TFH magazine and fish aging.....

[Tynk]

Hi there fishy folks.
Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
Fish Hobbyist magazine?
I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
the main points with you if you'd like.
This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
know for sure?

[Koi-Lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there fishy folks.
> Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
> Fish Hobbyist magazine?
> I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
> the main points with you if you'd like.
> This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
> Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
> about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
> you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
> know for sure?
================================
I know little about copyright laws but sure would like that information.

Koi-Lo

[Mr. Gardener]

On 25 Feb 2006 08:15:12 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:

>Hi there fishy folks.
>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>the main points with you if you'd like.
>This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>know for sure?

I read the article and, like so many articles, it didn't fulfil its
promise of enriching my knowledge. No, that's not entirely true. The
ariticle did impress that we need to keep the fact that fishes age in
mind when we've torn out our hair diagnosing an undiagnosable problem.
And because of the manner in which the fish farming and shipping
businesses carry out their operations, it is likely that some fish may
be over a year old by the time they reach the pet shop tanks. I don't
know why I buy these magazines, for the pictures, maybe. I got the
March TFH last week and the April issue arrived today. At this rate, I
expect to see the Christmas 06 issue in a couple of months.

Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.

-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:31:35 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Hi there fishy folks.
>> Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>> Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>> I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>> the main points with you if you'd like.
>> This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>> Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>> about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>> you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>> know for sure?
>================================
>I know little about copyright laws but sure would like that information.
>
>Koi-Lo
Copyright issues are not issues as long as you don't tell the world
about it.

-- Mr Gardener

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Tynk > wrote:
>Hi there fishy folks.
>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>the main points with you if you'd like.
>This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>know for sure?

Yeah, I do.

TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can post
the whole thing.

Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
need to be small bits of the article.

Failing that, you are always free to summarise the article in your
own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.

I thought the article was pretty informative.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>Copyright issues are not issues as long as you don't tell the world
>about it.

TFH staffers, editors and authors reads this group from time to time.

I'm the only one that posts though.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I don't
> know why I buy these magazines, for the pictures, maybe.

Heh... most guys buy Playboy, but on this ng...

;-)

--
FishNoob

[Koi-Lo]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
> Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
> the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.
======================
I gave up on all the fish magazines a few years ago. They were too
redundant, too much sal****er information and too many of the same adds
month after month. I found myself thumbing through them and tossing them
out. I may pick one up from time to time at the LFS but they always
disappoint me. I get better information and more pictures than I can look
at right on the Internet.

Koi-Lo....

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:02:52 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article >,
>Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>>Copyright issues are not issues as long as you don't tell the world
>>about it.
>
>TFH staffers, editors and authors reads this group from time to time.
>
>I'm the only one that posts though.

Like I said . . . these activities are best managed in private email.
-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:00:46 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article . com>,
>Tynk > wrote:
>>Hi there fishy folks.
>>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>>the main points with you if you'd like.
>>This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>>Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>>about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>>you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>>know for sure?
>
>Yeah, I do.
>
>TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
>partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can post
>the whole thing.
>
>Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
>publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
>need to be small bits of the article.
>
>Failing that, you are always free to summarise the article in your
>own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
>physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.
>
>I thought the article was pretty informative.

I wished it had gone deeper, like more specifics on the potential
lifespan of more commonly kept fish. But as I said earlier, the
strongest part of the article that I took away with me is the I will
now pay closer attention to the aging issue. So in that sense, it was
a successful article. If I recall, the article featured a photo of an
aging betta, and on the day that issue arrived in my mail, someone
here was asking about aging bettas. Pretty timely article, in this
case.

-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:04:20 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
>> the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.
>======================
>I gave up on all the fish magazines a few years ago. They were too
>redundant, too much sal****er information and too many of the same adds
>month after month. I found myself thumbing through them and tossing them
>out. I may pick one up from time to time at the LFS but they always
>disappoint me. I get better information and more pictures than I can look
>at right on the Internet.
>
>Koi-Lo....
When I recently picked up a few copies of the big 3, AFM, FAMA, and
TFH, TFH was the only one that took me more than 10 minutes to read.
They've maintained some very good columnists, and I always enjoy
reading about fish collecting trips, visits to farms, etc. They seemed
to have dumbed down some, they don't seem to explore topics as "in
depth" as they used to, but then again, maybe it's me that has
changed, not the magazine. 30 years ago, TFH probably answered all the
questions my newbie brain asked. I've discovered the Practical
Fishkeeping web site, (is that the name of the mag from Great
Britain?), just beginning to explore what they are doing online. I've
applied for a member password a few times, and still haven't received
an email response. I don't know what a password will do for me, but I
want to find out.

