Re: What rocks will help harden my water ?

[NetMax]

"Alan Silver"
> wrote
in message ...
> Hello,
>
> I'm contemplating a cichlid tank, but have very soft water. My LFS
> suggested using a crushed coral substrate and rocks of the sort that
you
> see in marine tanks as these would help harden the water.
>
> Trouble is, I don't like the look of these rocks. They are too light. I
> want something darker to contrast with the fish. I was wondering about
> slate or granite (both of which seem to be common decoration for
cichlid
> tanks).
>
> Anyone know if these rocks will be as effective as hardening the water
> as the marine rock ? If not, any other suggestions ?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Alan Silver

Neither slate nor granite (of conventional compositions) will harden your
water. Calcium is typically seen as a white mineral in rocks, corals,
shells, bones etc.

A quick list of water hardeners : argonite, dolomite, limestone, coral
and tufa stone (all of these as stones or ground into a substrate), utah
ice and petrified wood (calcified). I've never seen the colour of
argonite. Utah Ice is almost transparent but I've been told that it only
affects gH and not kH. Dolomite can have a greyish hue. Petrified wood
is shades of brown and would look very attractive, but is somewhat
expensive. There are also chemical methods to harden water (which I have
no recommendations to make), or you can pre-harden the water in a storage
tank, or use the choosen minerals in a sump filter to continuously harden
the water. I'm not aware of any other options. hth

NetMax

[SG]

In article >, Alan Silver wrote:
>
>I'm contemplating a cichlid tank, but have very soft water. My LFS
>suggested using a crushed coral substrate and rocks of the sort that you
>see in marine tanks as these would help harden the water.

These may harden the water somewhat, but don't expect miracles. A
Cichlid "Salt" or buffer mix will work better.

A simple test is to put a few drops of vinager on the rock. If it
fizzess then the rock probably contains calcium carbonate. Calcium
carbonate will harden the water.

[Earl D Fitzgerald]

Just use crushed coral or coral sand to harden your water. A good inch or
so should leach enough hardness to make the water desireable for your fish.
You can use granite stones to create the ground cover for the fish.

Fishboy


"Alan Silver"
> wrote in
message ...
> Hello,
>
> I'm contemplating a cichlid tank, but have very soft water. My LFS
> suggested using a crushed coral substrate and rocks of the sort that you
> see in marine tanks as these would help harden the water.
>
> Trouble is, I don't like the look of these rocks. They are too light. I
> want something darker to contrast with the fish. I was wondering about
> slate or granite (both of which seem to be common decoration for cichlid
> tanks).
>
> Anyone know if these rocks will be as effective as hardening the water
> as the marine rock ? If not, any other suggestions ?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

[Robert Flory]

I have seen black marble in headstone shops. They often have scraps you
could breakup. Lots of limestone and dolomites are dark in color. What
part of the world are you in.

Bob
"Earl D Fitzgerald" > wrote in message
...
> Just use crushed coral or coral sand to harden your water. A good inch or
> so should leach enough hardness to make the water desireable for your
fish.
> You can use granite stones to create the ground cover for the fish.
>
> Fishboy
>
>
> "Alan Silver"
> > wrote in
> message ...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm contemplating a cichlid tank, but have very soft water. My LFS
> > suggested using a crushed coral substrate and rocks of the sort that you
> > see in marine tanks as these would help harden the water.
> >
> > Trouble is, I don't like the look of these rocks. They are too light. I
> > want something darker to contrast with the fish. I was wondering about
> > slate or granite (both of which seem to be common decoration for cichlid
> > tanks).
> >
> > Anyone know if these rocks will be as effective as hardening the water
> > as the marine rock ? If not, any other suggestions ?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > --
> > Alan Silver
> >
>
>

[Stan]

Most of our cichlid buddies will acclimate fairly well to your water. I
guess it just depends on your choice. A lot of the Africans really could
not care less, as do the New World types. If you go for Apistos, Angels,
and Discus than your in real luck already.

Just because you read about folks producing liquid rock for their fish does
not mean its actually required to raise them effectively. The safest bet is
usually what your tap brings.

