Artemia - indoors and outdoors

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

Several years I've had bowls, tanks, summer ponds and half
dug bath tubes with Artemia salina.

Fascinating species and an excellent fish food! Does anyone
else like to keep them indoors and_or outdoors?
--
cu
Marco

[Koi-Lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
> Several years I've had bowls, tanks, summer ponds and half
> dug bath tubes with Artemia salina.
>
> Fascinating species and an excellent fish food! Does anyone
> else like to keep them indoors and_or outdoors?
============================
I had a 10 gallon tank of them on my side porch one year and fed them
Brewer's yeast and powdered fish food. I had an aerator but no filter on
this tank. They did ok until we had a horrific rain storm. I didn't think
to cover the tank. The fresh water killed them by the time I thought to
check on them. I didn't bother raising anymore after that.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
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[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I had a 10 gallon tank of them on my side porch one year
> and fed them Brewer's yeast and powdered fish food.

I've used them several times for cycling marine tanks, too.
They are _very_ nitrite resistant.

> I had an aerator but no filter on this tank.

Right.

> They did ok until we had a horrific rain
> storm. I didn't think to cover the tank.
> The fresh water killed them by the
> time I thought to check on them.

Hmm.., do you remember the salinity of that tank?
--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Fascinating species and an excellent fish food! Does
> anyone else like to keep them indoors and_or outdoors?

Hmm.., what else (life food) do the other readers here
multiply or feed?
--
cu
Marco

[Koi-Lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
>> I had a 10 gallon tank of them on my side porch one year
>> and fed them Brewer's yeast and powdered fish food.
>
> I've used them several times for cycling marine tanks, too.
> They are _very_ nitrite resistant.
>
>> I had an aerator but no filter on this tank.
>
> Right.
>
>> They did ok until we had a horrific rain
>> storm. I didn't think to cover the tank.
>> The fresh water killed them by the
>> time I thought to check on them.
>
> Hmm.., do you remember the salinity of that tank?
=============================
No, I never made a note of it. I set the tank up and just added fresh water
as it evaporated.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
>> Fascinating species and an excellent fish food! Does
>> anyone else like to keep them indoors and_or outdoors?
>
> Hmm.., what else (life food) do the other readers here
> multiply or feed?
========================
Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at the LFS than raise
their own.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>





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[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at
> the LFS than raise their own.

Hmm.., am I an alien? :-)
--
cu
Marco

[Richard Sexton]

>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at the LFS than raise
>> their own.

Which explains the 25 year legacy of "why is my water green/milky" in this
group.

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[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Marco Schwarz > wrote:
>Hi..
>
>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at
>> the LFS than raise their own.
>
>Hmm.., am I an alien? :-)

Only to the US immigration service. North Amercans buy frozen
and dried food. Culturing live food in more the norm in Europe
(where tanks tend to be crystal clear).



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[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at the LFS than
>>> raise
>>> their own.
>
> Which explains the 25 year legacy of "why is my water green/milky" in this
> group.
===================
Can you explain the connection?
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[Koi-Lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at
>> the LFS than raise their own.
>
> Hmm.., am I an alien? :-)
> --
===================================
Some of us have tried and failed, or couldn't raise enough. For example for
me to raise enough brine shrimp to feed my fish even a few times a week I
would have to have several huge tanks going all the time. I don't have the
space. I tried those water fleas and all they did was breed in the spring,
giving me enough to feed my platys a few times, then they died out. My old
house-mate, another fish nut, tried those white worms that I found
disgusting and smelly.... it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Others may find it is - to each their own. I'd rather buy the frozen
stuff, thaw, rinse and feed.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Which explains the 25 year legacy of "why is my water
> green/milky" in this group.

;-)))
--
cu
Marco

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at the LFS than
>>>> raise
>>>> their own.
>>
>> Which explains the 25 year legacy of "why is my water green/milky" in this
>> group.
>===================
>Can you explain the connection?

Too much food.

Too few water changes.

Try changing 50% of the water every day for a week without doing anything
else. Notice the difference.


