Re: How Heavy is too Heavy?

[Bousch]

With all the variables, wood condition, age, termites. resting on what type
of block, if any, which way the floor joist lay compared to the tank stand,
etc, etc, It's actually a silly question to ask. The only way to know before
hand is pay to get a guess from a structural engineer.


"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)
>
>

[D&M]

We're looking at houses right now, sure makes me look at the floor joists
more closely. I calculated my tank at 1100lbs min loaded (water, glass, and
gravel). Lucky where I am right now, condo with concrete level floors. I've
always wondered what a mess 90g's of water makes....


"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)
>
>

[NetMax]

"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)

Opinions will vary, and the best comments you could get, would come from
those who wisely decline to comment ;~)

I use 60g as my threshold. Under 60g, my concern is still floor bounce
(I hate to see my tank jiggle forwards). At 60g, I'm at 100 lbs per
sq.ft (which seems reasonable). Over 60g (66-90g), it's often the same 6
sq.ft base, but a taller and heavier tank, so I exercise more caution.
Over 90g and I'm on concrete, over structural walls, perpendicular to
joists, and I'm adding a post (also because of floor bounce). JMO, use
your discretion or professional advice, hth.

NetMax

[Shane Kennedy]

you can use a little common sense calculations w/o the need of a
structual engineer
a gallon of water equals about 8 pounds
i have a 75 gallon aquarium w/ a 5'x1' footprint
75gals = ~600 lbs
i figure 3 200 pound men in stand next to one another in a 5'x1' area
w/o the floor caving in
so i'm safe

[SG]

In article >, ~Vicki ~ wrote:
>
>currently looking at homes. This will help me decide on either a slab
>built home or one with a crawl space.

You can support a 400 gal tank on the first floor of a house with a
basement and standard floor joists. You will need to support that tank
from the basement. But that is hardly difficult.

In most houses you can place a 50gal tank anywhere you want. Larger
then that and you need to start thinking about how the tank is placed
in relation to the structure of the house: perpendicular to the floor
joists, against an outside or supported wall. Additional support from
below may be required. This is all very general. Some houses cannot
support a 50gal properly. IE Netmax's 50 gal and floor bounce.

Again it all depends on the age of your house, construction method,
size of the tank, and desired placement of the tank. The proper
question to ask is: I want this size tank where can I put it?

[RedForeman ©®]

go get a yellow pages, look under engineer, find one that does structural
integrity evaluations, and give 'em a call... he'd be the only one that has
an education to help him answer...

our answers, while good intentions, could lead you down the wrong road...


"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)
>
>

[~Vicki ~]

There is no such thing as a "silly question" only the lack in asking.
Or so I tell my students.

We currently live in a 1940 rancher on a 12 in slab so I don't worry
about the weight of my 55 g. But that can change once we decide on a
new house. As any one who has ever bought a house knows, you hire an
inspector to look at the house before you sign the papers. If you are
buying a 100 year old house than it is reasonable to think that you
would need some extra support for the tank, just by virtue of the (our
last house was built in 1919 and I didn't feel safe with a 20g in there)
age. But if you buy a new home the wood is new and stronger.

Having said that it was still a good question and the answers were
great.

Vicki

[jduprie]

As you've said, there is no simple answer. My rule of thumb is that any tank
over 75 gal. gets a floor jack put under it. They only cost about $20, and
thats pretty cheap insurance. After the tank has been set up for a year or
so, I check the jacks to see if tehy're supporting any weight. If they're
not, I take them out. BTW - I set the floor jack up with just enough
pressure to keep it from falling over if it gets a light bump. That keeps me
from lifting the house off its foundation, and makes it easier to check the
jacks to see if the floor is settling....

good luck
--JD


"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

> There is no such thing as a "silly question" only the lack in asking.
> Or so I tell my students.

This is true, but what should have been said, it's silly to be asking us...
we're common people, some have more edumicashun than uthers... haha...

But truly, that's a very serious question, with serious ramifications...
which warrants asking the right person... a structural engineer... I've done
it, it's no big deal... Cost $25....

Honestly, you can ask anyone, and get any answer.... If you ask the right
person, you get the right answer...

[Paul Irwin]

If you are building new, it might cost very little to to create a big margin
of safety. I planned for a 150 gal tank in a new addition, and chose a steel
beam over a wooden one and added a couple of extra floor joists. I think the
additional costs were less than $100 and the tank is very stable.

"~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
...
> There is no such thing as a "silly question" only the lack in asking.
> Or so I tell my students.
>
> We currently live in a 1940 rancher on a 12 in slab so I don't worry
> about the weight of my 55 g. But that can change once we decide on a
> new house. As any one who has ever bought a house knows, you hire an
> inspector to look at the house before you sign the papers. If you are
> buying a 100 year old house than it is reasonable to think that you
> would need some extra support for the tank, just by virtue of the (our
> last house was built in 1919 and I didn't feel safe with a 20g in there)
> age. But if you buy a new home the wood is new and stronger.
>
> Having said that it was still a good question and the answers were
> great.
>
> Vicki
>

[Sunshyn]

"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)
>

Wow, wasn't expecting so many responses so quickly. Thanks.

