now the Cories are down at the bottom...

I initially purchased three Rams (1M/2F) but the two females died soon
after I got them (got credit from the LFS). One concern with adding
another male is the actual tank size (15 gall). Although there are
plenty of hiding places I would worry about the size of available
territory if I was accomodating two male rams (along with the dwarf
gouramis). A female might be an option though...

Thanks
Gill

[Gill Passman]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly Jim Anderson > Spake Unto
> All:
>
>
>>The Dutch and German Rams refer to where the are line breed as the true
>>nickname of the wild chiclid is Blue Ram. (unless you go way back to
>>when they were called the butterfly chiclid)
>
>
> AFAIK dutch, german and blue rams are all the same thing: the standard
> ram. All three names are unfortunate, as all three suggest they're
> names of breeds or morphs. Simply calling it "ram" or, indeed,
> butterfly cichlid, would be better.
>
>
You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
the night before - lol

Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't work...

Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....

Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>the night before - lol

If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.

>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't work...

They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50. Although
hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.

>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....

Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.

>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)

Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>
>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>the night before - lol
>>
>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>
>>
>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't work...
>>
>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50. Although
>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>
>>
>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>
>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>
>>
>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>
>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>
>
> Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
> of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
> and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
> darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
> named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
> Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
> fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
> will help me at this point.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm

(and there is no doubt that that is my guy)

I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names
for fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning
the scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids
as an example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is
another man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local
place's Pygmy Sucker is another local place's oto...

I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could
only track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol

Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the
poor cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I
think - Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now
the cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..

Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:01:22 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>>the night before - lol
>>>
>>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't work...
>>>
>>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50. Although
>>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>>
>>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>>
>>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
>> of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
>> and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
>> darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
>> named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
>> Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
>> fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
>> will help me at this point.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
>Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
>quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-
>
>http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm
>
>(and there is no doubt that that is my guy)
>
>I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names
>for fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning
>the scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids
>as an example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is
>another man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local
>place's Pygmy Sucker is another local place's oto...
>
>I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could
>only track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol
>
>Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the
>poor cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I
>think - Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now
>the cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
>re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..
>
>Gill

Nice fish. Too bad the photographer forgot to turn the lights on.

-- Mr Gardener

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> LOL - you are lucky to come up with sheep - I remember my
> embarassment when I first did a google on them with the
> kids watching over my shoulder - lol

:-)

> Here's a link for you...

Thanks.

We decide between

Mikrogeophagus altispinosus = Bolivianischer
Schmetterlingsbuntbarsch (means as much as "Bolivian
Butterfly Cichlid")

and

Mikrogeophagus ramirezi = Schmetterlingsbuntbarsch (means as
much as "Butterfly Cichlid")

You mean (as much as I understand) M. ramirezi. Great fish!

cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen.

Standard 60/30/30cm?

Mine (1m/1f) in the 80s lived in a planted 100cm tank
together with young Laetacara curviceps (1m/1f) and some
life bearers.

> So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta
> against the lower level fish?

Does it also follow them into holes, under roots or stones?

> Is there anyway I can
> change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
> female Ram to distract him?

I'm afraid they might start breeding.

> I don't want to move the Ram
> as he is the first one that I have ever owned that has
> survived for more than 6 months - generally it is
> hours/days or a few weeks at most...
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated

The Rams of the early 80s I knew were "softies". I used
filtered rain and snow water mixed with drinking water (tap
water). Mine lived ~ two years.

--
cu
Marco

[Gill Passman]

Marco Schwarz wrote:
> Hi..
>
>
>>I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen.
>
>
> Standard 60/30/30cm?
>
> Mine (1m/1f) in the 80s lived in a planted 100cm tank
> together with young Laetacara curviceps (1m/1f) and some
> life bearers.
>
>
>>So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta
>>against the lower level fish?
>
>
> Does it also follow them into holes, under roots or stones?
>
>
>>Is there anyway I can
>>change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
>>female Ram to distract him?
>
>
> I'm afraid they might start breeding.
>
>
>>I don't want to move the Ram
>>as he is the first one that I have ever owned that has
>>survived for more than 6 months - generally it is
>>hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>>Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>
>
> The Rams of the early 80s I knew were "softies". I used
> filtered rain and snow water mixed with drinking water (tap
> water). Mine lived ~ two years.
>

It is the hard water, I believe, that has accounted for my mixed
fortunes with Rams..even though the LFS claimed they were fully
acclimatized - they actually have some in stock now that have been there
a good month or more...

He doesn't quite get under the driftwood with them but stands guard over
it waiting for them to peek their noses out...he also attempts to gravel
vac the bottom for food rather than surface feed as I would expect..

