DSB Vs BB

[Bob Barnhart]

Every group I go to has a different opinion on Deep Sand Beds Vs. Bare
Bottom Tanks. What is the experience and opinion of this group. I respect
the knowledge of a lot of the people in this group. I tend toward the DSB as
the BB looks so unnatural. I like the idea of somewhat biological self
sufficiency.

[CheezWiz]

I converted from BB to DSB and will never go back.
Before, the tank was plagued by high nitrates, now nitrates stay at ZERO.. I
did use a plenum under my DSB....

CW
"Bob Barnhart" > wrote in message
...
> Every group I go to has a different opinion on Deep Sand Beds Vs. Bare
> Bottom Tanks. What is the experience and opinion of this group. I respect
> the knowledge of a lot of the people in this group. I tend toward the DSB
as
> the BB looks so unnatural. I like the idea of somewhat biological self
> sufficiency.
>
>

[Rod]

in my opinion, th epeopl ethat are going bare bottom are the people that did
not take the time to set up their be properly. Not only will a deep sand bed
provide denitrifacation, but can also be a good food source for the reef.
A few good articles by Dr Shimek can be found at www.dtplankton.com , then
the "articles" page"

[Yukon]

"Bob Barnhart" > wrote in message ...
> Every group I go to has a different opinion on Deep Sand Beds Vs. Bare
> Bottom Tanks. What is the experience and opinion of this group. I respect
> the knowledge of a lot of the people in this group. I tend toward the DSB as
> the BB looks so unnatural. I like the idea of somewhat biological self
> sufficiency.
>
>

I think it just comes down to what you like. There are a few people on Reef Central taking out their sandbeds, but it sounds like
they have had them for quite some time, with good results. They are saying that after some years, critters or not, they start to
have trouble. I think no matter what you use, DSB, crushed coral, plenum, or marbles, sooner or later you are going to have to
clean house. The old guy that owns the LFS that I go to has reef tanks set up with UGF's, CC, DSB's, SSB's, a plenum, and BB. He
said for him, they all last the same amount of time before trouble starts. He told me 9 years ago when I went to him to start
setting up my reef, that no matter what you use, if you do your water changes, and do not overfeed, you can plan on 7-9 years before
you have to do a major overhaul. My 55gal started having major problems with brown algae for no reason, so last month, after 9 years
I ripped it apart, took out 75% of the CC, put the rock back in, poured some new CC in front of the rocks, and now hope to be good
for another 9 years. :).

[CapFusion]

"Yukon" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> I think it just comes down to what you like. There are a few people on
Reef Central taking out their sandbeds, but it sounds like
> they have had them for quite some time, with good results. They are saying
that after some years, critters or not, they start to
> have trouble. I think no matter what you use, DSB, crushed coral, plenum,
or marbles, sooner or later you are going to have to
> clean house. The old guy that owns the LFS that I go to has reef tanks set
up with UGF's, CC, DSB's, SSB's, a plenum, and BB. He
> said for him, they all last the same amount of time before trouble starts.
He told me 9 years ago when I went to him to start
> setting up my reef, that no matter what you use, if you do your water
changes, and do not overfeed, you can plan on 7-9 years before
> you have to do a major overhaul. My 55gal started having major problems
with brown algae for no reason, so last month, after 9 years
> I ripped it apart, took out 75% of the CC, put the rock back in, poured
some new CC in front of the rocks, and now hope to be good
> for another 9 years. :).
>

Interesting. 9 years....maybe that is the magic number when to schedule a
overhaul.
Maybe I am lack of experience at this stage since my tank is not nearly at
9Yrs yet. I have seen some of my friend tank way beyond 9yrs mark. I believe
this is call "Old-Tank Syndrome" that I keep hearing about from RC and other
Reefer. My guess is regarding about builting-up nitrogen gas that have been
trap either in the DSB or somewhere. With normal water changes or unfeeding
will not effect anything since this does not apply [well maybe abit]. Also
having plenum or CC on a separate location but connecting through a plumbing
will not remove gas from the main tank. Nitrogen built-up in DSB or any
subrate need to be stir or disturb occasionally to release some excess gas.
Normally worm or any critter that live under or in the sand bed will take
this job.

Check with your LFS if they have anything living in the sand bed or stir up
the sand occasionally to release any excess gas. BTW, I do not mean shifting
a huge plot of sand to release gas from the sand bed. From my friend
experience, it seem to fix this so call "Old-Tank-Syndrome".

