Very poorly looking tropical parrot fish , advice please.

[Just Wondering]

Hi , i do hope somebody can help , one of my parrot fish is looking
incredibley short of breath , he kept heading for the top of the tank to
talk a gulp of air , both my air pumps are working fine , but he seems to of
lost all his energy and is now struggling and is just sat near the bottom of
the tank , he seemed perfectly fine earlier in the day , one of my other
parrot fish was doing the same but seems to of calmed down and appears to be
acting much more normally.

My tank is a rio 240 and the fish are tropical.

But one thing i have done to my tank set up in the past few days , is to
take out all the plants , they seem to be doing little more than making the
place messy with dead bits of plant floating around etc and the plants just
seemed to float around at the top all of the time , still living etc with
but not at the bottom in the gravel.

Have i done the wrong thing and should i introduce more plants fairly
quickly ?

I've check the ph and aminona levels and all seem fine ?!?!!?!? my temperate
of the tank is around 76

I'm stuck and the plants seem to be the only major change i have made to my
tank set up in the past 5 days ?!?!?

By the signs of things i'd say my parrot fish won't make it through to the
morning ....... any advice ?!?!?!?!

[Richard Sexton]

>By the signs of things i'd say my parrot fish won't make it through to the
>morning ....... any advice ?!?!?!?!


Get it out of there then. Put it in a bucket of tapwater that you've added
1 Teaspoon per gallon of salt too for now.

A fishes gills are how it breathes but also how it excretes ammonia. The
test kit may be lying (happens) or there could be an low oxygen high co2
condition or it oculd be a pathogen afecting the gills.

Any other fish in the tank?

The dead plants say "ammonia" to me. The onl time I killed shrimp was
when I put some new plants in, and after a while, lil dead shrimp everywhere.

Yeah ok there wee a few dead leaves around but geez...



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[Altum]

Just Wondering wrote:
> Hi , i do hope somebody can help , one of my parrot fish is looking
> incredibley short of breath , he kept heading for the top of the tank to
> talk a gulp of air , both my air pumps are working fine , but he seems to of
> lost all his energy and is now struggling and is just sat near the bottom of
> the tank , he seemed perfectly fine earlier in the day , one of my other
> parrot fish was doing the same but seems to of calmed down and appears to be
> acting much more normally.

Shortness or breath means that either there is not enough oxygen in the
water or the fishes gills are unable to absorb it.

> My tank is a rio 240 and the fish are tropical.

Should be enough water for two parrot fish.

> But one thing i have done to my tank set up in the past few days , is to
> take out all the plants , they seem to be doing little more than making the
> place messy with dead bits of plant floating around etc and the plants just
> seemed to float around at the top all of the time , still living etc with
> but not at the bottom in the gravel.
>
> Have i done the wrong thing and should i introduce more plants fairly
> quickly ?
>
> I've check the ph and aminona levels and all seem fine ?!?!!?!? my temperate
> of the tank is around 76

Test for nitrite immediately. Nitrite will cause exactly what you have
described because it makes fish unable to absorb oxygen. The plants
may have been contributing more to biofiltration than you realized.
Adding them back may not do much right away and they won't do any
better without adequate light.

If you have nitrite in the water, change some water. Add some bacteria
by moving filter media from another tank if you have one. You can also
add 1 gram/litre salt (drop it to 1 gram/3 litres if you have catfish
or loaches) to help reverse the toxicity. 1 gram/litre is 1 tsp/gallon
US.

[dc]

"Just Wondering" > wrote in
:

> Hi , i do hope somebody can help , one of my parrot fish is looking
> incredibley short of breath , he kept heading for the top of the tank
> to talk a gulp of air , both my air pumps are working fine , but he
> seems to of lost all his energy and is now struggling and is just sat
> near the bottom of the tank , he seemed perfectly fine earlier in the
> day , one of my other parrot fish was doing the same but seems to of
> calmed down and appears to be acting much more normally.
....
> I'm stuck and the plants seem to be the only major change i have made
> to my tank set up in the past 5 days ?!?!?