Tank is 90 cm long...

They might breed but I don't think that the conditions in terms of water
are optimum for this - might be wrong though and it wouldn't be any
great issue if they did...

Thanks
Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:09:33 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Marco Schwarz wrote:
>> Hi..
>>
>>
>>>I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen.
>>
>>
>> Standard 60/30/30cm?
>>
>> Mine (1m/1f) in the 80s lived in a planted 100cm tank
>> together with young Laetacara curviceps (1m/1f) and some
>> life bearers.
>>
>>
>>>So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta
>>>against the lower level fish?
>>
>>
>> Does it also follow them into holes, under roots or stones?
>>
>>
>>>Is there anyway I can
>>>change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
>>>female Ram to distract him?
>>
>>
>> I'm afraid they might start breeding.
>>
>>
>>>I don't want to move the Ram
>>>as he is the first one that I have ever owned that has
>>>survived for more than 6 months - generally it is
>>>hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>>>Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>>
>>
>> The Rams of the early 80s I knew were "softies". I used
>> filtered rain and snow water mixed with drinking water (tap
>> water). Mine lived ~ two years.
>>
>
>It is the hard water, I believe, that has accounted for my mixed
>fortunes with Rams..even though the LFS claimed they were fully
>acclimatized - they actually have some in stock now that have been there
>a good month or more...
>
>He doesn't quite get under the driftwood with them but stands guard over
>it waiting for them to peek their noses out...he also attempts to gravel
>vac the bottom for food rather than surface feed as I would expect..
>
>Tank is 90 cm long...
>
>They might breed but I don't think that the conditions in terms of water
>are optimum for this - might be wrong though and it wouldn't be any
>great issue if they did...
>
>Thanks
>Gill

My lfs mentioned something about how the major suppliers (fish
farmers) are all using moderately hard water for all of their breeding
in order for their fish to be more easily acclimated to the end
buyer's tank conditions. Is there anything to this? Or is he full of
hooey. Is there such a thing as "average end buyer water conditions?"

-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:51:25 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
> wrote:

>Thusly Marco Schwarz > Spake Unto All:
>
>>> I don't want to move the Ram
>>> as he is the first one that I have ever owned that has
>>> survived for more than 6 months - generally it is
>>> hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>
>>The Rams of the early 80s I knew were "softies". I used
>>filtered rain and snow water mixed with drinking water (tap
>>water). Mine lived ~ two years.
>
>Rams are extremely short-lived fish; frankly I suspect they're really
>annual fish. The number of rams surviving for significantly more than
>one year are probably easily counted (and according to fishaltersliste
>the oldest known ram lived for just 3 years... Compare that to 10 for
>a neon tetra!).
>
I just read an article in the newest TFH about fish aging that said
the Cardinal Tetra in the wild has an average life span of one year.
The live, they spawn once, they day. But captive Cardinals can live
for a few years, with many spawnings. So, can the tank environment be
manipulated in a similar fashion to lengthen the lives of Rams - the
two fish in question come from similar natural conditions.

-- Mr Gardener

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Rams are extremely short-lived fish

Short living fish.

; frankly I suspect
> they're really annual fish.

Sorry, but they aren't annual fish.

> The number of rams surviving
> for significantly more than one year are probably easily
> counted (and according to fishaltersliste the oldest known
> ram lived for just 3 years...

Depending on stress, food, tank size, water parameters etc..

http://www.aquarium-bbs.de/fisch/alter/fa-m.htm

Manfred is indeed a serious fish keeper and an excellent
advisor.

--
cu
Marco

[Richard Sexton]

>My lfs mentioned something about how the major suppliers (fish
>farmers) are all using moderately hard water for all of their breeding
>in order for their fish to be more easily acclimated to the end
>buyer's tank conditions. Is there anything to this? Or is he full of
>hooey. Is there such a thing as "average end buyer water conditions?"

yes and no.

if fish can reproduce in hard water is is the best thing t do for
a number of reasons. but fish from soft water will not preproduce
peoprly. my understanding is calcium (and other) ions attach
to the egg and prevent the sperm from fertilizing it.

you won't breed cardinals or neons in hard water for example;
many killies are the same way (although many are not).


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mean_Chlorine > wrote:
>Thusly Marco Schwarz > Spake Unto All:
>
>>> I don't want to move the Ram
>>> as he is the first one that I have ever owned that has
>>> survived for more than 6 months - generally it is
>>> hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>
>>The Rams of the early 80s I knew were "softies". I used
>>filtered rain and snow water mixed with drinking water (tap
>>water). Mine lived ~ two years.
>
>Rams are extremely short-lived fish; frankly I suspect they're really
>annual fish. The number of rams surviving for significantly more than
>one year are probably easily counted (and according to fishaltersliste
>the oldest known ram lived for just 3 years... Compare that to 10 for
>a neon tetra!).

