Installing background in running tank

[FishNoob]

Hi everyone - I'm still here, reading and learning (though often
waaaay behind!)

My Rio 125 has been running for about three months. The current
inhabitants are six mollies, four danios and two neon tetras. Have
been treating ich since last Saturday, though all looking good now.

I want to add a background, more gravel, live plants and some more
fish (starting with clown loaches, Gill ;-)). My main question now is
about the background. Can I install a background in an aquarium that
contains water? I'm planning on the Juwel STR (two pieces of 450). I
thought that if I lowered the water to between 1/3 and 1/2 capacity,
I could slide the background in on an angle and silicone the bit
above the water. Is this do-able or am I going to have to empty the
tank and move the fish?

How long after aplying silicone before I can re-fill the tank? And
will my filter survive for that length of time or do I need to remove
it and bag it?

(Planning to buy the background today, so quickish answers would be
great! :-) )

--
FishNoob

[CanadianCray]

IMO it can be done as long as you can keep the filter running. I would
personally take the water out of the tank & put it in a temporary container.
Then put you Filter & fish in the temp container that way they are both safe
& out of harms way. Silicone should be allowed to cure for at least 24hours.
If after 24hours the vinegar smell is gone it should be ok.

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone - I'm still here, reading and learning (though often
> waaaay behind!)
>
> My Rio 125 has been running for about three months. The current
> inhabitants are six mollies, four danios and two neon tetras. Have
> been treating ich since last Saturday, though all looking good now.
>
> I want to add a background, more gravel, live plants and some more
> fish (starting with clown loaches, Gill ;-)). My main question now is
> about the background. Can I install a background in an aquarium that
> contains water? I'm planning on the Juwel STR (two pieces of 450). I
> thought that if I lowered the water to between 1/3 and 1/2 capacity,
> I could slide the background in on an angle and silicone the bit
> above the water. Is this do-able or am I going to have to empty the
> tank and move the fish?
>
> How long after aplying silicone before I can re-fill the tank? And
> will my filter survive for that length of time or do I need to remove
> it and bag it?
>
> (Planning to buy the background today, so quickish answers would be
> great! :-) )
>
> --
> FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> Hi everyone - I'm still here, reading and learning (though often
> waaaay behind!)
>
> My Rio 125 has been running for about three months. The current
> inhabitants are six mollies, four danios and two neon tetras. Have
> been treating ich since last Saturday, though all looking good now.
>
> I want to add a background, more gravel, live plants and some more
> fish (starting with clown loaches, Gill ;-)). My main question now is
> about the background. Can I install a background in an aquarium that
> contains water? I'm planning on the Juwel STR (two pieces of 450). I
> thought that if I lowered the water to between 1/3 and 1/2 capacity,
> I could slide the background in on an angle and silicone the bit
> above the water. Is this do-able or am I going to have to empty the
> tank and move the fish?
>
> How long after aplying silicone before I can re-fill the tank? And
> will my filter survive for that length of time or do I need to remove
> it and bag it?
>
> (Planning to buy the background today, so quickish answers would be
> great! :-) )
>

Backgrounds are normally fixed to the back of the tank on the outside -
I use sellotape to fix mine - you need to be careful to avoid air
bubbles although these can give a more textured look (did it by accident
on the Malawi tank). So if you are off to buy the type of background
that I understand that you are just go buy it, manovoure it behind the
tank and get sticking....

Gill

PS I wouldn't go adding any Clowns until you are totally sure that you
are clear of ich (they are very susceptible to it). I'd wait at least
another week if not more so that you are totally certain that the ich
has gone...

[CanadianCray]

This is the background that is being installed.

http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/strukturrckwnde56.htm

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> FishNoob wrote:
>> Hi everyone - I'm still here, reading and learning (though often waaaay
>> behind!)
>>
>> My Rio 125 has been running for about three months. The current
>> inhabitants are six mollies, four danios and two neon tetras. Have been
>> treating ich since last Saturday, though all looking good now.
>>
>> I want to add a background, more gravel, live plants and some more fish
>> (starting with clown loaches, Gill ;-)). My main question now is about
>> the background. Can I install a background in an aquarium that contains
>> water? I'm planning on the Juwel STR (two pieces of 450). I thought that
>> if I lowered the water to between 1/3 and 1/2 capacity, I could slide the
>> background in on an angle and silicone the bit above the water. Is this
>> do-able or am I going to have to empty the tank and move the fish?
>>
>> How long after aplying silicone before I can re-fill the tank? And will
>> my filter survive for that length of time or do I need to remove it and
>> bag it?
>>
>> (Planning to buy the background today, so quickish answers would be
>> great! :-) )
>>
>
> Backgrounds are normally fixed to the back of the tank on the outside - I
> use sellotape to fix mine - you need to be careful to avoid air bubbles
> although these can give a more textured look (did it by accident on the
> Malawi tank). So if you are off to buy the type of background that I
> understand that you are just go buy it, manovoure it behind the tank and
> get sticking....
>
> Gill
>
> PS I wouldn't go adding any Clowns until you are totally sure that you are
> clear of ich (they are very susceptible to it). I'd wait at least another
> week if not more so that you are totally certain that the ich has gone...

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Backgrounds are normally fixed to the back of the tank on the outside -
> I use sellotape to fix mine - you need to be careful to avoid air
> bubbles although these can give a more textured look (did it by accident
> on the Malawi tank). So if you are off to buy the type of background
> that I understand that you are just go buy it, manovoure it behind the
> tank and get sticking....

