Using Carbon in Reefs

[Mort]

Can someone school me on what the deal is with using Carbon in a reef?

Is it bad? Does it remove or add phosphates?

Basically, what are the Pros and Cons?

TIA

~Mort

[Marc Levenson]

I think running it occasionally is a good idea. Like once a month, for 3 days.
After that, pull it back out because it will lose the ability to absorb anything
else and the bag of carbon can even become yet another source of nitrates as
things build up.

Marc


Mort wrote:

> Can someone school me on what the deal is with using Carbon in a reef?
>
> Is it bad? Does it remove or add phosphates?
>
> Basically, what are the Pros and Cons?
>
> TIA
>
> ~Mort

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Rod]

>
>I think running it occasionally is a good idea. Like once a month, for 3
>days.
>After that, pull it back out because it will lose the ability to absorb
>anything
>else

Couldnt agree more, and also if left in too long it could possibly become a
biological filter without anarobic bacteria.


Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[ljtellef]

In a study I once read it showed that after 8 or 12 hours carbon was pretty
much exhausted (in the high 90's %) and had very little effect from that
point on.

HTH
LT

"Mort" > wrote in message
om...
> Can someone school me on what the deal is with using Carbon in a reef?
>
> Is it bad? Does it remove or add phosphates?
>
> Basically, what are the Pros and Cons?
>
> TIA
>
> ~Mort
>
>
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> Couldnt agree more, and also if left in too long it could possibly become a
> biological filter without anarobic bacteria.

while not the answer your looking for

carbon is an excelent growing medium for both types of bacteria

the outside will do nitrification

the inside will do denitrification.

assuming it stays clean, stays in the water long enough, .......

yank it anyways though!

--
Richard Reynolds

[Rod]

>carbon is an excelent growing medium for both types of bacteria
>
>the outside will do nitrification
>
>the inside will do denitrification.
>

We all agree to yank it out..But, unless the carbon is used passively (just
in a bag tossed in the sump, which isnt nearly as efective forcing the water to
pass through the carbon) how will the "inside" grow anareobic bacteria to
preform denitrification with oxygen rich water passing over/thriugh it all of
the time?
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[CapFusion]

"Rod" > wrote in message
...
>
> We all agree to yank it out..But, unless the carbon is used passively
(just
> in a bag tossed in the sump, which isnt nearly as efective forcing the
water to
> pass through the carbon) how will the "inside" grow anareobic bacteria to
> preform denitrification with oxygen rich water passing over/thriugh it
all of
> the time?
> Rod Buehler
> www.asplashoflife.com

It should be aeronabic bacteria. Anareobic should be in DSB where no oxygen.

CapFusion,...

[Rod]

>It should be aeronabic bacteria. Anareobic should be in DSB where no oxygen.
>

Exactly, but when passing oxygen rich water through carbon, how will anaerobic
bacteria colonize? how will denitrifacation occur?
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[CapFusion]

"Rod" > wrote in message
...
> >It should be aeronabic bacteria. Anareobic should be in DSB where no
oxygen.
> >
>
> Exactly, but when passing oxygen rich water through carbon, how will
anaerobic
> bacteria colonize? how will denitrifacation occur?

Which bacteria you refering to, aero or ana?
Aeronabic - it need rich oxygen to breakdown nitrite and produce nitrate.
It colonize on or in spaces of the carbon. Any coarse area where water and
oxygen pass the media where it trap debris.

Anarobic - need low oxygen to breakdown nitrate to nitrogen gas.
It colonize in spaces of very dense area of your fine sand where water and
oxygen circultion is low.

CapFusion,...

[Richard Reynolds]

actually if you are using up to the recomended max flow for the volume of CC the insides
of each piece of carbon will house anoxic zones and break down nitrates, carbon by design
is full of very small channels each can make up surface area for first aerobic bacteria
(nitrification) then anaerobic (denitrification) its documented more in FW but it still
works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.

> Aeronabic - it need rich oxygen to breakdown nitrite and produce nitrate.
> It colonize on or in spaces of the carbon. Any coarse area where water and
> oxygen pass the media where it trap debris.

they just need oxygen, they do best in higher oxygen levels but to say "oxygen rich" would
seem to me that you need more oxygen than in any dead flow area in your tank. which is not
true.