-- Mr Gardener

[NetMax]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:00:46 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>>In article . com>,
>>Tynk > wrote:
>>>Hi there fishy folks.
>>>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>>>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>>>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>>>the main points with you if you'd like.
>>>This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>>>Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>>>about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>>>you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>>>know for sure?
>>
>>Yeah, I do.
>>
>>TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
>>partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can
>>post
>>the whole thing.
>>
>>Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
>>publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
>>need to be small bits of the article.
>>
>>Failing that, you are always free to summarise the article in your
>>own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
>>physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.
>>
>>I thought the article was pretty informative.
>
> I wished it had gone deeper, like more specifics on the potential
> lifespan of more commonly kept fish. But as I said earlier, the
> strongest part of the article that I took away with me is the I will
> now pay closer attention to the aging issue. So in that sense, it was
> a successful article. If I recall, the article featured a photo of an
> aging betta, and on the day that issue arrived in my mail, someone
> here was asking about aging bettas. Pretty timely article, in this
> case.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

All this chatter about something most of us can't see, and have been
given no motivation to buy ;~)

I would post what it is that is useful to discuss, with a note as to who
the author was, the magazine source, and make some effort to not mangle
the context. Wouldn't that satisfy any copyright issues?
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:04:20 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
>>>the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.
>>
>>======================
>>I gave up on all the fish magazines a few years ago. They were too
>>redundant, too much sal****er information and too many of the same adds
>>month after month. I found myself thumbing through them and tossing them
>>out. I may pick one up from time to time at the LFS but they always
>>disappoint me. I get better information and more pictures than I can look
>>at right on the Internet.
>>
>>Koi-Lo....
>
> When I recently picked up a few copies of the big 3, AFM, FAMA, and
> TFH, TFH was the only one that took me more than 10 minutes to read.
> They've maintained some very good columnists, and I always enjoy
> reading about fish collecting trips, visits to farms, etc. They seemed
> to have dumbed down some, they don't seem to explore topics as "in
> depth" as they used to, but then again, maybe it's me that has
> changed, not the magazine. 30 years ago, TFH probably answered all the
> questions my newbie brain asked. I've discovered the Practical
> Fishkeeping web site, (is that the name of the mag from Great
> Britain?), just beginning to explore what they are doing online. I've
> applied for a member password a few times, and still haven't received
> an email response. I don't know what a password will do for me, but I
> want to find out.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

Try registering again...it took just a few minutes for me to get the
mail with the password back from them.

I still keep meaning to subscribe to it. I've never seen it on sale at
an LFS and need to go into town to get a copy (not in local shops
either) - queue was way too long in the shop to buy the March edition so
I came home empty handed...I find it to be an interesting read (as is
some of the stuff on the web)

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mr. Gardener > wrote:
>When I recently picked up a few copies of the big 3, AFM, FAMA, and
>TFH, TFH was the only one that took me more than 10 minutes to read.
>They've maintained some very good columnists, and I always enjoy
>reading about fish collecting trips, visits to farms, etc. They seemed
>to have dumbed down some, they don't seem to explore topics as "in
>depth" as they used to, but then again, maybe it's me that has
>changed, not the magazine.

Well, about that. The first priority of any business is self
preservations and that means make money. TFH is averse to being
"too technical" since their primary audience is a single
fishtank owner. Go on and on about something in depth and
most aquarists start nodding off. But, Dave Borucha.. Borich..
Boaor, uh, "shaggy", the editor has a penchant for all things
highly technical and does what he can.

I used to prfer FAMA but my god what happend to that one?

AFM is specififally aimed at people that think TFH is too technical;
stop giggling, that's really wat they told me.

I used to collect TFH's at one point and had them going back to
the 50s and had most of them in the 70s and 80s. The production
quality is way better now, and there's more pictures (they LOVE
pictures, it sells magazines) and there are more articles
concerned with collcting in the wile. I remember it being
way back when a steady mix of 1) Wherever Herb Axelrod
went that year and 2) Whatever Hans Jochaim Richter bred that
week.

Some of th stuff is obvioulsy elemantray, but I LIVE for
Wayne Leibels column. None of it is relevant to me as
a non-cichlid keeper but the depth he goes into and his
knowledge of details of cichlid terra typica just floors me.

Never mind it's almost impossible to find in Canada
("we're working on that" is the steady chime for 2 years)

Luckily it shows up in may snailmaiul box gratis, with hand
written notes, probably in blood that say "hey asshole, your
article is two years late. Again."