I thought these structured backgrounds went inside the tank?

There are silicone marks on the glass from when a background was in
it before, and I assume they'd show if I was to use a background that
attached to the back of the tank. Having said that, it might be worth
a go, for the sake of convenience.

> PS I wouldn't go adding any Clowns until you are totally sure that you
> are clear of ich (they are very susceptible to it). I'd wait at least
> another week if not more so that you are totally certain that the ich
> has gone...

<nod> I know they're very susceptible. But I wasn't planning on
putting them in for at *least* another week anyway, as I want to
order plants on-line too. If I get a background in these weekend, I
can order plants at the beginning of next week for delivery next
Friday, put those in on Friday evening or Saturday, and then probably
not add the clown loaches until the following weekend. It's too
difficult to try to do anything much when I'm here with the kids on
my own, and the baby wants me and only me in the evenings, so
weekends are the only time I can do this kind of thing. I'm not
complaining - I know how fast the little ones grow up :-) - I just
have to plan a little more carefully :-)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> IMO it can be done as long as you can keep the filter running. I would
> personally take the water out of the tank & put it in a temporary container.
> Then put you Filter & fish in the temp container that way they are both safe
> & out of harms way. Silicone should be allowed to cure for at least 24hours.
> If after 24hours the vinegar smell is gone it should be ok.

*sigh* Moving the fish is something I'd wanted to avoid. Plus the
filter set-up from the Rio is too big for my other tank, so I'd have
to just leave the sponges sitting in the water.

I've had the filter from my smaller tank running in the Rio, so it's
still active. It's smaller, and attaches to the glass with sucker-
feet. Could I turn off the Rio filter, put the old filter on its side
near the bottom of the tank, and reduce the water level to about 1/3
of its normal level? That way the fish wouldn't need moved, but I
could give the silicone as long as it needed to set. And the old
filter would be running the whole time. I assume I'd need to leave
both filters running for a while to re-start the Rio filter. Would
that work?

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Backgrounds are normally fixed to the back of the tank on the outside -
>>I use sellotape to fix mine - you need to be careful to avoid air
>>bubbles although these can give a more textured look (did it by accident
>>on the Malawi tank). So if you are off to buy the type of background
>>that I understand that you are just go buy it, manovoure it behind the
>>tank and get sticking....
>
>
> I thought these structured backgrounds went inside the tank?
>
> There are silicone marks on the glass from when a background was in
> it before, and I assume they'd show if I was to use a background that
> attached to the back of the tank. Having said that, it might be worth
> a go, for the sake of convenience.
>
>
>>PS I wouldn't go adding any Clowns until you are totally sure that you
>>are clear of ich (they are very susceptible to it). I'd wait at least
>>another week if not more so that you are totally certain that the ich
>>has gone...
>
>
> <nod> I know they're very susceptible. But I wasn't planning on
> putting them in for at *least* another week anyway, as I want to
> order plants on-line too. If I get a background in these weekend, I
> can order plants at the beginning of next week for delivery next
> Friday, put those in on Friday evening or Saturday, and then probably
> not add the clown loaches until the following weekend. It's too
> difficult to try to do anything much when I'm here with the kids on
> my own, and the baby wants me and only me in the evenings, so
> weekends are the only time I can do this kind of thing. I'm not
> complaining - I know how fast the little ones grow up :-) - I just
> have to plan a little more carefully :-)
>

Sorry - I did the search on the background - and yep it is internal so
if that is what you are after then I guess it is silicone...never tried
it myself - I just have the external ones...

Know what you mean about little ones - takes me three times as long to
do anything with my 4 year old in tow "helping" :-)

Gill

[CanadianCray]

Doesn't even have to be another tank. I have used a Rubbermaid container.

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> IMO it can be done as long as you can keep the filter running. I would
>> personally take the water out of the tank & put it in a temporary
>> container.
>> Then put you Filter & fish in the temp container that way they are both
>> safe
>> & out of harms way. Silicone should be allowed to cure for at least
>> 24hours.
>> If after 24hours the vinegar smell is gone it should be ok.
>
> *sigh* Moving the fish is something I'd wanted to avoid. Plus the
> filter set-up from the Rio is too big for my other tank, so I'd have
> to just leave the sponges sitting in the water.
>
> I've had the filter from my smaller tank running in the Rio, so it's
> still active. It's smaller, and attaches to the glass with sucker-
> feet. Could I turn off the Rio filter, put the old filter on its side
> near the bottom of the tank, and reduce the water level to about 1/3
> of its normal level? That way the fish wouldn't need moved, but I
> could give the silicone as long as it needed to set. And the old
> filter would be running the whole time. I assume I'd need to leave
> both filters running for a while to re-start the Rio filter. Would
> that work?
>
> --
> FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Would
> that work?

.... and, of course, putting the old heater in too, again on its side
under the water.

Any thoughts?

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> As far as I know these ones are installed inside aswell. I assume he is
> talking about the picture backgrounds that go on the outside.

Who's this "he"? Gill and I are both of the fairer sex :-)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Doesn't even have to be another tank. I have used a Rubbermaid container.

Heh - I've got another tank, I haven't got a Rubbermaid container!

It's the hassle of the process and the stress on the fish that makes
me reluctant, not the availability of a reasonable container.

