Live rock

[Harry Ohanian]

If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?

[TheRock]

Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
Is live rock really live ?

I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
micro fauna and algae.
So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to the
light. 10,000K

right ?

"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
> If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>

[midgard]

That's what i wanna to talk :)

[Jaime R-S]

Hi;
You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths where
light is dim.
Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock stays
alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an algae
incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its part of
the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the zooxanthella and
will be able to live without it for periods of time. The drawback about not
having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the main reason
for having corals in a reef aquarium.
I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those anywhere
else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable birth place of
coral reefs. The majority of the time the water visibility is not great and
coral reefs manage to survive with little and poor light at depths of up to
100 feet.

jrs
"TheRock" > wrote in message
news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
> Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
> Is live rock really live ?
>
> I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
> micro fauna and algae.
> So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to the
> light. 10,000K
>
> right ?
>
> "Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>
>
>

[~Roy~]

Well since its hard to tell what may eventually spring up on your live
rock even months later, IMHO its always good to provide some lighting
be it a cheap 7 watt or so light its still better off in the end. I
do beliebe most things in general will benefit from some light, over
total darkness, at least what is used or kept in the typical home
aquarium setups. Those Red Sea clip / clamp-on lights with 7/9watt PC
are super for most fuges/sumps.....Heck even the el cheapo night
lights with a 7 1/2 watt incandesant bulb is better than nothing and
will add no appreciable heat or $$ to power bill. I bought a bunch of
1.6 and 1.2 gal all glass tanks on a close out at Petco awhile back.
They had a AC wall wart that dropped 120VAC down to 3VAC current and
used a small screwin type flashlight bulb....that produced somehtig
around 1 /1/2 watts.......Totally useless over a fish tank expcept
perhaps a betta tank, as they like subdued dim lights anyhow, but I
had a heap of those lights laying around. One day I just decided to
see what it would do, and just layed it over the top of an AC hang on
back powerfilter, that had live rock rubble in it. Up until this time
all that ever was seen in that hob filter fuge was feather duster
worms, now its teaming with other as of yet unidentified critters,
and its actually exploded with life......all with just 1 1/2 watts of
lights........I am a firm believer in having lights over fuge, sumps
etc as its more beneficial than harmfull or non - productive.
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Wayne Sallee]

Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.

When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend
by the loss of food that this algae was providing them.

The corals you saw living in low light were probably low
light corals, not the type of coras that we keep.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
> Hi;
> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths where
> light is dim.
> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock stays
> alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an algae
> incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its part of
> the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the zooxanthella and
> will be able to live without it for periods of time. The drawback about not
> having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the main reason
> for having corals in a reef aquarium.
> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those anywhere
> else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable birth place of
> coral reefs. The majority of the time the water visibility is not great and
> coral reefs manage to survive with little and poor light at depths of up to
> 100 feet.
>
> jrs
> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>
>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>Is live rock really live ?
>>
>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
>>micro fauna and algae.
>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to the
>>light. 10,000K
>>
>>right ?
>>
>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of
plankton available in the ocean, and trying to imitate
that much, can spoil the water easily.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
> Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>
> When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
> of food that this algae was providing them.
>
> The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
> not the type of coras that we keep.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>
>> Hi;
>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>> where light is dim.
>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>> algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing
>> its part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>> zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>> The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss
>> of colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>> and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>
>> jrs
>> "TheRock" > wrote in message
>> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>
>>> Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>> Is live rock really live ?
>>>
>>> I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
>>> misc micro fauna and algae.
>>> So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>> the light. 10,000K
>>>
>>> right ?
>>>
>>> "Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>
>>>> If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

[Wayne Sallee]

That's the next step in reef keeping, keeping colorfull
deep water soft corals that don't like light, but require
plenty of food.

It used to be thought that one could not keep corals in an
aquarium, but with the knowlage available, it's easy. The
next chanlange is a tank full of the colorfull soft corals
found deep in the ocean. Then instead of lighing being the
most important equipment, a chiller would be the most
important equipment.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 3:44 PM:
> Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
> in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water easily.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>
>> Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>
>> When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>> of food that this algae was providing them.
>>
>> The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>> not the type of coras that we keep.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>
>>> Hi;
>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>> where light is dim.
>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the
>>> rock stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>> algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing
>>> its part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>> zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of
>>> time. The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is
>>> the loss of colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef
>>> aquarium.
>>> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>> and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>
>>> jrs
>>> "TheRock" > wrote in message
>>> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>
>>>> Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>> Is live rock really live ?
>>>>
>>>> I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
>>>> misc micro fauna and algae.
>>>> So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>>> the light. 10,000K
>>>>
>>>> right ?
>>>>
>>>> "Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>
>>>>> If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

[Jaime R-S]

Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with me.
It has been proven beyond any imaginable doubt that you are not the most
knowledgeable participant of this forum and you should stick to what you
know, if anything!
Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not obligatory.
The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible debris
and plankton from the water. The algae uses the light to produce food FOR
ITSELF DUMMY, some of the leftovers of the coral are used as nutrients by
the algae which in return makes calcium and other macronutrients available
to the coral. I don't know how will you understand that corals are
CARNIVOROUS and don't eat the algae. Yes, the algae's, and any plant for
that matters, production is fixed on its leaves. That is the reason why the
coral CAN'T benefit from the algae's production.
Of course, you benefit from your client's buying those expensive fixtures
making you a parasite. I wonder if your clients know that you make them buy
expensive equipments that serve no purpose.
Well, as far as coral reefs in the Caribbean I just don't think that
Acropora palmata, Porites porites, Porites astreoides, Millepora spp,
Agaricia agaricites and many, many other coastal corals are not light
dependent. I saw the most beautiful Millepora spp and Porites spp
association scuba diving between Puerto Rico and Vieques at 50' about two
miles west of Vieques. The Vieques channel is so strong that the sediments
are waterborne most of the year in that region making visibility less than
50 meters the majority of the time. You should have seen the abundance of
white, camouflage and black sea urchins and even some sea grass beds all
over, together with the coral, some Thallassia was blooming at the time.
Light down there uses no BALLAST OR EXPENSIVE FIXTURES. It is just natural
sunlight, the same one that can be reproduce in your living room with
inexpensive lights. Of course, if you want it to look pretty, the $500
investment is worst it. But please, don't tell anyone that those lights are
needed other than for aesthetic purposes'.
Now, go and sin no more!

jrs

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>
> When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss of
> food that this algae was providing them.
>
> The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals, not
> the type of coras that we keep.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>> Hi;
>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>> where light is dim.
>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an algae
>> incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its part of
>> the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the zooxanthella and
>> will be able to live without it for periods of time. The drawback about
>> not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the main
>> reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little and
>> poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>
>> jrs
>> "TheRock" > wrote in message
>> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>
>>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>Is live rock really live ?
>>>
>>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
>>>micro fauna and algae.
>>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to the
>>>light. 10,000K
>>>
>>>right ?
>>>
>>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>
>>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

[Jaime R-S]

lol

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
> in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water easily.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>> Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>
>> When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss of
>> food that this algae was providing them.
>>
>> The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>> not the type of coras that we keep.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>
>>> Hi;
>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>> where light is dim.
>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>>> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>> algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
>>> part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>> zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>>> The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of
>>> colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>>> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>> and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>
>>> jrs
>>> "TheRock" > wrote in message
>>> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>
>>>> Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>> Is live rock really live ?
>>>>
>>>> I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
>>>> micro fauna and algae.
>>>> So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to the
>>>> light. 10,000K
>>>>
>>>> right ?
>>>>
>>>> "Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>
>>>>> If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

[Jaime R-S]

You do own or work at a pet shop, don't you?

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> That's the next step in reef keeping, keeping colorfull deep water soft
> corals that don't like light, but require plenty of food.
>
> It used to be thought that one could not keep corals in an aquarium, but
> with the knowlage available, it's easy. The next chanlange is a tank full
> of the colorfull soft corals found deep in the ocean. Then instead of
> lighing being the most important equipment, a chiller would be the most
> important equipment.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 3:44 PM:
>> Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
>> in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water
>> easily.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>>
>>> Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>>
>>> When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>>> of food that this algae was providing them.
>>>
>>> The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>>> not the type of coras that we keep.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>>
>>>> Hi;
>>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>>> where light is dim.
>>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>>> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>>>> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>>> algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
>>>> part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>>> zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>>>> The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of
>>>> colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>>>> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>>> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>>> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>>> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>>> and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>>
>>>> jrs
>>>> "TheRock" > wrote in message
>>>> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>>
>>>>> Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>>> Is live rock really live ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
>>>>> micro fauna and algae.
>>>>> So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>>>> the light. 10,000K
>>>>>
>>>>> right ?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
>>>>> . ..
>>>>>
>>>>>> If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

[Wayne Sallee]

Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 6:09 PM:
> Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with me.

LOL you crack me up.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Wayne Sallee]

Hey Jaimy,

Have you gotten your undergravel filter set up yet with
the crushed dolomite on top?

heheehehehehehehehe

Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 6:11 PM:
> You do own or work at a pet shop, don't you?
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>That's the next step in reef keeping, keeping colorfull deep water soft
>>corals that don't like light, but require plenty of food.
>>
>>It used to be thought that one could not keep corals in an aquarium, but
>>with the knowlage available, it's easy. The next chanlange is a tank full
>>of the colorfull soft corals found deep in the ocean. Then instead of
>>lighing being the most important equipment, a chiller would be the most
>>important equipment.
>>
>>Wayne Sallee
>>Wayne's Pets

>>
>>
>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 3:44 PM:
>>
>>>Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
>>>in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water
>>>easily.
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>>>
>>>>When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>>>>of food that this algae was providing them.
>>>>
>>>>The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>>>>not the type of coras that we keep.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi;
>>>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>>>>where light is dim.
>>>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>>>>aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>>>>>stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>>>>algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
>>>>>part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>>>>zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>>>>>The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of
>>>>>colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>>>>>I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>>>>anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>>>>birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>>>>visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>>>>and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>>>
>>>>>jrs
>>>>>"TheRock" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>>>>Is live rock really live ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
>>>>>>micro fauna and algae.
>>>>>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>>>>>the light. 10,000K
>>>>>>
>>>>>>right ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>

[Jaime R-S]

much better dude!

jrs
"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Jaimy,
>
> Have you gotten your undergravel filter set up yet with the crushed
> dolomite on top?
>
> heheehehehehehehehe
>
> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 6:11 PM:
>> You do own or work at a pet shop, don't you?
>>
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>That's the next step in reef keeping, keeping colorfull deep water soft
>>>corals that don't like light, but require plenty of food.
>>>
>>>It used to be thought that one could not keep corals in an aquarium, but
>>>with the knowlage available, it's easy. The next chanlange is a tank full
>>>of the colorfull soft corals found deep in the ocean. Then instead of
>>>lighing being the most important equipment, a chiller would be the most
>>>important equipment.
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 3:44 PM:
>>>
>>>>Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
>>>>in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water
>>>>easily.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>>>>>of food that this algae was providing them.
>>>>>
>>>>>The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>>>>>not the type of coras that we keep.
>>>>>
>>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi;
>>>>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>>>>> where light is dim.
>>>>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>>>>> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>>>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>>>>>> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>>>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>>>>> algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing
>>>>>> its part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>>>>> zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>>>>>> The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss
>>>>>> of colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>>>>>>I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>>>>>anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>>>>>birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>>>>>visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>>>>>and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>jrs
>>>>>>"TheRock" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>>>>>Is live rock really live ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
>>>>>>>misc micro fauna and algae.
>>>>>>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>>>>>>the light. 10,000K
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>right ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>

[Jaime R-S]

Much better, stay like that

jrs
"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 6:09 PM:
>> Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with me.
>
> LOL you crack me up.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Yes I own a pet shop.
Infact if anyone wants to see a cool satalite viewing of
the store, go to http://earth.google.com/
and download the free version of google earth.