Yeah yeah I'm working on it. THem. Whatever.

The other great one was Innes's _Aquarium_ magazine. Yu
can still get these off ebay and each one is a gem,
despite being as old as 60-70 years old.

The fun part is no matter how old any fish magazine is,
there's a picture of Rosario la Corte who I swear was
born with a net is his hand.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:39:00 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>
>Some of th stuff is obvioulsy elemantray, but I LIVE for
>Wayne Leibels column. None of it is relevant to me as
>a non-cichlid keeper but the depth he goes into and his
>knowledge of details of cichlid terra typica just floors me.

Yeah, that's one of the first I flip to. And Catfish corner. And I'm
starting to get into Laura the Skeptic. Freshwater/Sal****er Q&A is
taking up way too many pages - large print and lots of white space,
they could trim that by half and still get every word in. And what is
with these QA columns that seem to love messages that began, "Hi, I am
11 years old and I like fish. Why do mine keep dying?"
>
>Never mind it's almost impossible to find in Canada
>("we're working on that" is the steady chime for 2 years)

The only way I can get it here is by subscription. None of the lfs
sell it, they say the adverts are bad for their business - I say ****
man! Think! People read about this stuff and they've gotta have it so
they go to your shop and you sell it to them. So what if they say, no,
it's cheaper on the internet, they hang around and spend 50 bucks on
fish. Even Borders Books doesn't carry it here. Same with AFM.

>The other great one was Innes's _Aquarium_ magazine. Yu
>can still get these off ebay and each one is a gem,
>despite being as old as 60-70 years old.

I've been keeping my eyes open for that one at the giant book barn /
antique places around here. There are a couple that have amazing
collections of old magazines. I still have 20 or 30 TFHs on a shelf,
must be 70's, 80's, maybe I'll hibernate for a week and stay in bed
and read old TFHs for a week. Or two.


-- Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:18:55 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:00:46 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>>In article . com>,
>>>Tynk > wrote:
>>>>Hi there fishy folks.
>>>>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>>>>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>>>>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>>>>the main points with you if you'd like.
>>>>This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>>>>Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>>>>about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>>>>you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>>>>know for sure?
>>>
>>>Yeah, I do.
>>>
>>>TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
>>>partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can
>>>post
>>>the whole thing.
>>>
>>>Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
>>>publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
>>>need to be small bits of the article.
>>>
>>>Failing that, you are always free to summarise the article in your
>>>own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
>>>physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.
>>>
>>>I thought the article was pretty informative.
>>
>> I wished it had gone deeper, like more specifics on the potential
>> lifespan of more commonly kept fish. But as I said earlier, the
>> strongest part of the article that I took away with me is the I will
>> now pay closer attention to the aging issue. So in that sense, it was
>> a successful article. If I recall, the article featured a photo of an
>> aging betta, and on the day that issue arrived in my mail, someone
>> here was asking about aging bettas. Pretty timely article, in this
>> case.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>All this chatter about something most of us can't see, and have been
>given no motivation to buy ;~)
>
>I would post what it is that is useful to discuss, with a note as to who
>the author was, the magazine source, and make some effort to not mangle
>the context. Wouldn't that satisfy any copyright issues?

You're right. This thread is reaching critical length and no one's
said anything yet. The article was the monthly column The Skeptical
Fishkeeper, I think, By Laura Lastname, in the March TFH magazine.
Tynk offered to share the high points with KoiLo, and it's so nice to
see Tynk and KoiLo playing nice and sharing but somehow we got off on
copyright questions and Richard revealed himself as a TFH agent, blew
his cover . . . the White House is launching an investigation. I see
no problem at all with Tynk running through the main points of the
article. Heck, it might even encourage some folks to go out and buy a
TFH. Or subscribe, even. And be the first to read Richard's next
contribution to the venerable piscine publication.

-- Mr Gardener

[Tynk]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2006 08:15:12 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
> >Hi there fishy folks.
> >Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
> >Fish Hobbyist magazine?
> >I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
> >the main points with you if you'd like.
> >This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
> >Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
> >about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
> >you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
> >know for sure?
>
> I read the article and, like so many articles, it didn't fulfil its
> promise of enriching my knowledge. No, that's not entirely true. The
> ariticle did impress that we need to keep the fact that fishes age in
> mind when we've torn out our hair diagnosing an undiagnosable problem.
> And because of the manner in which the fish farming and shipping
> businesses carry out their operations, it is likely that some fish may
> be over a year old by the time they reach the pet shop tanks. I don't
> know why I buy these magazines, for the pictures, maybe. I got the
> March TFH last week and the April issue arrived today. At this rate, I
> expect to see the Christmas 06 issue in a couple of months.
>
> Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
> the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.
>
> -- Mr Gardener

= )~ LOL!!!
You know....as soon as I get the magazine in the mail I quickly flip
through it to see the pictures.
It's funny the things that make people get all excited. Things like a
tropical fish center fold!
WooHoo...imagine of they did that monthly. Boy oh boy!