> Anarobic - need low oxygen to breakdown nitrate to nitrogen gas.
> It colonize in spaces of very dense area of your fine sand where water and
> oxygen circultion is low.

itll colinize in any area where oxygen is removed from the water before the water reaches
it, live rock and even certain filter material will do the same thing. along with a long
coil of tubing (see coil denitrator)

--
Richard Reynolds

[Rod]

Rod Wrote
>> Exactly, but when passing oxygen rich water through carbon, how will
>anaerobic
>> bacteria colonize? how will denitrifacation occur?

Cap wrote
>
>Which bacteria you refering to, aero or ana?


Which one did I mention? ;)

Cap wrote
>Aeronabic - it need rich oxygen to breakdown nitrite and produce nitrate.
>It colonize on or in spaces of the carbon. Any coarse area where water and
>oxygen pass the media where it trap debris.
>

Exactly. like when forcing oxygen rich water through carbon..

Cap wrote
>Anarobic - need low oxygen to breakdown nitrate to nitrogen gas.
>It colonize in spaces of very dense area of your fine sand where water and
>oxygen circultion is low.


Exactly again! forcing oxygen rich water through carbon will not allow
anaerobic bacteria to colonize, just aerobic, so no de-nitrification will
occur. Just nitrifacation. Like I said originally said... leaving carbon in a
filter too long could pruduce nitrates, by becoming a biological filter that
houses areobic bacteria. (unless the carbon is used passivly.. then it could
colonize anaerobic bacteria)
>
>CapFusion,...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[Rod]

>actually if you are using up to the recomended max flow for the volume of CC
>the insides
>of each piece of carbon will house anoxic zones and break down nitrates,

How so? oxygen rich water passed through very small chanels.. kinda sounds
like the way an undergravel filter would work.. The colonize aeribic bacterria.

>carbon by design
>is full of very small channels each can make up surface area for first
>aerobic bacteria
>(nitrification) then anaerobic (denitrification) its documented more in FW
>but it still
>works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.

Do the anaerobic bacteria colonize after the carbon is clogged, and then the
water is just passing around the carbon? I dont see where the anoxic zones come
into play here
>
>> Aeronabic - it need rich oxygen to breakdown nitrite and produce nitrate.
>> It colonize on or in spaces of the carbon. Any coarse area where water and
>> oxygen pass the media where it trap debris.
>
>they just need oxygen, they do best in higher oxygen levels but to say
>"oxygen rich" would
>seem to me that you need more oxygen than in any dead flow area in your tank.
>which is not
>true.
>
>> Anarobic - need low oxygen to breakdown nitrate to nitrogen gas.
>> It colonize in spaces of very dense area of your fine sand where water and
>> oxygen circultion is low.
>
>itll colinize in any area where oxygen is removed from the water before the
>water reaches
>it, live rock and even certain filter material will do the same thing. along
>with a long
>coil of tubing (see coil denitrator)
>
>--
>Richard Reynolds

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[Mort]

<snip>
its documented more in FW but it still
> works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
<snip>

Getting back on topic... >=)
WHAT "other" issues?

~Mort

[Richard Reynolds]

> >actually if you are using up to the recomended max flow for the volume of CC
> >the insides
> >of each piece of carbon will house anoxic zones and break down nitrates,
>
> How so? oxygen rich water passed through very small chanels.. kinda sounds
> like the way an undergravel filter would work.. The colonize aeribic bacterria.

its not oxygen rich by the time its gone thru a couple layers of carbon, the nitrifying
bacteria that have colonized the carbon have removed alot of the oxygen and we are talking
about the microscopic insides of each piece of carbon, not the packed outsides like a UGF
which are in no way small chanels they are huge you can even see thru them.

