Wet/Dry advice needed

[David]

How D,

I have a 75 gal. With about 50+lbs live rock, Plenum, and about 75lbs of
live sand. I have a Red Sea Prizm Protein Skimmer and a wet/dry filter.
My levels seem to be fine but skunk cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs keep
dying. Snails, soft corrals, and fish are fine. The wet/dry is empty
and it used mostly for aeration and water movement. This tank has been
up for about 7 mos.
My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?

[Steve Sells]

forget the blue balls. or any other color

what is your water? copper will kill inverts, many other nasty's are in our
tap water. give us some info and maybe we can offer advice...

Steve

"David" > wrote in message
...
> How D,
>
> I have a 75 gal. With about 50+lbs live rock, Plenum, and about 75lbs of
> live sand. I have a Red Sea Prizm Protein Skimmer and a wet/dry filter.
> My levels seem to be fine but skunk cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs keep
> dying. Snails, soft corrals, and fish are fine. The wet/dry is empty
> and it used mostly for aeration and water movement. This tank has been
> up for about 7 mos.
> My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
> something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?

[Dinky]

"David" > wrote in message
...

| My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or
use
| something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my
problem?

I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the
nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more
sensitive to nitrates than fw fish.

[Marc Levenson]

Actually, fish tolerate high nitrates, but invertebrates won't.

Marc


Dinky wrote:

> I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the
> nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more
> sensitive to nitrates than fw fish.

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Richard Reynolds]

> Actually, fish tolerate high nitrates, but invertebrates won't.

to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most any FW fish

--
Richard Reynolds

[Richard Reynolds]

> My levels seem to be fine
so what are they ???

--
Richard Reynolds

[Fred Fisher]

Marc Levenson > wrote in message >...
> Actually, fish tolerate high nitrates, but invertebrates won't.
>
> Marc
>
>
> Dinky wrote:
>
> > I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the
> > nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more
> > sensitive to nitrates than fw fish.


I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no
bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a
refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like
crazy!!

[Dinky]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:BqCqc.26645$Md.17533@lakeread05...

|
| to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most
any FW fish
|


That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research
pages....

[Marc Levenson]

I inherited a tank with nitrates above 200ppm, and the tangs and blue angel were
quite active and unaffected. The coral beauty looked bad though.

However, corals and various crawling livestock, as well as anemones, would
suffer and die premature deaths.

Marc


Dinky wrote:

> "Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
> news:BqCqc.26645$Md.17533@lakeread05...
>
> |
> | to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most
> any FW fish
> |
>
> That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research
> pages....

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Marc Levenson]

Perfect!

Marc


Fred Fisher wrote:

> I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no
> bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a
> refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like
> crazy!!

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[CapFusion]

"Dinky" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the
> nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more
> sensitive to nitrates than fw fish.
>

W/D filter produce nitrate [very effecient]. Marine fish can tolerate some
high nitrate but will not kill immediate, though. But invert can be deadly.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Dinky" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>

> |
> | to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most
> any FW fish
> |
>
>
> That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research
> pages....
>

BTW, where did you learn or get those info.? I just curious, Dinky.
Some fish will tolerate more than other.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Fred Fisher" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no
> bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a
> refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like
> crazy!!

Very good setup.
Me, too. I have the same method.

CapFusion,...

[Richard Reynolds]

> That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research
> pages....

like everything there are always exceptions

the big one I know about are sharks and rays but even then 100ppm isnt a big deal
considering thats probibly the most extreme case and the comparison was made against FW
there are some FW fish that wont tolerate nitrates in the 50's

without doing all your research for you, some larger fish(think tuna) have stunted growth
due to nitrates most smaller fish will be un-effected by nitrate levels well above 1500ppm
there are a few inverts which will handle nitrates that high, but most significant
intentionally kept ones wont, two that come to mind *very* quickly are brine shrimp,
however they also tolerate about 100ppm ammonia and choc chip stars seem uneffected by
400ppm+ but probibly require *very slow aclimation* I have 20ish(number decreases every 2
weeks as they are feeders) in a 15gallon pond thing, they were added when nitrates were
very low, and lack of waterchanges and constant feeding has got nitrates above 400 they
all are active and growing, ready to become food, starfish vs. nitrates is well documented
you can look around(search for the smaller brittle stars). there are even some anemone's
that will handle high nitrates but again not desired ones (think aptasia)

--
Richard Reynolds

[Fred Fisher]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message news:<urCqc.26654$Md.10193@lakeread05>...
> > My levels seem to be fine
> so what are they ???

