Stuck In Mid Cycle

[Mr. Gardener]

I've been cycling a 15 gallon tank for about two weeks, and I seem to
be stuck in mid cycle. I've never cycled without fish before, and I
was in no hurry to get this tank going, so I just moved a handful of
ripe gravel from an old tank into it and added a couple of big bushes
of water sprite. I figured the old gravel and the inevitable dead
plant parts would give me the ammonia to get started, and I was right.
The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
several days. I am wondering if I need more ammonia in there to push
the nitrites into the nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.
It's too late, I think to add fish for their ammonia, they wouldn't
like the total nitrite immersion; yes, I'm doing daily 40-50% water
changes with no effect. Where do I go from here? Why am I here? Is
anybody here? Does anybody really know what time it is?

-- Mr Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> I've been cycling a 15 gallon tank for about two weeks, and I seem to
> be stuck in mid cycle. I've never cycled without fish before, and I
> was in no hurry to get this tank going, so I just moved a handful of
> ripe gravel from an old tank into it and added a couple of big bushes
> of water sprite. I figured the old gravel and the inevitable dead
> plant parts would give me the ammonia to get started, and I was right.
> The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
> off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
> while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
> water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
> and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
> several days. I am wondering if I need more ammonia in there to push
> the nitrites into the nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.
> It's too late, I think to add fish for their ammonia, they wouldn't
> like the total nitrite immersion; yes, I'm doing daily 40-50% water
> changes with no effect. Where do I go from here? Why am I here? Is
> anybody here? Does anybody really know what time it is?
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Hello Mr Gardener.

If this is your second tank you don't cycle (well you do but not in the
same way) - you seed it from the other tank...(got 7 and 8th on it's
way) - add fish and away you go...now the clever bit is the seeding, the
timing and the monitoring...

Basically the best way is to hang the filter planned for your new tank
in your established tank for a week or so...if you can't do this then
move part of the filter medium from the established filter into the new
filter (I usually do this a few hours after adding the fish). I then tak
e substrate (if it doesn't match I stick it in a toe of a stocking and
ie it) and put it in the new tank...move across some ornaments and
plants if you can.

So, now you have fish in both tanks with bacteria filled media...monitor
both tanks - the new one for obvious reasons..the source tank just in
case you have depleted the bacteria too much (unlikely but better safe
than sorry). If you start seeing ammonia or nitrites in the new tank add
more substrate from the old tank or squeeze the filter medium direct
into the new tank water....works for me <g>


Make sure that you do not overload the new tank with fish...I always
follow the same guidelines that I would if I was cycling with fish but
obviously they get less stress

Gill

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> I've been cycling a 15 gallon tank for about two weeks, and I seem to
> be stuck in mid cycle. I've never cycled without fish before, and I
> was in no hurry to get this tank going, so I just moved a handful of
> ripe gravel from an old tank into it and added a couple of big bushes
> of water sprite. I figured the old gravel and the inevitable dead
> plant parts would give me the ammonia to get started, and I was right.
> The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
> off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
> while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
> water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
> and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
> several days. I am wondering if I need more ammonia in there to push
> the nitrites into the nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.
> It's too late, I think to add fish for their ammonia, they wouldn't
> like the total nitrite immersion; yes, I'm doing daily 40-50% water
> changes with no effect. Where do I go from here? Why am I here? Is
> anybody here? Does anybody really know what time it is?
>
> -- Mr Gardener


Just impatient. The nitrite stage is the longest, and I don't think you
need more ammonia. Like Gill said, why are you fishless cycling from
scratch? Fwiw, I think it will cycle faster anyways as homes with lots
of tanks would have more nitrifying bacteria in the air (isn't that a
nice thought? ;~) *cough*.

Stick some established filter media in your cycling filter to speed
things up.