There's a good article in the Mar/06 TFH that talks about fish againg
and they make the point that cardinals are pretty much annual fish in
the wild but can live up to 3X longer in aquaria. In the wild they're
pretty much spent after one season and it's considered unlikely they
breed more than one time.

The article also points out that apart from salmon and "almost all"
(this is wrong, try "a few") killifish, fish themselevs have no
fixed lifespan and that the higher the temperature the shorter
they live. And even the "a few" is wrong; I've seen 3 year old
"true annual" killifish.



--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Marco Schwarz > wrote:
>Hi..
>
>> Rams are extremely short-lived fish
>
>Short living fish.
>
>; frankly I suspect
>> they're really annual fish.
>
>Sorry, but they aren't annual fish.

Cynolebias nigripinnis is used in laboratory studies
because of it's predictable aging pattern.

All "south american annual" killifish have their
biotopes dry up at the end of the season. They
exist as eggs is diapause for up to 8 mos in the wild.

Some can live longer in aquaria, but not much; althoiugh
individual exceptions jave been known to occur from time
to time.

Nobody will touch a southamerican annual older than a year,
the chances of getting good eggs are slim to none.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>>the night before - lol
>>>
>>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't
>>>>work...
>>>
>>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50.
>>>Although
>>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>>
>>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>>
>>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
>> of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
>> and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
>> darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
>> named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
>> Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
>> fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
>> will help me at this point. -- Mr Gardener
>
> I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
> Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
> quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-
>
> http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm
>
> (and there is no doubt that that is my guy)
>
> I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names for
> fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning the
> scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids as an
> example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is another
> man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local place's Pygmy
> Sucker is another local place's oto...
>
> I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could only
> track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol
>
> Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the poor
> cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I think -
> Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now the
> cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
> re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..
>
> Gill


If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end (like
a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and defend
it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side. Then
if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The ram
will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>>>the night before - lol
>>>>
>>>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't
>>>>>work...
>>>>
>>>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50.
>>>>Although
>>>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>>>
>>>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>>>
>>>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
>>> of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
>>> and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
>>> darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
>>> named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
>>> Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
>>> fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
>>> will help me at this point. -- Mr Gardener
>>
>> I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
>> Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
>> quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-
>>
>> http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm
>>
>> (and there is no doubt that that is my guy)
>>
>> I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names for
>> fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning the
>> scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids as an
>> example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is another
>> man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local place's Pygmy
>> Sucker is another local place's oto...
>>
>> I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could only
>> track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol
>>
>> Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the poor
>> cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I think -
>> Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now the
>> cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
>> re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..
>>
>> Gill
>
>
>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end (like
>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and defend
>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side. Then
>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The ram
>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.

This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
and the ram is the rigid enforcer.

-- Mr Gardener

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Mr. Gardener > Spake Unto All:

>My lfs mentioned something about how the major suppliers (fish
>farmers) are all using moderately hard water for all of their breeding
>in order for their fish to be more easily acclimated to the end
>buyer's tank conditions. Is there anything to this?

The breeders and the wholesellers simply use whatever water is
available cheaply - ie local stream/well/tap water. For some species
(e.g. neons) they'll use RO water for the actual breeding, as the eggs
may otherwise not be fertile, but the growout is done in whatever
water is available. Neons are sometimes grown out in concrete tubs,
for instance, discus breeders frequently use tapwater which has a pH
of about 8, and I know of at least one malawi breeder who breeds his
fish in ponds with extremely soft water and a pH of about 6.5 (because
that's what the stream on his property's got).

That fish really don't care about pH as long as it's over 6.5 and
below 9, except occasionally for their breeding (either as a trigger
or because the egg membrane becomes impermeable to the sperm), is one
of the better kept secrets of aquaristics.

Well, actually it's not a secret at all, it's just that people refuse
to believe it.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Mr. Gardener > Spake Unto All:

>I just read an article in the newest TFH about fish aging that said
>the Cardinal Tetra in the wild has an average life span of one year.

Quite possibly, if we're talking _average_. In context _maximum_ age
is more interesting, as it's a small fish at the bottom of the
foodchain (ie it makes lots of babies and gets predated a lot).

>The live, they spawn once, they day.

Pretty sure that's not accurate. It's probably more accurate to say
that the vast majority of them never get to spawn even once, but my
guess is that those which do reach maturity likely live for several
years. That's a common enough pattern among species like this.