A refugium, at least the way I have it, is another tank that sits in
the stand next to my wet dry filter. Basically, it holds my caulerpa
and sand/mud. This is good for nutrient export which keeps my nitrates
down. Other people might use it as this AND keeping little critters in
there as well. On a different message board, I've seen lots of people
keeping mantis shrimp in there. It all depends on how you want to use
it. Mine is just sand and the caulerpa, as far as I know :) You can
also use Rubbermaid bins as refugiums as well, TONS of people use
this. I just happened to use a tank because it was laying around. HTH

[Dinky]

"CapFusion" <CapeFussion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message
...
|
| "Dinky" > wrote in message
| nk.net...

| >
| >
| > That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research
| > pages....
| >
|
| BTW, where did you learn or get those info.? I just curious, Dinky.
| Some fish will tolerate more than other.


Here, mostly. It's possible I've been misunderstanding pretty much
everything since the git-go...I'll go crawl into a corner with some
docs and shut up......

[Richard Reynolds]

> Here, mostly. It's possible I've been misunderstanding pretty much
> everything since the git-go...I'll go crawl into a corner with some
> docs and shut up......

ive been kinda on lurk mode for a while, too busy breeding fish. But ive been reading
almost every post, that gets to my server. I would hope that if someone had said nitrates
were bad for *FISH* ida hoped in on that. however just because fish are ok with nitrates
does not mean a reef tank is ok with nitrates, its also possible to have a FO with to high
a nitrate level and not have it harmful for the fish. most people dont want an algae
infested cess pool for a tank just because it wont hurt the fish, even as much as an algae
infested cess pool can be benifitial to fish, most people still dont want one. nitrates
are the fastest algae/cyno fuel to remove, and the easiest to control and measure.

--
Richard Reynolds

[David]

Steve Sells wrote:
> forget the blue balls. or any other color
>
> what is your water? copper will kill inverts, many other nasty's are in our
> tap water. give us some info and maybe we can offer advice...
>
> Steve
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>How D,
>>
>>I have a 75 gal. With about 50+lbs live rock, Plenum, and about 75lbs of
>>live sand. I have a Red Sea Prizm Protein Skimmer and a wet/dry filter.
>>My levels seem to be fine but skunk cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs keep
>>dying. Snails, soft corrals, and fish are fine. The wet/dry is empty
>>and it used mostly for aeration and water movement. This tank has been
>>up for about 7 mos.
>>My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
>>something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?
>
>
>
I had the water (from the tank) tested for copper and that ain't it.

[CheezWiz]

David,

Before the folks in this group will try to help you, you need to show that
you have the initiative to care for a tank. If you are experiencing a
dye-off, then everyone would assume that you have done a round of water
tests. They want the readings. What's the temp, specific G, where does your
top-off water come from.. etc... No one will reply to "My water is good..."

CW
"David" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Sells wrote:
> > forget the blue balls. or any other color
> >
> > what is your water? copper will kill inverts, many other nasty's are in
our
> > tap water. give us some info and maybe we can offer advice...
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > "David" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>How D,
> >>
> >>I have a 75 gal. With about 50+lbs live rock, Plenum, and about 75lbs of
> >>live sand. I have a Red Sea Prizm Protein Skimmer and a wet/dry filter.
> >>My levels seem to be fine but skunk cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs keep
> >>dying. Snails, soft corrals, and fish are fine. The wet/dry is empty
> >>and it used mostly for aeration and water movement. This tank has been
> >>up for about 7 mos.
> >>My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
> >>something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?
> >
> >
> >
> I had the water (from the tank) tested for copper and that ain't it.