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[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>Some of us have tried and failed, or couldn't raise enough. For example for
>me to raise enough brine shrimp to feed my fish even a few times a week I
>would have to have several huge tanks going all the time. I don't have the
>space. I tried those water fleas and all they did was breed in the spring,
>giving me enough to feed my platys a few times, then they died out. My old
>house-mate, another fish nut, tried those white worms that I found
>disgusting and smelly.... it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Brine shrimp have very little or no nutriative value except when freshly
hatched, and I'm talking about within an hour or two of hatching. They're
roughage otherwise. You have to gut load them or use Celco if you expect
your fish to thrive.

If your worm culture smells you're doing something terribly wrong. I've raised
them all my life, and grindal worms. A bad grindal worm culture can smell (overfeeding)
and a far too wet and overfed whiteworm culture can smell a little. But nominally
there is no odour.

> Others may find it is - to each their own. I'd rather buy the frozen
>stuff, thaw, rinse and feed.

And how's that working out for you?

Could you please not add alt.news.freeservers at random ?

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[Philip Lewis]

Marco Schwarz > writes:
>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at
>> the LFS than raise their own.
>Hmm.., am I an alien? :-)

V'q erpxba vs lbh pna ernq guvf lbh ner.

I've had a tank (10 gal pickle jar) outside (for personal amusement)
for several years (4-5?) now. They come back year after year...
Fortunately it hasn't got cold enough to crack the jar.

I'm thinking of trying to raise daphnia outside in a kidddy pool this
year. I'll have to avoid the temptation to stick some triops in
there... ;)

Koi-Lo writes:
>I tried those water fleas and all they did was breed in the spring,
>giving me enough to feed my platys a few times, then they died out.

Ko-lo: What did you feed your fleas? I've used egg yolk in the past
(hard boiled) (in the same jar as my b.shrimp now that i think about
it) They did great.... I was able to harvest many feedings until i
had to move and the culture was abandoned. (wish i still had it... the
d. magna are much larger than the d. pulex (?) that i have now..)
Might have to reorder from Carolina B.S. or from one of the other
culture places.

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flip
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[Richard Sexton]

>Ko-lo: What did you feed your fleas? I've used egg yolk in the past
>(hard boiled) (in the same jar as my b.shrimp now that i think about
>it) They did great.... I was able to harvest many feedings until i
>had to move and the culture was abandoned. (wish i still had it... the
>d. magna are much larger than the d. pulex (?) that i have now..)
>Might have to reorder from Carolina B.S. or from one of the other
>culture places.

I've tried egg yolk (yuch), brewers yeast (OMG no) but the best luck
I ever had was with plain old green water. It's a live food, the others
are dead and you either underfeed (and daphnia die) or overfeed (and it
stinks and daphnia die).


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[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at the LFS than
>>>>> raise
>>>>> their own.
>>>
>>> Which explains the 25 year legacy of "why is my water green/milky" in
>>> this
>>> group.
>>===================
>>Can you explain the connection?
>
> Too much food.
>
> Too few water changes.
>
> Try changing 50% of the water every day for a week without doing anything
> else. Notice the difference.
=============================
I was asking what the *connection* was between live foods and dry and or
frozen foods where cloudy or green water are concerned. I don't have cloudy
or green water problems in my tanks.
--
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Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
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~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

>I was asking what the *connection* was between live foods and dry and or
>frozen foods where cloudy or green water are concerned. I don't have cloudy
>or green water problems in my tanks.

No, instead of green water suspended algae you have red algae, which comes
later in the algal sucession. Same problem though.


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[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>Some of us have tried and failed, or couldn't raise enough. For example
>>for
>>me to raise enough brine shrimp to feed my fish even a few times a week I
>>would have to have several huge tanks going all the time. I don't have
>>the
>>space. I tried those water fleas and all they did was breed in the
>>spring,
>>giving me enough to feed my platys a few times, then they died out. My
>>old
>>house-mate, another fish nut, tried those white worms that I found
>>disgusting and smelly.... it doesn't seem worth the effort.
>
> Brine shrimp have very little or no nutriative value except when freshly
> hatched, and I'm talking about within an hour or two of hatching. They're
> roughage otherwise. You have to gut load them or use Celco if you expect
> your fish to thrive.

I buy the multi pack of frozen foods which includes brine shrimp. This is a
treat for my fish, not the main dish. I depend on pelleted food for their
main nutrition including oranges and zucchini.