This sounds like nitrite poisoning. Nitrite bonds to hemoglobin and
diminishes its ability to transport oxygen in the blood. Your fish are
basically suffocating.

If you have a nitrite test kit, I suggest you test for the pollutant to
confirm my suspicions.

Either way I recommend you perform a 50% water change while vacuuming as
much detritus out of the gravel in order to dilute the toxin.

You can also use Prime by Seachem (a tap water conditioner) at as much as
x5 strength to help detoxify the lingering nitrite.

Turn your filtration and your aeration up to full in order disolve as much
O2 as possible to help your fish breathe and your nitrobacter process the
remaining nitrite.

Nitrite spikes can happen for a number of reasons, but it usually comes
down to too much waste in the water column or a shocked/damaged bacteria
culture. Your plants may have been processing the majority of the ammonia
out of the water before bacteria had a chance to break it down, so your
tank never established enough nitrobacter to process the amount of nitrite
now present in your tank... or by uprooting your plants you may have
disturbed a large amount of unprocessed waste that is now breaking down in
the water column... or the amount of dead roots left in the substrate may
be to blame. It is hard to pinpoint the exact cause of a nitrite spike
without being there.

Water changing, aeration, close observation, and chemical treatment will
help save your fish.

I wouldn't rely too heavily on aquarium salt to solve your problem as other
people have suggested, in my experience it is not nearly as effective as
most people take it to be. It may marginally help your fish obtain more
O2, but dealing with the nitrite and what caused the nitrite spike is the
real solution.

[dc]

dc > wrote in
:

> Water changing, aeration, close observation, and chemical treatment
> will help save your fish.

Oh yes... and if you can obtain some filter media from an already well
cycled tank and add it to your own, it should help out a lot too.

[Just Wondering]

"dc" > wrote in message
...
> dc > wrote in
> :
>
>> Water changing, aeration, close observation, and chemical treatment
>> will help save your fish.
>
> Oh yes... and if you can obtain some filter media from an already well
> cycled tank and add it to your own, it should help out a lot too.


Thank you all for your replys , i did do a partial water change last night ,
he was almost laying on his side and looking very short of breath , it was
very sad to watch , so i pretty much had wrote him off as a goner and had
gone in this morning to pretty much scoop him out and flush him away :(
but he seems much better this morning , about 60% of his normal self.

I don't have any other tanks to tank a filter from , but the tank has been
set up for around 4 years .

I have done a test on the water this morning using dry tab kit , all the
tests seem fine except the Nitrate no3 test this shows 140ppm which is well
over the reccomend 40ppm and it does mention to reduce nitrate levels to use
plants , a partial water change and a chemical called Nitra Zorb , which i
will be buying this morning from the pet shop......

But i do have some hope as he does look a lot better this morning , Fingers
crossed i can sort this out.

Thank you for your replys.

[dc]

"Just Wondering" > wrote in
:

> I have done a test on the water this morning using dry tab kit , all
> the tests seem fine except the Nitrate no3 test this shows 140ppm
> which is well over the reccomend 40ppm and it does mention to reduce
> nitrate levels to use plants , a partial water change and a chemical
> called Nitra Zorb , which i will be buying this morning from the pet
> shop......
>
> But i do have some hope as he does look a lot better this morning ,
> Fingers crossed i can sort this out.


High nitrate levels are not enough to cause the symptoms you described.
Nitrate is much less toxic than the organic ions it is derived from. High
nitrate levels are more likely to simply stress your fish, making them more
susceptible to disease and making any other condition they are going
through that much more stressful.

Chances are the nitrite that caused your problem has all been cycled out of
your system, with the aid of your water change. It shouldn't take very
long for a four year mature system to adapt to a nitrite spike. If all
other things accounted for, about 12 hours is the most it should take.

Plants do help process nitrate and ammonium out of your water, but unless
you have a thriving and VERY densely planted tank the effect shouldn't be
that noticeable. 140 ppm is pretty high; it is not possible that much
nitrate appeared overnight due to the absence of plants.

