Dual sumps

[PaulB]

I am planning the plumbing for an AGA 180 and I realized that the plumbing
would be much simpler if I had two smaller sumps, one under each overflow.
The problem is equalizing water height between the sumps. I was thinking of
simply running some PVC pipe along the back of the cabinet between bulkheads
in the sump.

Has anyone tried this, and do you think 1" PVC would be adequate? Would
flex PVC or hose be better? If one pump failed there would be flow of about
300 GPH between the sumps.

[Marc Levenson]

As long as you have bulkheads linking the two together, the water level would be
fine. 1" should work, but 1.5" would be even better.

I'd suggest only one return pump, rather than two. Two adds more heat to the
water.

Marc


PaulB wrote:

> I am planning the plumbing for an AGA 180 and I realized that the plumbing
> would be much simpler if I had two smaller sumps, one under each overflow.
> The problem is equalizing water height between the sumps. I was thinking of
> simply running some PVC pipe along the back of the cabinet between bulkheads
> in the sump.
>
> Has anyone tried this, and do you think 1" PVC would be adequate? Would
> flex PVC or hose be better? If one pump failed there would be flow of about
> 300 GPH between the sumps.

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Rod]

I used to have 2 sumps chained together (on th esame level), but I only used 1
pump although using 2 is a better idea (if one fails the other is still
pumping). I wanted all of my water to pass through the first sump then to th
esecond via a 2" pipe. A 2" pipe was not big enough, I had to divert some of
the water coming from the main tank into the second sump. if you aere using 2
300 gph pumps with one in each sump, you _might be OK with 1", but as Mark said
1.5 would be better.

[PaulB]

I will be using 2 600 gph pumps. I figure on 300 GPH between sumps because
if one pump is off, half the water flow will continue to come down each
overflow. I am planning on having the sumps about 3' apart.

How much flow did you have going through the 2" pipe?

"Rod" > wrote in message
...
> I used to have 2 sumps chained together (on th esame level), but I only
used 1
> pump although using 2 is a better idea (if one fails the other is still
> pumping). I wanted all of my water to pass through the first sump then to
th
> esecond via a 2" pipe. A 2" pipe was not big enough, I had to divert some
of
> the water coming from the main tank into the second sump. if you aere
using 2
> 300 gph pumps with one in each sump, you _might be OK with 1", but as Mark
said
> 1.5 would be better.
>

[Marc Levenson]

If you have two 600gph pumps, total flow is 1200gph at zero head pressure. If
one pump fails, you'll still be moving 600gph, not 300gph.

Will your tank drain 1200gph?

Marc


PaulB wrote:

> I will be using 2 600 gph pumps. I figure on 300 GPH between sumps because
> if one pump is off, half the water flow will continue to come down each
> overflow. I am planning on having the sumps about 3' apart.
>
> How much flow did you have going through the 2" pipe?
>
> "Rod" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I used to have 2 sumps chained together (on th esame level), but I only
> used 1
> > pump although using 2 is a better idea (if one fails the other is still
> > pumping). I wanted all of my water to pass through the first sump then to
> th
> > esecond via a 2" pipe. A 2" pipe was not big enough, I had to divert some
> of
> > the water coming from the main tank into the second sump. if you aere
> using 2
> > 300 gph pumps with one in each sump, you _might be OK with 1", but as Mark
> said
> > 1.5 would be better.
> >

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[PaulB]

I am planning on using external pumps so I hope that this will solve the
heat problem. Specifically two Quiet One Mod. 4000s.
In fact, I am hoping to avoid any submerged motors at all.

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> As long as you have bulkheads linking the two together, the water level
would be
> fine. 1" should work, but 1.5" would be even better.
>
> I'd suggest only one return pump, rather than two. Two adds more heat to
the
> water.
>
> Marc
>
>
> PaulB wrote:
>
> > I am planning the plumbing for an AGA 180 and I realized that the
plumbing
> > would be much simpler if I had two smaller sumps, one under each
overflow.
> > The problem is equalizing water height between the sumps. I was
thinking of
> > simply running some PVC pipe along the back of the cabinet between
bulkheads
> > in the sump.
> >
> > Has anyone tried this, and do you think 1" PVC would be adequate? Would
> > flex PVC or hose be better? If one pump failed there would be flow of
about
> > 300 GPH between the sumps.
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>
>

[PaulB]

The overflows are rated at 600 gph each. With 2 600 gph pumps, I am
assuming that with one pump off, there will be 600 gph total flow, 300 gph
through each overflow leaving 300 to travel through the pipe connecting the
two sumps.