What was that next line from Chicago "does anyone really care?". Now
that tune will be stuck in my head! :p
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Gardener]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:33:31 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> I've been cycling a 15 gallon tank for about two weeks, and I seem to
>> be stuck in mid cycle. I've never cycled without fish before, and I
>> was in no hurry to get this tank going, so I just moved a handful of
>> ripe gravel from an old tank into it and added a couple of big bushes
>> of water sprite. I figured the old gravel and the inevitable dead
>> plant parts would give me the ammonia to get started, and I was right.
>> The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
>> off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
>> while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
>> water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
>> and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
>> several days. I am wondering if I need more ammonia in there to push
>> the nitrites into the nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.
>> It's too late, I think to add fish for their ammonia, they wouldn't
>> like the total nitrite immersion; yes, I'm doing daily 40-50% water
>> changes with no effect. Where do I go from here? Why am I here? Is
>> anybody here? Does anybody really know what time it is?
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>
>Just impatient. The nitrite stage is the longest, and I don't think you
>need more ammonia. Like Gill said, why are you fishless cycling from
>scratch? Fwiw, I think it will cycle faster anyways as homes with lots
>of tanks would have more nitrifying bacteria in the air (isn't that a
>nice thought? ;~) *cough*.
>
>Stick some established filter media in your cycling filter to speed
>things up.
>
>What was that next line from Chicago "does anyone really care?". Now
>that tune will be stuck in my head! :p

I forgot to mention, besides the gravel from the seasoned tank, I also
transferred the biosponge from the same tank.

Patience, huh? Well, I'll just put on an old Chicago album while I
wait.

-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 00:00:09 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> I've been cycling a 15 gallon tank for about two weeks, and I seem to
>> be stuck in mid cycle. I've never cycled without fish before, and I
>> was in no hurry to get this tank going, so I just moved a handful of
>> ripe gravel from an old tank into it and added a couple of big bushes
>> of water sprite. I figured the old gravel and the inevitable dead
>> plant parts would give me the ammonia to get started, and I was right.
>> The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
>> off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
>> while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
>> water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
>> and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
>> several days. I am wondering if I need more ammonia in there to push
>> the nitrites into the nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.
>> It's too late, I think to add fish for their ammonia, they wouldn't
>> like the total nitrite immersion; yes, I'm doing daily 40-50% water
>> changes with no effect. Where do I go from here? Why am I here? Is
>> anybody here? Does anybody really know what time it is?
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>Hello Mr Gardener.
>
>If this is your second tank you don't cycle (well you do but not in the
>same way) - you seed it from the other tank...(got 7 and 8th on it's
>way) - add fish and away you go...now the clever bit is the seeding, the
>timing and the monitoring...
>
>Basically the best way is to hang the filter planned for your new tank
>in your established tank for a week or so...if you can't do this then
>move part of the filter medium from the established filter into the new
>filter (I usually do this a few hours after adding the fish). I then tak
>e substrate (if it doesn't match I stick it in a toe of a stocking and
>ie it) and put it in the new tank...move across some ornaments and
>plants if you can.
>
>So, now you have fish in both tanks with bacteria filled media...monitor
>both tanks - the new one for obvious reasons..the source tank just in
>case you have depleted the bacteria too much (unlikely but better safe
>than sorry). If you start seeing ammonia or nitrites in the new tank add
>more substrate from the old tank or squeeze the filter medium direct
>into the new tank water....works for me <g>
>
>
>Make sure that you do not overload the new tank with fish...I always
>follow the same guidelines that I would if I was cycling with fish but
>obviously they get less stress
>
>Gill
>
I did all those things when I started the new tank. Maybe I'll add a
little more gravel and squeeze out a filter sponge from the
established tank. As Net Max suggested, my problem might just be
impatience.

-- Mr Gardener

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I've never cycled
> without fish before, and I was in no hurry to get this
> tank going,

It's interesting, isn't it? Have you also fed your tank
daily increasing?

> I've been here for several days. I am wondering if
> I need more ammonia in there to push the nitrites into the
> nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.

Plants and nitrosomonas & friends need ammonia. Nitrobacter
& friends need nitrite.

> I'm doing daily 40-50% water changes with no effect.

Hmm.., this might remove nitrobacter's food and might
inhibit it's reproduction.

Good luck.

--
cu
Marco

[Mr. Gardener]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:04:10 +0100, Marco Schwarz
> wrote:

>Hi..
>
>> I've never cycled
>> without fish before, and I was in no hurry to get this
>> tank going,
>
>It's interesting, isn't it? Have you also fed your tank
>daily increasing?
>
>> I've been here for several days. I am wondering if
>> I need more ammonia in there to push the nitrites into the
>> nitrate stage, or am I just being impatient.
>
>Plants and nitrosomonas & friends need ammonia. Nitrobacter
>& friends need nitrite.
>
>> I'm doing daily 40-50% water changes with no effect.
>
>Hmm.., this might remove nitrobacter's food and might
>inhibit it's reproduction.
>
>Good luck.