--
FishNoob

[CanadianCray]

Sorry about that ladies. Force of habit. You have to think about it from a
fishes point of view. They will be in the same water as usual & the stress
is not really that bad. Fish are much stronger than many people think. One
thing that will stress them out is if you "KILL" your biological filter by
not running the filter with the fish. That can cause a cycle which can kill
your fish. The heater is not a big deal as long as they are in a heated room
the temp shouldn't fluctuate too much & should stay within safe levels.
"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> Doesn't even have to be another tank. I have used a Rubbermaid container.
>
> Heh - I've got another tank, I haven't got a Rubbermaid container!
>
> It's the hassle of the process and the stress on the fish that makes
> me reluctant, not the availability of a reasonable container.
>
> --
> FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Sorry about that ladies. Force of habit. You have to think about it from a
> fishes point of view. They will be in the same water as usual & the stress
> is not really that bad. Fish are much stronger than many people think.

Well yeah, but there's the stress on me too ;-)

Besides, those danios are hard to catch - they're quick little
beggars!

Would what I've suggested work? Can anyone see any problems with it?

--
FishNoob

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 16:30:53 -0000, FishNoob >
wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> Sorry about that ladies. Force of habit. You have to think about it from a
>> fishes point of view. They will be in the same water as usual & the stress
>> is not really that bad. Fish are much stronger than many people think.
>
>Well yeah, but there's the stress on me too ;-)
>
>Besides, those danios are hard to catch - they're quick little
>beggars!
>
>Would what I've suggested work? Can anyone see any problems with it?

The only problem I see with your plan is that it's going to be pretty
hard on you. If you take Prozac, double your dose until the project is
over. The fish will probably enjoy the ride and the change of scenery.
If the fish seem to be getting stressed out, toss a couple of Prozac
to them too. Maybe you could tape the Sunday Comics page on the wall
of their temporary tank. Give them something to do while you fret. Now
if it were my tank . . . I'd give it the same background that all my
others have - a piece of black, dark grey, or dark blue fabric, with a
weave or faint print to give it some texture, a couple of pieces of
invisible tape and call it good. Corduroy and heavy flannels work
nicely. I also have several other tanks, usually used for breeding and
raising fry, that I've spray painted the back and bottom glass with
flat black barbecue paint. Saves a trip to the dressmaker each time I
set one of them up.

-- Mr Gardener

[Frank]

FishNoob wrote,
>Plus the
>filter set-up from the Rio is too big for my other tank, so I'd have
>to just leave the sponges sitting in the water..........
>Could I turn off the Rio filter, put the old filter on its side
>near the bottom of the tank, and reduce the water level to about 1/3
>of its normal level?

Hi, I'm Frank, a spill over from alt. aquaria news group.

The bacteria colony within the filter needs an air supply (water flow)
or the colony will die. You could put the filter on a 5 gal. plastic
bucket filled with the tank water you need to remove to install the
background and install the filter on the bucket. I beleave silicone
takes 48 hours to cure .......... Frank

[FishNoob]

In article . com>,
says...
> Hi, I'm Frank, a spill over from alt. aquaria news group.

Hi Frank :-)

> The bacteria colony within the filter needs an air supply (water flow)
> or the colony will die. You could put the filter on a 5 gal. plastic
> bucket filled with the tank water you need to remove to install the
> background and install the filter on the bucket. I beleave silicone
> takes 48 hours to cure .......... Frank

There are two filters involved here - the one that's integral to the
Rio 125, and the one from my old tank, which has been inside the 125
tank for the last three months (I've had both running).

The old one would be the one that would be running inside the 125
during this procedure, so it would be operating as normal. The other
- the larger filter from the 125 - wouldn't be. That's why I'd be
leaving both filters in the 125 afterwards - to give the larger one a
chance to re-colonise.

Make sense? Or am I missing something?

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> The only problem I see with your plan is that it's going to be pretty
> hard on you.

Do you think so? I'm thinking:

Tomorrow: drain water to 1/3 usual level, move old filter towards the
bottom of the tank, put old heater in too, silicone dry bit of back
of tank, slide background in, press into place.

Sunday/Monday (once silicone has cured): replace water to its usual
level. Start Rio 125 filter running again.

That doesn't seem like a whole lot of work. Less than adding the
plants next weekend anyway!

> If you take Prozac, double your dose until the project is
> over. The fish will probably enjoy the ride and the change of scenery.
> If the fish seem to be getting stressed out, toss a couple of Prozac
> to them too. Maybe you could tape the Sunday Comics page on the wall
> of their temporary tank. Give them something to do while you fret.

LOL

> Now
> if it were my tank . . . I'd give it the same background that all my
> others have - a piece of black, dark grey, or dark blue fabric, with a
> weave or faint print to give it some texture, a couple of pieces of
> invisible tape and call it good. Corduroy and heavy flannels work
> nicely. I also have several other tanks, usually used for breeding and
> raising fry, that I've spray painted the back and bottom glass with
> flat black barbecue paint. Saves a trip to the dressmaker each time I
> set one of them up.

The fabric is a good idea; I hadn't thought of that. Might do that on
the smaller tank when I get around to setting it up again. But there
are silicone smears from where a background had previously been in
the Rio 125, so I think I really need to put something *inside* it,
because with a background on the outside, those will be visible.

--
FishNoob

[CanadianCray]

Just remember. Since you have been running with two filters the have been
sharing the load between them. If you take one out of the equation in a
small tank it can cause a mini cycle. Now take into consideration you are
going to have the same number of fish with 1/3 the water in the tank. If a
mini cycle does happen you could be looking at ammonia & nitrite levels
rising quickly.