If y'all have not tryed it, you should, even if you are on
dial-up like me.
Then after installing the software, copy and paste the
following address:
449 Plaza Dr, Eustis, Fl 32726
and it will pull it right up. It will actualy show it in a
slightly different spot because of the weard way the road
and shopping center is addressed, the actual location is
28°49'28.07"N
81°41'29.13"W

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 6:11 PM:
> You do own or work at a pet shop, don't you?
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>That's the next step in reef keeping, keeping colorfull deep water soft
>>corals that don't like light, but require plenty of food.
>>
>>It used to be thought that one could not keep corals in an aquarium, but
>>with the knowlage available, it's easy. The next chanlange is a tank full
>>of the colorfull soft corals found deep in the ocean. Then instead of
>>lighing being the most important equipment, a chiller would be the most
>>important equipment.
>>
>>Wayne Sallee
>>Wayne's Pets

>>
>>
>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 3:44 PM:
>>
>>>Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
>>>in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water
>>>easily.
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>>>
>>>>When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>>>>of food that this algae was providing them.
>>>>
>>>>The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>>>>not the type of coras that we keep.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi;
>>>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>>>>where light is dim.
>>>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>>>>aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>>>>>stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>>>>algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
>>>>>part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>>>>zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>>>>>The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of
>>>>>colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>>>>>I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>>>>anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>>>>birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>>>>visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>>>>and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>>>
>>>>>jrs
>>>>>"TheRock" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>>>>Is live rock really live ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
>>>>>>micro fauna and algae.
>>>>>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>>>>>the light. 10,000K
>>>>>>
>>>>>>right ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

So you like that setup much better :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:38 PM:
> much better dude!
>
> jrs
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hey Jaimy,
>>
>>Have you gotten your undergravel filter set up yet with the crushed
>>dolomite on top?
>>
>>heheehehehehehehehe
>>
>>Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 6:11 PM:
>>
>>>You do own or work at a pet shop, don't you?
>>>
>>>"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>That's the next step in reef keeping, keeping colorfull deep water soft
>>>>corals that don't like light, but require plenty of food.
>>>>
>>>>It used to be thought that one could not keep corals in an aquarium, but
>>>>with the knowlage available, it's easy. The next chanlange is a tank full
>>>>of the colorfull soft corals found deep in the ocean. Then instead of
>>>>lighing being the most important equipment, a chiller would be the most
>>>>important equipment.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 3:44 PM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Also reef aquariums don't provide the large amount of plankton available
>>>>>in the ocean, and trying to imitate that much, can spoil the water
>>>>>easily.
>>>>>
>>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Wayne Sallee wrote on 2/25/2006 11:42 AM:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>>>>>>of food that this algae was providing them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>>>>>>not the type of coras that we keep.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi;
>>>>>>> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>>>>>>>where light is dim.
>>>>>>> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>>>>>>>aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>>>>>>> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
>>>>>>>stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>>>>>>> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>>>>>>>algae incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing
>>>>>>>its part of the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
>>>>>>>zooxanthella and will be able to live without it for periods of time.
>>>>>>>The drawback about not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss
>>>>>>>of colours, the main reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>>>>>>>I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>>>>>>>anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>>>>>>>birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>>>>>>>visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>>>>>>>and poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>jrs
>>>>>>>"TheRock" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>>>>>>>>Is live rock really live ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
>>>>>>>>misc micro fauna and algae.
>>>>>>>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>>>>>>>>the light. 10,000K
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>right ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>

[steve]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Yes I own a pet shop.
> Infact if anyone wants to see a cool satalite viewing of the store, go to
> http://earth.google.com/
> and download the free version of google earth.
>
> If y'all have not tryed it, you should, even if you are on dial-up like
> me.
> Then after installing the software, copy and paste the following address:
> 449 Plaza Dr, Eustis, Fl 32726
> and it will pull it right up. It will actualy show it in a slightly
> different spot because of the weard way the road and shopping center is
> addressed, the actual location is
> 28°49'28.07"N
> 81°41'29.13"W
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>>
Thanks for the link. The pics of the houses are a year+ out of date.

[Jaime R-S]

I have to yield, although I am working in such a system, it is still in
"test tubes"
All I have to say is that my system costs not more than $500 and every day I
cut down on the price.
Is OK, you keep spending your money, I am fine with that!

"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Sat, 25 Feb 2006:
>> Of course, you benefit from your client's buying those expensive fixtures
>> making you a parasite. I wonder if your clients know that you make them
>> buy
>> expensive equipments that serve no purpose.
>
> Reef keepers have found that they can keep SPS (small-polyped stony)
> corals,
> when placed under high-intensity metal halide lighting. The corals thrive
> and
> grow.
>
> You claim that the lighting isn't important. Can you tell me then, what
> kind
> of setup you've found that will cause fast and lush growth of Acropora,
> etc.
> -- but without intense lighting?
>
> Forget about your theories of the ocean. People have succeeded in
> captivity
> using bright lights. Have you succeeded without them? That would be the
> first
> I've ever heard.
>
>> Light down there uses no BALLAST OR EXPENSIVE FIXTURES. It is just
>> natural
>> sunlight, the same one that can be reproduce in your living room with
>> inexpensive lights.
>
> Uh...no. You might be able to reproduce the spectrum of natural sunlight
> with
> "inexpensive lights", but you can't come close to the intensity. The sun
> is
> incredibly bright, and even the expensive MH reef keeping lights we use in
> the
> hobby don't come anywhere near the intensity of natural sunlight.
>
>> Of course, if you want it to look pretty, the $500 investment is worst
>> it.
>> But please, don't tell anyone that those lights are needed other than for
>> aesthetic purposes'.
>
> Twenty years ago, nobody could keep SPS corals alive in aquaria. Now they
> can get robust growth out of them. The significant change has been bright
> lighting.
>
> If you have a different trick, that nobody else in the world seems to
> know,
> please let us know how to raise SPS corals without lighting!
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis
> http://reef.geddis.org/
> Somebody told me it was frightening how much topsoil we are losing each
> year,
> but I told that story around the campfire and nobody got scared.
> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[Harry Ohanian]

Christ, all I wanted to know is if I can put live rock in my sump and not
have to worry about lights.
Now I'm not sure if I ever got a rsonse to it?

Harry

"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Mon, 27 Feb 2006:
>> I have to yield, although I am working in such a system, it is still in
>> "test tubes"
>
> OK, at least we have that straight.
>
>> All I have to say is that my system costs not more than $500 and every
>> day
>> I cut down on the price. Is OK, you keep spending your money, I am fine
>> with that!
>
> But you're writing that as though there is an alternative. Which you
> admit
> you're not (yet?) providing.
>
> So what am I supposed to do? I want to grow stony corals. I know that if
> I
> put them under bright MH lights, they'll grow great. You claim that light
> isn't important, yet you offer me no alternative.
>
> At this point, I don't even care whether your alternative is cheap or
> expensive (although of course cheap is an added bonus). I don't know of
> anyone
> that has successfully grown stony corals without very bright lights.
>
> Why do you complain so much on this group, if you don't have anything to
> say?
> Let's say that you've completely convinced me. Lights don't matter. Yet
> I
> want to grow stony corals. What alternative are you suggesting to me?
> They
> grow if I have the bright lights. They die if I take the lights away.
> It's
> kind of silly of you to say that the lights aren't necessary. Especially
> if
> you refuse to provide a working alternative.
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis
> http://reef.geddis.org/
> In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would
> be
> perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might
> start to
> rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics
> classrooms. -- Stephen Jay Gould

[~Roy~]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:10:47 -0600, "Harry Ohanian"
> wrote:
>><>Christ, all I wanted to know is if I can put live rock in my sump and not
>><>have to worry about lights.
>><>Now I'm not sure if I ever got a rsonse to it?
>><>
>><>Harry
snip

No, live rock does not require lights for it to do what its intended
to do in a fuge / sump, however where this forum got off the track is
what would happen in any other online forum as well., They all got off
the beaten track and started in on the coraline algae will die as
will other critters that are dependant on light...But NO you do not
need light for it to act as a filter, bacteria in it is not light
dependant.
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Jaime R-S]

OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent debate to
see if we all learn.
I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but untill ALL
my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my system, I
will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some information
flourishes for the benefit of all.
If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread, all you
have to do is to ignore my messages.
jrs
"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Mon, 27 Feb 2006:
>> I have to yield, although I am working in such a system, it is still in
>> "test tubes"
>
> OK, at least we have that straight.
>
>> All I have to say is that my system costs not more than $500 and every
>> day
>> I cut down on the price. Is OK, you keep spending your money, I am fine
>> with that!
>
> But you're writing that as though there is an alternative. Which you
> admit
> you're not (yet?) providing.
>
> So what am I supposed to do? I want to grow stony corals. I know that if
> I
> put them under bright MH lights, they'll grow great. You claim that light
> isn't important, yet you offer me no alternative.
>
> At this point, I don't even care whether your alternative is cheap or
> expensive (although of course cheap is an added bonus). I don't know of
> anyone
> that has successfully grown stony corals without very bright lights.
>
> Why do you complain so much on this group, if you don't have anything to
> say?
> Let's say that you've completely convinced me. Lights don't matter. Yet
> I
> want to grow stony corals. What alternative are you suggesting to me?
> They
> grow if I have the bright lights. They die if I take the lights away.
> It's
> kind of silly of you to say that the lights aren't necessary. Especially
> if
> you refuse to provide a working alternative.
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis
> http://reef.geddis.org/
> In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would
> be
> perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might
> start to
> rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics
> classrooms. -- Stephen Jay Gould