I am currently renting the first floor of a Victorian style house built in
1887. The outer foundation is approx. 12-16" thick rough cut stone with a
few interior walls (also stone) dividing the basement into sections. I
can't see the floor because the basement ceiling is dropped and plastered
over. All I can see is parallel beam spaced approx. 5 feet apart supported
by 6"x6" cement pillars. On closer inspection I've now noticed that the
basement wall beneath the spot I had intended to place the tank is actually
more that 2 feet thick (stone.) So I'll probably be just fine.

I have not yet decided on the exact size of the tank I'm getting, somewhere
between 55 and 90. (The debate in my house rages on, as I too am guilty of
the conspiracy to buy fish that I knew would eventually outgrow their tank
and require a newer and bigger one...) I asked such a general question
because, although I am not too concerned about my current living
arrangement, I do plan to move within the next year or two, so I am
wondering what to look for in my next home.

Thanks again for all your suggestions. I don't know why it never occurred
to me to consult a structural engineer.

[NetMax]

"Shane Kennedy" > wrote in message
om...
> you can use a little common sense calculations w/o the need of a
> structual engineer
> a gallon of water equals about 8 pounds
> i have a 75 gallon aquarium w/ a 5'x1' footprint
> 75gals = ~600 lbs
> i figure 3 200 pound men in stand next to one another in a 5'x1' area
> w/o the floor caving in
> so i'm safe

Not to nit pick (but I can so I will), but water is closer to 9 lbs per
gallon, the weight of the tank was omitted, gravel & rocks are heavier
than water (or they would float ;~), and this is only a static load
calculation. If a floor can't hold 600 lbs, then the house should be
condemned. The bigger problem is the dynamic load. A tank installed in
the centre of a room will behave very differently from one against a
structural wall perpendicular to the floor joists. If you ever see a top
heavy 750 lb aquarium rock back & forth from foot traffic, you will have
a better sense of what kind of structural integrity I'm talking about.

cheers
NetMax

[NetMax]

"~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
...
> There is no such thing as a "silly question" only the lack in asking.
> Or so I tell my students.
>
<snip>
> But if you buy a new home the wood is new and stronger.

Here is a bit of trivia. Many of the newer homes are built from wood
which had been planted in rows and grown for cultivation. The structural
ratings have been adjusted as these modern trees are not as strong as the
wild trees, so for homes with similar condition of the wood, common
spacing and dimensions, it is more likely for the older house to be
stronger than the newer one ;~)

NetMax

>
> Vicki
>

[SG]

In article >, Marcus Fox wrote:
>
>In the UK, building regulations state a floor loading of no greater than 1.5
>kN/sq m

<snip>

>If you have a limit of 1500 N, you can have a maximum of (1500/9.807) 152.95
>litres for every square metre of tank base area.

The math does not work that way. The floor loading of 1.5 kN/sqm is a
design guideline for the static load of the whole floor. You can if
you wish put more of that load in one area then in another. Consider a
person carrying another. Given a generous footprint of 30cm X 30cm
according to the 1.5kN/sqm figure those two people can weight no more
then 135N == 14kg == 30lbs! Even one person is bigger then that.

At the same time the loading figure does not allow you to put the
whole load of a large room on a small footprint.

The 1.5 kN/sqm loading figure is a magical design number which assumes
an evenly distributed load to make the math easier.

[Bousch]

You should have mentioned that you are a school teacher and should have
known the answer before you asked. But like millions of other school
teachers you lack common sense.


"~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
...
> There is no such thing as a "silly question" only the lack in asking.
> Or so I tell my students.
>
> We currently live in a 1940 rancher on a 12 in slab so I don't worry
> about the weight of my 55 g. But that can change once we decide on a
> new house. As any one who has ever bought a house knows, you hire an
> inspector to look at the house before you sign the papers. If you are
> buying a 100 year old house than it is reasonable to think that you
> would need some extra support for the tank, just by virtue of the (our
> last house was built in 1919 and I didn't feel safe with a 20g in there)
> age. But if you buy a new home the wood is new and stronger.
>
> Having said that it was still a good question and the answers were
> great.
>
> Vicki
>

[Tedd]

"Bousch" > wrote in message
news:PDUTa.26240$Ne.13158@fed1read03...
> You should have mentioned that you are a school teacher and should have
> known the answer before you asked. But like millions of other school
> teachers you lack common sense.

what ever happened to Hank? him and this guy would have gotten along well, they
have so much in common.

