[Long] What is overstocking?

[Stu]

Hi all,

My tank is overstocked. I know this because my nitrates are high and
also because if I posted a fish list here everyone would go through
the roof and killfile me. :) Unfortunately there are very few fish
that I'm willing to part with just yet.

Last night though, I was wondering exactly what makes a tank
overstocked, and I came up with five possible indicators of
overstocking. I'm looking for comments and opinions from the more
experienced aquarists here (I still consider myself a newbie). Rules
of thumb like inches per gallon are useful, but then there's a big
difference between a 6" pipefish and a 6" tang. :) So what exactly
makes a tank overstocked?

1) Poor water quality. Nuff said.

2) Insufficient tank size for the size and number of fish.
(Insufficient swimming room). Say you've got a 6" tang in a 48x24x30
tank (140g), like I do. Is that sufficient? Opinions seem to vary.
Both my tangs are happy so I don't see it's a problem. (I have a 5"
hippo and a 6" pacific sailfin). But if that tank is ok for a 6" tang,
what about SIX 6" tangs? Obviously that's silly.

3) Stress (can be related to #2 but not necessarily). If your fish are
stressed then it could be due to overstocking.

4) Agression (again can be related to #3) or incompatible species.
Each fish needs its own space and if there are too many then finding
that may be impossible and leads to stress and agression. Eg six 6"
tangs.

5) Aesthetics. If the tank looks overcrowded, or too busy, then it's
overstocked.


The first four can have other causes than being overstocked. Eg a
single 6" tang in a 2' tank isn't necessarily overstocking, but it
does violate #2.

Now, the million dollar question is: If your water quality is fine,
your fish are happy and have enough space, aren't stressed or overly
agressive (and all compatible), and your tank is visually pleasing,
then could it still be overstocked?

[Who can spot my angle? hehe] My tank is overstocked, but it only
suffers from #1 IMHO. If, with increased filtration (more LR, more
skimming, macroalgae, more detrivores, possibly more frequent water
changes), I eliminated the nitrate problem... then would my tank still
be overstocked?

In short, does it matter how many fish you have if you're fine on the
above points?

A final note... for a fish only tank, water quality is less important
since nitrates are more harmful to inverts than fish. OTOH a reef tank
will typically have less swimming room due to corals and possibly more
live rock. (My LR stops about a foot from the water surface so there's
plenty of swimming room above it, and I don't have a real lot of
corals yet. I'm going to get more LR soon though, and maybe use some
pvc pipe supports to allow more water flow through it).

Please post your comments and opinions... and forgive any ignorance I
may be blatantly displaying. :)

Cheers,
Stu

[Marc Levenson]

Stu,

My 55g has 9 fish in it. It is overstocked, okay? My largest fish is
my Coral Beauty, but my Hippo Tang will keep growing and my plans
include a huge upgrade in the near future.

If you need to improve water quality, what about incorporating a huge
sump to create more volume? "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution".

More fish require more food, and fish tend to create a lot of waste.
That might be your nitrate issue.

Adding a refugium with macro algae would help a lot.

If your fish aren't growing to their normal size (in nature), there is a
good chance they are suffering from a lack of space. However, that has
to be taken with a grain of salt - some fish get much larger in nature
(12-16") compared to our tanks, even under the best of circumstances.