[Jaime R-S]

Thanks Roy! I agree with you

jrs
"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:10:47 -0600, "Harry Ohanian"
> > wrote:
>>><>Christ, all I wanted to know is if I can put live rock in my sump and
>>>not
>>><>have to worry about lights.
>>><>Now I'm not sure if I ever got a rsonse to it?
>>><>
>>><>Harry
> snip
>
> No, live rock does not require lights for it to do what its intended
> to do in a fuge / sump, however where this forum got off the track is
> what would happen in any other online forum as well., They all got off
> the beaten track and started in on the coraline algae will die as
> will other critters that are dependant on light...But NO you do not
> need light for it to act as a filter, bacteria in it is not light
> dependant.
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Harry Ohanian]

Thank You

"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:10:47 -0600, "Harry Ohanian"
> > wrote:
>>><>Christ, all I wanted to know is if I can put live rock in my sump and
>>>not
>>><>have to worry about lights.
>>><>Now I'm not sure if I ever got a rsonse to it?
>>><>
>>><>Harry
> snip
>
> No, live rock does not require lights for it to do what its intended
> to do in a fuge / sump, however where this forum got off the track is
> what would happen in any other online forum as well., They all got off
> the beaten track and started in on the coraline algae will die as
> will other critters that are dependant on light...But NO you do not
> need light for it to act as a filter, bacteria in it is not light
> dependant.
> --
> \\\|///
> ( @ @ )
> -----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------
>
>
> oooO
> ---------( )----Oooo----------------
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
> The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Don Geddis]

"Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
> OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.

You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly buying all
these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get no benefit
from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to spend so much
money on something that is useless.

> This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent debate to
> see if we all learn.

I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.

Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from this,
other than that you are just a quack?

OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in my
aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the corals grow
much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights off, and
the same corals wither and die.

I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the corals
receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just trying to
grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright lights.

You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics (despite
empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING constructive
to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't yet seen
you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow. If I
turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I do, at this
point in time?

> I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but untill ALL
> my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.

If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all foolish
to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
alternative setup.

> Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my system, I
> will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some information
> flourishes for the benefit of all.

Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make fun of
the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to provide any
information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore the
widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under bright
lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology, but you
have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony corals
when using bright lights.

> If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread, all you
> have to do is to ignore my messages.

I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some poor
lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're stating
consensus opinion.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
-- John Kenneth Galbraith

[Jaime R-S]

Let me cool down a little and try to explain myself. With pointless
arguements noone learns anything.
1. I don't say that is stupid to build on your lighting system. What I said
is that you can accomplish the same in cheaper ways. Do a cost-benefit
analysis to see if your investment is producing results worst the money. If
it isn't, then you are wasting your capital.
2. The point is not to compare the extremes, light vs darkness. There is
such a thing as enough light or too much light, specialy if it costs a lot
of money. Of course light is necessary, without light stony corals won't
last long. My point was the amount of it...

Last;
My position is that expensive lights are overrated unless you have a
huge room-size Aquarium or if your aquarium is the centerpiece of your
living room and the most important part of it. If your living room or
family room was built around your aquarium, then you have to spent thousands
of dollars iluminating it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding...

jrs

"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
>> OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
>
> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly buying
> all
> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get no
> benefit
> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to spend so
> much
> money on something that is useless.
>
>> This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent debate
>> to
>> see if we all learn.
>
> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
>
> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from this,
> other than that you are just a quack?
>
> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in my
> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the corals
> grow
> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights off,
> and
> the same corals wither and die.
>
> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the corals
> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just trying
> to
> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright lights.
>
> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics (despite
> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
> constructive
> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't yet
> seen
> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow. If I
> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I do, at
> this
> point in time?
>
>> I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but untill
>> ALL
>> my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
>
> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
> foolish
> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
> alternative setup.
>
>> Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my system, I
>> will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
>> information
>> flourishes for the benefit of all.
>
> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make fun
> of
> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to provide
> any
> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore the
> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under
> bright
> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology, but
> you
> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony
> corals
> when using bright lights.
>
>> If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread, all
>> you
>> have to do is to ignore my messages.
>
> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some poor
> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're stating
> consensus opinion.
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis
> http://reef.geddis.org/
> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
> opposite.
> -- John Kenneth Galbraith

[George Patterson]

Jaime R-S wrote:

> My position is that expensive lights are overrated unless you have a
> huge room-size Aquarium or if your aquarium is the centerpiece of your
> living room and the most important part of it.

Fine. I have a 125 gallon tank. What lighting do you suggest? It currently has
four 36" flourescent bulbs.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Jaime R-S]

An aquarist will answer that better than me. It all depends on the uses of
your aquarium. If it is the centerpiece of the room, an investment of $500
is worst it.
In the other hand, if your aquarium compliments your deco, go with four
corner lights and a submerged center lighted deco, fluorescent of course,
they will provide enough light for everything in your system to "live long
and prosper". That arrange can cost up to $200 total. The other day I saw
a retrofit system for $45, 36"

jrs

jrs
"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:kArNf.7239$d61.1273@trnddc05...
> Jaime R-S wrote:
>
>> My position is that expensive lights are overrated unless you have a
>> huge room-size Aquarium or if your aquarium is the centerpiece of your
>> living room and the most important part of it.
>
> Fine. I have a 125 gallon tank. What lighting do you suggest? It currently
> has four 36" flourescent bulbs.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[Wayne Sallee]

And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef
tank in his entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an
expert.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
>
>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
>
>
> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly buying all
> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get no benefit
> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to spend so much
> money on something that is useless.
>
>
>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent debate to
>>see if we all learn.
>
>
> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
>
> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from this,
> other than that you are just a quack?
>
> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in my
> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the corals grow
> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights off, and
> the same corals wither and die.
>
> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the corals
> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just trying to
> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright lights.
>
> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics (despite
> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING constructive
> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't yet seen
> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow. If I
> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I do, at this
> point in time?
>
>
>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but untill ALL
>>my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
>
>
> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all foolish
> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
> alternative setup.
>
>
>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my system, I
>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some information
>>flourishes for the benefit of all.
>
>
> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make fun of
> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to provide any
> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore the
> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under bright
> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology, but you
> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony corals
> when using bright lights.
>
>
>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread, all you
>>have to do is to ignore my messages.
>
>
> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some poor
> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're stating
> consensus opinion.
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
> -- John Kenneth Galbraith

[Don Geddis]

"Jaime R-S" > wrote on Wed, 1 Mar 2006 :
> 1. I don't say that is stupid to build on your lighting system. What I said
> is that you can accomplish the same in cheaper ways. Do a cost-benefit
> analysis to see if your investment is producing results worst the money. If
> it isn't, then you are wasting your capital.

But I'm still waiting for details. Let's say I want to try it your way.
What, exactly, do I do? How, exactly, do I "accomplish the same [thing] in
cheaper ways", as you claim?

The standard suggestion, for those who want to grow stony corals, is to install
metal halide lights (which are expensive, and hot). It seems pretty clear that
if you take a tank that just had a little fluorescent lighting, and you add
an MH bulb, the stony corals grow faster/more colorful.

You're claiming that you can achieve the same results without the MH lighting
(and much cheaper to boot). Cool! I love the concept.

So, how does it work? So far, the ONLY thing I've heard from you is "don't
install the MH lighting". But if that's the only change, they you're clearly
just wrong. There's pretty much no question that if you take a standard
off-the-shelf tank, with typical recommended maintenance, and you compare one
tank with an additional MH bulb vs. another tank without, the tank with the
extra lighting will grow stony corals much better.

So surely you have in mind some OTHER change besides simply not using the
lighting. Can you tell us any of the details? Even a hint?

Because clearly if your advice is simply "everybody should turn off their
bright (MH) lights, change nothing else, and corals will grow just as well"
then you're simply wrong.

So I hope you have more to offer than that.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/

[Jaime R-S]

Thank you for the compliment buy I am no expert..
I am just a marine biologist who thinks that the average aquarist spends too
much money in systems.
7 out of ten SW aquariums I've checked have and over budget of more than
50%.
In other words, you are spending in too many things you don't need or that
you can get in a different way.

If you fill good with wasting your money, go right ahead, your life is not
going to change...

jrs
"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef tank in his
> entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an expert.
>
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
>> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
>>
>>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
>>
>>
>> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly buying
>> all
>> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get no
>> benefit
>> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to spend
>> so much
>> money on something that is useless.
>>
>>
>>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent debate
>>>to see if we all learn.
>>
>>
>> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
>>
>> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from
>> this,
>> other than that you are just a quack?
>>
>> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in my
>> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the corals
>> grow
>> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights off,
>> and
>> the same corals wither and die.
>>
>> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the corals
>> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just trying
>> to
>> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright lights.
>>
>> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics (despite
>> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
>> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
>> constructive
>> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't yet
>> seen
>> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow. If
>> I
>> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I do,
>> at this
>> point in time?
>>
>>
>>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but untill
>>>ALL my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
>>
>>
>> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
>> foolish
>> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
>> alternative setup.
>>
>>
>>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my system, I
>>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
>>>information flourishes for the benefit of all.
>>
>>
>> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make fun
>> of
>> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to provide
>> any
>> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore the
>> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under
>> bright
>> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology, but
>> you
>> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony
>> corals
>> when using bright lights.
>>
>>
>>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread, all
>>>you have to do is to ignore my messages.
>>
>>
>> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some poor
>> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're stating
>> consensus opinion.
>>
>> -- Don
>> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>> Don Geddis
>> http://reef.geddis.org/
>> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
>> opposite.
>> -- John Kenneth Galbraith

[Jaime R-S]

Let me put it this way, what you are asking from me is to tell you my
findings... that is not going to happen yet, have more testing to do...
As for the coral, I have news for you!
Do you think that having a healthy coral is the main goal of an aquarium,
well, sorry, that is not the case unless you want a permanently growing
stone in your tank...
That is OK for aquaculturists that grow coral to sell but if you have a
Porites spp in your tank, you don't want it to grow too much...
You see, the only way to keep a coral on check in your tank without over
growing it is by maintaning limiting factors for it, like growing a
bonzai...
I just don't see how in the world you want that rock to keep growing and
growing. The Japanese cultivated bonzais so they could take a huge tree
inside their house and because of the mental challenge that was maintaning
it...
A reef aquarium is the same way, having corals growing and growing should
not be the purpose of your aquarium...