> But captive Cardinals can live for a few years, with many spawnings.

Again, Fischaltersliste has cardinals down for a 12 year lifespan in
aquarium, which is quite decent for a fish of that size, and 10 years
isn't horribly rare (I personally know people with 10 year old
cardinals). It's not a short-lived fish, although most probably think
of cardinals as being cheap & expendable.

> So, can the tank environment be
>manipulated in a similar fashion to lengthen the lives of Rams - the
>two fish in question come from similar natural conditions.

Well, if you starved the rams, and kept them in as cold water as
they'll tolerate (somewhere around 15 celsius, most likely), you'll
lower their metabolism and extend their lifespans significantly - but
you could do the same with cardinals, so the relative difference
probably wouldn't change. Rams simply are short-lived fish.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>There's a good article in the Mar/06 TFH that talks about fish againg
>and they make the point that cardinals are pretty much annual fish in
>the wild but can live up to 3X longer in aquaria.

If so, they live up to *12x* longer in aquaria (and like I said, 10
year old cardinals aren't that rare). Doesn't sound like an annual
fish to me.

>The article also points out that apart from salmon and "almost all"
>(this is wrong, try "a few") killifish, fish themselevs have no
>fixed lifespan and that the higher the temperature the shorter
>they live. And even the "a few" is wrong; I've seen 3 year old
>"true annual" killifish.

Without having read the article, I must say this doesn't sound right.
ALL fish live shorter at higher temperature, and longer at lower
temperature, as long as it's within their temperature tolerance range.
A raise in temperature of 10 degrees celsius doubles metabolism,
doubles growth rate, and halves life expectancy; lowering the
temperature has the opposite effect.
You can also extend lifespan somewhat by starving the fish; this too
will slow down their metabolism and hence increase life expectancy.

As far as I know, all fish have limited lifespans. Some invertebrates
and plants are believed to lack determinate lifespans, and some are
believed to have lived for thousands of years, but I know of no single
vertebrate fitting that description.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Marco Schwarz > Spake Unto All:

>> Rams are extremely short-lived fish
>
>Short living fish.
>
>; frankly I suspect
>> they're really annual fish.
>
>Sorry, but they aren't annual fish.

Well, perhaps it's overstating the case a bit to call them annuals,
although my belief is that very few rams in nature ever live to see
their second birthday.

>> The number of rams surviving
>> for significantly more than one year are probably easily
>> counted (and according to fishaltersliste the oldest known
>> ram lived for just 3 years...
>
>Depending on stress, food, tank size, water parameters etc..

Yes, it's a pretty safe bet the vast majority of captive rams don't
even see their *first* birthday.

>http://www.aquarium-bbs.de/fisch/alter/fa-m.htm
>
>Manfred is indeed a serious fish keeper and an excellent
>advisor.

Indeed. And yet the oldest known aquarium-kept ram lived for just 3
years.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:44:49 -0500, Mr. Gardener
> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>>> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>>>>the night before - lol
>>>>>
>>>>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't
>>>>>>work...
>>>>>
>>>>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50.
>>>>>Although
>>>>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>>>>
>>>>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
>>>> of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
>>>> and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
>>>> darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
>>>> named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
>>>> Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
>>>> fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
>>>> will help me at this point. -- Mr Gardener
>>>
>>> I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
>>> Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
>>> quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-
>>>
>>> http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm
>>>
>>> (and there is no doubt that that is my guy)
>>>
>>> I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names for
>>> fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning the
>>> scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids as an
>>> example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is another
>>> man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local place's Pygmy
>>> Sucker is another local place's oto...
>>>
>>> I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could only
>>> track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol
>>>
>>> Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the poor
>>> cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I think -
>>> Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now the
>>> cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
>>> re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..
>>>
>>> Gill
>>
>>
>>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end (like
>>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and defend
>>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side. Then
>>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The ram
>>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
>
>This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
>and the ram is the rigid enforcer.
>
>-- Mr Gardener

But where are the trolls?