Marc


Stu wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My tank is overstocked. I know this because my nitrates are high and
> also because if I posted a fish list here everyone would go through
> the roof and killfile me. :) Unfortunately there are very few fish
> that I'm willing to part with just yet.
>
> Last night though, I was wondering exactly what makes a tank
> overstocked, and I came up with five possible indicators of
> overstocking. I'm looking for comments and opinions from the more
> experienced aquarists here (I still consider myself a newbie). Rules
> of thumb like inches per gallon are useful, but then there's a big
> difference between a 6" pipefish and a 6" tang. :) So what exactly
> makes a tank overstocked?
>
> 1) Poor water quality. Nuff said.
>
> 2) Insufficient tank size for the size and number of fish.
> (Insufficient swimming room). Say you've got a 6" tang in a 48x24x30
> tank (140g), like I do. Is that sufficient? Opinions seem to vary.
> Both my tangs are happy so I don't see it's a problem. (I have a 5"
> hippo and a 6" pacific sailfin). But if that tank is ok for a 6" tang,
> what about SIX 6" tangs? Obviously that's silly.
>
> 3) Stress (can be related to #2 but not necessarily). If your fish are
> stressed then it could be due to overstocking.
>
> 4) Agression (again can be related to #3) or incompatible species.
> Each fish needs its own space and if there are too many then finding
> that may be impossible and leads to stress and agression. Eg six 6"
> tangs.
>
> 5) Aesthetics. If the tank looks overcrowded, or too busy, then it's
> overstocked.
>
>
> The first four can have other causes than being overstocked. Eg a
> single 6" tang in a 2' tank isn't necessarily overstocking, but it
> does violate #2.
>
> Now, the million dollar question is: If your water quality is fine,
> your fish are happy and have enough space, aren't stressed or overly
> agressive (and all compatible), and your tank is visually pleasing,
> then could it still be overstocked?
>
> [Who can spot my angle? hehe] My tank is overstocked, but it only
> suffers from #1 IMHO. If, with increased filtration (more LR, more
> skimming, macroalgae, more detrivores, possibly more frequent water
> changes), I eliminated the nitrate problem... then would my tank still
> be overstocked?
>
> In short, does it matter how many fish you have if you're fine on the
> above points?
>
> A final note... for a fish only tank, water quality is less important
> since nitrates are more harmful to inverts than fish. OTOH a reef tank
> will typically have less swimming room due to corals and possibly more
> live rock. (My LR stops about a foot from the water surface so there's
> plenty of swimming room above it, and I don't have a real lot of
> corals yet. I'm going to get more LR soon though, and maybe use some
> pvc pipe supports to allow more water flow through it).
>
> Please post your comments and opinions... and forgive any ignorance I
> may be blatantly displaying. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Stu

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Toni]

"Stu" > wrote in message
om...
>
> 2) Insufficient tank size for the size and number of fish.
> (Insufficient swimming room). Say you've got a 6" tang in a 48x24x30
> tank (140g), like I do. Is that sufficient? Opinions seem to vary.
> Both my tangs are happy so I don't see it's a problem.



Just keep in mind that #2 is quite subjective.

Why do you think both tangs are happy with 48" of swimming room- because
they live?
Wouldn't a 6" open water swimmer need more than 4 feet of a straight shot to
thrive?

--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/reef.htm
<not the Tang Police- trying to justify a Hippo in a 48" tank myself>

[CapFusion]

You seem like you already know the answers of your questions. Or answering
to your own questions.

CapFusion,...