If you disagree with me or not it makes no difference, because you are doing
something good, you are putting food in the table of petshop owners by
buying their stuff...

jrs

"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Wed, 1 Mar 2006 :
>> 1. I don't say that is stupid to build on your lighting system. What I
>> said
>> is that you can accomplish the same in cheaper ways. Do a cost-benefit
>> analysis to see if your investment is producing results worst the money.
>> If
>> it isn't, then you are wasting your capital.
>
> But I'm still waiting for details. Let's say I want to try it your way.
> What, exactly, do I do? How, exactly, do I "accomplish the same [thing]
> in
> cheaper ways", as you claim?
>
> The standard suggestion, for those who want to grow stony corals, is to
> install
> metal halide lights (which are expensive, and hot). It seems pretty clear
> that
> if you take a tank that just had a little fluorescent lighting, and you
> add
> an MH bulb, the stony corals grow faster/more colorful.
>
> You're claiming that you can achieve the same results without the MH
> lighting
> (and much cheaper to boot). Cool! I love the concept.
>
> So, how does it work? So far, the ONLY thing I've heard from you is
> "don't
> install the MH lighting". But if that's the only change, they you're
> clearly
> just wrong. There's pretty much no question that if you take a standard
> off-the-shelf tank, with typical recommended maintenance, and you compare
> one
> tank with an additional MH bulb vs. another tank without, the tank with
> the
> extra lighting will grow stony corals much better.
>
> So surely you have in mind some OTHER change besides simply not using the
> lighting. Can you tell us any of the details? Even a hint?
>
> Because clearly if your advice is simply "everybody should turn off their
> bright (MH) lights, change nothing else, and corals will grow just as
> well"
> then you're simply wrong.
>
> So I hope you have more to offer than that.
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis
> http://reef.geddis.org/

[David Zopf]

"Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
...
> Let me put it this way, what you are asking from me is to tell you my
> findings... that is not going to happen yet, have more testing to do...

So, if you're honest with yourself, then your answer to Don should be; 'No,
I have nothing I can offer today, as an alternative to MH lighting', and the
rest of your post is trivial...

> As for the coral, I have news for you!
> Do you think that having a healthy coral is the main goal of an aquarium,
> well, sorry, that is not the case unless you want a permanently growing
> stone in your tank...

Pzsemol was right, you really _don't_ understand your audience in an
aquarium forum, do you..? To the extent that most aquarists actually _do_
want their captive biosphere to mimic the real thing, you are most certainly
wrong, growing out corals is largely the point, even if the consequences of
such are troublesome to deal with.

> That is OK for aquaculturists that grow coral to sell but if you have a
> Porites spp in your tank, you don't want it to grow too much...
> You see, the only way to keep a coral on check in your tank without over
> growing it is by maintaning limiting factors for it, like growing a
> bonzai...

The pruning aspect of bonsai cultivation is in some ways an apt comparison
for the reef aquarium... A healthily-growing coral aquaium will need to be
"pruned" (or harvested, or split, or otherwise propagated), eventually...
similar to a bonsai, or any other cultivated plant for that matter.

> I just don't see how in the world you want that rock to keep growing and
> growing. The Japanese cultivated bonzais so they could take a huge tree
> inside their house and because of the mental challenge that was maintaning
> it...

A huge tree..? Bonsai are supposed to mimic natural trees of a larger
scale, but they are themselves smaller species of shrubs. Here, your
analogy is failing. A responsible captive reef aquarium avoids those
species which are unable to contain their growth, or which cannot thrive in
closed quarters.

> A reef aquarium is the same way, having corals growing and growing should
> not be the purpose of your aquarium...
>
Fair warning if the commercial success of your "research" is hinging upon
this concept; a large part of the allure of reef aquaria is when what is in
the tank mimics nature to as large an extent as possible. For _many_
hobbyists, a growth-inhibited (static) reef system might as well be dead,
bleached, and repainted to "look alive". How could you have missed the
massive body of writings on efforts to _promote_ coral growth and
propagation, or misread its intent? That work isn't there so that people
can make a profit, it is there because dealing with the growth is a
rewarding aspect of the hobby, an indication that the aquarist is "doing it
right". The typical reef aquarist I've met isn't looking for a living room
centerpiece to replace a static piece of artwork (an erroneous assumption I
think you are working from), they're trying to reproduce a small piece of
nature on a smaller scale.

> If you disagree with me or not it makes no difference,

Agreement or disagreement of aquarists may make more difference to you than
you seem to have considered... If your research or insights are somehow
intended (directly, or indirectly) for the benefit of an aquarist, one would
think that their opinion on this topic would hold _some_ relevance to you,
hmmm...?

> because you are doing something good, you are putting food in the table of
> petshop owners by buying their stuff...
>
Again with the "money-wasting" thing. Its a hobby, Jaime... A hobby's very
_purpose_ is enrichment/entertainment through the use of recreational (read:
dispensable) income. And yet again, how can you honestly label MH lamps as
money "wasted", if there is no working alternative available to the
aquarist?


As a researcher in polymer science, generally speaking I find you habit of
dangling a supposed "cost-savings" in front of an interested public
_incredibly_ distasteful. I have a myriad of research programs which could
also offer cost savings and/or real living benefits to various groups and
populations, and I keep them _all_ under wraps until they are fully ready to
be commercialized. In fact, since most of these programs work through sales
to intermediary companies, my contributions will often never be known by
those whom they benefit. Such is the career of a researcher... at least I'm
well paid :-) and I havethe satisfaction that I've contributed to projects
that have done some real good in the world.
The point is, until you can _actually deliver_ on a promise of cost
savings, and back it up with data you can share (or point to a commercially
available product which makes use of your findings) "money wasting" comments
such as these amount to just so much "I've got a secret" grade-school
playground nonsense.

Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

[William Marsh]

Very well writen David and you hit the nail on the head, It is a hobby
challenge, relaxing,beautiful, rewarding, gratifying, Let see did I miss any
other reasons. even the plumbing and building of sumps and wiring.
Bill
"David Zopf" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Let me put it this way, what you are asking from me is to tell you my
>> findings... that is not going to happen yet, have more testing to do...
>
> So, if you're honest with yourself, then your answer to Don should be;
> 'No, I have nothing I can offer today, as an alternative to MH lighting',
> and the rest of your post is trivial...
>
>> As for the coral, I have news for you!
>> Do you think that having a healthy coral is the main goal of an aquarium,
>> well, sorry, that is not the case unless you want a permanently growing
>> stone in your tank...
>
> Pzsemol was right, you really _don't_ understand your audience in an
> aquarium forum, do you..? To the extent that most aquarists actually _do_
> want their captive biosphere to mimic the real thing, you are most
> certainly wrong, growing out corals is largely the point, even if the
> consequences of such are troublesome to deal with.
>
>> That is OK for aquaculturists that grow coral to sell but if you have a
>> Porites spp in your tank, you don't want it to grow too much...
>> You see, the only way to keep a coral on check in your tank without over
>> growing it is by maintaning limiting factors for it, like growing a
>> bonzai...
>
> The pruning aspect of bonsai cultivation is in some ways an apt comparison
> for the reef aquarium... A healthily-growing coral aquaium will need to
> be "pruned" (or harvested, or split, or otherwise propagated),
> eventually... similar to a bonsai, or any other cultivated plant for that
> matter.
>
>> I just don't see how in the world you want that rock to keep growing and
>> growing. The Japanese cultivated bonzais so they could take a huge tree
>> inside their house and because of the mental challenge that was
>> maintaning it...
>
> A huge tree..? Bonsai are supposed to mimic natural trees of a larger
> scale, but they are themselves smaller species of shrubs. Here, your
> analogy is failing. A responsible captive reef aquarium avoids those
> species which are unable to contain their growth, or which cannot thrive
> in closed quarters.
>
>> A reef aquarium is the same way, having corals growing and growing should
>> not be the purpose of your aquarium...
>>
> Fair warning if the commercial success of your "research" is hinging upon
> this concept; a large part of the allure of reef aquaria is when what is
> in the tank mimics nature to as large an extent as possible. For _many_
> hobbyists, a growth-inhibited (static) reef system might as well be dead,
> bleached, and repainted to "look alive". How could you have missed the
> massive body of writings on efforts to _promote_ coral growth and
> propagation, or misread its intent? That work isn't there so that people
> can make a profit, it is there because dealing with the growth is a
> rewarding aspect of the hobby, an indication that the aquarist is "doing
> it right". The typical reef aquarist I've met isn't looking for a living
> room centerpiece to replace a static piece of artwork (an erroneous
> assumption I think you are working from), they're trying to reproduce a
> small piece of nature on a smaller scale.
>
>> If you disagree with me or not it makes no difference,
>
> Agreement or disagreement of aquarists may make more difference to you
> than you seem to have considered... If your research or insights are
> somehow intended (directly, or indirectly) for the benefit of an aquarist,
> one would think that their opinion on this topic would hold _some_
> relevance to you, hmmm...?
>
>> because you are doing something good, you are putting food in the table
>> of petshop owners by buying their stuff...
>>
> Again with the "money-wasting" thing. Its a hobby, Jaime... A hobby's
> very _purpose_ is enrichment/entertainment through the use of recreational
> (read: dispensable) income. And yet again, how can you honestly label MH
> lamps as money "wasted", if there is no working alternative available to
> the aquarist?
>
>
> As a researcher in polymer science, generally speaking I find you habit of
> dangling a supposed "cost-savings" in front of an interested public
> _incredibly_ distasteful. I have a myriad of research programs which
> could also offer cost savings and/or real living benefits to various
> groups and populations, and I keep them _all_ under wraps until they are
> fully ready to be commercialized. In fact, since most of these programs
> work through sales to intermediary companies, my contributions will often
> never be known by those whom they benefit. Such is the career of a
> researcher... at least I'm well paid :-) and I havethe satisfaction that
> I've contributed to projects that have done some real good in the world.
> The point is, until you can _actually deliver_ on a promise of cost
> savings, and back it up with data you can share (or point to a
> commercially available product which makes use of your findings) "money
> wasting" comments such as these amount to just so much "I've got a secret"
> grade-school playground nonsense.
>
> Regards,
> DaveZ
> Atom Weaver
>
>

[Jaime R-S]

I have to agree with you in most of your post. Yes, we have different views
on what is the main objective on having a piece of reef in your house and
that is not going to change any time soon.
I guess, I am in the wrong newsgroup.