A healthy hardy fish can tolerate high nitrate levels for a long time
without too much trouble, but since your fish is already in bad shape I
would suggest you give your tank a few more 40-50% changes in the next
couple weeks to help him out. Try to match temperature, carbonate
hardness, and pH when swap in new water to avoid stressing your fish out
any further.

Good luck nursing your fish back to health.

[Just Wondering]

"dc" > wrote in message
...
> "Just Wondering" > wrote in
> :
>
>> I have done a test on the water this morning using dry tab kit , all
>> the tests seem fine except the Nitrate no3 test this shows 140ppm
>> which is well over the reccomend 40ppm and it does mention to reduce
>> nitrate levels to use plants , a partial water change and a chemical
>> called Nitra Zorb , which i will be buying this morning from the pet
>> shop......
>>
>> But i do have some hope as he does look a lot better this morning ,
>> Fingers crossed i can sort this out.
>
>
> High nitrate levels are not enough to cause the symptoms you described.
> Nitrate is much less toxic than the organic ions it is derived from. High
> nitrate levels are more likely to simply stress your fish, making them
> more
> susceptible to disease and making any other condition they are going
> through that much more stressful.
>
> Chances are the nitrite that caused your problem has all been cycled out
> of
> your system, with the aid of your water change. It shouldn't take very
> long for a four year mature system to adapt to a nitrite spike. If all
> other things accounted for, about 12 hours is the most it should take.
>
> Plants do help process nitrate and ammonium out of your water, but unless
> you have a thriving and VERY densely planted tank the effect shouldn't be
> that noticeable. 140 ppm is pretty high; it is not possible that much
> nitrate appeared overnight due to the absence of plants.
>
> A healthy hardy fish can tolerate high nitrate levels for a long time
> without too much trouble, but since your fish is already in bad shape I
> would suggest you give your tank a few more 40-50% changes in the next
> couple weeks to help him out. Try to match temperature, carbonate
> hardness, and pH when swap in new water to avoid stressing your fish out
> any further.
>
> Good luck nursing your fish back to health.

Thank you , would it be wise to do say a 10% water change once a day for the
next few days to help things along?

[Gill Passman]

Just Wondering wrote:
> "dc" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Just Wondering" > wrote in
:
>>
>>
>>>I have done a test on the water this morning using dry tab kit , all
>>>the tests seem fine except the Nitrate no3 test this shows 140ppm
>>>which is well over the reccomend 40ppm and it does mention to reduce
>>>nitrate levels to use plants , a partial water change and a chemical
>>>called Nitra Zorb , which i will be buying this morning from the pet
>>>shop......
>>>
>>>But i do have some hope as he does look a lot better this morning ,
>>>Fingers crossed i can sort this out.
>>
>>
>>High nitrate levels are not enough to cause the symptoms you described.
>>Nitrate is much less toxic than the organic ions it is derived from. High
>>nitrate levels are more likely to simply stress your fish, making them
>>more
>>susceptible to disease and making any other condition they are going
>>through that much more stressful.
>>
>>Chances are the nitrite that caused your problem has all been cycled out
>>of
>>your system, with the aid of your water change. It shouldn't take very
>>long for a four year mature system to adapt to a nitrite spike. If all
>>other things accounted for, about 12 hours is the most it should take.
>>
>>Plants do help process nitrate and ammonium out of your water, but unless
>>you have a thriving and VERY densely planted tank the effect shouldn't be
>>that noticeable. 140 ppm is pretty high; it is not possible that much
>>nitrate appeared overnight due to the absence of plants.
>>
>>A healthy hardy fish can tolerate high nitrate levels for a long time
>>without too much trouble, but since your fish is already in bad shape I
>>would suggest you give your tank a few more 40-50% changes in the next
>>couple weeks to help him out. Try to match temperature, carbonate
>>hardness, and pH when swap in new water to avoid stressing your fish out
>>any further.
>>
>>Good luck nursing your fish back to health.
>
>
> Thank you , would it be wise to do say a 10% water change once a day for the
> next few days to help things along?
>
>
>
I would...it will certainly dilute the nitrates (providing the nitrate
level in your tap water isn't high - have you tested it?). Of course,
the plants will help too

Gill
Gill

[Richard Sexton]

>Thank you , would it be wise to do say a 10% water change once a day for the
>next few days to help things along?