"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> The only problem I see with your plan is that it's going to be pretty
>> hard on you.
>
> Do you think so? I'm thinking:
>
> Tomorrow: drain water to 1/3 usual level, move old filter towards the
> bottom of the tank, put old heater in too, silicone dry bit of back
> of tank, slide background in, press into place.
>
> Sunday/Monday (once silicone has cured): replace water to its usual
> level. Start Rio 125 filter running again.
>
> That doesn't seem like a whole lot of work. Less than adding the
> plants next weekend anyway!
>
>> If you take Prozac, double your dose until the project is
>> over. The fish will probably enjoy the ride and the change of scenery.
>> If the fish seem to be getting stressed out, toss a couple of Prozac
>> to them too. Maybe you could tape the Sunday Comics page on the wall
>> of their temporary tank. Give them something to do while you fret.
>
> LOL
>
>> Now
>> if it were my tank . . . I'd give it the same background that all my
>> others have - a piece of black, dark grey, or dark blue fabric, with a
>> weave or faint print to give it some texture, a couple of pieces of
>> invisible tape and call it good. Corduroy and heavy flannels work
>> nicely. I also have several other tanks, usually used for breeding and
>> raising fry, that I've spray painted the back and bottom glass with
>> flat black barbecue paint. Saves a trip to the dressmaker each time I
>> set one of them up.
>
> The fabric is a good idea; I hadn't thought of that. Might do that on
> the smaller tank when I get around to setting it up again. But there
> are silicone smears from where a background had previously been in
> the Rio 125, so I think I really need to put something *inside* it,
> because with a background on the outside, those will be visible.
>
> --
> FishNoob

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
CanadianCray > wrote:
>Just remember. Since you have been running with two filters the have been
>sharing the load between them. If you take one out of the equation in a
>small tank it can cause a mini cycle. Now take into consideration you are
>going to have the same number of fish with 1/3 the water in the tank. If a
>mini cycle does happen you could be looking at ammonia & nitrite levels
>rising quickly.

Oh cycle schmycle. Turns out Barr is right (again). Stick 3" of
floating plants in any tank and you don't need to cycle it.

I tried it a few times, it works. Damn his eyes.

Water sprite, sprigs of hygro, duckweed, hornwort, that sorta
stuff.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Frank]

FishNoob wrote,
>There are two filters involved here ..........
>The old one would be the one that would be running inside the 125
>during this procedure, so it would be operating as normal. The other
>- the larger filter from the 125 - wouldn't be.

Mabe I'm the one missing something here (?) - if both filters were on
the same tank to start with, the bacteria colony needed for the
bio-load would be split between the two filters. To remove one and let
half the bacteria colony die off, the colony within the other filter
would be under sized, alowing mini spikes of ammonia and nitrites while
the other filter is re-colonising - playing 'catch up' for the next few
weeks. Now, if it were to be placed on the side of a bucket of tank
water, and fed a few drops of pure ammonia every day, for however long,
there wouldn't be any die off of the colony and no need to cycle the
filter again - jmo............ Frank

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Just remember. Since you have been running with two filters the have been
> sharing the load between them. If you take one out of the equation in a
> small tank it can cause a mini cycle. Now take into consideration you are
> going to have the same number of fish with 1/3 the water in the tank. If a
> mini cycle does happen you could be looking at ammonia & nitrite levels
> rising quickly.

Hm. Yes, I see what you mean. I was thinking it would be okay because
the amount of water would still be enough for the stock level, and
that taking one filter out would be the same as taking one out to
start a new tank. And there'd be 2/3 fresh water going in once the
silicone was cured... making a large water-change. Does that still
sound problematic?

How do people manage when they keep an extra filter running for use
in new or quarantine tanks? Do you not remove half the filter media
from an established tank to start the new one?


--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Oh cycle schmycle. Turns out Barr is right (again). Stick 3" of
> floating plants in any tank and you don't need to cycle it.
>
> I tried it a few times, it works. Damn his eyes.
>
> Water sprite, sprigs of hygro, duckweed, hornwort, that sorta
> stuff.

Really? I've never read anything like that. Admittedly I've only been
reading about fish-keeping for about four months, but I've read a lot
:-). Who's this Barr person then? And why does this system work?

--
FishNoob

[richard_b]

http://www.barrreport.com/

you need to register (For free) to see some of his stuff. an expert in
plant fertilization.

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Oh cycle schmycle. Turns out Barr is right (again). Stick 3" of
> > floating plants in any tank and you don't need to cycle it.
> >
> > I tried it a few times, it works. Damn his eyes.
> >
> > Water sprite, sprigs of hygro, duckweed, hornwort, that sorta
> > stuff.
>
> Really? I've never read anything like that. Admittedly I've only been
> reading about fish-keeping for about four months, but I've read a lot
> :-). Who's this Barr person then? And why does this system work?
>
> --
> FishNoob

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
. ..
> How do people manage when they keep an extra filter running for use
> in new or quarantine tanks? Do you not remove half the filter media
> from an established tank to start the new one?
=====================
Speaking for myself - I remove the whole filter to the new tank. A filter
that's been on an established tank for a week or two at least. It seldom
fails. A few platys keep the cycle going in my 10g quarantine tank.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
FishNoob > wrote:
>In article >,
>says...
>> Oh cycle schmycle. Turns out Barr is right (again). Stick 3" of
>> floating plants in any tank and you don't need to cycle it.
>>
>> I tried it a few times, it works. Damn his eyes.
>>
>> Water sprite, sprigs of hygro, duckweed, hornwort, that sorta
>> stuff.
>
>Really? I've never read anything like that. Admittedly I've only been
>reading about fish-keeping for about four months, but I've read a lot
>:-). Who's this Barr person then? And why does this system work?

