high ammonia and dead angels

[Kyle]

I have had a 20g aquariam since about thanksgiving... I've followed all
of the instructions, letting it cycle for about 6 weeks with starter
fish, when i started introducing more fish in (about 4 at a time) my
ammonia is still very high... its about 2.0 ( I tested it with the
freshwater master test kit from aqarium pharmaceuticals, inc.).... its
on the edge of being very bad for the tank... One of the fish that I
have put in the tank is an angel... (temp is at 81, i have a bunch of
the plastic plants, gravel and driftwood, i have a bubble wand and i do
a consistant water change every month) The angel lasted 2 days in my
tank and then died... we tried another angel and the same happened....
there are no signs of the dead angels or other fish in the tank as
being ill. I cannot get my ammonia down after doing water changes and
using ammo-lock. I do not want to put another pair of angels in the
tank until the ammonia is down... what should I do?!

[Kyle]

I have not put new fish in the tank because of the ammonia levels. I
feed twice a day and there is no uneaten food on the gravel. I
performed a 25% water change three days ago. I have only added
ammo-lock twice once since the water change. I have 9 fish in my tank
(5 starter fish and 4 others) that have survived... Since the tank is
about 3 months old i figured it would be through with the beginning
cycle... am i wrong?

[NetMax]

>>"Kyle" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>I have had a 20g aquariam since about thanksgiving... I've followed
>>>all
>>> of the instructions, letting it cycle for about 6 weeks with starter
>>> fish, when i started introducing more fish in (about 4 at a time) my
>>> ammonia is still very high... its about 2.0 ( I tested it with the
>>> freshwater master test kit from aqarium pharmaceuticals, inc.)....
>>> its
>>> on the edge of being very bad for the tank... One of the fish that I
>>> have put in the tank is an angel... (temp is at 81, i have a bunch of
>>> the plastic plants, gravel and driftwood, i have a bubble wand and i
>>> do
>>> a consistant water change every month) The angel lasted 2 days in my
>>> tank and then died... we tried another angel and the same
>>> happened....
>>> there are no signs of the dead angels or other fish in the tank as
>>> being ill. I cannot get my ammonia down after doing water changes
>>> and
>>> using ammo-lock. I do not want to put another pair of angels in the
>>> tank until the ammonia is down... what should I do?!
>>
>>
>>1. stop adding fish, they add to your problem and cannot handle the
>>water
>>shock
>>2. complete the cycling (until you have zero ammonia and zero nitrites)
>>3. stop adding ammo-lock (this can perpetuate the natural cycle)
>>4. dilute the ammonia level through aggressive water changes (30% a day
>>if needed)
>>
>>The cycling is completed when the waste processing capability of the
>>tank
>>= the amount of waste the fish produce (ammonia is their waste, mostly
>>released through respiration). This waste processing is done by two
>>types of bacteria (commonly called aerobic nitrifying bacteria) which
>>will take up residence everywhere in the tank (a bio-film which coats
>>everything) but primarily inside the filter media (so don't mess with
>>your filter). Don't overfeed (decaying uneaten fish food releases
>>ammonia) and use your gravel vacuum (organic solids or detritus in the
>>gravel should be removed so it doesn't dissolve into ammonia).
>>
>>Some more info here:
>>http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
>>
>>hth, cheers
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk

"Kyle" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have not put new fish in the tank because of the ammonia levels. I
> feed twice a day and there is no uneaten food on the gravel. I
> performed a 25% water change three days ago. I have only added
> ammo-lock twice once since the water change. I have 9 fish in my tank
> (5 starter fish and 4 others) that have survived... Since the tank is
> about 3 months old i figured it would be through with the beginning
> cycle... am i wrong?


I pasted back the previous posts for continuity. This is important if
you want others to see the data to help you.

What you're doing sounds correct, but you have an ammonia measurement.
You should not be able to detect any ammonia in an established tank. The
ammonia is converted to nitrites and then to nitrates. Zero ammonia and
zero nitrites means it is a cycled tank. If the tank already cycled,
then you have either upset something, or you are seeing a mini-cycle from
increasing the bio-load suddenly, however, a measurement of 2ppm (quite
high) suggests the filter got nuked. Also you have to do water changes
to clear the ammo-lock out. It messes with your readings and your
cycling. I think the method API testers use is to measure NH3 + NH4, and
ammo-lock puts NH3 into an NH4 ammonium ion state (non-toxic but
available for bacteria in theory), so your 2ppm could be much safer than
would appear. Unless you have a tester which measures only NH3 (toxic
ammonia), you will not know what is really happening in there, so follow
the directions 1,2,3 & 4 and you should be fine. Also check your pH.
Anything from 6.8 to 7.8 is fine. Under 6.8 and the situation starts
changing (less bacteria, little NH3). Over 7.8 and maybe Angelfish
should not be your first choice ;~). Patience, it'll settle with water
changes.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Amateur Cichlids]

"Kyle" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have not put new fish in the tank because of the ammonia levels. I
> feed twice a day and there is no uneaten food on the gravel. I
> performed a 25% water change three days ago. I have only added
> ammo-lock twice once since the water change. I have 9 fish in my tank
> (5 starter fish and 4 others) that have survived... Since the tank is
> about 3 months old i figured it would be through with the beginning
> cycle... am i wrong?
>
>