-- Mr Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>(Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>>>>the night before - lol
>>>>>
>>>>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't
>>>>>>work...
>>>>>
>>>>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50.
>>>>>Although
>>>>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>>>>
>>>>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
>>>>of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
>>>>and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
>>>>darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
>>>>named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
>>>>Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
>>>>fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
>>>>will help me at this point. -- Mr Gardener
>>>
>>>I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
>>>Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
>>>quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-
>>>
>>>http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm
>>>
>>>(and there is no doubt that that is my guy)
>>>
>>>I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names for
>>>fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning the
>>>scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids as an
>>>example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is another
>>>man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local place's Pygmy
>>>Sucker is another local place's oto...
>>>
>>>I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could only
>>>track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol
>>>
>>>Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the poor
>>>cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I think -
>>>Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now the
>>>cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
>>>re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..
>>>
>>>Gill
>>
>>
>>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end (like
>>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and defend
>>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side. Then
>>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The ram
>>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
>
>
> This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
> and the ram is the rigid enforcer.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Might be true...but it is the cories that are desperate for the
answer...the ram couldn't care less as long as he rules - lol - if you
encourage the ram too much he'll be posting next as to how he can
control the dwarf gouramis <g>

[Gill Passman]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly Marco Schwarz > Spake Unto All:
>
>
>>>Rams are extremely short-lived fish
>>
>>Short living fish.
>>
>>; frankly I suspect
>>
>>>they're really annual fish.
>>
>>Sorry, but they aren't annual fish.
>
>
> Well, perhaps it's overstating the case a bit to call them annuals,
> although my belief is that very few rams in nature ever live to see
> their second birthday.
>
>
>>>The number of rams surviving
>>>for significantly more than one year are probably easily
>>>counted (and according to fishaltersliste the oldest known
>>>ram lived for just 3 years...
>>
>>Depending on stress, food, tank size, water parameters etc..
>
>
> Yes, it's a pretty safe bet the vast majority of captive rams don't
> even see their *first* birthday.
>
>
>>http://www.aquarium-bbs.de/fisch/alter/fa-m.htm
>>
>>Manfred is indeed a serious fish keeper and an excellent
>>advisor.
>
>
> Indeed. And yet the oldest known aquarium-kept ram lived for just 3
> years.

This kind of ties in with my experience (no Rams above 6 months). Maybe
the short lived thing comes from how sensitive they are to most of our
water parameters (hard water and high pH). I'd certainly be interested
to see any studies on this having beaten myself up so many times on the
short life-span of rams (once I get them over the first few weeks of
course)....

Still nonetheless they are a very attractive fish and full of character...

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:44:49 -0500, Mr. Gardener
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>(Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>You are so right here...one name would be best...unfortunately even my
>>>>>>>LFS can't make up their minds what to call them - sometimes I wonder if
>>>>>>>they switch the labels daily depending on which website they've been on
>>>>>>>the night before - lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you say "ram" 99.99% of the world knows what you mean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bolivian rams are certainly not the same...so simply "ram" wouldn't
>>>>>>>work...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They're *Bolivian* rams 50% of the time and "altispinosa" the other 50.
>>>>>>Although
>>>>>>hearing the called "Bolivian rams" is fairly new. and a stupid name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now calling them "Butterfly cichlids" might work if it wasn't for the
>>>>>>>African Butterfly cichlid (Pantodon buchholzi)....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not a cichlid. Nobody would every mistake those for ramirizi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh, why is it all so complicated???? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cause you're not used to it. it aint really.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for getting into this topic. I was away for ten years, and one
>>>>>of the things I discovered on return was that fish called Dutch Rams
>>>>>and German Rams had entered the hobby and all I remembered were the
>>>>>darling little south American rams, ram cichlids, named after a guy
>>>>>named Ramiriz. I was wondering if there were fish discoverers in
>>>>>Holland and Germany also named Ramiriz. Good reason to get to know
>>>>>fish by their scientific names, I guess. But I'm not sure even that
>>>>>will help me at this point. -- Mr Gardener
>>>>
>>>>I've always known them as either Blue/Dutch/German Rams but as Mean
>>>>Chlorine points out they have also be known as Butterfly cichlids - a
>>>>quick google will pull up the ramierezi - see:-
>>>>
>>>>http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/ramcich.htm
>>>>
>>>>(and there is no doubt that that is my guy)
>>>>
>>>>I do actually think that there are too many variations in common names for
>>>>fish but don't actually think that I'd want to go as far as learning the
>>>>scientific name - and even that changes if you use Malawi cichlids as an
>>>>example...But it's not going to change - so one man's dutch ram is another
>>>>man's blue ram and so on and so on...a little like one local place's Pygmy
>>>>Sucker is another local place's oto...
>>>>
>>>>I think the main reason we digressed on this was because Marco could only
>>>>track down the Dutch ram name on google as being a male sheep - lol
>>>>
>>>>Anyway my Mr Blue/Dutch/German Ram/Ramierizi is still terrorizing the poor
>>>>cories - the sooner I can make some switches around the better I think -
>>>>Will be starting to set up my new 6 foot tank this afternoon now the
>>>>cabinet is finished - will certainly give plenty of choices for
>>>>re-organising the fish (with the exception of the Mbunas)..
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end (like
>>>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and defend
>>>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side. Then
>>>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The ram
>>>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
>>
>>This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
>>and the ram is the rigid enforcer.
>>
>>-- Mr Gardener
>
>
> But where are the trolls?
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Hmmm...well Mr Ram for all his failings against the cories and attempted
attacks on the Clowns (who I'm sure just laugh at him if fish can) is
actually described as a more peaceful, gentle kind of cichlid...he's got
a problem with them but it's just a little chasing...