"Stu" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> My tank is overstocked. I know this because my nitrates are high and
> also because if I posted a fish list here everyone would go through
> the roof and killfile me. :) Unfortunately there are very few fish
> that I'm willing to part with just yet.
>
> Last night though, I was wondering exactly what makes a tank
> overstocked, and I came up with five possible indicators of
> overstocking. I'm looking for comments and opinions from the more
> experienced aquarists here (I still consider myself a newbie). Rules
> of thumb like inches per gallon are useful, but then there's a big
> difference between a 6" pipefish and a 6" tang. :) So what exactly
> makes a tank overstocked?
>
> 1) Poor water quality. Nuff said.
>
> 2) Insufficient tank size for the size and number of fish.
> (Insufficient swimming room). Say you've got a 6" tang in a 48x24x30
> tank (140g), like I do. Is that sufficient? Opinions seem to vary.
> Both my tangs are happy so I don't see it's a problem. (I have a 5"
> hippo and a 6" pacific sailfin). But if that tank is ok for a 6" tang,
> what about SIX 6" tangs? Obviously that's silly.
>
> 3) Stress (can be related to #2 but not necessarily). If your fish are
> stressed then it could be due to overstocking.
>
> 4) Agression (again can be related to #3) or incompatible species.
> Each fish needs its own space and if there are too many then finding
> that may be impossible and leads to stress and agression. Eg six 6"
> tangs.
>
> 5) Aesthetics. If the tank looks overcrowded, or too busy, then it's
> overstocked.
>
>
> The first four can have other causes than being overstocked. Eg a
> single 6" tang in a 2' tank isn't necessarily overstocking, but it
> does violate #2.
>
> Now, the million dollar question is: If your water quality is fine,
> your fish are happy and have enough space, aren't stressed or overly
> agressive (and all compatible), and your tank is visually pleasing,
> then could it still be overstocked?
>
> [Who can spot my angle? hehe] My tank is overstocked, but it only
> suffers from #1 IMHO. If, with increased filtration (more LR, more
> skimming, macroalgae, more detrivores, possibly more frequent water
> changes), I eliminated the nitrate problem... then would my tank still
> be overstocked?
>
> In short, does it matter how many fish you have if you're fine on the
> above points?
>
> A final note... for a fish only tank, water quality is less important
> since nitrates are more harmful to inverts than fish. OTOH a reef tank
> will typically have less swimming room due to corals and possibly more
> live rock. (My LR stops about a foot from the water surface so there's
> plenty of swimming room above it, and I don't have a real lot of
> corals yet. I'm going to get more LR soon though, and maybe use some
> pvc pipe supports to allow more water flow through it).
>
> Please post your comments and opinions... and forgive any ignorance I
> may be blatantly displaying. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Stu

[Richard Reynolds]

> My tank is overstocked. I know this because my nitrates are high and
> also because if I posted a fish list here everyone would go through
> the roof and killfile me. :) Unfortunately there are very few fish
> that I'm willing to part with just yet.

it sounds like its currently a FOWLR, nitrates are not a primary clue for
overstocking a FOWLR.

> Last night though, I was wondering exactly what makes a tank
> overstocked, and I came up with five possible indicators of
> overstocking.

> 1) Poor water quality. Nuff said.
this is a "reef" group, a FOWLR newsgroup (non exist) would be a better place if
you actually have a FOWLR to comparing water quality to see if its really poor,
or just not reef friendly

> 2) Insufficient tank size for the size and number of fish.
<snip>


> 3) Stress (can be related to #2 but not necessarily). If your fish are
> stressed then it could be due to overstocking.
>
> 4) Agression <snip>
>
> 5) Aesthetics. If the tank looks overcrowded, or too busy, then it's
> overstocked.

thats a much more difficult guage, I like the looks of a heavily populated tank,
its why I still keep a FO. IMO #1-4 cover everything that #5 hits, and #5 is an
effect of the other limits not a guage.

a few things you might be missing

experience.

I know that I can keep 5000 clowns alive and growing well in a 55, I know this
because I do it often. I have had to "adjust" my ways to be able to do it, its not
something I just knew how to do. a newbie might have issues with a single clown
in that same 55g tank.

total water volume vs tank size

I keep my 5000 clowns in a 55, the total water volume is nearly 10X that yet they
are still in a 55, going to a 5500g tank brings the food/ fish ratio the other
direction. as is I dump at least 2oz of pellet foods per week and none of it
hits the bottom of the tank, if I had a 5500 tank id have to scatter tons of
food around so that every fish gets some, and some would fall to the tank
bottom.

equipment.

though it generally leads to areas covered like high nitrates, its still a
factor, and probibly is a primary factor to your poor water quality. on the
stocking limit. an empty 55 with only an airstone will be able to hold a very
limited number of fish, that same 55 with a huge sponge filter or a high
powered powerfilter will be able to process ammonia/nitrite of many fish.

ability to handle abnormal situations.

things like a power outage or pump failure will effect the tank, you have to
plan for those kinds of situations, and often times that means scaling back the
bio-load

> Now, the million dollar question is: If your water quality is fine,
> your fish are happy and have enough space, aren't stressed or overly
> agressive (and all compatible), and your tank is visually pleasing,
> then could it still be overstocked?

nope!