[~Vicki ~]

Many houses built today use trusses of various shapes and forms for
their floor support. Also, consider that a 100 year old house has had
plenty of time to develop problems from rot, insects, etc. A thorough
inspection of any house is essential to avoid buying someone else's
problem.
I helped fix up a house built in the late 1800's once. The first/second
floor/ceiling was supported by beams that spanned the width of the house
- probably 20 feet. The beams were rough sawn 20x4s on 24" centers.
There was no bounce in that floor.
--
Jim Esler
>
>
>
>
I would like to see that house. We have friends who just finished the
renovations of their 1895 house. It is just wonderful. They use it as
a restaurant and it is very popular.

Vicki

[Hank Newmeyer]

"Bousch" > wrote in message news:<8pzTa.23440$Ne.6702@fed1read03>...
> "~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I didn't think it was a silly question. In fact it is a very good
> > question and I am looking forward to seeing some answers.
> >
> > Vicki
> >
> > currently looking at homes. This will help me decide on either a slab
> > built home or one with a crawl space.
> >
>
> But you can't get 'good' answers. If you go for a slab house will the usual
> 4" of concrete support the weight? Or do you need 6" where the aquarium
> goes?
>
> Crawl space? 16" centers or 18" centers. What kind of wood for the aquarium
> area? Parallel or cross joist?
>
> It's still a silly question. You need a strualal engineer to give an answer.

ISP Notified! ***Confirmed Troll Alert***

"Bousch" - if that is really your name, after all - you have trolled
this groups long enough and your posts are becoming abusive and
tiresome. I have notified you ISP of your abuse. I suggest you
desist in your derogatory remarks and apologize, ot face the
consequences of having your email account revoked.

PLEASE read the FAQ before posting next time!!!

Hank Newmeyer
=============
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

[coelacanth]

Hey--Hank is back! I suggest that everyone notify
their ISPs that they'll be hearing from him, just to
make things run more smoothly...

-coelacanth

"Hank Newmeyer" > wrote in message
om...
> "Bousch" > wrote in message
news:<8pzTa.23440$Ne.6702@fed1read03>...
> > "~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I didn't think it was a silly question. In fact it is a very good
> > > question and I am looking forward to seeing some answers.
> > >
> > > Vicki
> > >
> > > currently looking at homes. This will help me decide on either a slab
> > > built home or one with a crawl space.
> > >
> >
> > But you can't get 'good' answers. If you go for a slab house will the usual
> > 4" of concrete support the weight? Or do you need 6" where the aquarium
> > goes?
> >
> > Crawl space? 16" centers or 18" centers. What kind of wood for the aquarium
> > area? Parallel or cross joist?
> >
> > It's still a silly question. You need a strualal engineer to give an answer.
>
> ISP Notified! ***Confirmed Troll Alert***
>
> "Bousch" - if that is really your name, after all - you have trolled
> this groups long enough and your posts are becoming abusive and
> tiresome. I have notified you ISP of your abuse. I suggest you
> desist in your derogatory remarks and apologize, ot face the
> consequences of having your email account revoked.
>
> PLEASE read the FAQ before posting next time!!!
>
> Hank Newmeyer
> =============
> "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

[levittd]

"D&M" > wrote in message
...
> I've always wondered what a mess 90g's of water makes....
>

I had a 110gal break years ago. It's bad. Real bad. If it ever happens to
you, a shop-vac will be your new best friend.

levittd

[Jody Pellerin]

Weight sort of makes me nervous, we have a 20g tank which I estimate weighs
about 250lbs or so. Our house is about 17 years old, atleast the end where
the tank is. It's in our bedroom so the weight of the tank and everything
else in the house kind of freaks me out. I know, I'm probably being foolish
but it still kind of scares me.

"Doug W" <BUNGBOY17withoutanyspamandadsandothercrap@hotmail. com> wrote in
message ...
Also, remember if you pay a "structural engineer" to assess your situation,
they will most likely err on the side of caution to avoid a lawsuit,
probably err'ing on an extra few orders or magnitude these days due to the
litiguous society that we have become.

-Doug


"Sunshyn" > wrote in message
. net...
> Obviously the answer to this question will vary depending on the house
> but..... at what point do you all think that a tank is heavy enough to
> require added support to the floor (ie: bracing the floor from the
> basement?)
>
>




---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Donald Kerns]

Bill wrote:

> I assume that you're the self appointed news-group cop?
>
> "Hank Newmeyer" > wrote in message
>>
>> ISP Notified! ***Confirmed Troll Alert***
>>
>>"Bousch" - if that is really your name, after all - you have trolled
>> this groups long enough and your posts are becoming abusive and
>> tiresome. I have notified you ISP of your abuse. I suggest you
>> desist in your derogatory remarks and apologize, ot face the
>> consequences of having your email account revoked.

Something like that.

He was gone for a couple of months and the group descended into a
hellish pit of trolls, spam and commercial announcements. It lost
readership by the hundreds.

Now that he's back, the group has returned to its previous glory.

It's a thankless job, but he's stepped right up to it...