[Tynk]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article . com>,
> Tynk > wrote:
> >Hi there fishy folks.
> >Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
> >Fish Hobbyist magazine?
> >I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
> >the main points with you if you'd like.
> >This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
> >Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
> >about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
> >you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
> >know for sure?
>
> Yeah, I do.
>
> TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
> partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can post
> the whole thing.
>
> Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
> publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
> need to be small bits of the article.
>
> Failing that,
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

you are always free to summarise the article in your
> own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
> physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.
>
> I thought the article was pretty informative.

Thanks...that's what I thought I could do...explain the gist of it in
my own words. Tanks!

As for informative...I didn't really learn anything, so that's the
reason for my comment.
I really like learning new things and it basically told me what I
already knew and what I have seen with my own eyes over the years.
With the fish that I specialize in (Betta Splendens and Angelfish
[fresh] ), the Bettas show obvious old age symptoms. The Angelfish, not
so much except for a lack of spawning.
I currently have all young ( under a year) Angels, but the last 8 yr
old that I had die on me simply dropped dead. She looked as good as she
did when she was 2.
In my own opinion from what I've seen while keeping Bettas, Angelfish,
Mollies, Neons, Platies, Gouramis, etc...they're all different.
It would be easy if they all went through the same aging process. A
little too easy, so mother nature had to mess with us a bit and mix it
up.

[Mr. Gardener]

On 25 Feb 2006 19:12:51 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:

>
>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On 25 Feb 2006 08:15:12 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:
>>
>> >Hi there fishy folks.
>> >Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>> >Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>> >I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>> >the main points with you if you'd like.
>> >This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>> >Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>> >about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>> >you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>> >know for sure?
>>
>> I read the article and, like so many articles, it didn't fulfil its
>> promise of enriching my knowledge. No, that's not entirely true. The
>> ariticle did impress that we need to keep the fact that fishes age in
>> mind when we've torn out our hair diagnosing an undiagnosable problem.
>> And because of the manner in which the fish farming and shipping
>> businesses carry out their operations, it is likely that some fish may
>> be over a year old by the time they reach the pet shop tanks. I don't
>> know why I buy these magazines, for the pictures, maybe. I got the
>> March TFH last week and the April issue arrived today. At this rate, I
>> expect to see the Christmas 06 issue in a couple of months.
>>
>> Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
>> the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>= )~ LOL!!!
>You know....as soon as I get the magazine in the mail I quickly flip
>through it to see the pictures.
>It's funny the things that make people get all excited. Things like a
>tropical fish center fold!
>WooHoo...imagine of they did that monthly. Boy oh boy!

Yeah - that was new to me - their fish centerfold of the month. But no
staple in the belly. I just finished my first half read - have skim
through the April issue and there are quite a few interesting articles
this month. I think if we keep discussing TFH Magazine here, we will
send more of our members to the TFH web site
http://www.tfhmagazine.com/ where they are offering a free trial
copy. And a good sampling of articles to read on line. I just dropped
them an email with my address, got a reply in a couple of hours, and a
free magazine in the mail a week later. Enclosed with the free issue
was a letter offerring a 12 month subscription for 19.99, which is
nine bucks lower than the best super low offer I've seen to date. It's
a good magazine and it makes a credible effort to offer something for
people at all levels of the hobby. Better than FAMA and AFM, that's
for sure.

You know, I have a fuzzy memory of the Aquaria FAQ many, many years
ago mentioning a discount subscription rate to one of the mags,
available to those who mentioned this newsgroup. Is this just an old
man's foggy memory-dream, or did that really happen?
Old Timers, please check in on this one.

