Can I use same overfloow for sump and closed-loop ?

[Pszemol]

I am thinking about plumbing in my new 58 gallon reef ready tank.
It is Oceanic, Reef Ready tank with overflow in the center back.
36"x18"x21"H. It has drilled two 1.75" holes for 1" bulkhead each.

Originally it is designed to have one hole used for the drain
pipe to the sump/wet-dry and the second for the return pipe...
http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquariums/megaflow_demo.shtml

I have read somewhere, that 1" drain pipe will allow for
a maximum water flow of 600gph. I do not want to have any
eye-sore powerheads inside but 600gph will not be enough...

I am tinking about something else, but not sure if this will work.

1-st idea: to have two drain pipes going to the sump connected to
bulkheads in the bottom and the return to be made with separate
pipes going over the back wall from one or two pumps in the sump.
For the returns I could use any U-shaped pipes (for example the
SQWD return pipe pictured here (black u-shaped with diffuser):
http://islandaquatics.com/product_detail.php?category_id=&product_id=24

2-nd idea: one drain pipe going to the sump, and normal return
pump would pump water up over the back wall... like in the 1-st.
But the second drain pipe would be looped back with the second
pump, not going to the sump, doing closed-loop instead.

I am not sure if the 2-nd idea would work - it could happend
than water flow in both drain pipes would be unequal, and
closed-loop pump could pump water faster than the pump in the
sump working with a higher head... Anybody tried this before ?

[Croosh]

Pszemol,
I think closed loop on the overflow defeats the purpose.
Instead you might try something like Mark did:
http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html.
You can use u-shaped intake and exhaust to make the thing look better
(black doesn't stand out as much as white).
I have something similar, except i drilled three more holes in the tank
for intake/exhaust.

Hope this helps.
Yuriy

[Pszemol]

"Croosh" > wrote in message ups.com...
> I think closed loop on the overflow defeats the purpose.

Could you please explain what exactly you mean ?

[Croosh]

Pszemol,
The idea of closed loop is to have a closed system that doesn't involve
overflow. Most overflows are rated for certain flow rate and in most
cases you'd want more circulation that they are designed for.
Depending on the type of organisms you are keeping, fro 58G tank you
might want from flow rate from as low as 250 GPH to 1200GPH or even
more than that. If your overflow is rated at 600GPH, even 10x tank
turnover rate will max it out. (On the other hand, I have 1" ID
overflow handling about 800-900GPH from QuietOne 4000, so you might be
safe there...)
Second, as you already mentioned, you can't be sure how much flow each
pump is getting.
Third, in case of power outage completely closed loop will not siphon
water to the sump...
And finally, water in the overflow is loaded with air bubbles. In the
sump bubbles raise to the surface, go through baffles etc. In the setup
you are suggesting bubbles will go directly to the pump, thus creating
a lot of micro bubbles.

If you put your head to it, you certainly will be able to get this to
work, but completely closed loop will be easier and more reliable IMHO.

I hope this helps.
Yuriy

P.S. I'm a Quality Manager at work, therefore I'm trained to be
paranoid, so please bear with me if I'm going to far :)

[Pszemol]

"Croosh" > wrote in message oups.com...
> The idea of closed loop is to have a closed system that doesn't involve
> overflow. Most overflows are rated for certain flow rate and in most
> cases you'd want more circulation that they are designed for.

Yes, I agree - that is why I wrote about using the original overflow holes
in the bottom of the tank DIFFERENETLY than the original intend...
Could you please read my original post about using both holes drilled
in the bottom for drain pipes ?

> Depending on the type of organisms you are keeping, fro 58G tank you
> might want from flow rate from as low as 250 GPH to 1200GPH or even
> more than that. If your overflow is rated at 600GPH, even 10x tank
> turnover rate will max it out. (On the other hand, I have 1" ID
> overflow handling about 800-900GPH from QuietOne 4000, so you
> might be safe there...)

The maximum flow rate is limited by the diameter of the drain pipe.
Using both 1" pipes as drain was my idea for overpassing this obstacle.

> Second, as you already mentioned, you can't be sure how much flow
> each pump is getting.
> Third, in case of power outage completely closed loop will not siphon
> water to the sump...