jrs
"David Zopf" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Let me put it this way, what you are asking from me is to tell you my
>> findings... that is not going to happen yet, have more testing to do...
>
> So, if you're honest with yourself, then your answer to Don should be;
> 'No, I have nothing I can offer today, as an alternative to MH lighting',
> and the rest of your post is trivial...
>
>> As for the coral, I have news for you!
>> Do you think that having a healthy coral is the main goal of an aquarium,
>> well, sorry, that is not the case unless you want a permanently growing
>> stone in your tank...
>
> Pzsemol was right, you really _don't_ understand your audience in an
> aquarium forum, do you..? To the extent that most aquarists actually _do_
> want their captive biosphere to mimic the real thing, you are most
> certainly wrong, growing out corals is largely the point, even if the
> consequences of such are troublesome to deal with.
>
>> That is OK for aquaculturists that grow coral to sell but if you have a
>> Porites spp in your tank, you don't want it to grow too much...
>> You see, the only way to keep a coral on check in your tank without over
>> growing it is by maintaning limiting factors for it, like growing a
>> bonzai...
>
> The pruning aspect of bonsai cultivation is in some ways an apt comparison
> for the reef aquarium... A healthily-growing coral aquaium will need to
> be "pruned" (or harvested, or split, or otherwise propagated),
> eventually... similar to a bonsai, or any other cultivated plant for that
> matter.
>
>> I just don't see how in the world you want that rock to keep growing and
>> growing. The Japanese cultivated bonzais so they could take a huge tree
>> inside their house and because of the mental challenge that was
>> maintaning it...
>
> A huge tree..? Bonsai are supposed to mimic natural trees of a larger
> scale, but they are themselves smaller species of shrubs. Here, your
> analogy is failing. A responsible captive reef aquarium avoids those
> species which are unable to contain their growth, or which cannot thrive
> in closed quarters.
>
>> A reef aquarium is the same way, having corals growing and growing should
>> not be the purpose of your aquarium...
>>
> Fair warning if the commercial success of your "research" is hinging upon
> this concept; a large part of the allure of reef aquaria is when what is
> in the tank mimics nature to as large an extent as possible. For _many_
> hobbyists, a growth-inhibited (static) reef system might as well be dead,
> bleached, and repainted to "look alive". How could you have missed the
> massive body of writings on efforts to _promote_ coral growth and
> propagation, or misread its intent? That work isn't there so that people
> can make a profit, it is there because dealing with the growth is a
> rewarding aspect of the hobby, an indication that the aquarist is "doing
> it right". The typical reef aquarist I've met isn't looking for a living
> room centerpiece to replace a static piece of artwork (an erroneous
> assumption I think you are working from), they're trying to reproduce a
> small piece of nature on a smaller scale.
>
>> If you disagree with me or not it makes no difference,
>
> Agreement or disagreement of aquarists may make more difference to you
> than you seem to have considered... If your research or insights are
> somehow intended (directly, or indirectly) for the benefit of an aquarist,
> one would think that their opinion on this topic would hold _some_
> relevance to you, hmmm...?
>
>> because you are doing something good, you are putting food in the table
>> of petshop owners by buying their stuff...
>>
> Again with the "money-wasting" thing. Its a hobby, Jaime... A hobby's
> very _purpose_ is enrichment/entertainment through the use of recreational
> (read: dispensable) income. And yet again, how can you honestly label MH
> lamps as money "wasted", if there is no working alternative available to
> the aquarist?
>
>
> As a researcher in polymer science, generally speaking I find you habit of
> dangling a supposed "cost-savings" in front of an interested public
> _incredibly_ distasteful. I have a myriad of research programs which
> could also offer cost savings and/or real living benefits to various
> groups and populations, and I keep them _all_ under wraps until they are
> fully ready to be commercialized. In fact, since most of these programs
> work through sales to intermediary companies, my contributions will often
> never be known by those whom they benefit. Such is the career of a
> researcher... at least I'm well paid :-) and I havethe satisfaction that
> I've contributed to projects that have done some real good in the world.
> The point is, until you can _actually deliver_ on a promise of cost
> savings, and back it up with data you can share (or point to a
> commercially available product which makes use of your findings) "money
> wasting" comments such as these amount to just so much "I've got a secret"
> grade-school playground nonsense.
>
> Regards,
> DaveZ
> Atom Weaver
>
>

[Boomer]

"I am just a marine biologist "

That is the funniest thing I have every heard. And I'm the CEO of Microsoft and before
that I was president of the US

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
...
: Thank you for the compliment buy I am no expert..
: I am just a marine biologist who thinks that the average aquarist spends too
: much money in systems.
: 7 out of ten SW aquariums I've checked have and over budget of more than
: 50%.
: In other words, you are spending in too many things you don't need or that
: you can get in a different way.
:
: If you fill good with wasting your money, go right ahead, your life is not
: going to change...
:
: jrs
: "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
: ...
: > And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef tank in his
: > entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an expert.
: >
: >
: > Wayne Sallee
: > Wayne's Pets
: >
: >
: >
: > Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
: >> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
: >>
: >>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
: >>
: >>
: >> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly buying
: >> all
: >> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get no
: >> benefit
: >> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to spend
: >> so much
: >> money on something that is useless.
: >>
: >>
: >>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent debate
: >>>to see if we all learn.
: >>
: >>
: >> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
: >>
: >> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from
: >> this,
: >> other than that you are just a quack?
: >>
: >> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in my
: >> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the corals
: >> grow
: >> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights off,
: >> and
: >> the same corals wither and die.
: >>
: >> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the corals
: >> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just trying
: >> to
: >> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright lights.
: >>
: >> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics (despite
: >> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
: >> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
: >> constructive
: >> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't yet
: >> seen
: >> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow. If
: >> I
: >> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I do,
: >> at this
: >> point in time?
: >>
: >>
: >>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but untill
: >>>ALL my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
: >>
: >>
: >> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
: >> foolish
: >> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
: >> alternative setup.
: >>
: >>
: >>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my system, I
: >>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
: >>>information flourishes for the benefit of all.
: >>
: >>
: >> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make fun
: >> of
: >> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to provide
: >> any
: >> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore the
: >> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under
: >> bright
: >> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology, but
: >> you
: >> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony
: >> corals
: >> when using bright lights.
: >>
: >>
: >>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread, all
: >>>you have to do is to ignore my messages.
: >>
: >>
: >> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some poor
: >> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're stating
: >> consensus opinion.
: >>
: >> -- Don
: >> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
: >> Don Geddis
: >> http://reef.geddis.org/
: >> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
: >> opposite.
: >> -- John Kenneth Galbraith
:
:

[J R-S]

Why are you so temperamental about what I said?
Have you just realized that you are acting as a fool spending big money on a
system that enslaves you?
poor thing!

jrs
"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> "I am just a marine biologist "
>
> That is the funniest thing I have every heard. And I'm the CEO of
> Microsoft and before
> that I was president of the US
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>
> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
> http://www.coralrealm.com
>
>
>
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
> ...
> : Thank you for the compliment buy I am no expert..
> : I am just a marine biologist who thinks that the average aquarist spends
> too
> : much money in systems.
> : 7 out of ten SW aquariums I've checked have and over budget of more than
> : 50%.
> : In other words, you are spending in too many things you don't need or
> that
> : you can get in a different way.
> :
> : If you fill good with wasting your money, go right ahead, your life is
> not
> : going to change...
> :
> : jrs
> : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef tank in his
> : > entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an expert.
> : >
> : >
> : > Wayne Sallee
> : > Wayne's Pets
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
> : >> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
> : >>
> : >>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly
> buying
> : >> all
> : >> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get
> no
> : >> benefit
> : >> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to
> spend
> : >> so much
> : >> money on something that is useless.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent
> debate
> : >>>to see if we all learn.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
> : >>
> : >> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from
> : >> this,
> : >> other than that you are just a quack?
> : >>
> : >> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in
> my
> : >> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the
> corals
> : >> grow
> : >> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights
> off,
> : >> and
> : >> the same corals wither and die.
> : >>
> : >> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the
> corals
> : >> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just
> trying
> : >> to
> : >> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright
> lights.
> : >>
> : >> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics
> (despite
> : >> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
> : >> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
> : >> constructive
> : >> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't
> yet
> : >> seen
> : >> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow.
> If
> : >> I
> : >> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I
> do,
> : >> at this
> : >> point in time?
> : >>
> : >>
> : >>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but
> untill
> : >>>ALL my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
> : >> foolish
> : >> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
> : >> alternative setup.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my
> system, I
> : >>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
> : >>>information flourishes for the benefit of all.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make
> fun
> : >> of
> : >> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to
> provide
> : >> any
> : >> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore
> the
> : >> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under
> : >> bright
> : >> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology,
> but
> : >> you
> : >> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony
> : >> corals
> : >> when using bright lights.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread,
> all
> : >>>you have to do is to ignore my messages.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some
> poor
> : >> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're
> stating
> : >> consensus opinion.
> : >>
> : >> -- Don
> : >>
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> : >> Don Geddis
> : >> http://reef.geddis.org/
> : >> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
> : >> opposite.
> : >> -- John Kenneth Galbraith
> :
> :
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Just because you can't afford to spend the needed money on
a properly setup tank does not mean that people are
foolish to enjoy theirs.

But you can always go to our web sites, and drool over the
pictures :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



J R-S wrote on 3/14/2006 8:13 PM:
> Why are you so temperamental about what I said?
> Have you just realized that you are acting as a fool spending big money on a
> system that enslaves you?
> poor thing!
>
> jrs
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "I am just a marine biologist "
>>
>> That is the funniest thing I have every heard. And I'm the CEO of
>> Microsoft and before
>> that I was president of the US
>>
>> --
>> Boomer
>>
>> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>>
>> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
>> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>>
>> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
>> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>>
>> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
>> http://www.coralrealm.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> : Thank you for the compliment buy I am no expert..
>> : I am just a marine biologist who thinks that the average aquarist spends
>> too
>> : much money in systems.
>> : 7 out of ten SW aquariums I've checked have and over budget of more than
>> : 50%.
>> : In other words, you are spending in too many things you don't need or
>> that
>> : you can get in a different way.
>> :
>> : If you fill good with wasting your money, go right ahead, your life is
>> not
>> : going to change...
>> :
>> : jrs
>> : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> : ...
>> : > And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef tank in his
>> : > entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an expert.
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Wayne Sallee
>> : > Wayne's Pets
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
>> : >> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
>> : >>
>> : >>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly
>> buying
>> : >> all
>> : >> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get
>> no
>> : >> benefit
>> : >> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to
>> spend
>> : >> so much
>> : >> money on something that is useless.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent
>> debate
>> : >>>to see if we all learn.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
>> : >>
>> : >> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from
>> : >> this,
>> : >> other than that you are just a quack?
>> : >>
>> : >> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in
>> my
>> : >> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the
>> corals
>> : >> grow
>> : >> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights
>> off,
>> : >> and
>> : >> the same corals wither and die.
>> : >>
>> : >> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the
>> corals
>> : >> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just
>> trying
>> : >> to
>> : >> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright
>> lights.
>> : >>
>> : >> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics
>> (despite
>> : >> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
>> : >> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
>> : >> constructive
>> : >> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't
>> yet
>> : >> seen
>> : >> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow.
>> If
>> : >> I
>> : >> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I
>> do,
>> : >> at this
>> : >> point in time?
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but
>> untill
>> : >>>ALL my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
>> : >> foolish
>> : >> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
>> : >> alternative setup.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my
>> system, I
>> : >>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
>> : >>>information flourishes for the benefit of all.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make
>> fun
>> : >> of
>> : >> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to
>> provide
>> : >> any
>> : >> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore
>> the
>> : >> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under
>> : >> bright
>> : >> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology,
>> but
>> : >> you
>> : >> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony
>> : >> corals
>> : >> when using bright lights.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread,
>> all
>> : >>>you have to do is to ignore my messages.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some
>> poor
>> : >> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're
>> stating
>> : >> consensus opinion.
>> : >>
>> : >> -- Don
>> : >>
>> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>> : >> Don Geddis
>> : >> http://reef.geddis.org/
>> : >> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
>> : >> opposite.
>> : >> -- John Kenneth Galbraith
>> :
>> :
>>
>>
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Maybe when you grow up and get a job, you will be able to
afford a reef tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