Old-Tank-Syndrome = Experience or Mature Reefer / Know it all / Lazy Reefer
that let the tank go and assume nothing will go wrong since that tank been
going this long.
Also, small problem will become big problem later if not taking the time to
be fix which will be another so call "Old-Tank-Syndrome" effect.

I do not see any different if you take out the old CC and then put some more
new CC. The only different is the sand been release gas while you remove the
CC.

The brown algae probably from bacteria that is feeding on your decay that is
being trap by your CC. Moving to the next point, do you have any janitoral
crew like shrimp [any type], worm, or snail that will roam your sand bed or
your rock etc? If you do, how much?

CapFusion,...

[Yukon]

"CapFusion" <CapeFussion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message ...
>
> "Yukon" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > I think it just comes down to what you like. There are a few people on
> Reef Central taking out their sandbeds, but it sounds like
> > they have had them for quite some time, with good results. They are saying
> that after some years, critters or not, they start to
> > have trouble. I think no matter what you use, DSB, crushed coral, plenum,
> or marbles, sooner or later you are going to have to
> > clean house. The old guy that owns the LFS that I go to has reef tanks set
> up with UGF's, CC, DSB's, SSB's, a plenum, and BB. He
> > said for him, they all last the same amount of time before trouble starts.
> He told me 9 years ago when I went to him to start
> > setting up my reef, that no matter what you use, if you do your water
> changes, and do not overfeed, you can plan on 7-9 years before
> > you have to do a major overhaul. My 55gal started having major problems
> with brown algae for no reason, so last month, after 9 years
> > I ripped it apart, took out 75% of the CC, put the rock back in, poured
> some new CC in front of the rocks, and now hope to be good
> > for another 9 years. :).
> >
>
> Interesting. 9 years....maybe that is the magic number when to schedule a
> overhaul.
> Maybe I am lack of experience at this stage since my tank is not nearly at
> 9Yrs yet. I have seen some of my friend tank way beyond 9yrs mark. I believe
> this is call "Old-Tank Syndrome" that I keep hearing about from RC and other
> Reefer. My guess is regarding about builting-up nitrogen gas that have been
> trap either in the DSB or somewhere. With normal water changes or unfeeding
> will not effect anything since this does not apply [well maybe abit]. Also
> having plenum or CC on a separate location but connecting through a plumbing
> will not remove gas from the main tank. Nitrogen built-up in DSB or any
> subrate need to be stir or disturb occasionally to release some excess gas.
> Normally worm or any critter that live under or in the sand bed will take
> this job.
>
> Check with your LFS if they have anything living in the sand bed or stir up
> the sand occasionally to release any excess gas. BTW, I do not mean shifting
> a huge plot of sand to release gas from the sand bed. From my friend
> experience, it seem to fix this so call "Old-Tank-Syndrome".
>
> Old-Tank-Syndrome = Experience or Mature Reefer / Know it all / Lazy Reefer
> that let the tank go and assume nothing will go wrong since that tank been
> going this long.
> Also, small problem will become big problem later if not taking the time to
> be fix which will be another so call "Old-Tank-Syndrome" effect.
>
> I do not see any different if you take out the old CC and then put some more
> new CC. The only different is the sand been release gas while you remove the
> CC.
>
> The brown algae probably from bacteria that is feeding on your decay that is
> being trap by your CC. Moving to the next point, do you have any janitoral
> crew like shrimp [any type], worm, or snail that will roam your sand bed or
> your rock etc? If you do, how much?
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

Hi Cap

My LFS guy has a live DSB. He doesn't stir it. As for "old tank syndrome", I think you are right. Through the years, I regularly
stir my crush coral, then run a Aqua Clear 200 filter with a foam block for 24 hours, to clean up the water. But I was never able to
get to the CC under and in back of the rocks. So when the algae got really bad, and the nitrates and phosphates shot up, it had to
be from all the crap in those places. So this time, after I tore everything apart, I put the rock on the bare bottom, and putt CC in
the front of the rock only. I put some new CC on top of the old, because through the years, it seemed to have lost some of its size
and luster. New stuff might help buffer better too. This time, I also put a pvc pipe with an elbow pointing behind the rock with a
reverse flow powerhead to keep it clean back there. Don't get me wrong, I like sandbeds. I'm just used to the looks of CC, and like
it too.