Closed loop might be protected the same way as the return pipe:
with a small hole sucking air and breaking the syphon in the event
of power outage.

> And finally, water in the overflow is loaded with air bubbles. In the
> sump bubbles raise to the surface, go through baffles etc. In the setup
> you are suggesting bubbles will go directly to the pump, thus creating
> a lot of micro bubbles.

And this is something very important I have missed.
Thank you for this coment! This bubbles thing kills my 2nd idea :-))
But the 1st is still valid, and I do not see the weak point in this one.

> If you put your head to it, you certainly will be able to get this to
> work, but completely closed loop will be easier and more reliable IMHO.

:-))
Now I have to talk with my head and we might come up with something ;-)

> P.S. I'm a Quality Manager at work, therefore I'm trained to be
> paranoid, so please bear with me if I'm going to far :)

I appreciate your patience with me :-)

[Croosh]

Pszemol,
The first option is fine, but it's not a closed loop, just a double
overflow :-)
Now that I actually think about it, it will benefit from a partial
redundancy (two holes are better than one).

The only other reason I can see for separate closed loop is when for
any reason you need to shut the sump down, you'd still have half of
your waterflow. Some people run only 1/4 of their total flow through
the sump and 3/4 through closed loop.

Regards
Yuriy

[Pszemol]

"Croosh" > wrote in message oups.com...
> Pszemol,
> The first option is fine, but it's not a closed loop, just a double
> overflow :-)
> Now that I actually think about it, it will benefit from a partial
> redundancy (two holes are better than one).

It could have also two return pumps in the sump... :-)
One doing SQWD for example :-))

> The only other reason I can see for separate closed loop is when for
> any reason you need to shut the sump down, you'd still have half of
> your waterflow. Some people run only 1/4 of their total flow through
> the sump and 3/4 through closed loop.

But I have already learned my closed-loop idea would not work
since the drain pipe would collect air bubbles and the pump would
inject them into the display tank. Unless... I would lower my drain
pipe for the closed loop enough to avoid sucking air... hm...
Need to experiment a little :-)

[Wayne Sallee]

I have a 120 gallon AGA reef tank with 1,000gph going down
a built in overflow, and through a 1" bulkhead with no
problems whatsoever. You can easily put 1,000 gph through
a 1" bulkhead. The overflow are the old styl corner
overflows. I also trimmed the top of the overflow down a
little but lower to better handle the 1,000gph going over
the overflow. I tore out the left overflow, and have water
boiling up from the bottom there, and just use the right
overflow.

To read, how I have it plummed see
http://waynespets.com/skimmer.htm


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Pszemol wrote on 2/27/2006 12:03 AM:
> I am thinking about plumbing in my new 58 gallon reef ready tank.
> It is Oceanic, Reef Ready tank with overflow in the center back.
> 36"x18"x21"H. It has drilled two 1.75" holes for 1" bulkhead each.
>
> Originally it is designed to have one hole used for the drain
> pipe to the sump/wet-dry and the second for the return pipe...
> http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquariums/megaflow_demo.shtml
>
> I have read somewhere, that 1" drain pipe will allow for
> a maximum water flow of 600gph. I do not want to have any
> eye-sore powerheads inside but 600gph will not be enough...
>
> I am tinking about something else, but not sure if this will work.
>
> 1-st idea: to have two drain pipes going to the sump connected to
> bulkheads in the bottom and the return to be made with separate
> pipes going over the back wall from one or two pumps in the sump.
> For the returns I could use any U-shaped pipes (for example the
> SQWD return pipe pictured here (black u-shaped with diffuser):
> http://islandaquatics.com/product_detail.php?category_id=&product_id=24
>
> 2-nd idea: one drain pipe going to the sump, and normal return
> pump would pump water up over the back wall... like in the 1-st.
> But the second drain pipe would be looped back with the second
> pump, not going to the sump, doing closed-loop instead.
>
> I am not sure if the 2-nd idea would work - it could happend than water
> flow in both drain pipes would be unequal, and
> closed-loop pump could pump water faster than the pump in the
> sump working with a higher head... Anybody tried this before ?