Tom Barr; he's hung out here for a long time and is the genius that
cracked the nut of aquarium plant fertilization without spending $5000
on dupla stuff.

It works because the plants, when fertilsized, eat all the ammonia.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone - I'm still here, reading and learning (though often
> waaaay behind!)
>
> My Rio 125 has been running for about three months. The current
> inhabitants are six mollies, four danios and two neon tetras. Have
> been treating ich since last Saturday, though all looking good now.
>
> I want to add a background, more gravel, live plants and some more
> fish (starting with clown loaches, Gill ;-)). My main question now is
> about the background. Can I install a background in an aquarium that
> contains water? I'm planning on the Juwel STR (two pieces of 450). I
> thought that if I lowered the water to between 1/3 and 1/2 capacity,
> I could slide the background in on an angle and silicone the bit
> above the water. Is this do-able or am I going to have to empty the
> tank and move the fish?

Do-able. Heater to the bottom, filter to the bottom or recirculating in
a pail.

> How long after aplying silicone before I can re-fill the tank? And
> will my filter survive for that length of time or do I need to remove
> it and bag it?

General silicone takes 3 days to fully cure, and it hard after 24 hours.
Underwater silicone can be applied..... underwater :o), so no messing
around with bringing the water level down and moving filters. Underwater
silicone is not readily available though. Epoxy could be used, fast
curing but more permanent. I would explore using rocks to hold it in
place. They used to sell stainless steel clips for this (and holding
tank dividers in place). Suction cups might help (with a ty-rap, nylon
string etc).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> (Planning to buy the background today, so quickish answers would be
> great! :-) )
>
> --
> FishNoob

[Frank]

NetMax wrote,
>Underwater silicone can be applied...........

Hmmmm - haven't heard of it, something new? Isn't harmfull while it's
curing? ............... Frank

[FishNoob]

In article . com>,
says...
> In theory, you should be able to remove enough water to make the
> surface an inch or so below it's usual height, then apply this tape to
> the exposed inch. Tuck the background in behind the gravel at the
> bottom of the tank, then tape it at the top.

I'm thinking that I could probably do the same with the silicone -
i.e., my original plan, but much less silicone, only applying to the
top inch or two of the background, and thus only needing the water-
level to be slightly lower than usual.

I can look for the clips NetMax talked about for the bottom, and in
the meantime use the large pieces of wood that are already in the
tank to hold the bottom against the back of the tank.

The reasons I'm thinking this would work:
- the background is very light, it's not going to fall off because of
weight
- there's no movement worth considering - the aquarium doesn't move,
the fish aren't big enough to bump into the background with any force
worth considering
- silicone is fairly strong stuff

Comments?

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Speaking for myself - I remove the whole filter to the new tank. A filter
> that's been on an established tank for a week or two at least. It seldom
> fails.

But if you're keeping the old tank going *and* setting up a new tank?
What then?

(Not that I'd be considering setting up a second tank or anything...
oh, no, I'd never be thinking of anything like that... ;-))

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Know what you mean about little ones - takes me three times as long to
> do anything with my 4 year old in tow "helping" :-)

My 3yo (nearly 4) also likes to "help", but the biggest hindrance to
getting this stuff done right now is my six-month-old, though as I
said, I'm not complaining. The "interested" 6yo and 8yo also add
constant interruption, and the 11yo - well, he just thinks he knows
it all, so he either tells me what to do or demands full explanation
of everything I'm doing.

Definitely easier to wait until the weekend! LOL

--
FishNoob

[NetMax]

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> NetMax wrote,
>>Underwater silicone can be applied...........
>
> Hmmmm - haven't heard of it, something new? Isn't harmfull while it's
> curing? ............... Frank


It sure surprised me. During a store fish-room install, I saw the
installers use a black silicone to stop leaks in all-glass tanks. The
tanks already had water and fish in them, and they just reached inside
with the caulking gun and put down a bead. The repairs were relatively
small sections, so perhaps this is why they were not worried about the
fish, but I had never seen a silicone which didn't need atmospheric
contact to cure and outgas.

The installers were very secretive about the stuff, but I got a look at
the tube later. Unfortunately, all the text was in German. The
installation crew was from DAS (Dutch Aquarium Systems), an American
company (they have a web site). Months later, I made mention of this
here, and a few posters has acknowledged that they had seen/used similar
products, so I thought it might be becoming more mainstream by now.

ps: Welcome to rafm Frank!!! (if you ask me, I think you should've
always been posting here, instead of alt.aquaria ;~) By way of
introduction to the group, Frank is a long-time fish-keeper, breeder
_and_ owner/operator of fish retail operations. His technical prowess
around diseased fish will have you hunting for obscure chemicals in your
pharmacy (or on a first name basis with your vet), and he will have you
doing water changes (or you'll be hearing about what is really happening
to your water when you don't). Frank's also got a lot of DIY experience
in the construction of tanks, their plumbing and various filtration
systems, so alt.aquaria's loss is rafm's gain :-).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[FishNoob]

Update: well, it's done :-)