> If your worm culture smells you're doing something terribly wrong. I've
> raised
> them all my life, and grindal worms. A bad grindal worm culture can smell
> (overfeeding)
> and a far too wet and overfed whiteworm culture can smell a little. But
> nominally
> there is no odour.
>
>> Others may find it is - to each their own. I'd rather buy the frozen
>>stuff, thaw, rinse and feed.
>
> And how's that working out for you?

As far as nutrition in concerned - great! They breed like rabbits.

> Could you please not add alt.news.freeservers at random ?

I'm not "adding" alt.news.freeservers. If I see other off-topic NGs I
snick them. You may have seen a forgery from a troll. They use my NYM
once in awhile.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

>I'm not "adding" alt.news.freeservers. If I see other off-topic NGs I
>snick them. You may have seen a forgery from a troll. They use my NYM
>once in awhile.

That's odd. Impersonaton is a federal offence in the US. State police or the
FBI would be the people to talk to about that. Especially if it's systematic.

I used to have a bit too much fun on usenet way back when, until I had
two provicial police show up atthe door wanting me to knock it off or
be prepared to be charged with no less than 4 federal offences. That
sure cured me right smartly.




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[Koi-Lo]

"Philip Lewis" > wrote in message
...
> Marco Schwarz > writes:
>>> Probably most people would rather buy the frozen foods at
>>> the LFS than raise their own.
>>Hmm.., am I an alien? :-)
>
> V'q erpxba vs lbh pna ernq guvf lbh ner.
>
> I've had a tank (10 gal pickle jar) outside (for personal amusement)
> for several years (4-5?) now. They come back year after year...
> Fortunately it hasn't got cold enough to crack the jar.
>
> I'm thinking of trying to raise daphnia outside in a kidddy pool this
> year. I'll have to avoid the temptation to stick some triops in
> there... ;)
>
> Koi-Lo writes:
>>I tried those water fleas and all they did was breed in the spring,
>>giving me enough to feed my platys a few times, then they died out.
>
> Ko-lo: What did you feed your fleas?

The instructions said to add some soil and partly rotted leaves and water
plants. I did just that (plus some brewers yeast and powdered fish food)
and they did ok. However, they didn't multiply to the point of it being
worth keeping a kiddy-pool going for them. When the heat of summer came
they didn't multiply at all. I still see a few occasionally in my
kiddy-pools because they got moved around on the hornwart I'm sure. The
original pool of them died off or there were so few I didn't see any when I
finally cleaned it and used it for goldfish fry. They do better in "green
water" but the sun heated the pool too much so I had to shade it - it was a
no-win situation. It simply wasn't worth the bother.

I've used egg yolk in the past
> (hard boiled) (in the same jar as my b.shrimp now that i think about
> it) They did great.... I was able to harvest many feedings until i
> had to move and the culture was abandoned. (wish i still had it... the
> d. magna are much larger than the d. pulex (?) that i have now..)
> Might have to reorder from Carolina B.S. or from one of the other
> culture places.

If you don't have many fish or your fish are small it may worth the effort
for you.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I'm not "adding" alt.news.freeservers. If I see other off-topic NGs I
>>snick them. You may have seen a forgery from a troll. They use my NYM
>>once in awhile.
>
> That's odd. Impersonaton is a federal offence in the US. State police or
> the
> FBI would be the people to talk to about that. Especially if it's
> systematic.

Are you kidding me? I doubt impersonating someone on Usenet is a federal
offense. But then who knows.......

> I used to have a bit too much fun on usenet way back when, until I had
> two provicial police show up atthe door wanting me to knock it off or
> be prepared to be charged with no less than 4 federal offences. That
> sure cured me right smartly.

You were probably doing *more* than impersonating people on Usenet. ;-) If
it was a federal offense here in the USA several of these trolls pestering
these fish and pond NGs would be arrested. No less than 3 of them have
impersonated me in the past 9 months.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
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[Richard Sexton]

>And feeding live foods somehow prevents algae?

Yeah. With any frozen or dried food some of it ALWAYS goes into the
water column and it takes SO LITTLE to make things go awry. No live
fod is ever wasted... if it moves, it's eaten. Ans white workms can
live indefinitly in water modulo oxygen deprivation.