> [Who can spot my angle? hehe] My tank is overstocked, but it only
> suffers from #1 IMHO. If, with increased filtration (more LR, more
> skimming, macroalgae, more detrivores, possibly more frequent water
> changes), I eliminated the nitrate problem... then would my tank still
> be overstocked?

unfortunately you really suffer from #1, and #2. though the water volume is ok
for 2 tangs(note not great just ok) the length is not. 4' is not big enough for
your adult tangs. if you know that you will be getting a larger tank before your
tangs become adults then for now you dont have #2.


> In short, does it matter how many fish you have if you're fine on the
> above points?

not really.

richard reynolds

[Stu]

Marc Levenson > wrote in message >...
>
> If you need to improve water quality, what about incorporating a huge
> sump to create more volume? "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution".

Got one :)

Actually I'm buying a second tank (though it's only 4'x1.5'x2') and
setting it up tomorrow (secondhand setup with cannister filter,
skimmer, LR... no sump though).
My main tank needs to be moved so we can redo the flooring. That's a
big job... so I intend to use the new tank to help.

If I can convince my wife that we should keep the tank, then I'll
split my bioload between the two tanks - including separating the
tangs etc. The second, smaller tank, will be FOWLR since I won't have
good lighting over it (just fluoros).
Hence, problem will be solved anyway...... but, my curiosity still
persists hence my post. :)

> More fish require more food, and fish tend to create a lot of waste.
> That might be your nitrate issue.

Yes, exactly... and I've been way overfeeding from what I've been
reading lately.

> Adding a refugium with macro algae would help a lot.

Going that way too... only just got macro, trying to get some more
caulerpa racemosa (crabs ate my last lot I think)

Cheers,
Stu

[Stu]

Richard Reynolds > wrote in message >...
>
> it sounds like its currently a FOWLR, nitrates are not a primary clue for
> overstocking a FOWLR.
>

Actually it's not, although I don't have a LOT of corals at the
moment. (Mushrooms, hammer coral, torch corals, gorgonian, toadstool,
sinularia, daisy star polyps, small goniopora that came in on some
rock).

> experience.
>
> I know that I can keep 5000 clowns alive and growing well in a 55, I know this
> because I do it often. I have had to "adjust" my ways to be able to do it, its not
> something I just knew how to do. a newbie might have issues with a single clown
> in that same 55g tank.

Yes, that's a good point. I guess all of my points assumed sufficient
experience to be able to handle it.

> total water volume vs tank size

Again good point. If I had a 500g 'sump' things would be different as
far as water parameters go.

> ability to handle abnormal situations.
>
> things like a power outage or pump failure will effect the tank, you have to
> plan for those kinds of situations, and often times that means scaling back the
> bio-load

Sure - this is linked to the experience factor too. Eg after one of my
first power outages my skimmer overflowed, and even overflowed the
excess waste bottle. I don't have that problem anymore. When I
modified my sump the tank went skimmerless for a weekend, so I added
an airstone, etc.


> unfortunately you really suffer from #1, and #2. though the water volume is ok
> for 2 tangs(note not great just ok) the length is not. 4' is not big enough


Before I got tangs I checked this out... some said minimum 55g, some
said 90g, some 125g. Now some are saying minimum 180g. It can be hard
to decide when all you've got is varying opinions. As for the length,
I couldn't find any opinions at all. (125g could be 6'x1.5'x2' or
4'x2'x2.25' or 3'x3'x2'... all are quite different).


> your adult tangs. if you know that you will be getting a larger tank before your
> tangs become adults then for now you dont have #2.

I don't consider I have problem #2 at the moment - when I got the
sailfin I was fully aware of the full adult size and that it would
outgrow my tank. Before that time comes, I will either upgrade or
(more likely) donate it to someone/the 10' tank at the LFS.


Thanks for your comments,

Stu