The Mbunas in the tank behind my desk limit their response to splashing
and the occassional "flame war" in the tank...they really can get nasty
though...I'd hate to put Mr Ram in with them...he'd soon be put in his
place and sadly I would guess an ex-ram...

So, nope don't think I can accuse any of my cichlids of trolling...just
a little bit of infighting....

Gill

PS None of the cichlids are allowed to watch Lord of the Rings just in
case they get ideas - <g>

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>>> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end
>>(like
>>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and
>>defend
>>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side.
>>Then
>>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The
>>ram
>>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
>
> This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
> and the ram is the rigid enforcer.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Fables?! Do you think we have nothing better to do than make up fish
stories? ;~)
Here is a reprint of a post I wrote a few years ago (because you reminded
me of it, so now you have to suffer through it). It was called The
Survey.
..
..
..
..
A fin in gill (tongue in cheek?) look at what our fish might tell us.
Please excuse what could be considered by some, as frivolous use of this
NG's bandwidth.

********
The annual survey results are in and posted by general category with
consensus by all families.

On filtration: committee chaired by Betta splendens (SFF).
General consensus that filtration techniques continue improving and are
more than adequate. A reminder was issued to the humans that fish cannot
be held responsible for the ever increasing amounts of money being spent
for filtration. Fishes in their natural habitats are perfectly happy in
water containing various types of floating debris, and this
pre-occupation with crystal clear water is a human one.

On food: committee chaired by Astronotus ocellatus (Oscar).
While the quality and diversity of food products continues to rise, there
is no change from previous surveys that more can be used. The resulting
water contamination, increased costs, and higher filtration maintenance
are not our problems.

On lighting (this years hottest topic): committee chaired by Pangio
Kuhlii.
The current trend of increasing the lighting levels for plant growth is
literally causing us headaches. If actions are not taken to provide
adequate shelter from this onslaught, we will be going underground. Many
members such as the Characidae family expressed strong support, but had
reservations regarding the effectiveness of the threat being proposed.

On substrates: committee headed by Corydorous Aeneus (Bronze cat).
Various new substrates are mostly improvements over coarse gravel,
consensus being small and smoother is better, with sand being ideal (the
splinter group pushing for natural earth (mud) has dwindled in size, as
subsequent tank-bred generations fail to recognize this as a natural
material).

On space: committee chaired by Leporinus fasciatus
Recent technological advances in maintaining water quality, have severely
added to the space crunch. A sub-committee has been formed to supply the
humans with a UUN (United Underwater Nations) resolution to replace the
1"/gallon guideline with a scale based on fish length x movement index by
family (previous finding suggested greater fish loads were possible than
current convention, and they were quickly suppressed by the committee on
food).

On habitat: committee chaired by Synodontis nigriventris (upside down
cat).
Report will be delayed till next year as the new chairfish was still
getting his bearings.

On dyed & hybrid fish: committee chaired by Puntius tetrazona (T.barb).
There was particularly venomous criticism and condemnation on this
expanding phenomena. Curiously the younger tetrazonas though it was
'kewl', and the Cichlidaes had no comment on the Parrotfish (though
significant snickering could be heard in the background).

On heating: committee chaired by Symphysodon discus.
There has been an alarming trend to reduce temperature to save costs. We
want more. The Lepomis family (sunfish) were later seen, taking the
chairfish away.

On habitat: committee chaired by Carnegiella marthae (Hatchetfish).
There exists a significant human population who still find it necessary
to be sticking their hands in on a regular basis, purportedly for
cleaning decorating, planting, etc. We are in unanimous agreement that
this interference must be significantly reduced immediately. A
dissenting voice came from Serrasalmus family (piranha) which found all
that activity rather stimulating.