Mr Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On 25 Feb 2006 19:30:02 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:

>
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> Tynk > wrote:
>> >Hi there fishy folks.
>> >Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>> >Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>> >I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>> >the main points with you if you'd like.
>> >This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>> >Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>> >about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>> >you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>> >know for sure?
>>
>> Yeah, I do.
>>
>> TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
>> partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can post
>> the whole thing.
>>
>> Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
>> publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
>> need to be small bits of the article.
>>
>> Failing that,
>>
>> --
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
>
>you are always free to summarise the article in your
>> own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
>> physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.
>>
>> I thought the article was pretty informative.
>
>Thanks...that's what I thought I could do...explain the gist of it in
>my own words. Tanks!
>
>As for informative...I didn't really learn anything, so that's the
>reason for my comment.
>I really like learning new things and it basically told me what I
>already knew and what I have seen with my own eyes over the years.
>With the fish that I specialize in (Betta Splendens and Angelfish
>[fresh] ), the Bettas show obvious old age symptoms. The Angelfish, not
>so much except for a lack of spawning.
>I currently have all young ( under a year) Angels, but the last 8 yr
>old that I had die on me simply dropped dead. She looked as good as she
>did when she was 2.
>In my own opinion from what I've seen while keeping Bettas, Angelfish,
>Mollies, Neons, Platies, Gouramis, etc...they're all different.
>It would be easy if they all went through the same aging process. A
>little too easy, so mother nature had to mess with us a bit and mix it
>up.

But no different that mammals, which we are, in spite of our best
efforts to elevate our status to a group all our own. Dogs, cats,
bears, rabbits, humans . . . all very different life spans. By taking
them in to our protective custody, we've added a couple years to some
of their lives, but relatively few. In spite of our best efforts,
Nature remains bigger than us. To every thing there is a season. Now,
we've had our Sunday School lesson, lets move on.


-- Mr Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2006 19:30:02 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
>
>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>
>>>In article . com>,
>>>Tynk > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi there fishy folks.
>>>>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>>>>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>>>>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>>>>the main points with you if you'd like.
>>>>This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>>>>Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>>>>about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>>>>you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>>>>know for sure?
>>>
>>>Yeah, I do.
>>>
>>>TFH makes you sign a "nonexclusive right to redistribute", that is both
>>>partied can do what they want with it. If Laura says it's ok you can post
>>>the whole thing.
>>>
>>>Otherwise, there is the "fair use doctine" which lets you freely
>>>publish "excerpts for literary review and research purposes". These
>>>need to be small bits of the article.
>>>
>>>Failing that,
>>>
>>>--
>>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>>>Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>>>1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
>>>633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
>>
>>you are always free to summarise the article in your
>>
>>>own words, for copyright is the right to copy any though that takes
>>>physical form, but you cannot coyright the idea itself, or data.
>>>
>>>I thought the article was pretty informative.
>>
>>Thanks...that's what I thought I could do...explain the gist of it in
>>my own words. Tanks!
>>
>>As for informative...I didn't really learn anything, so that's the
>>reason for my comment.
>>I really like learning new things and it basically told me what I
>>already knew and what I have seen with my own eyes over the years.
>>With the fish that I specialize in (Betta Splendens and Angelfish
>>[fresh] ), the Bettas show obvious old age symptoms. The Angelfish, not
>>so much except for a lack of spawning.
>>I currently have all young ( under a year) Angels, but the last 8 yr
>>old that I had die on me simply dropped dead. She looked as good as she
>>did when she was 2.
>>In my own opinion from what I've seen while keeping Bettas, Angelfish,
>>Mollies, Neons, Platies, Gouramis, etc...they're all different.
>>It would be easy if they all went through the same aging process. A
>>little too easy, so mother nature had to mess with us a bit and mix it
>>up.
>
>
> But no different that mammals, which we are, in spite of our best
> efforts to elevate our status to a group all our own. Dogs, cats,
> bears, rabbits, humans . . . all very different life spans. By taking
> them in to our protective custody, we've added a couple years to some
> of their lives, but relatively few. In spite of our best efforts,
> Nature remains bigger than us. To every thing there is a season. Now,
> we've had our Sunday School lesson, lets move on.
>
>
> -- Mr Gardener

My Vet once said to me that the lifespan of certain mammals relates to
the rate of their heartbeat - smaller animals having a faster heart rate
than larger ones. So the life expectancy of a mouse will be shorter than
that of a dog for example..

Now, I would think that this will also relate to fish - larger fish (for
example a Plec) living for longer than say for example a Neon Tetra. I
would also guess temperature will play a factor in the speed of the
metabolism...