Nope - do the math. Try two 80% water changes over two days.



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[dc]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in
:

> Nope - do the math. Try two 80% water changes over two days.

That's a huge water change, and likely to further stress out an already
sick fish. I wouldn't recommend doing any more than 50%. If needed, 50%
daily for 3 days should get things under control.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
dc > wrote:
(Richard Sexton) wrote in
:
>
>> Nope - do the math. Try two 80% water changes over two days.
>
>That's a huge water change, and likely to further stress out an already
>sick fish.

That's not been my experience. Say you're in a fetid smokey room. Do you
want a 10% air change per day or a 100% air change?

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[dc]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in news:dto5nv$23p$2
@news.datemas.de:

>>> Nope - do the math. Try two 80% water changes over two days.
>>
>>That's a huge water change, and likely to further stress out an already
>>sick fish.
>
> That's not been my experience. Say you're in a fetid smokey room. Do you
> want a 10% air change per day or a 100% air change?

That is incomplete logic.

There is a good reason why small frequent water changes can be a lot better
than large infrequent water changes.

When you replace that much water in an aquarium it can be a shocking change
for the fish in the aquarium. The pH is likely to fluctuate dramatically
(as water out of the tap often has a radically different pH than it will
after it stands for a time), the hardness will be different if you've been
using any sort of buffers, the temperature is likely to be off, and most
importantly the dissolved gasses may not be ideal for aerobic sustaining
life. Depending on the condition of the tank, you also risk removing a
large portion of your nitrifying bacteria.

Depending on the sensitivity of the fish and the condition of the water
straight out of the tap, that large of a water change can cause sudden
death of a whole tank.

[Richard Sexton]

>> That's not been my experience. Say you're in a fetid smokey room. Do you
>> want a 10% air change per day or a 100% air change?
>
>That is incomplete logic.
>
>There is a good reason why small frequent water changes can be a lot better
>than large infrequent water changes.
>
>When you replace that much water in an aquarium it can be a shocking change
>for the fish in the aquarium. The pH is likely to fluctuate dramatically

So? Fish don't care about pH, they cate about osmotic pressure. The only
thing they cannot tolerate is going to water half as soft as what they're
in. Other than that (and assuming it's the same temperature!) no harm
no foul.

This was first brough up by Col. J.J. Scheel in his 1968 definitive work
"Rivulins of the Old World". And you know what? He's dead on right. I do
it all the time.

>life. Depending on the condition of the tank, you also risk removing a
>large portion of your nitrifying bacteria.

Nope, theres enough on the walls of the tank and the gravel to keep it going.

>Depending on the sensitivity of the fish and the condition of the water
>straight out of the tap, that large of a water change can cause sudden
>death of a whole tank.

Guys that breed discus and altums do this all the time and you couldn't
find more sensitive fish.

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[dc]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in
:

> So? Fish don't care about pH, they cate about osmotic pressure. The
> only thing they cannot tolerate is going to water half as soft as what
> they're in. Other than that (and assuming it's the same temperature!)
> no harm no foul.

I've seen fish die from pH shock without going through any changes in
water hardness. I've seen what pH burn does to fish. I don't think you
have the experience to make these claims.


>>life. Depending on the condition of the tank, you also risk removing
>>a large portion of your nitrifying bacteria.
>
> Nope, theres enough on the walls of the tank and the gravel to keep it
> going.

Read: Depending on the condition of the tank. New tanks, and tanks that
have just had demonstrated they've had a problem removing nitrogenous
wastes may not be able to hack it.


>>Depending on the sensitivity of the fish and the condition of the
>>water straight out of the tap, that large of a water change can cause
>>sudden death of a whole tank.
>
> Guys that breed discus and altums do this all the time and you
> couldn't find more sensitive fish.

I do this, and I know others who do this as well. We baby our fish. I
don't know anyone who breeds either commercially who advocates 80% water
changes.

I've seen discus go into shock, turn black, and start panting by being
given too large of a water change by a novice employee. You can fix the
water afterwards, but is it really worth putting those fish through
temporary stress when you don't need to?