-D
--
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
- Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

[bassett]

I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish tank"
and what structural
modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you should
consider,before
rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. How heavies the bath Tub, plus
your weight.
Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..

bassett
>
> "Hank Newmeyer" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Bousch" > wrote in message
> news:<8pzTa.23440$Ne.6702@fed1read03>...
> > > "~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I didn't think it was a silly question. In fact it is a very good
> > > > question and I am looking forward to seeing some answers.
> > > >
> > > > Vicki
> > > >
> > > > currently looking at homes. This will help me decide on either a
slab
> > > > built home or one with a crawl space.
> > > >
> > >
> > > But you can't get 'good' answers. If you go for a slab house will the
> usual
> > > 4" of concrete support the weight? Or do you need 6" where the
aquarium
> > > goes?
> > >
> > > Crawl space? 16" centers or 18" centers. What kind of wood for the
> aquarium
> > > area? Parallel or cross joist?
> > >
> > > It's still a silly question. You need a strualal engineer to give an
> answer.
> >
> > ISP Notified! ***Confirmed Troll Alert***
> >
> > "Bousch" - if that is really your name, after all - you have trolled
> > this groups long enough and your posts are becoming abusive and
> > tiresome. I have notified you ISP of your abuse. I suggest you
> > desist in your derogatory remarks and apologize, ot face the
> > consequences of having your email account revoked.
> >
> > PLEASE read the FAQ before posting next time!!!
> >
> > Hank Newmeyer
> > =============
> > "The beatings will continue until morale improves."
>
>

[~Vicki ~]

I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish
tank" and what structural
modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you
should consider,before
rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. =A0 How heavies the bath
Tub, plus
your weight.
Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..
bassett
>
>
>
>
Oh this is rich!!! We had a king sized water bed till a few years ago.
LOL never even worried about it in the upstairs bedroom of our old 1929
town house. Gave it to nephew a few years ago and he uses it in his
moble home.

Thanks,
Vicki

[Donald Kerns]

~Vicki ~ wrote:

> Oh this is rich!!! We had a king sized water bed till a few years
> ago. LOL never even worried about it in the upstairs bedroom of our
> old 1929
> town house. Gave it to nephew a few years ago and he uses it in his
> moble home.
>

We had just bought a new house with a loft in it. I was worried about
putting a water bed in the loft because it wasn't "a real bedroom."

I asked the builder if it would be OK.

His reply...

"I *think* so. Tell ya what. Put the bed up there, fill it slowly and
listen for creaking noises..."

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[RedForeman ©®]

"bassett" > wrote in message
...
> I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish
tank"
> and what structural
> modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you
should
> consider,before
> rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. How heavies the bath Tub,
plus
> your weight.
> Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..
>
> bassett
> >

it's obvious that you've never been involved with building a house before,
because if you had, you would know they already have guidelines for
bathrooms, and laundry rooms, that detail where and how a tub/shower/Jacuzzi
can/should be laid out... They are almost always in either high integrity
areas, corners, load bearing walls, etc... for the specific reason, they'll
be heavier.... If you are building a house, and tell the architect that you
are wanting a 250g tank, he'll ask where do you want it... You say, in the
middle of that room... He'll laugh, and reinforce the floor... If you said
2nd floor, in the middle of the room.... he'll put alot of enforcement below
that floor and the floor below....

[Donald Kerns]

Pierre-Normand Houle wrote:

> "Donald Kerns" > wrote:
>
>> We had just bought a new house with a loft in it. I was worried about
>> putting a water bed in the loft because it wasn't "a real bedroom."
>>
>> I asked the builder if it would be OK.
>>
>> His reply...
>>
>> "I think so. Tell ya what. Put the bed up there, fill it slowly and
>> listen for creaking noises..."
>
> Good idea. You might even want to actually lie down in the bed while
> it is being filled so you can hear these creaking noises even better.

Well... one of the advantages to water beds is they don't make the
"creaking sounds" ;-)

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Jim Esler]

bassett wrote:
>
> I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish tank"
> and what structural
> modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you should
> consider,before
> rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. How heavies the bath Tub, plus
> your weight.
> Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..

I know of several houses that had significant problems because the floor
under the refrigerator was not properly reinforced. And a waterbed
spreads its weight out over a larger area and more joists than most
tanks.
--
Jim Esler

[Marcus Fox]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
>
> "bassett" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish
> tank"
> > and what structural
> > modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you
> should
> > consider,before
> > rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. How heavies the bath Tub,
> plus
> > your weight.
> > Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..
> >
> > bassett
> > >
>
> it's obvious that you've never been involved with building a house before,
> because if you had, you would know they already have guidelines for
> bathrooms, and laundry rooms, that detail where and how a
tub/shower/Jacuzzi
> can/should be laid out... They are almost always in either high integrity
> areas, corners, load bearing walls, etc... for the specific reason,
they'll
> be heavier.... If you are building a house, and tell the architect that
you
> are wanting a 250g tank, he'll ask where do you want it... You say, in the
> middle of that room... He'll laugh, and reinforce the floor... If you said
> 2nd floor, in the middle of the room.... he'll put alot of enforcement
below
> that floor and the floor below....