FWIW I had a betta that showed distinct signs of looking old before he
died - lack of energy, resting for longer periods etc. This stage did
not last very long - as he had no other signs of disease whatsoever I
put it down to old age. :-(

Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On 25 Feb 2006 19:12:51 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:

>
>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On 25 Feb 2006 08:15:12 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:
>>
>> >Hi there fishy folks.
>> >Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in Tropical
>> >Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>> >I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go over
>> >the main points with you if you'd like.
>> >This is of course if you haven't seen a copy of it yourself yet. ; )
>> >Here or via email, depending on copywrite laws, which I know nothing
>> >about. However, I think if I put their writing in my own words to give
>> >you the gist of what the article was about it would be fine. Anyone
>> >know for sure?
>>
>> I read the article and, like so many articles, it didn't fulfil its
>> promise of enriching my knowledge. No, that's not entirely true. The
>> ariticle did impress that we need to keep the fact that fishes age in
>> mind when we've torn out our hair diagnosing an undiagnosable problem.
>> And because of the manner in which the fish farming and shipping
>> businesses carry out their operations, it is likely that some fish may
>> be over a year old by the time they reach the pet shop tanks. I don't
>> know why I buy these magazines, for the pictures, maybe. I got the
>> March TFH last week and the April issue arrived today. At this rate, I
>> expect to see the Christmas 06 issue in a couple of months.
>>
>> Buying a magazine just for the pictures of fish. That's a far cry from
>> the magazines I bought for the pictures 40 years ago.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
>= )~ LOL!!!
>You know....as soon as I get the magazine in the mail I quickly flip
>through it to see the pictures.
>It's funny the things that make people get all excited. Things like a
>tropical fish center fold!
>WooHoo...imagine of they did that monthly. Boy oh boy!

Lobsters are not off topic, are they? Assuming they're not, you might
be interested in the yearly Maine Bachelor Lobsterman calendar, with a
different elibible lobsterer each month. And for those who go the
other way, there is a companion version, the Maine Lobstering Women
calendar. Either or both guaranteed to spice up your kitchen wall.

-- Mr Gardener

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On 25 Feb 2006 19:30:02 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article . com>,
>>>>Tynk > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hi there fishy folks.
>>>>>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in
>>>>>Tropical
>>>>>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>>>>>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go
>>>>>over
>>>>>the main points with you if you'd like.
<snip>
>>
>>
>> But no different that mammals, which we are, in spite of our best
>> efforts to elevate our status to a group all our own. Dogs, cats,
>> bears, rabbits, humans . . . all very different life spans. By taking
>> them in to our protective custody, we've added a couple years to some
>> of their lives, but relatively few. In spite of our best efforts,
>> Nature remains bigger than us. To every thing there is a season. Now,
>> we've had our Sunday School lesson, lets move on.
>>
>> -- Mr Gardener
>
> My Vet once said to me that the lifespan of certain mammals relates to
> the rate of their heartbeat - smaller animals having a faster heart
> rate than larger ones. So the life expectancy of a mouse will be
> shorter than that of a dog for example..
>
> Now, I would think that this will also relate to fish - larger fish
> (for example a Plec) living for longer than say for example a Neon
> Tetra. I would also guess temperature will play a factor in the speed
> of the metabolism...
>
> FWIW I had a betta that showed distinct signs of looking old before he
> died - lack of energy, resting for longer periods etc. This stage did
> not last very long - as he had no other signs of disease whatsoever I
> put it down to old age. :-(
>
> Gill

Where is the defining line? Obviously most things don't die from 'old
age' (elapsed time), but rather from disease (or mechanical stress).
Even multiple organ shutdown can be traced down to some disease, or
damage/malfunction of the organism to repair itself (traceable again to
disease/ailment).

When a fish is old, the death is old age (?) whether it is a primary
contagion (ie: obvious external bacterial infection), or a secondary
cause (ie: degradation of an organ due to suppressed immune system caused
by a bacterial infection).