Cycling in a tank doesn't only refer to the start up process as NetMax
eluded to. It's a constant cycle of ammonia to nitrites to nitrates to
plants to rot and decay to ammonia to nitrites, etc, etc, etc

Without plants and natural nitrate loss like you'd see in natural
environments, water changes serve the purpose of removing nitrates.
Drop feeding down to once ever other day until your cycle is stable.
It sounds that you have too many fish in too small an aquarium with too
small a filter. If the bio-load capability isn't enough to keep up with your
fish, the tank will never cycle. There needs to be filter media that gets a
constant flow of oxygenated water over it where the bacteria can grow
happily. This colony needs to be large enough to handle the waste load your
fish is making. This obviously isn't the case in your tank. Make sure
there's no dead fish anywhere, rotting in the drift wood, etc. This will add
to the ammonia levels.
If you get a chance, go to http://www.fishaholics.org and read the cycle
article on our site. If you don't like our site, do a google search on the
nitrogen cycle. Reading as many and as much as possible will help you
understand more than just the basics of the process.
I hope your ammonia problems get under control with minimal fish loss.
Good luck,
Tim

[erik w]

Amateur Cichlids wrote:
> "Kyle" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>I have not put new fish in the tank because of the ammonia levels. I
>>feed twice a day and there is no uneaten food on the gravel. I
>>performed a 25% water change three days ago. I have only added
>>ammo-lock twice once since the water change. I have 9 fish in my tank
>>(5 starter fish and 4 others) that have survived... Since the tank is
>>about 3 months old i figured it would be through with the beginning
>>cycle... am i wrong?
>>
>>
>
>
> Cycling in a tank doesn't only refer to the start up process as NetMax
> eluded to. It's a constant cycle of ammonia to nitrites to nitrates to
> plants to rot and decay to ammonia to nitrites, etc, etc, etc
>
> Without plants and natural nitrate loss like you'd see in natural
> environments, water changes serve the purpose of removing nitrates.
> Drop feeding down to once ever other day until your cycle is stable.
> It sounds that you have too many fish in too small an aquarium with too
> small a filter. If the bio-load capability isn't enough to keep up with your
> fish, the tank will never cycle. There needs to be filter media that gets a
> constant flow of oxygenated water over it where the bacteria can grow
> happily. This colony needs to be large enough to handle the waste load your
> fish is making. This obviously isn't the case in your tank. Make sure
> there's no dead fish anywhere, rotting in the drift wood, etc. This will add
> to the ammonia levels.
> If you get a chance, go to http://www.fishaholics.org and read the cycle
> article on our site. If you don't like our site, do a google search on the
> nitrogen cycle. Reading as many and as much as possible will help you
> understand more than just the basics of the process.
> I hope your ammonia problems get under control with minimal fish loss.
> Good luck,
> Tim
>
>


I had a 75 ga tank that seemed to take 2 years to set up. I tried fish
several times and every time it ended poorly. I eventually got tired of
it and let my mom put what she wanted into it. She put a community tank
together with angles and other small fish like guppies. The fish were
added slowly and she actually got the angels to breed twice. Then we
lost power for a month due to weather and had to find homes for the
survivors. This tank had no water changes for over half a year, only
water added. At some point I went to get the water test mostly because
everyone talks about water changes being important and I had figured
that the tank must have really bad water. Turns out I had great water
conditions, no trace of ammonia. I decide to go ahead and change 20% of
the water afterwards. After the change I had the water tested and ended
up with ph becoming really acidic. So I had to purchase supplies to
correct it.

FYI. I DO NOT SUGGEST THE ACT OF NOT CHANGING THE WATER.

My current procedure for setting up a tank is to just buy 20 feeder fish
( remember I have a 75 ga tank ). Waiting until the fish stop dieing
then place the fish I want in the tank. I usually end up with 2-3
remaining. During the process I add a product called cycle at different
times. I also will not replace gravel from an established tank without
believing that the cycle process has to be restarted. I have moved my
tank and had almost no cycle time when I have removed all but the water
at gravel level.


When you start an aquarium you have a sterile environment This is bad.
You need a environment that contains all the bacteria and other
organisms that break down waste. It is actually the same type of process
that takes place in you septic tank or towns waste treatment facility

Anyway, you might try:

adding a product like cycle. Yes, it is called Cycle. It is supposed to
decrease the cycle time by adding beneficial bacteria. There are also
other products that do similar things but you want to add beneficial
bacteria.

taking gravel from an already established tank and place it in your
tank. If you want to keep the gravel separate just leave it in a bowl or
something. The organisms will spreed through the environment either way.

Filters are very important for a tank and which you use is important.
I use one of the filters that hang on the back of the tank, It has a
bio-wheel but I don't really have any evidence that the bio-wheel
matters. When we had the perfect water conditions we were using a
whisper brand filter with no bio-wheel. Only reason we do not currently
use the whisper is that the impeller broke and everyone raves over the
bio-wheels so I ended up getting one with a bio-wheel. I think it may
just be that people like to see things move.