I would suggest buying a TDS meter (conductivity meter). Its the choice of
experience in the prevention of blowing out your fishes gills due to extreme
osmotic shocks. Many here just keep ranking about pH shock and virtues of
maintaining pinpoint pH accuracy, when really its the osmotic pressure thats
of most concern. Covers the Old and New Tank syndromes fairly well and is
of great importance when acclimating fish.



"Alan Silver"
> wrote in
message ...
> Hello,
>
> I'm contemplating a cichlid tank, but have very soft water. My LFS
> suggested using a crushed coral substrate and rocks of the sort that you
> see in marine tanks as these would help harden the water.
>
> Trouble is, I don't like the look of these rocks. They are too light. I
> want something darker to contrast with the fish. I was wondering about
> slate or granite (both of which seem to be common decoration for cichlid
> tanks).
>
> Anyone know if these rocks will be as effective as hardening the water
> as the marine rock ? If not, any other suggestions ?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

[Alan Silver]

In article >, NetMax
> writes
>Neither slate nor granite (of conventional compositions) will harden
>your water. Calcium is typically seen as a white mineral in rocks,
>corals, shells, bones etc.

And therein lies the problem. The rocks the LFS suggested were white as
well. Don't like them. I want dark rocks to contrast with the fish.

From other posts, it looks like it might not be such a problem if I have
the crushed coral substrate, and maybe put some in the filter to enhance
its effectiveness.

Thanx to all who responded, just 'cos I only replied to some doesn't
mean the rest of the posts weren't helpful !! All appreciated.

--
Alan Silver

[Alan Silver]

In article >, Earl D Fitzgerald
> writes
>Just use crushed coral or coral sand to harden your water. A good inch
>or so should leach enough hardness to make the water desireable for
>your fish. You can use granite stones to create the ground cover for
>the fish.

That sounds like the advice I wanted to hear !!

Seriously, if the coral is going to do the job on its own, then I don't
need to worry about getting the right rocks. I can just choose what
looks best.

Thanx for that

--
Alan Silver

[Alan Silver]

In article >, Robert
Flory > writes
>I have seen black marble in headstone shops. They often have scraps
>you could breakup. Lots of limestone and dolomites are dark in color.
>What part of the world are you in.

I'm in NW England. I have a friend who deals in stone, so I should be
able to get some bits of marble, granite, you name it.

Thanx for the info

--
Alan Silver

[Alan Silver]

In article >, Stan
> writes
>Most of our cichlid buddies will acclimate fairly well to your water.
>I guess it just depends on your choice. A lot of the Africans really
>could not care less, as do the New World types. If you go for Apistos,
>Angels, and Discus than your in real luck already.

I'm looking at Pseudotropheus saulosi amongst others. I think they were
all Malawi ones. I'm getting a bit confused with all of the names !! I'm
used to tropical fish that have simple names like guppy and gourami.
These long Latin names are doing my head in !!

>Just because you read about folks producing liquid rock for their fish
>does not mean its actually required to raise them effectively. The
>safest bet is usually what your tap brings.

Understood, but I'm trying to do what's best for my fish. There's no
point in dumping them into water that's very different from their ideal.

Having said that, the ones I would be buying will have been in local
water anyway, so it might not be such a problem. Don't know if the LFS
do anything special to the water in the cichlid tanks.

>I would suggest buying a TDS meter (conductivity meter). Its the
>choice of experience in the prevention of blowing out your fishes gills
>due to extreme osmotic shocks. Many here just keep ranking about pH
>shock and virtues of maintaining pinpoint pH accuracy, when really its
>the osmotic pressure thats of most concern. Covers the Old and New
>Tank syndromes fairly well and is of great importance when acclimating
>fish.

Sorry, you lost me a bit here. What is osmotic shock ? Never heard of
this before. Is it something I need to worry about ?