>tanks do not have this "black crud" or red algae. Or they have so little
>it's not a problem.

Doesn't matter if it's brown diatoms, blue green cyanobacteria, green
algae or procaryotic staghorn or brush algae, it's all there because the
plants aren't growing quickly enough to outcompete it.

Hey, I had more staghorn and green thread alage than I knew what
to do with and actually quit this hobby because of it 7 yeara ago,
when I started again and listened to Tom Barr things changed. You'd
be hard pressed to find any algae here now and all I do different is
fetilize more. If I get lax on water chages I do a buch, add excel for a
week and bang, it's gone again.

I know the feeling of "I can't be doing anything wrong, what else
could I possibly do and those people can't be right in what they're
telling me" and it took quite a few months for me to accept dumping
in fairly large amounts of potassium nitrate could possibly help, but,
damn, I mean day-yum. Yeah, it really does.

Keep in mind algae can only thrive under very stable conditions. It
hates change and shocking it with large daily water changes alone can
get rid of it.

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[Richard Sexton]

>Are you kidding me? I doubt impersonating someone on Usenet is a federal
>offense. But then who knows.......

Carol this is not an opinion, this is a fact of law. If you pretend to be
somebody else, that's a bust, period.

>You were probably doing *more* than impersonating people on Usenet. ;-) If
>it was a federal offense here in the USA several of these trolls pestering
>these fish and pond NGs would be arrested. No less than 3 of them have
>impersonated me in the past 9 months.

Nope. I had a web page that people could go to and pretend to be somebody
else and send email. It was all in the name of fun, but the jerk in question
I was satirizing didn't agree, complained and hello officer(s).

They probably won't get arrested, but they'll be asked to stop but somebody
(with "standing" - that is the victem) has to initiate a complaint.

If it happens again, THEN they'll be arrested and charged. The sentance is
bigger than you'd think, and thre's 4 or 5 things they canbe charged with
2 years for each one.

Local cops are not the right ones, this involves wires, so it's wire fraud to boot;
the FBI is probablyte most appropriate. Off the top of my head agent swink
in new york would be who I'd call. I know a guy that spent 8 mos in jail for
stupid net tricks. He deserved to as well, frankly. He was a good boy
after that.

Crank anonymous phone calls are currently a federal offence in the US and
very shortly new legislation takes effect that makes anonymous crank internet
postings come under the same law.

The kind of **** you see here is one of the reasons why. There are some good
lawyers out there and they've worked damn hard to get things like this
done. Some idiot messes up some congressmans life and that was the straw that
broke the camels back. This was talked about on slashdot a while back.

I'm saddened to see the groups I created (espeicallly rec.ponds) trashed,
but there has been sufficient interest in the lehgal community behind the scense
that I expect things will start getting better and by summer nobody will even
remember this crap.


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[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Are you kidding me? I doubt impersonating someone on Usenet is a
> >federal
>>offense. But then who knows.......
>
> Carol this is not an opinion, this is a fact of law. If you pretend to be
> somebody else, that's a bust, period.
============================
I am going to reply to this by e-mail for obvious reasons. I have the
headers saved from those who impersonated me and more...............

Please watch for my e-mail which will be sent later on tonight. I will use
your address above.

Koi-Lo


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[Larry Blanchard]

Koi-Lo wrote:

> Some of us have tried and failed, or couldn't raise enough.**For
> example*for me to raise enough brine shrimp to feed my fish even a few
> times a week I would have to have several huge tanks going all the
> time.

I've had pretty good luck raising blackworms in a 2.2 gallon tank with
about 1-2 inches of water. A bubble wand for oxygenation and I feed
them the same sinking algae pellets I feed my fish. 2-3 dollars worth
from the LFS and I'm set for about 6 months. Of course I only feed
them once a week.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Koi-Lo]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> I've had pretty good luck raising blackworms in a 2.2 gallon tank with
> about 1-2 inches of water. A bubble wand for oxygenation and I feed
> them the same sinking algae pellets I feed my fish. 2-3 dollars worth
> from the LFS and I'm set for about 6 months. Of course I only feed
> them once a week.
==========================
There isn't one store I know of in driving distance that carries live food.
All I can get here are nightcrawlers, crickets and meal worms. The
crawlers are too large for anything but a large goldfish or a koi.