J R-S wrote on 3/14/2006 8:13 PM:
> Why are you so temperamental about what I said?
> Have you just realized that you are acting as a fool spending big money on a
> system that enslaves you?
> poor thing!
>
> jrs
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "I am just a marine biologist "
>>
>> That is the funniest thing I have every heard. And I'm the CEO of
>> Microsoft and before
>> that I was president of the US
>>
>> --
>> Boomer
>>
>> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>>
>> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
>> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>>
>> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
>> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>>
>> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
>> http://www.coralrealm.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> : Thank you for the compliment buy I am no expert..
>> : I am just a marine biologist who thinks that the average aquarist spends
>> too
>> : much money in systems.
>> : 7 out of ten SW aquariums I've checked have and over budget of more than
>> : 50%.
>> : In other words, you are spending in too many things you don't need or
>> that
>> : you can get in a different way.
>> :
>> : If you fill good with wasting your money, go right ahead, your life is
>> not
>> : going to change...
>> :
>> : jrs
>> : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> : ...
>> : > And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef tank in his
>> : > entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an expert.
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Wayne Sallee
>> : > Wayne's Pets
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
>> : >> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
>> : >>
>> : >>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly
>> buying
>> : >> all
>> : >> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and get
>> no
>> : >> benefit
>> : >> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to
>> spend
>> : >> so much
>> : >> money on something that is useless.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent
>> debate
>> : >>>to see if we all learn.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
>> : >>
>> : >> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get from
>> : >> this,
>> : >> other than that you are just a quack?
>> : >>
>> : >> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora) in
>> my
>> : >> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the
>> corals
>> : >> grow
>> : >> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights
>> off,
>> : >> and
>> : >> the same corals wither and die.
>> : >>
>> : >> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the
>> corals
>> : >> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just
>> trying
>> : >> to
>> : >> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright
>> lights.
>> : >>
>> : >> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics
>> (despite
>> : >> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights in
>> : >> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
>> : >> constructive
>> : >> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't
>> yet
>> : >> seen
>> : >> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals grow.
>> If
>> : >> I
>> : >> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I
>> do,
>> : >> at this
>> : >> point in time?
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but
>> untill
>> : >>>ALL my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
>> : >> foolish
>> : >> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of some
>> : >> alternative setup.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my
>> system, I
>> : >>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
>> : >>>information flourishes for the benefit of all.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only make
>> fun
>> : >> of
>> : >> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to
>> provide
>> : >> any
>> : >> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore
>> the
>> : >> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed under
>> : >> bright
>> : >> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology,
>> but
>> : >> you
>> : >> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing stony
>> : >> corals
>> : >> when using bright lights.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the thread,
>> all
>> : >>>you have to do is to ignore my messages.
>> : >>
>> : >>
>> : >> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some
>> poor
>> : >> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're
>> stating
>> : >> consensus opinion.
>> : >>
>> : >> -- Don
>> : >>
>> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>> : >> Don Geddis
>> : >> http://reef.geddis.org/
>> : >> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
>> : >> opposite.
>> : >> -- John Kenneth Galbraith
>> :
>> :
>>
>>
>
>

[J R-S]

Drool over which pictures?
Listen kid, I've seen real coral reef in all its splendor.
I know how they are supposed to look like...
There is nothing like snorkling over the Porites spp mat to find yourself in
the Millepora zone, being brushed by it (ouch), looking down and seeing a
nice Gorgonia patch with white and camouflage sea urchins grazing around in
a patch of Thallassia..
Then, at a distance, you see something huge moving, wao, is a hammerhead
going after a young Chelonia, you just freeze, have nothing else to do but
stay still against the beril, that giant moves like a butterfly as the
turtle circles its body trying to confuse it, then the reptile takes a
chance and flies to the deep, the shark follows it...
You are just gasping for air out of your tank, once in the boat, you throw
yourself in it and just feel happy that came out of the water with only a
few Millepora burns...
Son, I've been there, in the Caribbean, NOT IN A BAD REPLICA IN YOUR LIVING
ROOM...

jrs
"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Just because you can't afford to spend the needed money on a properly
> setup tank does not mean that people are foolish to enjoy theirs.
>
> But you can always go to our web sites, and drool over the pictures :-)
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> J R-S wrote on 3/14/2006 8:13 PM:
>> Why are you so temperamental about what I said?
>> Have you just realized that you are acting as a fool spending big money
>> on a system that enslaves you?
>> poor thing!
>>
>> jrs
>> "Boomer" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "I am just a marine biologist "
>>>
>>> That is the funniest thing I have every heard. And I'm the CEO of
>>> Microsoft and before
>>> that I was president of the US
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boomer
>>>
>>> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>>>
>>> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
>>> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>>>
>>> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
>>> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>>>
>>> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
>>> http://www.coralrealm.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> : Thank you for the compliment buy I am no expert..
>>> : I am just a marine biologist who thinks that the average aquarist
>>> spends too
>>> : much money in systems.
>>> : 7 out of ten SW aquariums I've checked have and over budget of more
>>> than
>>> : 50%.
>>> : In other words, you are spending in too many things you don't need or
>>> that
>>> : you can get in a different way.
>>> :
>>> : If you fill good with wasting your money, go right ahead, your life is
>>> not
>>> : going to change...
>>> :
>>> : jrs
>>> : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>>> : ...
>>> : > And not only that, but Jaime has never, ever kept a reef tank in his
>>> : > entire life, and yet he thinks that he is an expert.
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > Wayne Sallee
>>> : > Wayne's Pets
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > Don Geddis wrote on 3/1/2006 12:00 PM:
>>> : >> "Jaime R-S" > wrote on Tue, 28 Feb 2006:
>>> : >>
>>> : >>>OK, you say that I complaint yet you are the one argueing.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >> You're the one who started, by saying that we're all being silly
>>> buying
>>> : >> all
>>> : >> these expensive lights, that corals don't need light at all, and
>>> get no
>>> : >> benefit
>>> : >> from them. With lots of "LOL" comments about how silly we are to
>>> spend
>>> : >> so much
>>> : >> money on something that is useless.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >>>This is a newsgroup, we put ideas here and hope for an intelligent
>>> debate
>>> : >>>to see if we all learn.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >> I'm here. I'm ready to learn from you. Teach me.
>>> : >>
>>> : >> Yet you don't share any information. What am I supposed to get
>>> from
>>> : >> this,
>>> : >> other than that you are just a quack?
>>> : >>
>>> : >> OK, I'll try one more time: I've got stony corals (e.g. acropora)
>>> in my
>>> : >> aquarium. I have bright MH lights during the day time, and the
>>> corals
>>> : >> grow
>>> : >> much bigger, and in pretty colors. In contrast, I turn the lights
>>> off,
>>> : >> and
>>> : >> the same corals wither and die.
>>> : >>
>>> : >> I'm not going to argue with you about the biology, and whether the
>>> corals
>>> : >> receive any nutrients from their symbiotic algae or not. I'm just
>>> trying
>>> : >> to
>>> : >> grow the things, and they seem to grow when placed under bright
>>> lights.
>>> : >>
>>> : >> You claim the lights don't matter, and are only for aesthetics
>>> (despite
>>> : >> empirical evidence that they don't grow without the bright lights
>>> in
>>> : >> captivity). OK, I'm here to learn from you. Do you have ANYTHING
>>> : >> constructive
>>> : >> to say? All I see is you making fun of bright lighting. I haven't
>>> yet
>>> : >> seen
>>> : >> you offer ANY alternative. If I keep my lights on, the corals
>>> grow. If
>>> : >> I
>>> : >> turn them off, the corals die. What do you actually suggest that I
>>> do,
>>> : >> at this
>>> : >> point in time?
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >>>I guess I was hoping for too much. I do have an alternative but
>>> untill
>>> : >>>ALL my experiments conclude, I can't say it here.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >> If you're going to bother making extreme claims about how we're all
>>> : >> foolish
>>> : >> to use bright lights, you at least owe a hint of the details of
>>> some
>>> : >> alternative setup.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >>>Meanwhile, if I see someone mentioning something related to my
>>> system, I
>>> : >>>will try to debate or to be the devil's advocate to see if some
>>> : >>>information flourishes for the benefit of all.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >> Except that you're providing no positive information. You only
>>> make fun
>>> : >> of
>>> : >> the standard practice of using bright lights. Yet you refuse to
>>> provide
>>> : >> any
>>> : >> information of any other way to grow stony corals. And you ignore
>>> the
>>> : >> widespread evidence that they do grow successfully when placed
>>> under
>>> : >> bright
>>> : >> lights. Your only responses are theoretical debates about biology,
>>> but
>>> : >> you
>>> : >> have no explanation for why aquarists are successful at growing
>>> stony
>>> : >> corals
>>> : >> when using bright lights.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >>>If you are not willing to debate, please, stay away from the
>>> thread, all
>>> : >>>you have to do is to ignore my messages.
>>> : >>
>>> : >>
>>> : >> I don't want to leave your outlandish claims unchallenged, as some
>>> poor
>>> : >> lurker might read your posts and erroneously believe that you're
>>> stating
>>> : >> consensus opinion.
>>> : >>
>>> : >> -- Don
>>> : >>
>>> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>>> : >> Don Geddis
>>> : >> http://reef.geddis.org/
>>> : >> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the
>>> : >> opposite.
>>> : >> -- John Kenneth Galbraith
>>> :
>>> :
>>>
>>>
>>

[Boomer]

Christ your stupid or just a stupid troll. Want to debate this issue on coral biology with
me Jamie. How come you refuse to answer my post when I disagree with you but you argue
your views with others. Jamie you are nothing more than a snot-noised kid trying to
impress people.


"Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not obligatory"

WRONG in regards to many, many corals but not all of them. It is 100 % obligatory in may,
many corals

"The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible debris
and plankton from the water"

WRONG poly feeding is only a supplemental in many corals, such as Acropora palmata,
Porites porites Some corals receive up to 98 % of their daily uptake from by-products of
symbiotic algae (Symbiodinium sp ) where much of that is in the form of glucose and amino
acids

Ever hear of the word Hermatypic and Ahermatypic Jamie
http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/04benthon/crani.htm

http://www.oceansatlas.com/servlet/CDSServlet?status=ND0zMTg1NCZjdG5faW5mb192aWV3X3Np emU9Y3RuX2luZm9fdmlld19mdWxsJjY9ZW4mMzM9KiYzNz1rb3 M~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reefs

http://biological-diversity.info/corals.htm

You mean Jamie that all of these people are WRONG. You mean people like Jen Veron, Daphne
Dunn Fautin , Dubanski, Sorokin
and on and on and on do not know what they are taking about ?


--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
. ..
: Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with me.
: It has been proven beyond any imaginable doubt that you are not the most
: knowledgeable participant of this forum and you should stick to what you
: know, if anything!
: Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not obligatory.
: The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible debris
: and plankton from the water. The algae uses the light to produce food FOR
: ITSELF DUMMY, some of the leftovers of the coral are used as nutrients by
: the algae which in return makes calcium and other macronutrients available
: to the coral. I don't know how will you understand that corals are
: CARNIVOROUS and don't eat the algae. Yes, the algae's, and any plant for
: that matters, production is fixed on its leaves. That is the reason why the
: coral CAN'T benefit from the algae's production.
: Of course, you benefit from your client's buying those expensive fixtures
: making you a parasite. I wonder if your clients know that you make them buy
: expensive equipments that serve no purpose.
: Well, as far as coral reefs in the Caribbean I just don't think that
: Acropora palmata, Porites porites, Porites astreoides, Millepora spp,
: Agaricia agaricites and many, many other coastal corals are not light
: dependent. I saw the most beautiful Millepora spp and Porites spp
: association scuba diving between Puerto Rico and Vieques at 50' about two
: miles west of Vieques. The Vieques channel is so strong that the sediments
: are waterborne most of the year in that region making visibility less than
: 50 meters the majority of the time. You should have seen the abundance of
: white, camouflage and black sea urchins and even some sea grass beds all
: over, together with the coral, some Thallassia was blooming at the time.
: Light down there uses no BALLAST OR EXPENSIVE FIXTURES. It is just natural
: sunlight, the same one that can be reproduce in your living room with
: inexpensive lights. Of course, if you want it to look pretty, the $500
: investment is worst it. But please, don't tell anyone that those lights are
: needed other than for aesthetic purposes'.
: Now, go and sin no more!
:
: jrs
:
: "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
: ...
: > Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
: >
: > When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss of
: > food that this algae was providing them.
: >
: > The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals, not
: > the type of coras that we keep.
: >
: > Wayne Sallee
: > Wayne's Pets
: >
: >
: >
: > Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
: >> Hi;
: >> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
: >> where light is dim.
: >> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
: >> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
: >> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the rock
: >> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
: >> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an algae
: >> incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its part of
: >> the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the zooxanthella and
: >> will be able to live without it for periods of time. The drawback about
: >> not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the main
: >> reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
: >> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
: >> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
: >> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
: >> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little and
: >> poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
: >>
: >> jrs
: >> "TheRock" > wrote in message
: >> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
: >>
: >>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
: >>>Is live rock really live ?
: >>>
: >>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods, misc
: >>>micro fauna and algae.
: >>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to the
: >>>light. 10,000K
: >>>
: >>>right ?
: >>>
: >>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
: . ..
: >>>
: >>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
: >>>>
: >>>
: >>>
: >>
:

[J R-S]

Maybe, just maybe you are not worst the effort!
Cool down kid, I have no time for you.

jrs
"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> Christ your stupid or just a stupid troll. Want to debate this issue on
> coral biology with
> me Jamie. How come you refuse to answer my post when I disagree with you
> but you argue
> your views with others. Jamie you are nothing more than a snot-noised kid
> trying to
> impress people.
>
>
> "Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not
> obligatory"
>
> WRONG in regards to many, many corals but not all of them. It is 100 %
> obligatory in may,
> many corals
>
> "The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible
> debris
> and plankton from the water"
>
> WRONG poly feeding is only a supplemental in many corals, such as Acropora
> palmata,
> Porites porites Some corals receive up to 98 % of their daily uptake from
> by-products of
> symbiotic algae (Symbiodinium sp ) where much of that is in the form of
> glucose and amino
> acids
>
> Ever hear of the word Hermatypic and Ahermatypic Jamie
> http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/04benthon/crani.htm
>
> http://www.oceansatlas.com/servlet/CDSServlet?status=ND0zMTg1NCZjdG5faW5mb192aWV3X3Np emU9Y3RuX2luZm9fdmlld19mdWxsJjY9ZW4mMzM9KiYzNz1rb3 M~
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reefs
>
> http://biological-diversity.info/corals.htm
>
> You mean Jamie that all of these people are WRONG. You mean people like
> Jen Veron, Daphne
> Dunn Fautin , Dubanski, Sorokin
> and on and on and on do not know what they are taking about ?
>
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>
> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
> http://www.coralrealm.com
>
>
>
> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
> . ..
> : Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with me.
> : It has been proven beyond any imaginable doubt that you are not the most
> : knowledgeable participant of this forum and you should stick to what you
> : know, if anything!
> : Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not
> obligatory.
> : The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible
> debris
> : and plankton from the water. The algae uses the light to produce food
> FOR
> : ITSELF DUMMY, some of the leftovers of the coral are used as nutrients
> by
> : the algae which in return makes calcium and other macronutrients
> available
> : to the coral. I don't know how will you understand that corals are
> : CARNIVOROUS and don't eat the algae. Yes, the algae's, and any plant
> for
> : that matters, production is fixed on its leaves. That is the reason why
> the
> : coral CAN'T benefit from the algae's production.
> : Of course, you benefit from your client's buying those expensive
> fixtures
> : making you a parasite. I wonder if your clients know that you make them
> buy
> : expensive equipments that serve no purpose.
> : Well, as far as coral reefs in the Caribbean I just don't think that
> : Acropora palmata, Porites porites, Porites astreoides, Millepora spp,
> : Agaricia agaricites and many, many other coastal corals are not light
> : dependent. I saw the most beautiful Millepora spp and Porites spp
> : association scuba diving between Puerto Rico and Vieques at 50' about
> two
> : miles west of Vieques. The Vieques channel is so strong that the
> sediments
> : are waterborne most of the year in that region making visibility less
> than
> : 50 meters the majority of the time. You should have seen the abundance
> of
> : white, camouflage and black sea urchins and even some sea grass beds all
> : over, together with the coral, some Thallassia was blooming at the time.
> : Light down there uses no BALLAST OR EXPENSIVE FIXTURES. It is just
> natural
> : sunlight, the same one that can be reproduce in your living room with
> : inexpensive lights. Of course, if you want it to look pretty, the $500
> : investment is worst it. But please, don't tell anyone that those lights
> are
> : needed other than for aesthetic purposes'.
> : Now, go and sin no more!
> :
> : jrs
> :
> : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
> : >
> : > When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
> of
> : > food that this algae was providing them.
> : >
> : > The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
> not
> : > the type of coras that we keep.
> : >
> : > Wayne Sallee
> : > Wayne's Pets
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
> : >> Hi;
> : >> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
> : >> where light is dim.
> : >> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
> : >> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
> : >> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the
> rock
> : >> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
> : >> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
> algae
> : >> incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
> part of
> : >> the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the zooxanthella
> and
> : >> will be able to live without it for periods of time. The drawback
> about
> : >> not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the
> main
> : >> reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
> : >> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
> : >> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
> : >> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
> : >> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
> and
> : >> poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
> : >>
> : >> jrs
> : >> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> : >> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
> : >>
> : >>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
> : >>>Is live rock really live ?
> : >>>
> : >>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
> misc
> : >>>micro fauna and algae.
> : >>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
> the
> : >>>light. 10,000K
> : >>>
> : >>>right ?
> : >>>
> : >>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
> : . ..
> : >>>
> : >>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
> : >>>>
> : >>>
> : >>>
> : >>
> :
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