No kidding! A full 250 would weigh over 2200 lbs.

Marcus

[bassett]

Actually I have built houses and renovated a few as well, Not that I am a
builder,
But weight distribution is the same the world over.. Tell me as you know so
much on the subject, perhaps you can list the number of suspended floors
that have failed, due to an over excess in weight.. You know the thing,
Bath tubs fitted with large overweight ladies,
or what about Piano's. I have a friend that collects up-right piano's , He
has about five of the things, in his lounge Room,,[please don't ask why'
we have done that ] House up on brick piers, with the normal timber joist
arrangement..
Another friend is also into fish, He has some 50 odd tanks in his tank room,
Timber house,
raised on Piers, nothing special.
My own little set-up, consists of a 3 bedroom place, up on brick piers
this is getting repetitive ] again all standard, two double water beds, a
double spy bath, Four foot fish tank in the Lounge room, in an Upright
Piano stand.. The sun room is 35 square metres
has a full size antique Snooker table , and a couple of six foot tanks..
and to date
nothing creaks or drops through the floor.. So really I think your talking a
load of Crap..

Love bassett..



RedForeman ©® > wrote in message

> > it's obvious that you've never been involved with building a house
before,
> because if you had, you would know they already have guidelines for
> bathrooms, and laundry rooms, that detail where and how a
tub/shower/Jacuzzi
> can/should be laid out... They are almost always in either high integrity
> areas, corners, load bearing walls, etc... for the specific reason,
they'll
> be heavier.... If you are building a house, and tell the architect that
you
> are wanting a 250g tank, he'll ask where do you want it... You say, in the
> middle of that room... He'll laugh, and reinforce the floor... If you said
> 2nd floor, in the middle of the room.... he'll put alot of enforcement
below
> that floor and the floor below....
>
>
> "bassett" > wrote in message
> > I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish
> tank"
> > and what structural
> > modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you
> should
> > consider,before
> > rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. How heavies the bath Tub,
> plus
> > your weight.
> > Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..
> >
> > bassett
> > >
>

[bassett]

Perhaps you should name the builder, so-as we can avoid him..

Jim Esler > wrote in message ...
> I know of several houses that had significant problems because the floor
> under the refrigerator was not properly reinforced. And a waterbed
> spreads its weight out over a larger area and more joists than most
> tanks.
> --
> Jim Esler

> bassett wrote:
> >
> > I had to laugh about your ideas concerning the weight of "said fish
tank"
> > and what structural
> > modifications will be needed. I have just one small question that you
should
> > consider,before
> > rewriting the Laws of Architectural design. How heavies the bath Tub,
plus
> > your weight.
> > Also ,,Do you own a Water bed..
>

[bassett]

Are you talking American gallons or Imperial gallons.

Marcus Fox > wrote in message

> No kidding! A full 250g would weigh over 2200 lbs.
>
> Marcus
>
>

[Eric Schreiber]

(Hank Newmeyer) wrote:

>ISP Notified! ***Confirmed Troll Alert***

Shall we go through the tiresome exercise, once again, of comparing
*your* ratio of on-topic posts to moronic "ISP notified" rants?


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Brian C. Attwood]

fisherman wrote:
> (SG) wrote in message >...
> It isn't the WEIGHT of an aquarium or a waterbed that you need to
> consider, it's the AREA that the weight is spread over.

I don't think pounds per square foot tells the whole story. For
example, I might say that if I stand on my toes I can easily exert 400
lb/ft2 and not fall through the second floor of my apartment. It would
take a fairly tall aquarium to exert that amount of pressure, so I can
safely say that any size aquarium I can find should work. However, if
you take it to the extreme I really doubt my 120 ft2 bedroom can support
48000 lbs of force distributed over the entire floor. The fact that a
broader load spans more supporting joists is probably more important
than the decreased pressure.

[Marcus Fox]

"bassett" > wrote in message
...
> Are you talking American gallons or Imperial gallons.

Even though I'm in the UK it is standard practice to refer to aquarium tank
size in US liquid gallons. At least in this newsgroup.

Marcus

[SG]

In article >, Marcus Fox wrote:
>
>That's why the UK building regs gave a figure of 1500 N/m2 for joist
>loading, and not in cm2, or in2

Nah. It is because N/m2 is a convinient unit.