You are advocating doing away with stability in favour of getting rid of
a little more nitrate a little faster, the lazy way. It is not a smart
idea.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
dc > wrote:
(Richard Sexton) wrote in
:
>
>> So? Fish don't care about pH, they cate about osmotic pressure. The
>> only thing they cannot tolerate is going to water half as soft as what
>> they're in. Other than that (and assuming it's the same temperature!)
>> no harm no foul.
>
>I've seen fish die from pH shock without going through any changes in
>water hardness. I've seen what pH burn does to fish. I don't think you
>have the experience to make these claims.

Well why don't you try a controlled test and see what happens. I've done
7.8 --> 4.5 regularly - no prolems. Hard to soft - problems.

Again, this was first documented in 1968.

>
>>>life. Depending on the condition of the tank, you also risk removing
>>>a large portion of your nitrifying bacteria.
>>
>> Nope, theres enough on the walls of the tank and the gravel to keep it
>> going.
>
>Read: Depending on the condition of the tank. New tanks, and tanks that
>have just had demonstrated they've had a problem removing nitrogenous
>wastes may not be able to hack it.

In other words, if there was none before there will still be none after.
I'm so shocked.

>>>Depending on the sensitivity of the fish and the condition of the
>>>water straight out of the tap, that large of a water change can cause
>>>sudden death of a whole tank.
>>
>> Guys that breed discus and altums do this all the time and you
>> couldn't find more sensitive fish.
>
>I do this, and I know others who do this as well. We baby our fish. I
>don't know anyone who breeds either commercially who advocates 80% water
>changes.

You should get out more then.

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[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article >,
> dc > wrote:
>
(Richard Sexton) wrote in
>>>Guys that breed discus and altums do this all the time and you
>>>couldn't find more sensitive fish.
>>
>>I do this, and I know others who do this as well. We baby our fish. I
>>don't know anyone who breeds either commercially who advocates 80% water
>>changes.
>
>
> You should get out more then.

You know, this partly depends on your water. In the summertime, I can
do 50%-75% water changes, no problem. In the winter, no matter how
carefully I match temps and splash the water to equalize gasses, I kill
sensitive fish like Otocinclus with anything more than about 30%.

--
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[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Altum > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>> In article >,
>> dc > wrote:
>>
(Richard Sexton) wrote in
>>>>Guys that breed discus and altums do this all the time and you
>>>>couldn't find more sensitive fish.
>>>
>>>I do this, and I know others who do this as well. We baby our fish. I
>>>don't know anyone who breeds either commercially who advocates 80% water
>>>changes.
>>
>>
>> You should get out more then.
>
>You know, this partly depends on your water. In the summertime, I can
>do 50%-75% water changes, no problem. In the winter, no matter how
>carefully I match temps and splash the water to equalize gasses, I kill
>sensitive fish like Otocinclus with anything more than about 30%.

last time I heard that I said "have you tested for hardness" and people
all around the lake ontario part of the province went "good god it's
40ppm! It's usually 375 ppm".

If it kills fish something is wrong. Probaby a good idea to find out what.

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[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Altum > wrote:
>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> dc > wrote:
>>>
(Richard Sexton) wrote in
>>>>>Guys that breed discus and altums do this all the time and you
>>>>>couldn't find more sensitive fish.
>>>>
>>>>I do this, and I know others who do this as well. We baby our fish.
>>>>I
>>>>don't know anyone who breeds either commercially who advocates 80%
>>>>water
>>>>changes.
>>>
>>>
>>> You should get out more then.
>>
>>You know, this partly depends on your water. In the summertime, I can
>>do 50%-75% water changes, no problem. In the winter, no matter how
>>carefully I match temps and splash the water to equalize gasses, I kill
>>sensitive fish like Otocinclus with anything more than about 30%.
>
> last time I heard that I said "have you tested for hardness" and people
> all around the lake ontario part of the province went "good god it's
> 40ppm! It's usually 375 ppm".
>
> If it kills fish something is wrong. Probaby a good idea to find out
> what.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net


In my limited experience in the trade, pH shock was losing credibility as
a significant cause of death or stress. Aside from the obvious stressors
(ammonia, nitrites and significant changes in osmotic pressure,
particularly downward) the thinking was that NO3 shock was a greater
stressor than previously thought. A change in NO3 of greater than 40ppm
would be sufficient to cause larger fish to show symptoms of stress, and
smaller fish had a significant mortality at NO3 shock greater than
30-40ppm.