[CapFusion]

"Dinky" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Here, mostly. It's possible I've been misunderstanding pretty much
> everything since the git-go...I'll go crawl into a corner with some
> docs and shut up......
>

Heehe....
First and foremost.... Nitrate is BAD. No doubt about that.
If the tank are mainly have fish, minium or low nitrate can be telorable.
But do expect algae growth. Nitrate is one of the basic food source for
algae.

If you have invert or anmone, you might need to fix your nitrate proble from
it source.


CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:weUqc.31666$Md.30532@lakeread05...
> ive been kinda on lurk mode for a while, too busy breeding fish. But ive
been reading
> almost every post, that gets to my server. I would hope that if someone
had said nitrates
> were bad for *FISH* ida hoped in on that. however just because fish are
ok with nitrates
> does not mean a reef tank is ok with nitrates, its also possible to have a
FO with to high
> a nitrate level and not have it harmful for the fish. most people dont
want an algae
> infested cess pool for a tank just because it wont hurt the fish, even as
much as an algae
> infested cess pool can be benifitial to fish, most people still dont want
one. nitrates
> are the fastest algae/cyno fuel to remove, and the easiest to control and
measure.
>

If you want *me* to say it.... I will say it. Nitrate is bad for fish. Are
you happy now, Richard? Fish can telorate nitrate [high/medium/low] and seem
to be active, but it not really good. It just like breathing in second-hand
smoke or living in a smog city. If the fish immune system can handle it, it
just fine but if not, the fish will somewhat moving about. Probably a sign
of stress.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Fred Fisher" > wrote in message
m...
> "Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:<urCqc.26654$Md.10193@lakeread05>...
> > > My levels seem to be fine
> > so what are they ???
>
> A refugium, at least the way I have it, is another tank that sits in
> the stand next to my wet dry filter. Basically, it holds my caulerpa
> and sand/mud. This is good for nutrient export which keeps my nitrates
> down. Other people might use it as this AND keeping little critters in
> there as well. On a different message board, I've seen lots of people
> keeping mantis shrimp in there. It all depends on how you want to use
> it. Mine is just sand and the caulerpa, as far as I know :) You can
> also use Rubbermaid bins as refugiums as well, TONS of people use
> this. I just happened to use a tank because it was laying around. HTH

That is fine.
I keep all my trouble maker in there too. Maybe I should call it a prison
tank instead.

CapFusion,...

[Steve Sells]

Example of my last test, measured after I topped off with 1 liter R.O. to
the "full mark" on the tank

Size 55 gal plus about 10 gal in sump 3 inch DSB. 7- pounds rock. 4 JBJ 55W
( 2-10kk, 2-actinic) with 1 Sailfin tang... misc. critters are doing well,
No outbreaks of illness, or weird algae's, blah... blah...

Salinity 1.024
Temp 79 F (varies from 78F to 82F with room temp and lights being on/off)
pH 8.3 ( stable within 0.1 for over 5 years)
Amm. 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate less than 0.03
Phos, 0.1
Copper 0.0

This listing will tell you this an established tank, and not only that I
THINK its ok, but you have the data to show what is going on.

Steve




> Before the folks in this group will try to help you, you need to show that
> you have the initiative to care for a tank. If you are experiencing a
> dye-off, then everyone would assume that you have done a round of water
> tests. They want the readings. What's the temp, specific G, where does
your
> top-off water come from.. etc... No one will reply to "My water is
good..."
>

[Steve Sells]

7- should have read 75 pounds..

Steve

[David]

My water levels are as follows:
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: < 0.1
Hydrometer: 1.023
ALK: Normal

That is all I have tests for. I had my tank water tested for copper. I
was told it was not an issue. Should I be testing for anything else?
I do about a 7 galllon water changes about 1/month.