[Yukon]

"CapFusion" <CapeFussion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in message ...
>
> "Yukon" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > I think it just comes down to what you like. There are a few people on
> Reef Central taking out their sandbeds, but it sounds like
> > they have had them for quite some time, with good results. They are saying
> that after some years, critters or not, they start to
> > have trouble. I think no matter what you use, DSB, crushed coral, plenum,
> or marbles, sooner or later you are going to have to
> > clean house. The old guy that owns the LFS that I go to has reef tanks set
> up with UGF's, CC, DSB's, SSB's, a plenum, and BB. He
> > said for him, they all last the same amount of time before trouble starts.
> He told me 9 years ago when I went to him to start
> > setting up my reef, that no matter what you use, if you do your water
> changes, and do not overfeed, you can plan on 7-9 years before
> > you have to do a major overhaul. My 55gal started having major problems
> with brown algae for no reason, so last month, after 9 years
> > I ripped it apart, took out 75% of the CC, put the rock back in, poured
> some new CC in front of the rocks, and now hope to be good
> > for another 9 years. :).
> >
>
> Interesting. 9 years....maybe that is the magic number when to schedule a
> overhaul.
> Maybe I am lack of experience at this stage since my tank is not nearly at
> 9Yrs yet. I have seen some of my friend tank way beyond 9yrs mark. I believe
> this is call "Old-Tank Syndrome" that I keep hearing about from RC and other
> Reefer. My guess is regarding about builting-up nitrogen gas that have been
> trap either in the DSB or somewhere. With normal water changes or unfeeding
> will not effect anything since this does not apply [well maybe abit]. Also
> having plenum or CC on a separate location but connecting through a plumbing
> will not remove gas from the main tank. Nitrogen built-up in DSB or any
> subrate need to be stir or disturb occasionally to release some excess gas.
> Normally worm or any critter that live under or in the sand bed will take
> this job.
>
> Check with your LFS if they have anything living in the sand bed or stir up
> the sand occasionally to release any excess gas. BTW, I do not mean shifting
> a huge plot of sand to release gas from the sand bed. From my friend
> experience, it seem to fix this so call "Old-Tank-Syndrome".
>
> Old-Tank-Syndrome = Experience or Mature Reefer / Know it all / Lazy Reefer
> that let the tank go and assume nothing will go wrong since that tank been
> going this long.
> Also, small problem will become big problem later if not taking the time to
> be fix which will be another so call "Old-Tank-Syndrome" effect.
>
> I do not see any different if you take out the old CC and then put some more
> new CC. The only different is the sand been release gas while you remove the
> CC.
>
> The brown algae probably from bacteria that is feeding on your decay that is
> being trap by your CC. Moving to the next point, do you have any janitoral
> crew like shrimp [any type], worm, or snail that will roam your sand bed or
> your rock etc? If you do, how much?
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

I forgot to answer your question about clean up crew. I have had many in the past, but right now am down to:

0 snails
1 blue leg hermit
2 scarlet reef hermits
1 coral banded shrimp

Fish:

1 lemon peel
1 yellow tang
1 maroon stripe clown

[CapFusion]

"Yukon" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> I forgot to answer your question about clean up crew. I have had many in
the past, but right now am down to:
>
> 0 snails
> 1 blue leg hermit
> 2 scarlet reef hermits
> 1 coral banded shrimp
>
> Fish:
>
> 1 lemon peel
> 1 yellow tang
> 1 maroon stripe clown
>

Yeap, yep..... too low. You may need to introduce some since your crew
somehow keep on disappearing. You seem to answering your own question to
your problem [I think]. I assume your crew is simply dying-off by themself
or some fish maybe picking them off.

Regarding about your CC is getting smaller.
CC = Crush Coral = Ex-shell of some critter = Calcium
This Calcium get dissolve [Very Slowly] to your water and will taking up by
something or if not than it will be remove by your schedule water changes.

BTW, no comment on the CC.

If I need to stir or disturb, I use a long straw. Some bubble will go
through the straw. But normally I do not manually stir and let it do
automatically by nature [critter]. Eventhough I just say that, I still check
if anything need a helping hand or a boost in the right direction. Having a
mature or stable tank does not mean lacking off but still need checking.

CapFusion,...