The pumps are rated at 600 gph @ 6' head.



"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> If you have two 600gph pumps, total flow is 1200gph at zero head pressure.
If
> one pump fails, you'll still be moving 600gph, not 300gph.
>
> Will your tank drain 1200gph?
>
> Marc
>
>
> PaulB wrote:
>
> > I will be using 2 600 gph pumps. I figure on 300 GPH between sumps
because
> > if one pump is off, half the water flow will continue to come down each
> > overflow. I am planning on having the sumps about 3' apart.
> >
> > How much flow did you have going through the 2" pipe?
> >
> > "Rod" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I used to have 2 sumps chained together (on th esame level), but I
only
> > used 1
> > > pump although using 2 is a better idea (if one fails the other is
still
> > > pumping). I wanted all of my water to pass through the first sump
then to
> > th
> > > esecond via a 2" pipe. A 2" pipe was not big enough, I had to divert
some
> > of
> > > the water coming from the main tank into the second sump. if you aere
> > using 2
> > > 300 gph pumps with one in each sump, you _might be OK with 1", but as
Mark
> > said
> > > 1.5 would be better.
> > >
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>
>

[Henry Etteldorf]

"PaulB" > wrote in message
m...
> The overflows are rated at 600 gph each. With 2 600 gph pumps, I am
> assuming that with one pump off, there will be 600 gph total flow, 300 gph
> through each overflow leaving 300 to travel through the pipe connecting
the
> two sumps.
>
> The pumps are rated at 600 gph @ 6' head.
>
You are right in thinking you will only pump what you get via the overflows,
with the momemtary exception of what it in the sump.

What happens when a pump stops.
Overflows reduce flow from 1200 gpm to 600 gpm, but not instantaneously.
You can visualize this as the level in tank will go down slightly and there
will be less water in the overflow plumbing at any instant in time. This
will cause an increase in the water in the sump. (Is the sump big enough?
If it doesn't overflow with both pumps off this is not a concern.)

What happens when one of the overflows plugs.
Sump #1 fill from 600 gpm overflow and pumps 600 gpm. Sump #2 doesn't
fill from overflow and pumps whatever is coming through connecting pipe for
the sumps. You will get 1200 gpm from the two pumps momentarily (possibly
overflowing the tank). Then you may get both pumps cavitating, causing
bubbles and heat.

Just my thoughts. I may be wrong. You should test yourself.

Henry

[CapFusion]

"Henry Etteldorf" > wrote in message
. ..
>

> You are right in thinking you will only pump what you get via the
overflows,
> with the momemtary exception of what it in the sump.
>
> What happens when a pump stops.
> Overflows reduce flow from 1200 gpm to 600 gpm, but not instantaneously.
> You can visualize this as the level in tank will go down slightly and
there
> will be less water in the overflow plumbing at any instant in time. This
> will cause an increase in the water in the sump. (Is the sump big enough?
> If it doesn't overflow with both pumps off this is not a concern.)


That really depend on the level on the overflow.
Depending on which or both pump stop.

Since there are two sump with pump, this make it very tricky and
complicated. [This kind of method I strongely NOT RECOMMENDED].



> What happens when one of the overflows plugs.
> Sump #1 fill from 600 gpm overflow and pumps 600 gpm. Sump #2 doesn't
> fill from overflow and pumps whatever is coming through connecting pipe
for
> the sumps. You will get 1200 gpm from the two pumps momentarily
(possibly
> overflowing the tank). Then you may get both pumps cavitating, causing
> bubbles and heat.


Sump #1 working = Water will return to the main tank and maintain the water
level of the overflow. From overflow where two pipe is split. Both pipe will
still get water to distination sump #1 and #2. But sump #1 return water back
to tank but not sump #2. Water level still maintain and continue the same
cycle until sump #1 no longer have water to return and water level from the
main tank no longer can overflow to the filter.

Note - where all the water go? All water goto sump #2. Reason, pump from the
sump #2 did not return any water that feed through the pipe.