David wrote:
> How D,
>
> I have a 75 gal. With about 50+lbs live rock, Plenum, and about 75lbs of
> live sand. I have a Red Sea Prizm Protein Skimmer and a wet/dry filter.
> My levels seem to be fine but skunk cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs keep
> dying. Snails, soft corrals, and fish are fine. The wet/dry is empty
> and it used mostly for aeration and water movement. This tank has been
> up for about 7 mos.
> My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
> something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?

[David]

CapFusion wrote:

> "Fred Fisher" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no
>>bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a
>>refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like
>>crazy!!
>
>
> Very good setup.
> Me, too. I have the same method.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

Can you be more specific on your setup? Maybe I should utilize the same.

Thank you.

[CapFusion]

"David" > wrote in message
...
>
> Can you be more specific on your setup? Maybe I should utilize the same.
>


Water Pump:
Main Tank > Refugium
Sump > Main Tank

Gravity Feed:
Refugium > Main Tank
Main Tank > Sump

Sump job is to remove nutrient and bad critter
Sump [40GUS] hold:
Heater [#1]
Skimmer [Mostly turn off]
DSB [5in]
Algae
Agressive critter [shrimp / crab / etc]
Water Pump

Refugium is use to grow pod / algae / Nutrient
Refugium [40GUS]:
Light
Heater [#2]
DSB [~4 to 5.5in]
Algae
Pod
Co2

Main Tank [100GUS]
DSB [4in Front 5.5in Back]
LR
LS
Varies Inhabitant
Light
Water Pump
Heater [#3]

So in reality, Both Sump and Refugium are taking up nutrient.
Sump will also get fresh water mix.
Sump have a spare chamber for multi-purpose use.

Do you any more specific on the setup?

CapFuion,...

[Richard Reynolds]

questions

> pH: 8.2
how did you test it? which kit or probe?

> Nitrate: 0
also which kit?

> Hydrometer: 1.023

you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major
concern

> ALK: Normal
get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal
could be soooo many things

> That is all I have tests for. I had my tank water tested for copper. I
> was told it was not an issue. Should I be testing for anything else?
> I do about a 7 galllon water changes about 1/month.


why did you have it tested for copper, who tested it??? reasons I ask is IF the tank was
previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things.

> > My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
> > something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?
no blue balls :D you probibly have a true sump already as most true sumps are wetdrys
without the bio balls :D its probibly not gona help :( but it wont hurt.

--
Richard Reynolds

[David]

Richard Reynolds wrote:

> questions
>
>
>>pH: 8.2
>
> how did you test it? which kit or probe?
Tested with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. High Range pH Test Kit.
>
>
>>Nitrate: 0
>
> also which kit?
Tested with Red Sea Reef Lab test kit.
>
>
>>Hydrometer: 1.023
>
>
> you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major
> concern
to what?
>
>
>>ALK: Normal
>
> get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal
> could be soooo many things
What is LFS? What "real" kit would you recommend?
>
>
>>That is all I have tests for. I had my tank water tested for copper. I
>>was told it was not an issue. Should I be testing for anything else?
>>I do about a 7 galllon water changes about 1/month.
>
>
>
> why did you have it tested for copper,
Because of dieing Anemone, cleaner shrimp, and hermit crabs.
who tested it???
Local Pet store.
reasons I ask is IF the tank was
> previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things.
Tank was converted from freshwater to sal****er by myself.
>
>
>>>My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use
>>>something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem?
>
> no blue balls :D you probibly have a true sump already as most true sumps are wetdrys
> without the bio balls :D its probibly not gona help :( but it wont hurt.
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> >>pH: 8.2
> > how did you test it? which kit or probe?
> Tested with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. High Range pH Test Kit.

ok could be better but wont worry its more likely not the problem.

> >>Nitrate: 0
> > also which kit?
> Tested with Red Sea Reef Lab test kit.

not ok, you need something other than redsea, the salifert and seachem kits seem reliable
IME there are others but redsea isnt a good one. you should check into this AFTER you
respond about copper below.