> >carbon by design
> >is full of very small channels each can make up surface area for first
> >aerobic bacteria
> >(nitrification) then anaerobic (denitrification) its documented more in FW
> >but it still
> >works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
>
> Do the anaerobic bacteria colonize after the carbon is clogged, and then the
> water is just passing around the carbon? I dont see where the anoxic zones come
> into play here

if the carbon becomes cloged you wont reduce nitrates even if there is denitrification
going on as the decay will raise nitrates faster than the denitrification works. thats one
of the bad points. also if it clogs the denitrification stops. remember not popular
because of other issues.

--
Richard Reynolds

[Richard Reynolds]

> its documented more in FW but it still
> > works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
> <snip>
>
> Getting back on topic... >=)
> WHAT "other" issues?

there are several

anything that becomes traped inside the carbon breaks down creates nitrates faster than
any removal
once the carbon is spent, it cant hold anymore, now you just have a pile of bio media
the fine pours will clog causing this denitrification to stop
the ability to remove nitrates takes longer then the ability to remove ammonia/nitrite
becomes a *nitrate factory* neither of which happen in a week.
leaching of certain things

search groups.google.com for carbon this is not even close to the first time all these
have been discussed.



--
Richard Reynolds

[CapFusion]

"Rod" > wrote in message
...
> Rod Wrote
> >> Exactly, but when passing oxygen rich water through carbon, how will
> >anaerobic
> >> bacteria colonize? how will denitrifacation occur?
>
> Cap wrote
> >
> >Which bacteria you refering to, aero or ana?
>
>
> Which one did I mention? ;)
>
Heehe sorry, I did not get the message or the transition of the sentence at
first. And therefore, I did not know which one you are referring to. My
mistake.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:dvrdc.900$kM2.219@lakeread05...

> actually if you are using up to the recomended max flow for the volume of
CC the insides
> of each piece of carbon will house anoxic zones and break down nitrates,
carbon by design
> is full of very small channels each can make up surface area for first
aerobic bacteria
> (nitrification) then anaerobic (denitrification) its documented more in FW
but it still
> works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
>
> > Aeronabic - it need rich oxygen to breakdown nitrite and produce
nitrate.
> > It colonize on or in spaces of the carbon. Any coarse area where water
and
> > oxygen pass the media where it trap debris.
>
> they just need oxygen, they do best in higher oxygen levels but to say
"oxygen rich" would
> seem to me that you need more oxygen than in any dead flow area in your
tank. which is not
> true.


Humm.... I think amount "oxygen" is getting side track here.
- rich oxygen
- higher oxygen
and other ....
To be specific how much oxygen, I do not really or truely know to be for
sure. All I know is aeronabic bacteria have enough or efficient amount to
consume and or break down nitrite to nitrate.

Where or which area most aeronabic have the most efficient oxygen? I would
say a Wet/Dry filter or from a Bio-Wheel when compare to a canister or
submerge media or LR in the tank and or from coarse gravel / substrate.

The main point here regarding aeronabic bacteria is oxygen is need to be
use.



> > Anarobic - need low oxygen to breakdown nitrate to nitrogen gas.
> > It colonize in spaces of very dense area of your fine sand where water
and
> > oxygen circultion is low.
>
> itll colinize in any area where oxygen is removed from the water before
the water reaches
> it, live rock and even certain filter material will do the same thing.
along with a long
> coil of tubing (see coil denitrator)
>

Yes, that is another way of saying low oxygen "where oxygen is removed from
water before the water reaches it..."

Again yes, any media or filter will accomplish this too as long where "low"
oxygen.
But any other area like media filter AND LR etc ... is small when compare to
your DSB in the tank or from a sump / refugium. Lesser area, lesser bacteria
can colonize and lesser denitrification. I am not saying there no other area
can be denitrification from this bacteria other than DSB. DSB to me [IMHO]
is the best or optimal area to do denitrification.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:1Lydc.959$kM2.431@lakeread05...