[bassett]

RedForeman ©® > wrote in message
> I've already explained that to compare apples to apples, you would have to
> put 4 waterbeds on top of each other to replicate the weight distribution
of
> a 48" X 24" x 24" tank, filled with gravel, water and misc, would weigh
WAY
> more than a single waterbed, then maybe you should pick up a basic math
book
> or even some physics books and see how that houses are able to withstand
> 100lbs per square foot or so, and a tank would be nearly 250lbs per square
> foot...
>
Concrete slabs have to be a minimum thickness of 9 inches, with braceing
beams of
12 inches wide by 15 inches deep, every twenty feet accross the slab., or
concrete piles
into the subsoil.
And suspended floors, are on 4 by 5 bearers every 6 foot apart with 4 by 2
beams every 18
inches, The flooring over this would be compressed board or T & G floor
boards. My place
at present is considered small Total floor area would be around 150 square
metres, or
there abouts single story. But the foundations are the same as a 3 story
home, and some of them are massave.
As for water beds , I have two, a queen size 6 ft wide by 7ft long by 9
inches deep..and the other one is a bit bigger. and that size is the water
area bladder size. But your right the weight is distributed over a larger
area. There is a formula to work out the total Gallons,
But I have forgotten how it works..

> Here in the states, we've had several summertime disasters where too many
> people in a small place has caused the floor to collapse... porches to
> collapse during parties, dances in gymnasiums falling thru the floor,
etc...
> but I'm sure you'll say that those examples are different, and of course,
> I'm wrong... I'm a dumbass, and don't know anything....
>
Not at all, we in OZ have had cases where veranda's have collaped with
disastrous
results. But as our population is no-where near as large as yours, these
instances are
few and far , or the reporting is.. Plus I think that our building codes
and regulations
are some-what stiffer. If there not, I feel sorry for you, as some of our
standards are just about impossible to comply with..
>
> So I guess I'll tell my buddy who owns a construction company, and his
buddy
> the civil engineer who examines houses, and in fact examined another
friends
> house before he put a 125g on a bottom floor and STILL had to reinforce
the
> floor.. why? because there's ALWAYS the risk....
>
> Anyway, I didn't ask for you to give all these details that don't prove
> anything, all that just says you don't understand the concept of weight
> distribution.... all those things spread out over the whole room don't add
> up to 1/10th of the weight of a 125g+ tank, and the waterbeds, not even
> 1/5th, and only if you stacked 4 on top of it would you be getting
close....
> think about it, it's not the amount of water, it's the weight and it's
> footprint... the more weight in one spot is what structural integrity is
all
> about.... go learn about it...

Firstly a Imperial gallon of water has a cubic area of approximately
six inches [6 x 6 x 6 ]
The weight of an Imperial gallon is 10 pounds, but the displacement of
water in a tank
rated at 125 gallons, your 4ft tank [48 x 24 x 24] is incorrect due to the
displacement area of the Rocks,gravel, fish, and what ever else, resides
in said tank. While I don,t want to split hairs here, you will agree I,m
sure that a Reef set-up would have 20 to 25% of the volume
taken up with a rock // coral wall or undetermined area and weight.
So the water bed discribed above [queen size] would hold approximately
1000 gallons, which is surprising, and considerably heaver then I would have
thought.
I could say "End of Lesson" but I won.t..

[i]
> > So really I think your talking a
> > load of Crap..
>
> Now that I realize I'm wasting my time tutoring you, I think I'll just end
> this 'crap' here, because you'll never understand when you are wrong,
you'll
> not be able to admit you are wrong, so as I see it, You are right...
>
Never wrong [both], just a differance of opinion.

Regards bassett

[bassett]

So that would mean that a 125 gallon tank , would in fact only be a 32
gallon tank.
working on the assumption that one American gallon is really only 1.2
litres or one quart Imperial, This gets more confusing the further we get
into it,,,
So how heavy is the fat lady that sits on the water bed, and what's the
water content.


Marcus Fox > wrote in message
>Even though I'm in the UK it is standard practice to refer to aquarium tank
> size in US liquid gallons. At least in this newsgroup.

> "bassett" > wrote in message
> > Are you talking American gallons or Imperial gallons.
>
> >
> Marcus
>
>

[Marcus Fox]

"bassett" > wrote in message
...
> So that would mean that a 125 gallon tank , would in fact only be a 32
> gallon tank.
> working on the assumption that one American gallon is really only 1.2
> litres or one quart Imperial, This gets more confusing the further we get
> into it,,,
> So how heavy is the fat lady that sits on the water bed, and what's the
> water content.

An American gallon is 1.2 UK (imperial) gallons, and 3.79 litres or 3.33 UK
(imperial) quart, not 1.2 litres or one imperial quart. So 125 US gallons is
104 UK gallons, not 32!