Eventhough the sump #2 pump stop, there no prevention method or safe guard
from water keep on coming / feeding to any sump.
***[Please note, according previous thread, there no indication of safe
guard or prevention mention. ... like shutoff valve or floating valve etc to
prevent water from coming into sump.]***

2nd note -
Best is to have one sump to hold any water that the main tank provide
according to water level is set from the overflow box. The water level is
set from the overflow water level.

CapFusion,...

[PaulB]

Actually, I was planning to have a pipe connecting the two sumps, which
should make them effectively one sump. My problem is figuring out how large
the connecting pipe needs to be. If one pump fails I have 300 GPH coming
down each overflow, so I need 300 gph flow through a horizontal pipe, with
only the pressure of differing water levels to push it through the pipe.

Using two connected sumps will simplify the plumbing and keep the sumps
small enough that they can be removed through the stand doors.




"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Henry Etteldorf" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
>
> > You are right in thinking you will only pump what you get via the
> overflows,
> > with the momemtary exception of what it in the sump.
> >
> > What happens when a pump stops.
> > Overflows reduce flow from 1200 gpm to 600 gpm, but not instantaneously.
> > You can visualize this as the level in tank will go down slightly and
> there
> > will be less water in the overflow plumbing at any instant in time.
This
> > will cause an increase in the water in the sump. (Is the sump big
enough?
> > If it doesn't overflow with both pumps off this is not a concern.)
>
>
> That really depend on the level on the overflow.
> Depending on which or both pump stop.
>
> Since there are two sump with pump, this make it very tricky and
> complicated. [This kind of method I strongely NOT RECOMMENDED].
>
>
>
> > What happens when one of the overflows plugs.
> > Sump #1 fill from 600 gpm overflow and pumps 600 gpm. Sump #2 doesn't
> > fill from overflow and pumps whatever is coming through connecting pipe
> for
> > the sumps. You will get 1200 gpm from the two pumps momentarily
> (possibly
> > overflowing the tank). Then you may get both pumps cavitating, causing
> > bubbles and heat.
>
>
> Sump #1 working = Water will return to the main tank and maintain the
water
> level of the overflow. From overflow where two pipe is split. Both pipe
will
> still get water to distination sump #1 and #2. But sump #1 return water
back
> to tank but not sump #2. Water level still maintain and continue the same
> cycle until sump #1 no longer have water to return and water level from
the
> main tank no longer can overflow to the filter.
>
> Note - where all the water go? All water goto sump #2. Reason, pump from
the
> sump #2 did not return any water that feed through the pipe.
>
> Eventhough the sump #2 pump stop, there no prevention method or safe guard
> from water keep on coming / feeding to any sump.
> ***[Please note, according previous thread, there no indication of safe
> guard or prevention mention. ... like shutoff valve or floating valve etc
to
> prevent water from coming into sump.]***
>
> 2nd note -
> Best is to have one sump to hold any water that the main tank provide
> according to water level is set from the overflow box. The water level is
> set from the overflow water level.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

1" would do it easily. Larger if you want to.

Marc


PaulB wrote:

> Actually, I was planning to have a pipe connecting the two sumps, which
> should make them effectively one sump. My problem is figuring out how large
> the connecting pipe needs to be. If one pump fails I have 300 GPH coming
> down each overflow, so I need 300 gph flow through a horizontal pipe, with
> only the pressure of differing water levels to push it through the pipe.
>
> Using two connected sumps will simplify the plumbing and keep the sumps
> small enough that they can be removed through the stand doors.
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[CapFusion]

"PaulB" > wrote in message
m...
> Actually, I was planning to have a pipe connecting the two sumps, which
> should make them effectively one sump. My problem is figuring out how
large
> the connecting pipe needs to be. If one pump fails I have 300 GPH coming
> down each overflow, so I need 300 gph flow through a horizontal pipe, with
> only the pressure of differing water levels to push it through the pipe.
>
> Using two connected sumps will simplify the plumbing and keep the sumps
> small enough that they can be removed through the stand doors.
>
>
Humm... ok. Connecting two sump with a pip should be fine. It is better then
two separate sump. The size of return pipe, my guess would be [maybe] 1" or
so. Maybe Marc can give better size recommendation since he much better
knowledge in this area.

CapFusion,...

[PaulB]

Sounds good. I will go ahead with it.