This morning I made the rounds and rinsed the biobags from all of my
established filters into the new filter. Then I did the same, wringing
out the sponges from the other tanks into the new filter. That's five
floss bags and five sponges. When I get out of bed at 5 tomorrow
morning, I will go straight from the coffeepot to the testing kit.

-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:32:03 -0500, Mr. Gardener
> wrote:

>The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
>off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
>while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
>water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
>and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
>several days.

OK. I decided I needed some ammonia to push the cycle along. Yesterday
morning, on first arising, I carried a small cup of liquid to the tank
and poured it in. My wife said, "I know what that is". And I said,
"Yup, an organic gardener has got to do what he's got to do."
This evening my nitrites are nearly zero and my nitrates are beginning
to rise. Ready for fish by the end of the weekend. Maybe tomorrow.

Just call me Nature Boy
-- Mr Gardener

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:32:03 -0500, Mr. Gardener
> > wrote:
>
>>The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
>>off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
>>while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
>>water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
>>and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
>>several days.
>
> OK. I decided I needed some ammonia to push the cycle along. Yesterday
> morning, on first arising, I carried a small cup of liquid to the tank
> and poured it in. My wife said, "I know what that is". And I said,
> "Yup, an organic gardener has got to do what he's got to do."
> This evening my nitrites are nearly zero and my nitrates are beginning
> to rise. Ready for fish by the end of the weekend. Maybe tomorrow.
>
> Just call me Nature Boy
> -- Mr Gardener

Call me sceptical, but I don't think some uric acid (which your
nitrosomonas bacteria will consume) would suddenly cause your
nitrospira/nitrobacters to consume all the nitrites in the water, but
hey, what do I know? My guess is that the event was coincidental, and
the uric acid will cause another ripple of nitrites to go through,
however if the spira spp/bacter are established, the levels might pass
undetected. I've read cases where the continuous presence of ammonia
hinders the spira spp/bacters from becoming established, which is why
adding more ammonia is generally thought to not be helpful when the cycle
'appears' stuck.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:15:26 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:32:03 -0500, Mr. Gardener
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>The ammonia rose slowly and steadily over 3 or 4 days until it spiked
>>>off the scale. In the following days I watched the ammonia subside
>>>while the nitrites worked their way to the top of the scale. And my
>>>water has remained at that point, zero ammonia, over the top nitrites,
>>>and zero nitrates. I'm stuck in my nitrite spike. I've been here for
>>>several days.
>>
>> OK. I decided I needed some ammonia to push the cycle along. Yesterday
>> morning, on first arising, I carried a small cup of liquid to the tank
>> and poured it in. My wife said, "I know what that is". And I said,
>> "Yup, an organic gardener has got to do what he's got to do."
>> This evening my nitrites are nearly zero and my nitrates are beginning
>> to rise. Ready for fish by the end of the weekend. Maybe tomorrow.
>>
>> Just call me Nature Boy
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>Call me sceptical, but I don't think some uric acid (which your
>nitrosomonas bacteria will consume) would suddenly cause your
>nitrospira/nitrobacters to consume all the nitrites in the water, but
>hey, what do I know? My guess is that the event was coincidental, and
>the uric acid will cause another ripple of nitrites to go through,
>however if the spira spp/bacter are established, the levels might pass
>undetected. I've read cases where the continuous presence of ammonia
>hinders the spira spp/bacters from becoming established, which is why
>adding more ammonia is generally thought to not be helpful when the cycle
>'appears' stuck.

Yes - I know it amounted to only a few drops of raw urea and ammonia
and my tank may well have been ready to move to the next level with or
without my personal intervention, but let me have my fantasies. I know
that at worst, I've done no harm. I'll be interested in following my
water testing over the next 24-48 hours to see if I've set off a whole
new cycle. And if I have, then I'll be all the more ready for fish
when it resolves.

-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 00:00:09 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> I've been cycling a 15 gallon tank for about two weeks, and I seem to
>> be stuck in mid cycle. I've never cycled without fish before, and I
>> was in no hurry to get this tank going, so I just moved a handful of
>> ripe gravel from an old tank into it and added a couple of big bushes
>> of water sprite.

Essentially replying to myself, I've trimmed the original considerably
- just wanted to let the world know that my 15 reached cycled status
on Saturday - it was so nice to look at that nitrite vial and see blue
instead of purple. I did a 30% water change and introduced a few very
healthy young corys who were passing time in another tank on Sunday. I
believe it is now Monday, and all occupants appear happy. Among my
tanks I now have 8 active biosponges, so future startups will be much
easier.

-- Mr Gardener