That's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



J R-S wrote on 3/16/2006 6:57 PM:
> Maybe, just maybe you are not worst the effort!
> Cool down kid, I have no time for you.
>
> jrs
> "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Christ your stupid or just a stupid troll. Want to debate this issue on
>> coral biology with
>> me Jamie. How come you refuse to answer my post when I disagree with you
>> but you argue
>> your views with others. Jamie you are nothing more than a snot-noised kid
>> trying to
>> impress people.
>>
>>
>> "Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not
>> obligatory"
>>
>> WRONG in regards to many, many corals but not all of them. It is 100 %
>> obligatory in may,
>> many corals
>>
>> "The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible
>> debris
>> and plankton from the water"
>>
>> WRONG poly feeding is only a supplemental in many corals, such as Acropora
>> palmata,
>> Porites porites Some corals receive up to 98 % of their daily uptake from
>> by-products of
>> symbiotic algae (Symbiodinium sp ) where much of that is in the form of
>> glucose and amino
>> acids
>>
>> Ever hear of the word Hermatypic and Ahermatypic Jamie
>> http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/04benthon/crani.htm
>>
>> http://www.oceansatlas.com/servlet/CDSServlet?status=ND0zMTg1NCZjdG5faW5mb192aWV3X3Np emU9Y3RuX2luZm9fdmlld19mdWxsJjY9ZW4mMzM9KiYzNz1rb3 M~
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reefs
>>
>> http://biological-diversity.info/corals.htm
>>
>> You mean Jamie that all of these people are WRONG. You mean people like
>> Jen Veron, Daphne
>> Dunn Fautin , Dubanski, Sorokin
>> and on and on and on do not know what they are taking about ?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Boomer
>>
>> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>>
>> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
>> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>>
>> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
>> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>>
>> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
>> http://www.coralrealm.com
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> : Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with me.
>> : It has been proven beyond any imaginable doubt that you are not the most
>> : knowledgeable participant of this forum and you should stick to what you
>> : know, if anything!
>> : Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not
>> obligatory.
>> : The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible
>> debris
>> : and plankton from the water. The algae uses the light to produce food
>> FOR
>> : ITSELF DUMMY, some of the leftovers of the coral are used as nutrients
>> by
>> : the algae which in return makes calcium and other macronutrients
>> available
>> : to the coral. I don't know how will you understand that corals are
>> : CARNIVOROUS and don't eat the algae. Yes, the algae's, and any plant
>> for
>> : that matters, production is fixed on its leaves. That is the reason why
>> the
>> : coral CAN'T benefit from the algae's production.
>> : Of course, you benefit from your client's buying those expensive
>> fixtures
>> : making you a parasite. I wonder if your clients know that you make them
>> buy
>> : expensive equipments that serve no purpose.
>> : Well, as far as coral reefs in the Caribbean I just don't think that
>> : Acropora palmata, Porites porites, Porites astreoides, Millepora spp,
>> : Agaricia agaricites and many, many other coastal corals are not light
>> : dependent. I saw the most beautiful Millepora spp and Porites spp
>> : association scuba diving between Puerto Rico and Vieques at 50' about
>> two
>> : miles west of Vieques. The Vieques channel is so strong that the
>> sediments
>> : are waterborne most of the year in that region making visibility less
>> than
>> : 50 meters the majority of the time. You should have seen the abundance
>> of
>> : white, camouflage and black sea urchins and even some sea grass beds all
>> : over, together with the coral, some Thallassia was blooming at the time.
>> : Light down there uses no BALLAST OR EXPENSIVE FIXTURES. It is just
>> natural
>> : sunlight, the same one that can be reproduce in your living room with
>> : inexpensive lights. Of course, if you want it to look pretty, the $500
>> : investment is worst it. But please, don't tell anyone that those lights
>> are
>> : needed other than for aesthetic purposes'.
>> : Now, go and sin no more!
>> :
>> : jrs
>> :
>> : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> : ...
>> : > Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
>> : >
>> : > When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the loss
>> of
>> : > food that this algae was providing them.
>> : >
>> : > The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light corals,
>> not
>> : > the type of coras that we keep.
>> : >
>> : > Wayne Sallee
>> : > Wayne's Pets
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
>> : >> Hi;
>> : >> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot depths
>> : >> where light is dim.
>> : >> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a sal****er
>> : >> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
>> : >> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the
>> rock
>> : >> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
>> : >> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have an
>> algae
>> : >> incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
>> part of
>> : >> the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the zooxanthella
>> and
>> : >> will be able to live without it for periods of time. The drawback
>> about
>> : >> not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the
>> main
>> : >> reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
>> : >> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
>> : >> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the probable
>> : >> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
>> : >> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with little
>> and
>> : >> poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
>> : >>
>> : >> jrs
>> : >> "TheRock" > wrote in message
>> : >> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
>> : >>
>> : >>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
>> : >>>Is live rock really live ?
>> : >>>
>> : >>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
>> misc
>> : >>>micro fauna and algae.
>> : >>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes to
>> the
>> : >>>light. 10,000K
>> : >>>
>> : >>>right ?
>> : >>>
>> : >>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
>> : . ..
>> : >>>
>> : >>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay alive?
>> : >>>>
>> : >>>
>> : >>>
>> : >>
>> :
>>
>>
>
>

[J R-S]

If you have 40 years in the hobby, then you have what you deserve, too bad
you will not learn better options, too late for you, say hi to St. Peter...

jrs
"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> Right kid :lol:, been in the hobby for almost 40 years. I'm almost 60.
>
> You have no time for facts is the issue
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>
> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
> http://www.coralrealm.com
>
>
>
> "J R-S" > wrote in message
> ...
> : Maybe, just maybe you are not worst the effort!
> : Cool down kid, I have no time for you.
> :
> : jrs
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > Christ your stupid or just a stupid troll. Want to debate this issue
> on
> : > coral biology with
> : > me Jamie. How come you refuse to answer my post when I disagree with
> you
> : > but you argue
> : > your views with others. Jamie you are nothing more than a snot-noised
> kid
> : > trying to
> : > impress people.
> : >
> : >
> : > "Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not
> : > obligatory"
> : >
> : > WRONG in regards to many, many corals but not all of them. It is 100 %
> : > obligatory in may,
> : > many corals
> : >
> : > "The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible
> : > debris
> : > and plankton from the water"
> : >
> : > WRONG poly feeding is only a supplemental in many corals, such as
> Acropora
> : > palmata,
> : > Porites porites Some corals receive up to 98 % of their daily uptake
> from
> : > by-products of
> : > symbiotic algae (Symbiodinium sp ) where much of that is in the form
> of
> : > glucose and amino
> : > acids
> : >
> : > Ever hear of the word Hermatypic and Ahermatypic Jamie
> : > http://www.biosbcc.net/ocean/marinesci/04benthon/crani.htm
> : >
> : >
> http://www.oceansatlas.com/servlet/CDSServlet?status=ND0zMTg1NCZjdG5faW5mb192aWV3X3Np emU9Y3RuX2luZm9fdmlld19mdWxsJjY9ZW4mMzM9KiYzNz1rb3 M~
> : >
> : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reefs
> : >
> : > http://biological-diversity.info/corals.htm
> : >
> : > You mean Jamie that all of these people are WRONG. You mean people
> like
> : > Jen Veron, Daphne
> : > Dunn Fautin , Dubanski, Sorokin
> : > and on and on and on do not know what they are taking about ?
> : >
> : >
> : > --
> : > Boomer
> : >
> : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : >
> : > Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
> : > Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
> : >
> : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : >
> : > Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
> : > http://www.coralrealm.com
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > "Jaime R-S" > wrote in message
> : > . ..
> : > : Hey dude, by this time you should've known better than to argue with
> me.
> : > : It has been proven beyond any imaginable doubt that you are not the
> most
> : > : knowledgeable participant of this forum and you should stick to what
> you
> : > : know, if anything!
> : > : Corals have a mutualism with the algae, meaning that it is not
> : > obligatory.
> : > : The polyps feeds by itself using its tentacles to catch loose edible
> : > debris
> : > : and plankton from the water. The algae uses the light to produce
> food
> : > FOR
> : > : ITSELF DUMMY, some of the leftovers of the coral are used as
> nutrients
> : > by
> : > : the algae which in return makes calcium and other macronutrients
> : > available
> : > : to the coral. I don't know how will you understand that corals are
> : > : CARNIVOROUS and don't eat the algae. Yes, the algae's, and any
> plant
> : > for
> : > : that matters, production is fixed on its leaves. That is the reason
> why
> : > the
> : > : coral CAN'T benefit from the algae's production.
> : > : Of course, you benefit from your client's buying those expensive
> : > fixtures
> : > : making you a parasite. I wonder if your clients know that you make
> them
> : > buy
> : > : expensive equipments that serve no purpose.
> : > : Well, as far as coral reefs in the Caribbean I just don't think that
> : > : Acropora palmata, Porites porites, Porites astreoides, Millepora
> spp,
> : > : Agaricia agaricites and many, many other coastal corals are not
> light
> : > : dependent. I saw the most beautiful Millepora spp and Porites spp
> : > : association scuba diving between Puerto Rico and Vieques at 50'
> about
> : > two
> : > : miles west of Vieques. The Vieques channel is so strong that the
> : > sediments
> : > : are waterborne most of the year in that region making visibility
> less
> : > than
> : > : 50 meters the majority of the time. You should have seen the
> abundance
> : > of
> : > : white, camouflage and black sea urchins and even some sea grass beds
> all
> : > : over, together with the coral, some Thallassia was blooming at the
> time.
> : > : Light down there uses no BALLAST OR EXPENSIVE FIXTURES. It is just
> : > natural
> : > : sunlight, the same one that can be reproduce in your living room
> with
> : > : inexpensive lights. Of course, if you want it to look pretty, the
> $500
> : > : investment is worst it. But please, don't tell anyone that those
> lights
> : > are
> : > : needed other than for aesthetic purposes'.
> : > : Now, go and sin no more!
> : > :
> : > : jrs
> : > :
> : > : "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> : > : ...
> : > : > Lighting is not over rated for reef tanks.
> : > : >
> : > : > When corals loose theier symbiotic algae, they are weekend by the
> loss
> : > of
> : > : > food that this algae was providing them.
> : > : >
> : > : > The corals you saw living in low light were probably low light
> corals,
> : > not
> : > : > the type of coras that we keep.
> : > : >
> : > : > Wayne Sallee
> : > : > Wayne's Pets
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > Jaime R-S wrote on 2/25/2006 11:05 AM:
> : > : >> Hi;
> : > : >> You did hit the point. Live rock exists even at 200 foot
> depths
> : > : >> where light is dim.
> : > : >> Ilumination is one of the most over-rated fixtures of a
> sal****er
> : > : >> aquarium. A very expensive over-rated fixture.
> : > : >> Live rock doesn't need much light, even if the algae dies the
> : > rock
> : > : >> stays alive as long as the animals within are being fed.
> : > : >> Hard coral is another story. These types of anthozoans have
> an
> : > algae
> : > : >> incorporated within as a simbiont. If the algae is not doing its
> : > part of
> : > : >> the conditions get unbearable, the polyp will expell the
> zooxanthella
> : > and
> : > : >> will be able to live without it for periods of time. The
> drawback
> : > about
> : > : >> not having the algae in the symbiosis is the loss of colours, the
> : > main
> : > : >> reason for having corals in a reef aquarium.
> : > : >> I grew up in the Caribbean, I haven't seen coral reefs like those
> : > : >> anywhere else other than Australia and the IndoPacific, the
> probable
> : > : >> birth place of coral reefs. The majority of the time the water
> : > : >> visibility is not great and coral reefs manage to survive with
> little
> : > and
> : > : >> poor light at depths of up to 100 feet.
> : > : >>
> : > : >> jrs
> : > : >> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> : > : >> news:kGZLf.2274$UN1.1116@trndny08...
> : > : >>
> : > : >>>Rock doesn't need light...algae does.
> : > : >>>Is live rock really live ?
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>I believe it just accommodates, beneficial bacteria, worms, pods,
> : > misc
> : > : >>>micro fauna and algae.
> : > : >>>So I guess if your make your sump a refugium style sump then yes
> to
> : > the
> : > : >>>light. 10,000K
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>right ?
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>"Harry Ohanian" > wrote in message
> : > : . ..
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>>If I put L.R. in my sump do I need lighting for it to stay
> alive?
> : > : >>>>
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>>
> : > : >>
> : > :
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

[Cindy]

Boomer typed:
> "I am just a marine biologist "
>
> That is the funniest thing I have every heard. And I'm the CEO of
> Microsoft and before that I was president of the US

LOL
I guess that must make ME Martha Stewart. <snicker, choke>

[AverageSchmuck]

PLONK!

Not even worth the keystrokes I took to type this