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> 1" would do it easily. Larger if you want to.
>
> Marc
>
>
> PaulB wrote:
>
> > Actually, I was planning to have a pipe connecting the two sumps, which
> > should make them effectively one sump. My problem is figuring out how
large
> > the connecting pipe needs to be. If one pump fails I have 300 GPH
coming
> > down each overflow, so I need 300 gph flow through a horizontal pipe,
with
> > only the pressure of differing water levels to push it through the pipe.
> >
> > Using two connected sumps will simplify the plumbing and keep the sumps
> > small enough that they can be removed through the stand doors.
> >
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>
>

[Simon O'Keeffe]

use at least a 2 inch pipe.
It won't cost much extra and can cope with 4 times the flow of a 1 inch
pipe.
An over flow box might be an option also these will work the same in
both directions but with sump levels being dynamic it might be too risky
for your purpose.

Simon


PaulB wrote:

>Sounds good. I will go ahead with it.
>
>"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>1" would do it easily. Larger if you want to.
>>
>>Marc
>>
>>
>>PaulB wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Actually, I was planning to have a pipe connecting the two sumps, which
>>>should make them effectively one sump. My problem is figuring out how
>>>
>>>
>large
>
>
>>>the connecting pipe needs to be. If one pump fails I have 300 GPH
>>>
>>>
>coming
>
>
>>>down each overflow, so I need 300 gph flow through a horizontal pipe,
>>>
>>>
>with
>
>
>>>only the pressure of differing water levels to push it through the pipe.
>>>
>>>Using two connected sumps will simplify the plumbing and keep the sumps
>>>small enough that they can be removed through the stand doors.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
>>Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
>>Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[bruce]

Look for the book Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They Function
by Pedro Ramon Escobal (also the software.) If goes into great detail on how
to calculate how much flow you can get under what conditions hooked up with
which fittings. GREAT SOURCE for this type of info. Unfort, my book is on
loan :.(

You might be able to find a link that has some of the calculations on the
web.
This is pretty technical.

Bruce


"PaulB" > wrote in message
om...
> I am planning on using external pumps so I hope that this will solve the
> heat problem. Specifically two Quiet One Mod. 4000s.
> In fact, I am hoping to avoid any submerged motors at all.
>
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > As long as you have bulkheads linking the two together, the water level
> would be
> > fine. 1" should work, but 1.5" would be even better.
> >
> > I'd suggest only one return pump, rather than two. Two adds more heat
to
> the
> > water.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> > PaulB wrote:
> >
> > > I am planning the plumbing for an AGA 180 and I realized that the
> plumbing
> > > would be much simpler if I had two smaller sumps, one under each
> overflow.
> > > The problem is equalizing water height between the sumps. I was
> thinking of
> > > simply running some PVC pipe along the back of the cabinet between
> bulkheads
> > > in the sump.
> > >
> > > Has anyone tried this, and do you think 1" PVC would be adequate?
Would
> > > flex PVC or hose be better? If one pump failed there would be flow of
> about
> > > 300 GPH between the sumps.
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[PaulB]

I will look into it. It sounds like what I need.

"bruce" > wrote in message
news:eHEoc.80760$kh4.4801694@attbi_s52...
> Look for the book Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They
Function
> by Pedro Ramon Escobal (also the software.) If goes into great detail on
how
> to calculate how much flow you can get under what conditions hooked up
with
> which fittings. GREAT SOURCE for this type of info. Unfort, my book is on
> loan :.(
>
> You might be able to find a link that has some of the calculations on the
> web.
> This is pretty technical.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> "PaulB" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I am planning on using external pumps so I hope that this will solve the
> > heat problem. Specifically two Quiet One Mod. 4000s.
> > In fact, I am hoping to avoid any submerged motors at all.
> >
> > "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > As long as you have bulkheads linking the two together, the water
level
> > would be
> > > fine. 1" should work, but 1.5" would be even better.
> > >
> > > I'd suggest only one return pump, rather than two. Two adds more heat
> to
> > the
> > > water.
> > >
> > > Marc
> > >
> > >
> > > PaulB wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am planning the plumbing for an AGA 180 and I realized that the
> > plumbing
> > > > would be much simpler if I had two smaller sumps, one under each
> > overflow.
> > > > The problem is equalizing water height between the sumps. I was
> > thinking of
> > > > simply running some PVC pipe along the back of the cabinet between
> > bulkheads
> > > > in the sump.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone tried this, and do you think 1" PVC would be adequate?
> Would
> > > > flex PVC or hose be better? If one pump failed there would be flow
of
> > about
> > > > 300 GPH between the sumps.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>