I started off by trying to work out the best way to cut the
background to fit. Once I'd decided on that, I turned off the
electrics, took about 1/2 the water out of the tank, and moved as
much of the gravel etc towards the front as I could. Then I slid the
first cut panel down on an angle and waited for the nosy fish in
behind it to leave ;-) and then pressed it against the glass. Because
there's a notch cut out to accomodate the horizontal bar that runs
across the centre of the tank (from front to back), it was held down.
Then I cut the other one to fit - cutting less rather than more,
which meant I had to trim it twice more, but also meant that when it
was in, it was a very neat fit up against the filter housing (in the
back right corner). Several "argh" moments when I discovered tiny
snails on my skin or - more frequently - mistook freckles for snails
LOL

Tilted each panel slightly forwards, leaving the bottom of each one
touching the back bottom edge of the tank, then pushed them back
against the glass and held them for a minute or two. Used a piece of
wood to hold the bottom of the first one against the glass while it
cured, as the bottom of it was tending to float away from the glass
slightly. Re-arranged plants (fake), wood, rocks, gravel, and
checked/cleaned my filters.

I'd made a note of how low the water-level could go while still
allowing the filter and heater to run, so made sure I only applied
silicone above that level, and topped the water up to just that
point. Counted fish, waited with bated breath for the last one to
emerge from behind the plants.

And then, three hours later, on automatic pilot, I topped the water
up to the top.

Brilliant, eh? *hits self over head*

Now watching to see if anything looks worrying - like cloudiness or
panels coming off or (fingers crossed) fish falling over...

--
FishNoob

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> Speaking for myself - I remove the whole filter to the new tank. A
>> filter
>> that's been on an established tank for a week or two at least. It seldom
>> fails.
>
> But if you're keeping the old tank going *and* setting up a new tank?
> What then?

I've done it both ways. If I need a "seeded" filter in a hurry I just take
either the whole filter and move it to the new tank or hospital/quarantine
tank or I remove about 1/2 the material from the seeded filter to the
unseeded filter. Either way usually (BUT NOT ALWAYS) works. Sometimes, for
some reason, the 1/2 seeded material doesn't work on the new setup. I have
no explanation for why it fails. If I take the whole filter I just add a
clean unseeded one to the established tank. There is so much bacteria all
over the tank walls, gravel and plants that there is no problem with
ammonia - just don't feed the fish for at least 12 hours. The new filter
material quickly gets seeded from whatever bacteria are in the water.

If I know I will be setting up a new tank then I *add* the new filter to an
established tank for a week at least, longer is better. When I remove it to
the new tank I have yet to see an ammonia spike in the old tank.

> (Not that I'd be considering setting up a second tank or anything...
> oh, no, I'd never be thinking of anything like that... ;-))

Liar! Liar! Pants on fire! :-D Only kidding. There probably isn't a
person on this NG who isn't thinking of their next tank....

\> --
> FishNoob

Koi-Lo....

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> The reasons I'm thinking this would work:
> - the background is very light, it's not going to fall off because of
> weight
> - there's no movement worth considering - the aquarium doesn't move,
> the fish aren't big enough to bump into the background with any force
> worth considering
> - silicone is fairly strong stuff
>
> Comments?
==========================
My only concern is how you'll get algae off this background when clean-up
time comes, especially if it's hair or black brush algae. Also, how do you
keep water from getting behind it and stagnating? If water does get behind
it how do you keep that water moving so it doesn't stagnate? If that water
does turn foul how will it effect the fish?

Koi-Lo...

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> Update: well, it's done :-)
> Now watching to see if anything looks worrying - like cloudiness or
> panels coming off or (fingers crossed) fish falling over...
>
================
Keep us updated Noob. All my backgrounds are either spray painted, dark
cloth or those plastic things from the LFSs. I hope you can provide us with
a pic of your tank. I'd love to see what it looks like with an in-tank
background.

Koi-lo

[NetMax]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> Update: well, it's done :-)
>
<snip>
> And then, three hours later, on automatic pilot, I topped the water
> up to the top.
>
> Brilliant, eh? *hits self over head*
>
> Now watching to see if anything looks worrying - like cloudiness or
> panels coming off or (fingers crossed) fish falling over...
>
> --
> FishNoob


Glad that it's done. I'm not so sure about submerging silicone after
only 3 hours unless it's specified for it (so hopefully it is spec'ed for
it).

If it was garden variety silicone (hopefully not the type with
anti-fungal anti-mold properties as this one is toxic to fish), then does
anyone know what it outgases? (acetic acid?). Will it still cure?

fingers crossed too
--
www.NetMax.tk

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I've done it both ways. If I need a "seeded" filter in a hurry I just take
> either the whole filter and move it to the new tank or hospital/quarantine
> tank or I remove about 1/2 the material from the seeded filter to the
> unseeded filter. Either way usually (BUT NOT ALWAYS) works. Sometimes, for
> some reason, the 1/2 seeded material doesn't work on the new setup. I have
> no explanation for why it fails. If I take the whole filter I just add a
> clean unseeded one to the established tank. There is so much bacteria all
> over the tank walls, gravel and plants that there is no problem with
> ammonia - just don't feed the fish for at least 12 hours. The new filter
> material quickly gets seeded from whatever bacteria are in the water.

But the end result of what you do is the same as the result of what I
was planning to do - the bacteria living in the filter is cut in
half. (I didn't do that in the end, but I'm trying to understand
everything you're saying for when I *do* start a new tank... oops, I
let it slip LOL)

I'd have been using the same tank, gravel, plants... the only
difference between your moving a filter from your old tank to your
new one and my moving one of two filters out of the tank would be
where the removed filter went - there'd be no difference in what was
left behind.