Thanx for the reply

--
Alan Silver

[RedForeman ©®]

Limestone I've heard is good for raising hardness, or real corals, dead
corals, but they will dissolve over time... mine did...
"Alan Silver"
> wrote in
message ...
> Hello,
>
> I'm contemplating a cichlid tank, but have very soft water. My LFS
> suggested using a crushed coral substrate and rocks of the sort that you
> see in marine tanks as these would help harden the water.
>
> Trouble is, I don't like the look of these rocks. They are too light. I
> want something darker to contrast with the fish. I was wondering about
> slate or granite (both of which seem to be common decoration for cichlid
> tanks).
>
> Anyone know if these rocks will be as effective as hardening the water
> as the marine rock ? If not, any other suggestions ?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

[SG]

In article >, Stan wrote:

> Water over 500 is defined as non-potable.

True, but only because of the typically terrible taste.

[~Vicki ~]

I have never heard of any rocks which will harden water. But I have
seen plenty of additives which are used in rift valley cichlid tanks.

Vicki

[Bob K.]

I have very soft water and Malawi cichlids (a few Tanganyikan's)
and the marine substrates would help..
But, baking soda, some epsom salts & table salt has worked
for me for many years..

Rocks that help water hardness will tend to be light..

Bob

[Racf]

"Alan Silver"
> wrote
in message ...
> In article >, Stan
> > writes
> >It is like you are at the equator in Equador and are suddenly
> >transported to the top of Mount Everest......Your lungs and you would
> >be screwed...... Perhaps someone with a lot of technical expertise
> >could elaborate on this.
>
> Thanx for the explanation.
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

Well an easy explanation is the different like between distilled pure
water and water with a package of jello dissolved into it. The pure
water is thin, while the jello water is thick. The difference between
them on the gills of the fish to deal with. Fish breath through a
process of Osmosis. The jello water places more pressure on the gills
membranes than pure water would if the fish had become accustomed to the
pure water. Over time the fish could become accustomed to the jello
water as it absorbed jello. After a while the difference between the
inside and outside of the gill membrane would be equalized.

At first there would be a lot of jello pressure, so much it could damage
the delicate membrane..

A bizarre perhaps but thats the best way I can explain it this instant.

Where is Nestor10 when you really need him.
Maybe a google could help.

[jduprie]

OK gang... nice start at describing gas exchange, but a couple a nit (and
pet peeves):

Its *not* osmosis. Osmosis relates *only* to water crossing a membrane,
nothing else. Other than that, the description is pretty good. There's a
nice complex equation that takes into account all sorts of details relating
to the water chemistry and the blood chemistry of the fish, but it all boils
down to pressure. When there's more of something on one side of a membrane,
the "something" will try (personification...) to move accross the membrane
so that there is the same amount of it all over (its called diffusion). A
complicating factor in things like gas exchange (gills) is that the blood in
the gill fillaments contains cells that have binding sites that want to grab
up oxygen, and others that want to dump CO2, so in addition to diffusion
(passive), you've got a more active mechnism going on too.

Bottom line is that the blood in "wants" to suck up oxygen and dump CO2 via
the gills. Without getting into a ton of cell physiology, chemistry and
physics, thats about as good as the explanation gets.

BTW - I don't think going from sea level to the top of a big mountain would
be too devastating to a person. theres a very small chance that there might
be some very minor pressure problems (like your ears would pop), but other
than that, not much. Probably about the same as going from the bottom of
swimming pool to the surface - about 30 feet of water has the same pressure
as teh entire atmosphere..... Any scuba diver that remembers his/her classes
should remember this....


--JD


"Racf" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Alan Silver"
> > wrote
> in message ...
> > In article >, Stan
> > > writes
> > >It is like you are at the equator in Equador and are suddenly
> > >transported to the top of Mount Everest......Your lungs and you would
> > >be screwed...... Perhaps someone with a lot of technical expertise
> > >could elaborate on this.
> >
> > Thanx for the explanation.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Silver
> >
>
> Well an easy explanation is the different like between distilled pure
> water and water with a package of jello dissolved into it. The pure
> water is thin, while the jello water is thick. The difference between
> them on the gills of the fish to deal with. Fish breath through a
> process of Osmosis. The jello water places more pressure on the gills
> membranes than pure water would if the fish had become accustomed to the
> pure water. Over time the fish could become accustomed to the jello
> water as it absorbed jello. After a while the difference between the
> inside and outside of the gill membrane would be equalized.
>
> At first there would be a lot of jello pressure, so much it could damage
> the delicate membrane..
>
> A bizarre perhaps but thats the best way I can explain it this instant.
>
> Where is Nestor10 when you really need him.
> Maybe a google could help.
>
>