Koi-Lo

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Larry Blanchard > wrote:
>Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>> Some of us have tried and failed, or couldn't raise enough.**For
>> example*for me to raise enough brine shrimp to feed my fish even a few
>> times a week I would have to have several huge tanks going all the
>> time.
>
>I've had pretty good luck raising blackworms in a 2.2 gallon tank with
>about 1-2 inches of water. A bubble wand for oxygenation and I feed
>them the same sinking algae pellets I feed my fish. 2-3 dollars worth
>from the LFS and I'm set for about 6 months. Of course I only feed
>them once a week.

Are they just as slimey and disgusting as store bought ones?

Wright Huntley used to culture tubifex worms in a 60 gal tank
outdoors (in california).

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[Richard Sexton]

>There isn't one store I know of in driving distance that carries live food.
>All I can get here are nightcrawlers, crickets and meal worms. The
>crawlers are too large for anything but a large goldfish or a koi.

Crickets are a near perfect food for fish. Gut load them with things
like high protein baby cerial or carrots and they're fine as a staple.

10# bags of crocket food are dirt cheap; poeple I know culture them
in a 20 gal tank (uh, sans water)

I have some caue of a certain lizard that lives here. It's kinda neat
to hear them on a winter evening.


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[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 23:52:26 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>And feeding live foods somehow prevents algae?
>
>Yeah. With any frozen or dried food some of it ALWAYS goes into the
>water column and it takes SO LITTLE to make things go awry. No live
>fod is ever wasted... if it moves, it's eaten. Ans white workms can
>live indefinitly in water modulo oxygen deprivation.
>
>>tanks do not have this "black crud" or red algae. Or they have so little
>>it's not a problem.
>
>Doesn't matter if it's brown diatoms, blue green cyanobacteria, green
>algae or procaryotic staghorn or brush algae, it's all there because the
>plants aren't growing quickly enough to outcompete it.
>
>Hey, I had more staghorn and green thread alage than I knew what
>to do with and actually quit this hobby because of it 7 yeara ago,
>when I started again and listened to Tom Barr things changed. You'd
>be hard pressed to find any algae here now and all I do different is
>fetilize more. If I get lax on water chages I do a buch, add excel for a
>week and bang, it's gone again.
>
>I know the feeling of "I can't be doing anything wrong, what else
>could I possibly do and those people can't be right in what they're
>telling me" and it took quite a few months for me to accept dumping
>in fairly large amounts of potassium nitrate could possibly help, but,
>damn, I mean day-yum. Yeah, it really does.
>
>Keep in mind algae can only thrive under very stable conditions. It
>hates change and shocking it with large daily water changes alone can
>get rid of it.

I read Tom Barr's method yesterday, again last night, and one more
time this morning. I don't really have a problem with his method, but
I might have a problem with his presentation. His method is
essentially to feed heavily, do plenty of big water changes, and don't
bother testing anything except CO2. He states that farmers do this all
the time and they don't know anything about chemistry. Well, farmers
used to do that all the time, but today's farmers do know something
about chemistry, and do regular testing of their soil and add only the
nutrients that the tests call for. Fertilizers are quite expensive,
and farmers need to spend their money wisely when investing in their
soil, which is becoming a very expensive commodity. Yes, there are
still some farmers, old timers mostly, who can go into their fields
and smell and taste their soil and know intuitively what it needs, but
even tasting and smelling are tests. I guess my concern is that
newbies will follow Barr's method and never really come to understand
their water chemistry. Just like the guy who throws a few extra
barrels of chlorine into the water supply, "just to be on the safe
side." Barr's method works because Barr is highly experienced and
understands water chemistry. I would endorse his method, but not skip
the water testing along the way. The water testing is how we learn.
The water testing is what brought us out of the dark ages when we
simply poured a little of this and a lot of that into our tanks.

-- Mr Gardener

[Larry Blanchard]

Richard Sexton wrote:

>>I've had pretty good luck raising blackworms in a 2.2 gallon tank with
>>about 1-2 inches of water.**A*bubble*wand*for*oxygenation*and*I*feed
>>them the same sinking algae pellets I feed my fish.**2-3*dollars*worth
>>from the LFS and I'm set for about 6 months.**Of*course*I*only*feed
>>them once a week.
>
> Are they just as slimey and disgusting as store bought ones?