> >>Hydrometer: 1.023
> > you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major
> > concern
> to what?

fix whats broken first then up it to between 1.024 and 1.026

> >>ALK: Normal
> > get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal
> > could be soooo many things
> What is LFS? What "real" kit would you recommend?

sorry LFS == local fish store
really ive had close enough results out of all of the ones that give you a number, the
"ok" "ideal" "safe" ..... readings are not apropreate

> > why did you have it tested for copper,
> Because of dieing Anemone, cleaner shrimp, and hermit crabs.
> who tested it???
good enough just needed the connection

> Local Pet store.
ok.

> reasons I ask is IF the tank was
> > previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things.
> Tank was converted from freshwater to sal****er by myself.

did you use *ANY* copper in that tank, and i mean *ANY* at all ever, if so you cant use it
for SW inverts. and this result is why. the best hobby kit ive seen reads to .1ppm the
single source I found in 2 seconds shows copper toxic at .01ppm(there are better
references and I know that number is real low.) if you have used copper in this tank you
do not need to look any further for problems. if you didnt use copper then get to the LFS
and get the nitrates checked with a kit, that gives you a number, and NOT one that uses a
plastic strip and color changing pads :D IME the free tests use the strips and the $ ones
use better kits my lfs charges $1 each test with 4 tests minimum

--
Richard Reynolds

[David]

Richard Reynolds wrote:
>>>>pH: 8.2
>>>
>>>how did you test it? which kit or probe?
>>
>>Tested with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. High Range pH Test Kit.
>
>
> ok could be better but wont worry its more likely not the problem.
>
>
>>>>Nitrate: 0
>>>
>>>also which kit?
>>
>>Tested with Red Sea Reef Lab test kit.
>
>
> not ok, you need something other than redsea, the salifert and seachem kits seem reliable
> IME there are others but redsea isnt a good one. you should check into this AFTER you
> respond about copper below.
>
>
>>>>Hydrometer: 1.023
>>>
>>>you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major
>>>concern
>>
>>to what?
>
>
> fix whats broken first then up it to between 1.024 and 1.026
>
>
>>>>ALK: Normal
>>>
>>>get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal
>>>could be soooo many things
>>
>>What is LFS? What "real" kit would you recommend?
>
>
> sorry LFS == local fish store
> really ive had close enough results out of all of the ones that give you a number, the
> "ok" "ideal" "safe" ..... readings are not apropreate
>
>
>>>why did you have it tested for copper,
>>
>>Because of dieing Anemone, cleaner shrimp, and hermit crabs.
>> who tested it???
>
> good enough just needed the connection
>
>
>>Local Pet store.
>
> ok.
>
>
>>reasons I ask is IF the tank was
>>
>>>previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things.
>>
>>Tank was converted from freshwater to sal****er by myself.
>
>
> did you use *ANY* copper in that tank, and i mean *ANY* at all ever, if so you cant use it
> for SW inverts. and this result is why. the best hobby kit ive seen reads to .1ppm the
> single source I found in 2 seconds shows copper toxic at .01ppm(there are better
> references and I know that number is real low.) if you have used copper in this tank you
> do not need to look any further for problems. if you didnt use copper then get to the LFS
> and get the nitrates checked with a kit, that gives you a number, and NOT one that uses a
> plastic strip and color changing pads :D IME the free tests use the strips and the $ ones
> use better kits my lfs charges $1 each test with 4 tests minimum
>
I never used any copper in this tank that I am aware of. I used to use
lead weights for plants when it was a fresh water tank. That totally
messed up the fresh water tank and once removed the tank returned to
normal. As stated before, I did have the water tested at LFS and he told
me there was no copper in the water. So you think I need better test
kits? Could the problem be from a deficiency instead of a toxic? I
currently use as additives: 2 1/2 tbs 2 x/week SeaChem Reef Plus, Reef
Complete and Reef Calcium. To each gallon of water I add due to
evaporation (every 2 days) on weeks 2 & 4 I add 1tbs Reef advantage and
week 3 1tbs reef builder. I do admit I was slacking for about 2 months.
- thanks.