I applied this theorem at work when moving fish into the stores, where
customers would typically have higher levels of NO3 in their tanks. I
would note the pH and kH levels (gH was known), and saw a pattern of
stress associated with NO3 shock. I then applied this in reverse, by
having regular customers do a sequence of water changes in their tanks
prior to adding fish from my store water (to lower their NO3 shock), and
this gave very good results (though there are many other variables
involved for it to be conclusive to any particular chemical element).

This was discussed with other store operators and the feedback was again
positive. Some (very few) were already aware of this, and others
reported a lower mortality rate after including NO3 measurements in their
transfer regiment. Again, without controls, it might just have been
their elevated awareness to test gH, pH and NO3 for transfers of
expensive, fragile or small stressed fish, but overall, I would be on the
side of making NO3 changes gradually.

The elevated NO3 levels are not killing the fish, so making rapid changes
would not be warranted, even if they were proven to be safe. jmo

A note to the OP, if you have 140ppm of NO3 _after_ doing water changes,
I would immediately be testing for pH and kH, as old-tank syndrome would
be suspect and potentially causing you trouble. Your water-change
routine and gravel vacuuming will need to be increased.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>
> last time I heard that I said "have you tested for hardness" and people
> all around the lake ontario part of the province went "good god it's
> 40ppm! It's usually 375 ppm".
>
> If it kills fish something is wrong. Probaby a good idea to find out what.
>
No kidding.

Last winter I tried all my test kits and tested for ammonia, nitrite,
nitrate, phosphate, iron, and pH. Everything was undetectable and pH
was as high as in the summer. I even posted my water report here but
nobody saw anything amiss.

The local water company does periodically flush extra chloramine through
the water system, but I always use a double dose of AmQuel to
compensate. On the rare occasions that a double dose isn't enough, the
shrimp start swimming around like crazy and I add AmQuel until they
settle back down.

I had hardness dip strips and they tested soft on rainwater and quite
hard on the tank and tapwater. I guess I'll have to get a real hardness
kit. I've been meaning to anyway.

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[Richard Sexton]

>The local water company does periodically flush extra chloramine through
>the water system, but I always use a double dose of AmQuel to
>compensate. On the rare occasions that a double dose isn't enough, the
>shrimp start swimming around like crazy and I add AmQuel until they
>settle back down.

Occams razor just kicked in.


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[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>The local water company does periodically flush extra chloramine through
>>the water system, but I always use a double dose of AmQuel to
>>compensate. On the rare occasions that a double dose isn't enough, the
>>shrimp start swimming around like crazy and I add AmQuel until they
>>settle back down.
>
>
> Occams razor just kicked in.
>
>
How fast does excess chloramine kill fish?!? I've never tested on
purpose, but I thought it was much slower than chlorine. I watch the
shrimp and add that extra squirt AmQuel within...maybe three minutes of
finishing filling the tank. Occams razor says that's not fast enough, eh?

I'm going to start triple dosing. *sigh* I'm gonna have to start
buying AmQuel by the gallon.

Out of curiosity, does anyone out there whith chloramine get by with 5
ml/10 gallons of AmQuel or is that simply not enough for most municipal
water?

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[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Altum > wrote:
>How fast does excess chloramine kill fish?!?

I only saw it once. Drained half a tank, filled it back up
with tapwater and befoe I could put the hose away one
fish was dong that helicoptog thing and was dead in a
few minutes. Very very fast.

That was the last time I used LA tapwater. I got some
mardel chlorine/chloramine test strips and sure enough
chloramine regsitered 1-2 ppm just like it was supposed
to be. Same with Toronto water.

AmQuel is your friend.

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