To me they're just like tiny earthworms. I don't find them slimy or
disgusting, but I guess it's possible you might. Certainly no slimier
than our fish :-).

But since I never handle them, it doesn't matter anyway. I pick some up
in an eyedropper to feed them to the fish. Good thing it's a plastic
eyedropper, it's got fish toothmarks in it :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Richard Sexton]

>I read Tom Barr's method yesterday, again last night, and one more
>time this morning. I don't really have a problem with his method, but
>I might have a problem with his presentation. His method is
>essentially to feed heavily, do plenty of big water changes, and don't
>bother testing anything except CO2. He states that farmers do this all
>the time and they don't know anything about chemistry. Well, farmers
>used to do that all the time, but today's farmers do know something
>about chemistry, and do regular testing of their soil and add only the
>nutrients that the tests call for. Fertilizers are quite expensive,

Not aquarium fertilizers.

>and farmers need to spend their money wisely when investing in their
>soil, which is becoming a very expensive commodity. Yes, there are
>still some farmers, old timers mostly, who can go into their fields
>and smell and taste their soil and know intuitively what it needs, but
>even tasting and smelling are tests. I guess my concern is that
>newbies will follow Barr's method and never really come to understand
>their water chemistry. Just like the guy who throws a few extra
>barrels of chlorine into the water supply, "just to be on the safe
>side." Barr's method works because Barr is highly experienced and
>understands water chemistry. I would endorse his method, but not skip
>the water testing along the way. The water testing is how we learn.
>The water testing is what brought us out of the dark ages when we
>simply poured a little of this and a lot of that into our tanks.

Tom's method works fine any anybody can do it without a test kit,
that's the point. Now, Tom does indeed test, with a fancy No3 meter,
but I don't, I just do what he suggests and it works spectaculrly well.

A knowledge of chemistry is good, but completly optional.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Larry Blanchard > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>>>I've had pretty good luck raising blackworms in a 2.2 gallon tank with
>>>about 1-2 inches of water.**A*bubble*wand*for*oxygenation*and*I*feed
>>>them the same sinking algae pellets I feed my fish.**2-3*dollars*worth
>>>from the LFS and I'm set for about 6 months.**Of*course*I*only*feed
>>>them once a week.
>>
>> Are they just as slimey and disgusting as store bought ones?
>
>To me they're just like tiny earthworms. I don't find them slimy or
>disgusting, but I guess it's possible you might. Certainly no slimier
>than our fish :-).

The store bought ones seem to produce a grey slime and a fair bit of it.

Not that I've ever seen them in Canada mind you.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> Keep in mind algae can only thrive under very stable conditions. It
> hates change and shocking it with large daily water changes alone can
> get rid of it.
=======================
So far all I can say is this black soot algae *loved* the massive water
changes and turned into a soft blackish-red fur now. In other words it
GREW. I added the Flourish Excel and Flourish Trace Elements yesterday and
will report any changes. The GF don't like these massive water changes and
pipe at the surface and some drop down behind the plants gasping afterward.
This will go one for several hours and doesn't appear to be good for THEM.

Large daily or every-other-day water changes are out of the question unless
I can find a teenager looking to make a few bucks. And that's not likely.
It's impractical to say the least with 55g tanks. Not all tanks are on a
flow-through system. That would also make the cost of Flourish Excel and
the other products outrageous if I needed to add them daily - or every other
day.

Kli-Lo......

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> Keep in mind algae can only thrive under very stable conditions. It
>> hates change and shocking it with large daily water changes alone can
>> get rid of it.
>=======================
>So far all I can say is this black soot algae *loved* the massive water
>changes and turned into a soft blackish-red fur now.

That means it's unhappy. It'll get redder and redder then whitish then
is starts to dissolve. Then you do massive water changes as all that
dead algae makes ammonia which makes, you guessed it, algae.

That's whay it's called an algal succession.
--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I've had a tank (10 gal pickle jar) outside
> (for personal amusement) for several years (4-5?)
> now. They come back year after year...
> Fortunately it hasn't got cold enough to crack
> the jar.