Or am I confused?

I'm thinking the ideal way to set up a new tank would be to put half
the occupants of the old tank into the new one, along with half the
filter media, waiting for a few days and then gradually adding the
new fish to the new tank while also gradually moving the old fish
back to the old tank. Since I'm actually in a position where that
would be possible, does it sound like a) a good plan; b) a recipe for
disaster; or c) way more fuss than necessary? :-)


--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Glad that it's done. I'm not so sure about submerging silicone after
> only 3 hours unless it's specified for it (so hopefully it is spec'ed for
> it).
>
> If it was garden variety silicone (hopefully not the type with
> anti-fungal anti-mold properties as this one is toxic to fish), then does
> anyone know what it outgases? (acetic acid?). Will it still cure?

It's the Juwel brand silicone. The package says it will be hard after
one hour and fully-cured after 24. So far, so good. The water is
crystal-clear, the fish are active and look fine, and the background
is still stuck.

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> My only concern is how you'll get algae off this background when clean-up
> time comes, especially if it's hair or black brush algae.

Erm... dunno. I've seen this kind of background in a lot of tanks -
in fact I think it's the most common kind I've seen. It's certainly
sold everywhere. So I'm assuming it's not problematic, particularly
since it's a Juwel product in a Juwel tank.

> Also, how do you
> keep water from getting behind it and stagnating? If water does get behind
> it how do you keep that water moving so it doesn't stagnate? If that water
> does turn foul how will it effect the fish?

I can't see how water could get trapped behind it - if it can get in,
it can also get out, no?

--
FishNoob

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
=======
> But the end result of what you do is the same as the result of what I
> was planning to do - the bacteria living in the filter is cut in
> half. (I didn't do that in the end, but I'm trying to understand
> everything you're saying for when I *do* start a new tank... oops, I
> let it slip LOL)

I'm sure you will add tanks as time passes..... just like a junkie needs
more and more of his/her drug of choice. The cut in half bacteria in the
old filter makes little difference. They rapidly multiply when some are
removed. Remember, they're not only in the filter but on every surface in
your tank exposed to oxygen.

> I'd have been using the same tank, gravel, plants... the only
> difference between your moving a filter from your old tank to your
> new one and my moving one of two filters out of the tank would be
> where the removed filter went - there'd be no difference in what was
> left behind.
>
> Or am I confused?

If you chose to use gravel to seed a new tank only take the TOP layer where
the nitrifying bacteria are. I never found that to be helpful. Either move
the old seeded filter to the new tank - or take 1/2 the old filter material
and add that to the new filter for the new tank. Best way in my opinion is
to move the old seeded filter to the new tank, and put the new unseeded
filter on the old tank. That always worked best for me.

> I'm thinking the ideal way to set up a new tank would be to put half
> the occupants of the old tank into the new one, along with half the
> filter media, waiting for a few days and then gradually adding the
> new fish to the new tank while also gradually moving the old fish
> back to the old tank.

That sounds plausible. It should work.

Since I'm actually in a position where that
> would be possible, does it sound like a) a good plan; b) a recipe for
> disaster; or c) way more fuss than necessary? :-)

Yes. It sounds like it would work just fine. Feed cautiously for the first
48 hours or so after making the changes.

Koi-Lo


-------------
Get FREE newsgroup access from http://www.cheap56k.com

[NetMax]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> Glad that it's done. I'm not so sure about submerging silicone after
>> only 3 hours unless it's specified for it (so hopefully it is spec'ed
>> for
>> it).
>>
>> If it was garden variety silicone (hopefully not the type with
>> anti-fungal anti-mold properties as this one is toxic to fish), then
>> does
>> anyone know what it outgases? (acetic acid?). Will it still cure?
>
> It's the Juwel brand silicone. The package says it will be hard after
> one hour and fully-cured after 24. So far, so good. The water is
> crystal-clear, the fish are active and look fine, and the background
> is still stuck.
>
> --
> FishNoob

Some fresh carbon in the filter and a few extra water changes might be a
reasonable precaution then.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "FishNoob" > wrote in message
> ...
> =======
>
>> But the end result of what you do is the same as the result of what I
>> was planning to do - the bacteria living in the filter is cut in
>> half. (I didn't do that in the end, but I'm trying to understand
>> everything you're saying for when I *do* start a new tank... oops, I
>> let it slip LOL)
>
>
> I'm sure you will add tanks as time passes..... just like a junkie needs
> more and more of his/her drug of choice. The cut in half bacteria in the
> old filter makes little difference. They rapidly multiply when some are
> removed. Remember, they're not only in the filter but on every surface in
> your tank exposed to oxygen.
>
>> I'd have been using the same tank, gravel, plants... the only
>> difference between your moving a filter from your old tank to your
>> new one and my moving one of two filters out of the tank would be
>> where the removed filter went - there'd be no difference in what was
>> left behind.
>>
>> Or am I confused?
>
>
> If you chose to use gravel to seed a new tank only take the TOP layer where
> the nitrifying bacteria are. I never found that to be helpful. Either
> move
> the old seeded filter to the new tank - or take 1/2 the old filter material
> and add that to the new filter for the new tank. Best way in my opinion is
> to move the old seeded filter to the new tank, and put the new unseeded
> filter on the old tank. That always worked best for me.
>
>> I'm thinking the ideal way to set up a new tank would be to put half
>> the occupants of the old tank into the new one, along with half the
>> filter media, waiting for a few days and then gradually adding the
>> new fish to the new tank while also gradually moving the old fish
>> back to the old tank.
>
>
> That sounds plausible. It should work.
>
> Since I'm actually in a position where that
>
>> would be possible, does it sound like a) a good plan; b) a recipe for
>> disaster; or c) way more fuss than necessary? :-)
>
>
> Yes. It sounds like it would work just fine. Feed cautiously for the
> first
> 48 hours or so after making the changes.
>
> Koi-Lo
>
>
> -------------
> Get FREE newsgroup access from http://www.cheap56k.com
>

I'd be inclined NOT to move the existing fish over to a new tank unless
you specifically want to rehouse them...they will be stressed by the
multiple moves. When I seed a tank I usually add a few of the fish that
I want along with the filter medium - so both happen at the same time.