[Racf]

"jduprie" > wrote in message
news:EWHQa.62616$Ph3.6731@sccrnsc04...
> OK gang... nice start at describing gas exchange, but a couple a nit
(and
> pet peeves):
>
> Its *not* osmosis. Osmosis relates *only* to water crossing a
membrane,
> nothing else.

Well not sure about that.

Other than that, the description is pretty good. There's a
> nice complex equation that takes into account all sorts of details
relating
> to the water chemistry and the blood chemistry of the fish, but it all
boils
> down to pressure. When there's more of something on one side of a
membrane,
> the "something" will try (personification...) to move accross the
membrane
> so that there is the same amount of it all over (its called
diffusion). A
> complicating factor in things like gas exchange (gills) is that the
blood in
> the gill fillaments contains cells that have binding sites that want
to grab
> up oxygen, and others that want to dump CO2, so in addition to
diffusion
> (passive), you've got a more active mechnism going on too.
>
> Bottom line is that the blood in "wants" to suck up oxygen and dump
CO2 via
> the gills. Without getting into a ton of cell physiology, chemistry
and
> physics, thats about as good as the explanation gets.

Found lots of articles with the details in google land. Lots of
Government and Scientific stuff.

>
> BTW - I don't think going from sea level to the top of a big mountain
would
> be too devastating to a person.

Actually, the person would probably die within a short time. You would
need a tank of O2 for Everest and most likey whats some call Altitude
sickness would wack you quick. The point was that you would be gasping
and breathing hard being unable to take in enough O2 at that altitude.
Acidosis would likely ensue. It would suck.......

theres a very small chance that there might
> be some very minor pressure problems (like your ears would pop), but
other
> than that, not much. Probably about the same as going from the bottom
of
> swimming pool to the surface - about 30 feet of water has the same
pressure
> as teh entire atmosphere..... Any scuba diver that remembers his/her
classes
> should remember this....

Except after your ears pop you would die after going into shock and
perhaps a few final convulsions.. Pretty much what fish go through when
their gill's cells rupture and can no longer respirate, with acidosis
occuring because they cannot regulate their fluid acidity anymore.


Glad you noticed my sad attempt at explaining Osmotic Shock. I did a
pour job.....

>
>
> --JD
>
>
> "Racf" > wrote in
message
> ...
> >
> > "Alan Silver"
> > >
wrote
> > in message ...
> > > In article >, Stan
> > > > writes
> > > >It is like you are at the equator in Equador and are suddenly
> > > >transported to the top of Mount Everest......Your lungs and you
would
> > > >be screwed...... Perhaps someone with a lot of technical
expertise
> > > >could elaborate on this.
> > >
> > > Thanx for the explanation.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alan Silver
> > >
> >
> > Well an easy explanation is the different like between distilled
pure
> > water and water with a package of jello dissolved into it. The pure
> > water is thin, while the jello water is thick. The difference
between
> > them on the gills of the fish to deal with. Fish breath through a
> > process of Osmosis. The jello water places more pressure on the
gills
> > membranes than pure water would if the fish had become accustomed to
the
> > pure water. Over time the fish could become accustomed to the jello
> > water as it absorbed jello. After a while the difference between
the
> > inside and outside of the gill membrane would be equalized.
> >
> > At first there would be a lot of jello pressure, so much it could
damage
> > the delicate membrane..
> >
> > A bizarre perhaps but thats the best way I can explain it this
instant.
> >
> > Where is Nestor10 when you really need him.
> > Maybe a google could help.
> >
> >
>
>