> its not oxygen rich by the time its gone thru a couple layers of carbon,
the nitrifying
> bacteria that have colonized the carbon have removed alot of the oxygen
and we are talking
> about the microscopic insides of each piece of carbon, not the packed
outsides like a UGF
> which are in no way small chanels they are huge you can even see thru
them.
>


Yes, lower layer of the carbon have less or lower or not oxygen rich by the
time it go through the carbon layer. But the main point here regarding
carbon or any other media is about outside where it trap debris. Producing
nitrate will be more and will eventually goto your tank. Some nitrate will
get convert or breakdown further by denitrification from deeper layer of the
carbon or other denise media but what happen with the rest of nitrate? The
rest of the nitrate surely can not be consume / convert that fast so it pass
by / flow out to the main tank or other area.

So the end result, do not recommend using any filter / media that can trap
debris. From this result, we reefer call it "nitrate factory".



> if the carbon becomes cloged you wont reduce nitrates even if there is
denitrification
> going on as the decay will raise nitrates faster than the denitrification
works. thats one
> of the bad points. also if it clogs the denitrification stops. remember
not popular
> because of other issues.
>

Heehe....

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Mort" > wrote in message
m...
>
>
> <snip>
> its documented more in FW but it still
> > works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
> <snip>
>
> Getting back on topic... >=)
> WHAT "other" issues?
>
> ~Mort
>

"Nitrate Factory" issue.....?

CapFusion,...

[Rod]

I couldnt agree more.. and always have. I was just unclear of where the
anaerobic bacteria was coming from.(due to oxygen rich water being forced
through..) , but now I see you are saying that the aerobic bacteria is using
the oxygen from the water being forced through, then the the anaerobic
bacteria are able to colonize further down the path of the forced water. Am I
following correctly? if so, Im not sure I agree or disagree.. either way,we
both agree that carbon should only be used for a few days then pulled from the
system ;) I was not able to see where the denitrifacation would occur, but I
think I undersand what you are saying.

>>its not oxygen rich by the time its gone thru a couple layers of carbon, the
>nitrifying
>bacteria that have colonized the carbon have removed alot of the oxygen and
>we are talking
>about the microscopic insides of each piece of carbon, not the packed
>outsides like a UGF
>which are in no way small chanels they are huge you can even see thru them.
>
>> >carbon by design
>> >is full of very small channels each can make up surface area for first
>> >aerobic bacteria
>> >(nitrification) then anaerobic (denitrification) its documented more in FW
>> >but it still
>> >works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
>>
>> Do the anaerobic bacteria colonize after the carbon is clogged, and then
>the
>> water is just passing around the carbon? I dont see where the anoxic zones
>come
>> into play here
>
>if the carbon becomes cloged you wont reduce nitrates even if there is
>denitrification
>going on as the decay will raise nitrates faster than the denitrification
>works. thats one
>of the bad points. also if it clogs the denitrification stops. remember not
>popular
>because of other issues.
>
>--
>Richard Reynolds

>its not oxygen rich by the time its gone thru a couple layers of carbon, the
>nitrifying
>bacteria that have colonized the carbon have removed alot of the oxygen and
>we are talking
>about the microscopic insides of each piece of carbon, not the packed
>outsides like a UGF
>which are in no way small chanels they are huge you can even see thru them.
>
>> >carbon by design
>> >is full of very small channels each can make up surface area for first
>> >aerobic bacteria
>> >(nitrification) then anaerobic (denitrification) its documented more in FW
>> >but it still
>> >works in SW, its not popular specifically because of other issues.
>>
>> Do the anaerobic bacteria colonize after the carbon is clogged, and then
>the
>> water is just passing around the carbon? I dont see where the anoxic zones
>come
>> into play here
>
>if the carbon becomes cloged you wont reduce nitrates even if there is
>denitrification
>going on as the decay will raise nitrates faster than the denitrification
>works. thats one
>of the bad points. also if it clogs the denitrification stops. remember not
>popular
>because of other issues.
>
>--
>Richard Reynolds

>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>if the carbon becomes cloged you wont reduce nitrates even if there is
>denitrification
>going on as the decay will raise nitrates faster than the denitrification
>works. thats one
>of the bad points. also if it clogs the denitrification stops. remember not
>popular
>because of other issues.
>
>--
>Richard Reynolds

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Rod]

>So the end result, do not recommend using any filter / media that can trap
>debris. From this result, we reefer call it "nitrate factory".
>

Yes, we all agree :)