I'm guessing the reason that you are thinking of moving the existing
fish over is to keep the bacteria going - adding the actual fish that
you want in there would achieve the same thing. I'm always cautious
about the speed that I add the fish to the new tank - treating it like a
cycling tank (even though it isn't as such) - keep monitoring for
ammonia/nitrites after adding the fish - if these creep up then squeeze
the filter medium from your existing tank into the new one. Gravel in a
stocking toe is another one to try if the gravel is different.

Gill

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I'm guessing the reason that you are thinking of moving the existing
> fish over is to keep the bacteria going - adding the actual fish that
> you want in there would achieve the same thing.

No, I was actually thinking about the number of fish and the number
of bacteria. Moving one of two filters to the new tank means halving
the bacteria, so I was thinking that moving half the fish at the same
time would mean no increased load on the remaining filter, and then
adding fish gradually into both tanks (new fish into new tank, old
fish moving back into old tank).

Realistically, it's not something I'd do, because it is a lot of
trouble and I am much too impatient ;-) - it's just that the comments
about the bacteria level with my original plans got me thinking.

--
FishNoob

[Richard Sexton]

>Glad that it's done. I'm not so sure about submerging silicone after
>only 3 hours unless it's specified for it (so hopefully it is spec'ed for
>it).

As long as there is a "skin" it'll be ok.

>If it was garden variety silicone (hopefully not the type with
>anti-fungal anti-mold properties as this one is toxic to fish), then does
>anyone know what it outgases? (acetic acid?). Will it still cure?

Yes and yes.

Acetic acid is actually not that bad for your tank in small doese. For
some poeple it's good; they add small doses to conquor outrageous pH and
hardness. There was one guy on APD that coudn't grow anything without
adding some.

I use it, quite warm, to remove carbonate deposits and quite a bit
ends up in the tank. No fish, shrimp or plant was ever affected.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Some fresh carbon in the filter and a few extra water changes might be a
> reasonable precaution then.

No carbon in the filter - still treating for ich. I think the last
dose of meds will be Monday, but still watching.

I'll check levels of everything tomorrow morning and possibly do
another water change tomorrow evening (end of the weekend...)

--
FishNoob

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:07:42 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:


>I'm guessing the reason that you are thinking of moving the existing
>fish over is to keep the bacteria going - adding the actual fish that
>you want in there would achieve the same thing. I'm always cautious
>about the speed that I add the fish to the new tank - treating it like a
>cycling tank (even though it isn't as such) - keep monitoring for
>ammonia/nitrites after adding the fish - if these creep up then squeeze
>the filter medium from your existing tank into the new one. Gravel in a
>stocking toe is another one to try if the gravel is different.
>
>Gill

I'm using a little nylon mesh bag to contain my seeding gravel. I
hadn't thought of a stocking toe. Perhaps a stocking toe, before it
went into the laundry, might add some special sweetness that would
help my cycling along.

-- Mr Gardener

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> My only concern is how you'll get algae off this background when clean-up
>> time comes, especially if it's hair or black brush algae.
>
> Erm... dunno. I've seen this kind of background in a lot of tanks -
> in fact I think it's the most common kind I've seen. It's certainly
> sold everywhere. So I'm assuming it's not problematic, particularly
> since it's a Juwel product in a Juwel tank.
>
>> Also, how do you
>> keep water from getting behind it and stagnating? If water does get
>> behind
>> it how do you keep that water moving so it doesn't stagnate? If that
>> water
>> does turn foul how will it effect the fish?
>
> I can't see how water could get trapped behind it - if it can get in,
> it can also get out, no?
================
ONLY if there's a current to keep it moving. Since I've never seen this
kind of background I can't picture how you can keep water from getting
behind it if there's a space back there. Does it lay flat against the
glass?

Koi-Lo

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> ONLY if there's a current to keep it moving. Since I've never seen this
> kind of background I can't picture how you can keep water from getting
> behind it if there's a space back there. Does it lay flat against the
> glass?

Yes. Here it is on the manufacturer's website:

<http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/strukturrckwnde56.htm>

and there's a picture of it in use at:

<http://www.langardirect.com/product/Juwel.htm>

--
FishNoob

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >,
> says...
>> ONLY if there's a current to keep it moving. Since I've never seen this
>> kind of background I can't picture how you can keep water from getting
>> behind it if there's a space back there. Does it lay flat against the
>> glass?
>
> Yes. Here it is on the manufacturer's website:
>
> <http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/strukturrckwnde56.htm>
>
> and there's a picture of it in use at:
>
> <http://www.langardirect.com/product/Juwel.htm>
===============================
Ok, thanks. Now I understand. :-) I haven't seen anything remotely like
these here where I live.

Koi-Lo....