I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)
Regards
NetMax

end
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>(Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end
>>>(like
>>>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and
>>>defend
>>>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side.
>>>Then
>>>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The
>>>ram
>>>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
>>
>>This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
>>and the ram is the rigid enforcer.
>>
>>-- Mr Gardener
>
>
> Fables?! Do you think we have nothing better to do than make up fish
> stories? ;~)
> Here is a reprint of a post I wrote a few years ago (because you reminded
> me of it, so now you have to suffer through it). It was called The
> Survey.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> A fin in gill (tongue in cheek?) look at what our fish might tell us.
> Please excuse what could be considered by some, as frivolous use of this
> NG's bandwidth.
>
> ********
> The annual survey results are in and posted by general category with
> consensus by all families.
>
> On filtration: committee chaired by Betta splendens (SFF).
> General consensus that filtration techniques continue improving and are
> more than adequate. A reminder was issued to the humans that fish cannot
> be held responsible for the ever increasing amounts of money being spent
> for filtration. Fishes in their natural habitats are perfectly happy in
> water containing various types of floating debris, and this
> pre-occupation with crystal clear water is a human one.
>
> On food: committee chaired by Astronotus ocellatus (Oscar).
> While the quality and diversity of food products continues to rise, there
> is no change from previous surveys that more can be used. The resulting
> water contamination, increased costs, and higher filtration maintenance
> are not our problems.
>
> On lighting (this years hottest topic): committee chaired by Pangio
> Kuhlii.
> The current trend of increasing the lighting levels for plant growth is
> literally causing us headaches. If actions are not taken to provide
> adequate shelter from this onslaught, we will be going underground. Many
> members such as the Characidae family expressed strong support, but had
> reservations regarding the effectiveness of the threat being proposed.
>
> On substrates: committee headed by Corydorous Aeneus (Bronze cat).
> Various new substrates are mostly improvements over coarse gravel,
> consensus being small and smoother is better, with sand being ideal (the
> splinter group pushing for natural earth (mud) has dwindled in size, as
> subsequent tank-bred generations fail to recognize this as a natural
> material).
>
> On space: committee chaired by Leporinus fasciatus
> Recent technological advances in maintaining water quality, have severely
> added to the space crunch. A sub-committee has been formed to supply the
> humans with a UUN (United Underwater Nations) resolution to replace the
> 1"/gallon guideline with a scale based on fish length x movement index by
> family (previous finding suggested greater fish loads were possible than
> current convention, and they were quickly suppressed by the committee on
> food).
>
> On habitat: committee chaired by Synodontis nigriventris (upside down
> cat).
> Report will be delayed till next year as the new chairfish was still
> getting his bearings.
>
> On dyed & hybrid fish: committee chaired by Puntius tetrazona (T.barb).
> There was particularly venomous criticism and condemnation on this
> expanding phenomena. Curiously the younger tetrazonas though it was
> 'kewl', and the Cichlidaes had no comment on the Parrotfish (though
> significant snickering could be heard in the background).
>
> On heating: committee chaired by Symphysodon discus.
> There has been an alarming trend to reduce temperature to save costs. We
> want more. The Lepomis family (sunfish) were later seen, taking the
> chairfish away.
>
> On habitat: committee chaired by Carnegiella marthae (Hatchetfish).
> There exists a significant human population who still find it necessary
> to be sticking their hands in on a regular basis, purportedly for
> cleaning decorating, planting, etc. We are in unanimous agreement that
> this interference must be significantly reduced immediately. A
> dissenting voice came from Serrasalmus family (piranha) which found all
> that activity rather stimulating.
>
> I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)
> Regards
> NetMax
>
> end

Well I've mopped up my cup of tea and got a fresh cup - ROFLOL..