Marcus

[Christina Marie Thompson]

mid posted

bassett wrote:

>So that would mean that a 125 gallon tank , would in fact only be a 32
>gallon tank.
>working on the assumption that one American gallon is really only 1.2
>litres or one quart Imperial, This gets more confusing the further we get
>into it,,,
>
direct from a conversion chart for international travelers:
1 American gallon = 0.832 Imperial gallon
1 American gallon = 3.785 litres
1 Imperial gallon = 4.546 litres
1 kilogram = 2.204 lbs.

from memory of physics class (is this correct?):
1 litre of water = 1 kilogram

therefore:
1 gallon of water = 8.34214 lbs. = 3.785 kilograms

So, to find the weight of your tank, multiply this figure (lbs. or
kg, whichever you are more used to) by the volume of your tank then add
in the weight of the tank itself, the stand, all the equipment, and the
decorations. And if you will have large fish in it, add something for
them, too. (Small fish are probably negligible weight in regards to the
infinitesimal water volume they'll displace, but large fish do weigh
more than the measurable water volume they will displace.) This is how
much it will weigh fully set up.

To find the force exerted on your floor, measure the area of the
stand which will actually be in contact with the floor. Divide the
weight by this area and you will have the force. (I forget the units of
force. I believe it's Newtons in metric, but don't remember it's g/cm2
equivalent. I don't believe I ever learned the English system unit name
because science classes are the only place we crazy Americans use the
metric system.)

Anyway, if it is a solid piece of wood or whatever which is
contacting the floor, the area will simply be the length X the width and
will be a fairly large figure. But if your stand is like the metal one
my parents bought back in the 70's, and has little legs which are
actually the only part in contact with the floor, this will be a very
small figure. My parents' old stand probably only had a grand total of 4
sq. in. touching the floor, so even though it was only a 10 gallon tank,
the force exerted on the floor was huge! (I'm not going to take the time
to calculate this figure now, but I remember the apparently permanent
dents in the brand new plush carpets in the brand new house we lived in
for a couple of years.)

Christina Thompson

--
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion.
--Dylan Thomas

[Pierre-Normand Houle]

"Marcus Fox" > wrote in message
...

> An American gallon is 1.2 UK (imperial) gallons, and 3.79 litres or 3.33 UK
> (imperial) quart, not 1.2 litres or one imperial quart. So 125 US gallons is
> 104 UK gallons, not 32!

Of course, you meant to say that one Imperial gallon is 1.2 American gallon.
One American gallon is thus 0.832 Imperial gallon.

[fisherman]

"Brian C. Attwood" > wrote in message >...
> fisherman wrote:
> > (SG) wrote in message >...
> > It isn't the WEIGHT of an aquarium or a waterbed that you need to
> > consider, it's the AREA that the weight is spread over.
>
> I don't think pounds per square foot tells the whole story. For
> example, I might say that if I stand on my toes I can easily exert 400
> lb/ft2 and not fall through the second floor of my apartment. It would
> take a fairly tall aquarium to exert that amount of pressure, so I can
> safely say that any size aquarium I can find should work. However, if
> you take it to the extreme I really doubt my 120 ft2 bedroom can support
> 48000 lbs of force distributed over the entire floor. The fact that a
> broader load spans more supporting joists is probably more important
> than the decreased pressure.

Brian, there is no difference in loading on the floor between 48000
lbs of force distributed over 120 sq ft, 24000 lbs distributed over 60
sq ft, or 400 lbs distributed over one sq ft. They all translate into
400 lbs per sq ft of loading. Floor bearing weights are expressed in
lbs per sq ft, not in terms of "the floor will support this much
weight on one joist, this much on two, and this much on ten". The
number of joists determines the load bearing capacity (in lbs per sq
ft) of the floor as a whole. If you have "something" that exerts 400
lbs per sq ft of static weight, and the floor is rated at 600 lbs per
sq ft, you can safely set that "something" anywhere on the floor. The
number of joists supporting the floor determines what the floor
bearing weight is - but they are not a major factor in positioning
something like an aquarium as long as that floor bearing weight is not
exceeded and the integrity of the floor is not compromised.

Is that the "whole story". Not really. For example, it could be
argued that most aquariums have moving water. That means that they
are actually not exerting a constant, static load but one that is
changing. In the case of aquariums that would be found in a home,
that change usually would not be enough to be concerned about. But
for the sake of argument, if you had an aquarium that weighed 48000
lbs on a surface of 120 sq ft, a dynamic shift of that load would
result in periods of time where x number of lbs are being supported by
y number of sq ft. If the x divided by y exceeded the floor bearing
weight, it could result in the floor collapsing at some point in time.

Floor bearing weight is floor bearing weight no matter how you look at
it. But there are factors such as dynamic loading, lateral stresses,
and many others that have the ability to change the load a given
object exerts at any one time, possibly to the point of structural
failure over time. And there are many other factors such as humidity,
termites, etc etc etc that are constantly at work changing the floor
bearing weight of the wood in the floor itself. I'm not suggesting
that all, or for that matter, any of these factors should be ignored.
But folks trying to make a decision regarding their ability to place x
amount of weight in a specific location need a sound basis on which to
make that decision. Floor bearing weights and loads expressed in lbs
per sq ft (or their metric equivalents) are a sound basis. In extreme
cases, I have even heard of folks using hydraulic jacks or reinforcing
floors with steel beams just to be sure there are no surprises.