I don't know - but things don't die from old age, they die from diseases
associated with old age, right?
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:29:05 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>> On 25 Feb 2006 19:30:02 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article . com>,
>>>>>Tynk > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi there fishy folks.
>>>>>>Who was it that mentioned wanting to read about fish aging in
>>>>>>Tropical
>>>>>>Fish Hobbyist magazine?
>>>>>>I have it right here and I wasn't overly impressed, but I can go
>>>>>>over
>>>>>>the main points with you if you'd like.
><snip>
>>>
>>>
>>> But no different that mammals, which we are, in spite of our best
>>> efforts to elevate our status to a group all our own. Dogs, cats,
>>> bears, rabbits, humans . . . all very different life spans. By taking
>>> them in to our protective custody, we've added a couple years to some
>>> of their lives, but relatively few. In spite of our best efforts,
>>> Nature remains bigger than us. To every thing there is a season. Now,
>>> we've had our Sunday School lesson, lets move on.
>>>
>>> -- Mr Gardener
>>
>> My Vet once said to me that the lifespan of certain mammals relates to
>> the rate of their heartbeat - smaller animals having a faster heart
>> rate than larger ones. So the life expectancy of a mouse will be
>> shorter than that of a dog for example..
>>
>> Now, I would think that this will also relate to fish - larger fish
>> (for example a Plec) living for longer than say for example a Neon
>> Tetra. I would also guess temperature will play a factor in the speed
>> of the metabolism...
>>
>> FWIW I had a betta that showed distinct signs of looking old before he
>> died - lack of energy, resting for longer periods etc. This stage did
>> not last very long - as he had no other signs of disease whatsoever I
>> put it down to old age. :-(
>>
>> Gill
>
>Where is the defining line? Obviously most things don't die from 'old
>age' (elapsed time), but rather from disease (or mechanical stress).
>Even multiple organ shutdown can be traced down to some disease, or
>damage/malfunction of the organism to repair itself (traceable again to
>disease/ailment).
>
>When a fish is old, the death is old age (?) whether it is a primary
>contagion (ie: obvious external bacterial infection), or a secondary
>cause (ie: degradation of an organ due to suppressed immune system caused
>by a bacterial infection).
>
>I don't know - but things don't die from old age, they die from diseases
>associated with old age, right?

Right. Just like humans. Where is the defining line? I don't think
there is full agreement on that question, regarding fish or humans.
As electrolytes go wacko, which they eventually do for all of us, as
the organs begin to shut down, there are interventions possible to
prolong the living or the dying. How far do we go to preserve life,
how do we know when to let it go. That's a question that many of us
won't be able to answer until we or a loved one is at that defining
line. Depending on how a person feels about her fish, she too will
make those decisions as she comes to them. Informing ourselves of the
"normal" life cycle and health stages of our fish can help us make a
more intelligent decision.

I thought Sunday School was over for the day.

-- Mr Gardener

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Tynk > wrote:
>You know....as soon as I get the magazine in the mail I quickly flip
>through it to see the pictures.
>It's funny the things that make people get all excited. Things like a
>tropical fish center fold!
>WooHoo...imagine of they did that monthly. Boy oh boy!

They do have a full page color picture "suitable for framing"
in every issue now.



--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Mr. Gardener]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:37:29 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article . com>,
>Tynk > wrote:
>>You know....as soon as I get the magazine in the mail I quickly flip
>>through it to see the pictures.
>>It's funny the things that make people get all excited. Things like a
>>tropical fish center fold!
>>WooHoo...imagine of they did that monthly. Boy oh boy!
>
>They do have a full page color picture "suitable for framing"
>in every issue now.

Yeah. And no staple in the belly. Or in the whatever.

-- Mr Gardener

[IDzine01]

I was really pleased to see someone print what I had already been
observing. I have had old fish but I have one in particular that has a
lot old age "symptoms" and I don't have any other hobbyists near by to
show it too. It's really interesting. He is a male betta and his color
has gone from a brilliant green, blue and red to a murky brownish/red
color. His fins are permanently tattered, he's sluggish compared to the
good ol' days and he's lost weight and almost appears bony. He
developed what appears to be cataracts about a year and a half ago and
I've noticed it progress and affect how quickly he can catch his food.
These are all things that developed over time and haven't been fixable.
(Though he has spurts where his fins grow back a little) One day about
10 - 12 months ago I realized he had the symptoms of an old fish. Most
of these were touched upon in the article and as I sat reading it I was
like, "YES! I noticed that too!!!"

I was happy with the validation.

[Mr. Gardener]

On 27 Feb 2006 16:30:41 -0800, "IDzine01" >
wrote:

>I was really pleased to see someone print what I had already been
>observing. I have had old fish but I have one in particular that has a
>lot old age "symptoms" and I don't have any other hobbyists near by to
>show it too. It's really interesting. He is a male betta and his color
>has gone from a brilliant green, blue and red to a murky brownish/red
>color. His fins are permanently tattered, he's sluggish compared to the
>good ol' days and he's lost weight and almost appears bony. He
>developed what appears to be cataracts about a year and a half ago and
>I've noticed it progress and affect how quickly he can catch his food.
>These are all things that developed over time and haven't been fixable.
>(Though he has spurts where his fins grow back a little) One day about
>10 - 12 months ago I realized he had the symptoms of an old fish. Most
>of these were touched upon in the article and as I sat reading it I was
>like, "YES! I noticed that too!!!"
>
>I was happy with the validation.