I also suspect that you are cleaning your gravel with each water change.
Cleaning the gravel with each water change removes everything from the
gravel, includeing bacteria. You may want to just change the water,
leave the gravel alone and only remove visible waste with the water. It
is my observation that most the bacterial live in the gravel or filter.
Being that I have to replace the cartridges and the only media that
stays is a bio-wheel I would think that the bacteria live in the gravel.


One last thing is that angels are more sensitive to water conditions
than most fish. You might start with a hardier fish. If you can keep
angels you probibly have good water conditions.

Please let me know if this was any help.

Erik W.

[default]

erik w wrote:

> This tank had no water changes for over half a year, only
> water added. At some point I went to get the water test mostly because
> everyone talks about water changes being important and I had figured
> that the tank must have really bad water. Turns out I had great water
> conditions, no trace of ammonia. I decide to go ahead and change 20% of
> the water afterwards. After the change I had the water tested and ended
> up with ph becoming really acidic. So I had to purchase supplies to
> correct it.

and this...

> I also suspect that you are cleaning your gravel with each water change.
> Cleaning the gravel with each water change removes everything from the
> gravel, includeing bacteria.

Hey Eric, Thanks for taking the time to post. All of us know a little
about fish, and none of us know everything so it's great to hear from
everybody. Since the original poster is seemingly having some newbie
problems, I felt pretty strongly about clarifying some of the above
statements. The bit about the water being perfect because it had no
ammonia... All the ammonia test does if verify that there is no
ammonia, which is an indication that the tank has cycled, that's all.
After 6 months with no water changes, depending on fish load and plant
mass, the nitrate readings for that water were probably over 200ppm.
Read up on "old tank syndrome" and you may find an explanation for the
pH crash too.

The other bit about the gravel cleaning... A simple gravel vac will
not remove the bacteria. Using a gravel vac will remove junk, but not
the bacteria. The bacteria is firmly stuck to all surfaces of the
setup. When I was a kid I used to put the fish in the big mixing bowl
and clean the tank in the bath tub. I'd wash the gravel and tank with
hot soapy water. Now THAT will kill all the beneficial bacteria!
Gosh, now a wonder how I ever kept a fish beyond a few months. Hmmmmm,
looking back.......

sincerly,
steve

[erik w]

default wrote:
> erik w wrote:
>
>
>>This tank had no water changes for over half a year, only
>>water added. At some point I went to get the water test mostly because
>>everyone talks about water changes being important and I had figured
>>that the tank must have really bad water. Turns out I had great water
>>conditions, no trace of ammonia. I decide to go ahead and change 20% of
>>the water afterwards. After the change I had the water tested and ended
>>up with ph becoming really acidic. So I had to purchase supplies to
>>correct it.
>
>
> and this...
>
>
>>I also suspect that you are cleaning your gravel with each water change.
>>Cleaning the gravel with each water change removes everything from the
>>gravel, includeing bacteria.
>
>
> Hey Eric, Thanks for taking the time to post. All of us know a little
> about fish, and none of us know everything so it's great to hear from
> everybody. Since the original poster is seemingly having some newbie
> problems, I felt pretty strongly about clarifying some of the above
> statements. The bit about the water being perfect because it had no
> ammonia... All the ammonia test does if verify that there is no
> ammonia, which is an indication that the tank has cycled, that's all.
> After 6 months with no water changes, depending on fish load and plant
> mass, the nitrate readings for that water were probably over 200ppm.
> Read up on "old tank syndrome" and you may find an explanation for the
> pH crash too.
>
> The other bit about the gravel cleaning... A simple gravel vac will
> not remove the bacteria. Using a gravel vac will remove junk, but not
> the bacteria. The bacteria is firmly stuck to all surfaces of the
> setup. When I was a kid I used to put the fish in the big mixing bowl
> and clean the tank in the bath tub. I'd wash the gravel and tank with
> hot soapy water. Now THAT will kill all the beneficial bacteria!
> Gosh, now a wonder how I ever kept a fish beyond a few months. Hmmmmm,
> looking back.......
>
> sincerly,
> steve


I would not argue against the idea of bacteria adhering to the surface
and not being removed with gravel cleaning. I should have mentioned that
I was not sure of it was the case. Guess I went on about too much and
did not remember include the phrase "might be". Sorry.

The water test was actually performed at a local pet store where they
said they would test for anything wrong with the water. It was the store
that test the first time and second. I am not actually sure of
everything they tested for but I believe that they would have tested for
nitrate. I was at the time concerned most about the ammonia and so I
specifically asked. The pet store also said something about the tap
water in the area being acidic at the time. I don't really know if they
knew it or they were making it up. I don't think 20% water change would
make a large difference in ph, especially if it was allowed to be
classified drinkable. So, yes, I suspect that you are correct in saying
it would be old tank syndrome.


Erik

[scottmilsson]

I accept not put new angle in the catch basin because of the ammonia levels. I feed alert a day and there is no extra aliment on the gravel. I performed a 25% baptize change three canicule ago. I accept alone added ammo-lock alert already back the baptize change.