[Brian C. Attwood]

fisherman wrote:
> "Brian C. Attwood" > wrote in message >...
>>I don't think pounds per square foot tells the whole story. For
>>example, I might say that if I stand on my toes I can easily exert 400
>>lb/ft2 and not fall through the second floor of my apartment. It would
>>take a fairly tall aquarium to exert that amount of pressure, so I can
>>safely say that any size aquarium I can find should work. However, if
>>you take it to the extreme I really doubt my 120 ft2 bedroom can support
>>48000 lbs of force distributed over the entire floor. The fact that a
>>broader load spans more supporting joists is probably more important
>>than the decreased pressure.
>
>
> Brian, there is no difference in loading on the floor between 48000
> lbs of force distributed over 120 sq ft, 24000 lbs distributed over 60
> sq ft, or 400 lbs distributed over one sq ft. They all translate into
> 400 lbs per sq ft of loading. Floor bearing weights are expressed in
> lbs per sq ft, not in terms of "the floor will support this much
> weight on one joist, this much on two, and this much on ten". The
> number of joists determines the load bearing capacity (in lbs per sq
> ft) of the floor as a whole. If you have "something" that exerts 400
> lbs per sq ft of static weight, and the floor is rated at 600 lbs per
> sq ft, you can safely set that "something" anywhere on the floor. The
> number of joists supporting the floor determines what the floor
> bearing weight is - but they are not a major factor in positioning
> something like an aquarium as long as that floor bearing weight is not
> exceeded and the integrity of the floor is not compromised.
>

I think you missed my point. I was not talking of building codes, etc.
I was trying to point out the fallacy in using the pressure exerted by
a smaller load in order to extrapolate to a larger loadin regards to
safety. I think that you would agree that there actually is a
difference between a 120 sqft room with one 400 lb load over a sqft and
48000 lbs over the whole floor. While the pressure is the same on the
subflooring, the total force on the joists will be much greater. If I
really get up on my toes I can probably produce 1000 lbs per sqft and
not fall through the floor. Do you think my bedroom is designed to
support 120000 lbs of force?

I guess my point is best illustrated by that balcony collapse in
Chicago. One person by themselves did not exert enough pressure to
punch through the decking or force to cause a more general collapse.
However when they were packed in shoulder to shoulder it could not
handle the total load. A floor is probably designed to support local
loads that exert pressures greater than the average load bearing
capacity of the floor as a whole. Thus just because one can stand on
one foot and not fall through the floor, does not mean that one can fill
that room with 200 gal aquariums.

[Marcus Fox]

> To find the force exerted on your floor, measure the area of the
> stand which will actually be in contact with the floor. Divide the
> weight by this area and you will have the force. (I forget the units of
> force. I believe it's Newtons in metric, but don't remember it's g/cm2
> equivalent. I don't believe I ever learned the English system unit name
> because science classes are the only place we crazy Americans use the
> metric system.)

Newtons are the units of force, dependant on gravity. Force = mass x
acceleration, so that's kilograms x gravitational potential, which is 9.807
m/s

Since gravity is fairly constant, we can use kilograms or newtons to
describe the force exerted on an object by it's weight.

An interesting fact, since gravity or gravitational potential is determined
by the distance to the centre of mass, and the Earth not being a perfect
sphere, gravity at the equator (sea level) differs by 0.5% from that at the
poles. But for the purposes of calculation, 9.807 is the figure given in our
data books.

Marcus

[fisherman]

> Do you think my bedroom is designed to
> support 120000 lbs of force?

> I guess my point is best illustrated by that balcony collapse in
> Chicago. One person by themselves did not exert enough pressure to
> punch through the decking or force to cause a more general collapse.
> However when they were packed in shoulder to shoulder it could not
> handle the total load. A floor is probably designed to support local
> loads that exert pressures greater than the average load bearing
> capacity of the floor as a whole. Thus just because one can stand on
> one foot and not fall through the floor, does not mean that one can fill
> that room with 200 gal aquariums.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that floor bearing weights
are not the WHOLE story and I would certainly agree. In fact, I think
your point is that since floor bearing weights are only part of the
overall structural strength, they should be considered only within a
"window" of total dead weight. And again, I agree. I have no idea if
your bedroom (or mine or anyone's) would support 120000 lbs of dead
weight or not. But the answer to that question would go beyond floor
bearing weight alone. The collapse of the balcony is a good example.
It is, I think, unlikely that the FLOORING of the balcony collapsed as
the result of the people standing on it. What is more likely is that
the support structure holding the balcony collapsed as a result of
exceeding its ability to support the suspended load.

In any event, I'm sure we both agree that these are extreme examples
that have little practical value in helping folks determine whether
they can safely set up an aquarium! And in that context, I think load
relative to floor bearing weight limits offers a practical guide.