Then the article was worth the price of the magazine. That's a good
feeling, eh? I'm beginning to look forward to The Skeptical Aquarist.
The writer has an appealing way of looking at a common occurence from
a slightly different viewpoint. There is a web site called The
Skeptical Aquarist - I haven't dug deep enough to learn whether it is
connected to the TFH columnist or not. Anyone know? (This is your cue,
Richard.)

-- Mr Gardener

[Richard Sexton]

>Then the article was worth the price of the magazine. That's a good
>feeling, eh? I'm beginning to look forward to The Skeptical Aquarist.
>The writer has an appealing way of looking at a common occurence from
>a slightly different viewpoint. There is a web site called The
>Skeptical Aquarist - I haven't dug deep enough to learn whether it is
>connected to the TFH columnist or not. Anyone know? (This is your cue,
>Richard.)

I don't think it's any relation but I really am not sure.

Laura's skeptical column and Wayne Leibel's biotope stuff
are for me the best parts of the magazine.

Laurs is the one that wrote up the "100% water change cures
ick" a few months back, too.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Tynk]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> >Then the article was worth the price of the magazine. That's a good
> >feeling, eh? I'm beginning to look forward to The Skeptical Aquarist.
> >The writer has an appealing way of looking at a common occurence from
> >a slightly different viewpoint. There is a web site called The
> >Skeptical Aquarist - I haven't dug deep enough to learn whether it is
> >connected to the TFH columnist or not. Anyone know? (This is your cue,
> >Richard.)
>
> I don't think it's any relation but I really am not sure.
>
> Laura's skeptical column and Wayne Leibel's biotope stuff
> are for me the best parts of the magazine.
>
> Laurs is the one that wrote up the "100% water change cures
> ick" a few months back, too.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
Just to summarize the article in TFH's March 06 issue, by Ms Laura
Muha, on fish aging:

The author questioned do fish slow down like many people do as they age
and if they to become more susceptible to disease later in their lives
like humans do.
She questioned what's a normal lifespan for a fish. Did living in the
wild, or being in a tank make a difference?
Why some live longer and is it all in their genes, etc.
Many questions like these and others are asked of scientists and after
spending millions of dollars researching, still haven't really come up
with any difinative answers yet.
2 of them said basically the same thing...that they would *guess*
geriatric fish would probably succumb to the same problems we have like
slower metabolism, arthritis, susceptible to diseases, but both said
that they didn't have any real experience with geriatric fish and both
agreed that most fish die from husbandry issues.

Life expectancy differences between fishes of the same species can't
always be explained either. Many variables play in a fish's life
expentancy.

Things like how Cardinal Tetras are annual fish in the wild. They live
out their lives in a year.
They live a year, breed and die like Salmon do.
That even if they did live a little longer in the wild than a year,
that they do not spawn.
However, Cardinals that are in out tanks have a usual lifespan of 5-6
yrs and do still spawn.

Obvious factors such as the age of the fish when it was purchased,
normal life span for that spcies, husbandry, health, etc., all have to
be taken into consideration when *guessing* a fish's age.

Certain species have a *tell* at certain ages. Things like how some
Cichlids will grow a big forehead, or some fish turn a different color
at a certain age, some have fin variations, etc..all are *tells*.
However, you have to be lucky enough to get said fish before this
happens...then you'd be able to have a good guess.
If you're not lucky enough and they already have these factors, size
can sometimes be an indicator, but it's not a reliable way of aging
fish. I agree!

That a more reliable way to age a fish is by looking at one of it''s
scales under a microscope. Their scales have growth rings. Ok...well
this I didn't, so I guess I have to take back my comment when I said I
didn't learn anything.
But I've been a little short on the lab equipment lately, so well you
know....
Also, the most realiable way is after the fish's death to examine the
"Otoliths", which are small structures found in the head (except
sharks, rays and lampreys). They provide info that is the equivalent of
a flight data recorder of an airplane.
It provides info on the fish's growth rate to it's migration pattern to
the temp and water perameters it lived in. Ok..that's really cool, but
lets face it...this is only good for the folks in the white lab coats
and not for general hobbyists. It is very interesting knowledge to have
though. For the general hobbyist our best bet is a good guess. However,
there are certain factors we need to consider that differs with each
species, along with all the other general factors that come into play.
All in all I think it's the fish breeders who have the best opinions of
old symptoms per species.
They see them from hatching until their end of their natural lives...in
captivity that is.
Remember......there are two sets of standerds....life expentancy for
wild specimens and for those that live in our tanks.

For those that read the article...if I missed anything good.....get
typing! = )~