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:10:15 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:11:06 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
><snip>
>>>
>>>If you have a large flat stone which you could put in the tank on end
>>>(like
>>>a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and
>>>defend
>>>it, possibly leaving the corys to swim over to the other quieter side.
>>>Then
>>>if you are sneaky, move the stone over an inch or so per day ;~). The
>>>ram
>>>will keep protecting his ever decreasing property.
>>
>> This is a fable, right? I get it. The Corys are the off topic posters
>> and the ram is the rigid enforcer.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>Fables?! Do you think we have nothing better to do than make up fish
>stories? ;~)
>Here is a reprint of a post I wrote a few years ago (because you reminded
>me of it, so now you have to suffer through it). It was called The
>Survey.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>A fin in gill (tongue in cheek?) look at what our fish might tell us.
>Please excuse what could be considered by some, as frivolous use of this
>NG's bandwidth.
>
>********
>The annual survey results are in and posted by general category with
>consensus by all families.
>
>On filtration: committee chaired by Betta splendens (SFF).
>General consensus that filtration techniques continue improving and are
>more than adequate. A reminder was issued to the humans that fish cannot
>be held responsible for the ever increasing amounts of money being spent
>for filtration. Fishes in their natural habitats are perfectly happy in
>water containing various types of floating debris, and this
>pre-occupation with crystal clear water is a human one.
>
>On food: committee chaired by Astronotus ocellatus (Oscar).
>While the quality and diversity of food products continues to rise, there
>is no change from previous surveys that more can be used. The resulting
>water contamination, increased costs, and higher filtration maintenance
>are not our problems.
>
>On lighting (this years hottest topic): committee chaired by Pangio
>Kuhlii.
>The current trend of increasing the lighting levels for plant growth is
>literally causing us headaches. If actions are not taken to provide
>adequate shelter from this onslaught, we will be going underground. Many
>members such as the Characidae family expressed strong support, but had
>reservations regarding the effectiveness of the threat being proposed.
>
>On substrates: committee headed by Corydorous Aeneus (Bronze cat).
>Various new substrates are mostly improvements over coarse gravel,
>consensus being small and smoother is better, with sand being ideal (the
>splinter group pushing for natural earth (mud) has dwindled in size, as
>subsequent tank-bred generations fail to recognize this as a natural
>material).
>
>On space: committee chaired by Leporinus fasciatus
>Recent technological advances in maintaining water quality, have severely
>added to the space crunch. A sub-committee has been formed to supply the
>humans with a UUN (United Underwater Nations) resolution to replace the
>1"/gallon guideline with a scale based on fish length x movement index by
>family (previous finding suggested greater fish loads were possible than
>current convention, and they were quickly suppressed by the committee on
>food).
>
>On habitat: committee chaired by Synodontis nigriventris (upside down
>cat).
>Report will be delayed till next year as the new chairfish was still
>getting his bearings.
>
>On dyed & hybrid fish: committee chaired by Puntius tetrazona (T.barb).
>There was particularly venomous criticism and condemnation on this
>expanding phenomena. Curiously the younger tetrazonas though it was
>'kewl', and the Cichlidaes had no comment on the Parrotfish (though
>significant snickering could be heard in the background).
>
>On heating: committee chaired by Symphysodon discus.
>There has been an alarming trend to reduce temperature to save costs. We
>want more. The Lepomis family (sunfish) were later seen, taking the
>chairfish away.
>
>On habitat: committee chaired by Carnegiella marthae (Hatchetfish).
>There exists a significant human population who still find it necessary
>to be sticking their hands in on a regular basis, purportedly for
>cleaning decorating, planting, etc. We are in unanimous agreement that
>this interference must be significantly reduced immediately. A
>dissenting voice came from Serrasalmus family (piranha) which found all
>that activity rather stimulating.
>
>I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)
>Regards
>NetMax
>
>end

I'm reading this as the sun is beginning to rise; I shall return a bit
later for a second read, since my medications haven't kicked in yet
and I may have missed something.

-- Mr Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just interested in getting some ideas....
>
> I have a 15 gall tank in my kitchen. It's "normal" occupants are 2
> Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 4 Rummy Nose tetras, 4 Julli cories and a
> Dutch Ram....everything was fine - a little bit of posturing between the
> male gourami and the ram but nothing to write home about. The cories
> came out happily and rummaged around and held those "corie type
> meetings" and THEN....I put 3 Clown Loaches in there - it's a temporary
> thing (they have a nice big tank to go to) but there was a snail problem
> and local stock of Clowns haven't been the greatest recently so I
> figured treating them (if I needed to) in the small tank would be easier
> than in one of the larger ones...
>
> A few hours after putting in the Clowns...Mr Ram decided to put the alph
> a Clown in his place...he followed him, butted him etc. Mr Clown fought
> back by hurling himself at the Ram and firmly pinning him down to the
> substrate by sitting on his head - lol. No injuries to either fish
> thankfully...
>
> Now the issue since then is that the Ram is on a mission against any
> "bottom dwelling" fish...the Clowns pretty much act in a couldn't care
> less type of Clown way but the Cories are getting really timid - I
> hardly see them now...
>
> So the question is will my Ram ever get over this vendetta against the
> lower level fish? The Clowns are moving anyway in a couple of weeks but
> should I also move the cories? (I like the cories being in there) Is
> there anyway I can change this behaviour with my Ram? - maybe give him a
> female Ram to distract him? I don't want to move the Ram as he is the
> first one that I have ever owned that has survived for more than 6
> months - generally it is hours/days or a few weeks at most...
>
> Any suggestions greatly appreciated
>
> TIA
> Gill

Just thought I'd give you all an update on the Ram situation - he has
been put in his place by a 3/12 inch Clown Loach....all 4 Clown loaches
(including the shyest of these) along with the 4 cories can now be
spotted out at the front of the tank periodically with no harrassment
from Mr Ram...

Also think I should point out that this is only a temporary home for the
Clown Loaches - they will be moving to their new 136 gall home within
the next week or so.

Thanks to everyone for their ideas
Gill