Interesting. Mine live(d) in shallow water PE foil ponds,
10-15cm deep (4-6"). They came back every year, too. But
one year in the 90s we had a hot summer and a dry harvest.
The water reduced more an more. The Artemia died, the salt
dried but they came back next spring.

> I'm thinking of trying to raise daphnia outside
> in a kidddy pool this year. I'll have to avoid the
> temptation to stick some triops in there... ;)

Why not? :-)

>>I tried those water fleas and all they did was breed in
>>the spring, giving me enough to feed my platys a few
>>times, then they died out.
> Ko-lo: What did you feed your fleas?

@ Koi-Lo and Philip:
Tried out coffee milk? They don't eat milk I think but the
multiplying bacteria. Add some clean oak or book leafs, a
weak air stone and rams horn snails..
--
cu
Marco

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I read Tom Barr's method yesterday, again last night, and one more
>>time this morning. I don't really have a problem with his method, but
>>I might have a problem with his presentation. His method is
>>essentially to feed heavily, do plenty of big water changes, and don't
>>bother testing anything except CO2. He states that farmers do this all
>>the time and they don't know anything about chemistry. Well, farmers
>>used to do that all the time, but today's farmers do know something
>>about chemistry, and do regular testing of their soil and add only the
>>nutrients that the tests call for. Fertilizers are quite expensive,
>
> Not aquarium fertilizers.

$3.79 for 8 oz. of aquarium fertilizer isn't cheap when you have a lot of
tanks, some of them large.

....... The water testing is how we learn.
>>The water testing is what brought us out of the dark ages when we
>>simply poured a little of this and a lot of that into our tanks.

> Tom's method works fine any anybody can do it without a test kit,
> that's the point. Now, Tom does indeed test, with a fancy No3 meter,
> but I don't, I just do what he suggests and it works spectaculrly well.

He suggests massive water changes with Flourish Excel..... what else is he
using? Are his tanks well stocked with fish? You said algae can't live in
the presence of Flourish Excel but it's been 24 hours now and we see no
change in the black sooty furry algae.

> A knowledge of chemistry is good, but completly optional.


Koi-Lo........

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>So far all I can say is this black soot algae *loved* the massive water
>>changes and turned into a soft blackish-red fur now.

> That means it's unhappy. It'll get redder and redder then whitish then
> is starts to dissolve. Then you do massive water changes as all that
> dead algae makes ammonia which makes, you guessed it, algae.

So far it's been 24 hours and no changes in the algae yet. How many days
does it usually take to see a change?

> That's whay it's called an algal succession.


Koi-Lo...........

[Koi-Lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
>
> @ Koi-Lo and Philip:
> Tried out coffee milk? They don't eat milk I think but the
> multiplying bacteria. Add some clean oak or book leafs, a
> weak air stone and rams horn snails..
=========================
I'll pass on raising them since I'd need a small lake to harvest enough for
all the fish I have.

Koi-Lo...

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>> Not aquarium fertilizers.
>
>$3.79 for 8 oz. of aquarium fertilizer isn't cheap when you have a lot of
>tanks, some of them large.

You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.

>He suggests massive water changes with Flourish Excel..... what else is he
>using? Are his tanks well stocked with fish? You said algae can't live in
>the presence of Flourish Excel but it's been 24 hours now and we see no
>change in the black sooty furry algae.

Tom does't use excel, he uses co2. He's just saying it works.

In two days you should see a change in color in the algae
and by this time next week it should be gone.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
> from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
> KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.

I'll check this place out. Sometimes with the shipping and handling charges
it costs twice the price. But then what about TRACE ELEMENTS? Those are
needed as well to keep plants growing. I can see this really starting to
add up..........

> In two days you should see a change in color in the algae
> and by this time next week it should be gone.

So far it's been 3 days without a change.

Koi-Lo..........

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
>> from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
>> KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.
>
>I'll check this place out. Sometimes with the shipping and handling charges
>it costs twice the price. But then what about TRACE ELEMENTS? Those are
>needed as well to keep plants growing. I can see this really starting to
>add up..........

Same price thereabouts. It's 1000X cheaper than buying them madeup as solutions.

>> In two days you should see a change in color in the algae
>> and by this time next week it should be gone.
>
>So far it's been 3 days without a change.

It'll happen, jsut wait it out.



--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net