Re: anaerobic filter after long power out ;(

[Iain Miller]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> Help help! I have searched google groups but can't find a useful
> thread.
>
> The power went out at 2am. I got up at 7am and started tending to
> my fish. Power came back at 3.30pm, after 13.5 hours out.
>
> My 2ft tank smells a bit odd, sort of cheesy, but all the fish
> seem fine (and have done throughout, although the dark confused them).
>
> My 4ft tank is another story. All the fish except catfish started
> hanging at the top, so during the outage I did two 10% water changes
> at intermittent periods - I didn't like to do more as our heating
> needs electricity and the water was stone cold... although I tried
> to mix it up well, and put it in a warm place for a while before
> use! Best idea I had! I also blew down an air line just under the
> water surface for ten minutes a couple of times, to try to get the
> water moving. Didn't know what else to try apart from keeping the
> room cool and shaded as its 33C outside. What else could I have done?
>
> Anyway, the power returned and the air pump started bubbling away.
> I plugged the filter back in and caught the first few litres, because
> they are always full of crud after it's been turned off. Then I
> left it, but the smell of sulphur dioxide built up to overpowering
> within a few minutes. Ten minutes later and there is no smell, but
> the water looks cloudy with white bits, and when I take it away
> in water changes, it's actually greenish. I did another 10% water
> change. All the fish seem ok, but I'm worried that the filter is
> compromised and a) it will be poisoning them until it recovers
> and b) the tank will need cycling again?
>
> I'd only just changed the filter media in the small tank so I'm not
> sure I can use it to seed the big tank. Can't really move fish to the
> small tank as it's fully stocked and a far lower pH.
>
> Any ideas apart from keeping an eye on things? Is there an additive
> I can get to help the tank along, or some intervention I can take?
>
> How long does it take before it stops chucking out sulphur dioxide?
>
> Will my tank need to cycle again?
>
> I was meant to go out for the day and instead I've spent all day
> anxiously watching fishes and phoning the electricity company. :(
>
> Other than that everything is fine(!) Well, fingers crossed that
> the fish are tough enough to withstand it.

All good fun stuff no doubt.......

If I remember correctly you have an Eheim Ecco cannister. For future
reference, if a power outage goes on for more than 2 hours then the thing to
do is to take the lid of the cannister and periodically change the water in
it with water from the tank. All you need to do is to give the bacteria in
the cannister a supply of oxygenated water. Its worth emptying the supply &
return hoses as well. What has happened is that the filter has gone
Anaerobic because of a lack of oxygenated water.

Not sure how the Ecco is designed but this has set me thinking as to what I
might do under similar circumstances with my Eheim Pro cannisters

I think another easy option would be to find some buckets and just fill each
one with tank water and then put the individual filter media baskets in
them - just covered with tank water.....that ought to be enough to keep most
of the bacteria alive. Maybe give them a stir occasionally.

Of course they will die back a bit through a lack of ammonia/Nitrite but not
as quickly as they will through suffocation (You murdering woman (!_ Do you
have ANY idea how many billions of helpless little bacteria you suffocated
last night?????!!!) ;-)

The sulphur dioxide should stop fairly quickly - in fact you probably
flushed most of it out. Odds are the bacteria in the filter have been pretty
badly compromised but bear in mind they double every 15 hours and there are
tons of them in the actual tank itself so it definitly should not be a
complete new cycle. A helping hand from some of the filter media from the
small tank couldn't hurt - just don't compromise that tank in the process!
I'd watch your Ammonia & Nitritres for a few days & change water as
necessary.

On the subject of being able to heat water - this would obviously be much
more of a problem in the winter - maybe consider having a small camping
stove handy as part of your emergency kit - they don't cost huge amounts &
would be enough to boil a few pints of water (which when added to bucket of
cold water would be enough to get it warm enough to go in the tank). Added
bonus would be the continuing ability to make tea!

good luck, keep us posted,

I

[Flash Wilson]

Hi Iain, thanks for answering:

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:46:16 +0100, Iain Miller > wrote:
>"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
>> The power went out at 2am. I got up at 7am and started tending to
>> my fish. Power came back at 3.30pm, after 13.5 hours out.
>
>If I remember correctly you have an Eheim Ecco cannister. For future

Sorry, I should have said. I assumed people remembered my rants that
the filter wouldn't start - for I have a Fluval 204 cannister and it
doesn't like getting up in the morning!

>reference, if a power outage goes on for more than 2 hours then the thing to
>do is to take the lid of the cannister and periodically change the water in
>it with water from the tank. All you need to do is to give the bacteria in
>the cannister a supply of oxygenated water. Its worth emptying the supply &
>return hoses as well. What has happened is that the filter has gone
>Anaerobic because of a lack of oxygenated water.

I hadn't thought about that! Good idea. The filter in my Juwel tank, where
it is inbuilt, appears ok. The filter in the external cannister wasn't.

Unfortunately by the time I awoke the power had been out for 5.5 hours
already, so things were already going wrong - but that's very good advice
for future. I intend to write this up for my fish site, along with what
happened afterwards, and I'll include your advice (and from the other
post I received!)

>I think another easy option would be to find some buckets and just fill each
>one with tank water and then put the individual filter media baskets in
>them - just covered with tank water.....that ought to be enough to keep most
>of the bacteria alive. Maybe give them a stir occasionally.

Also my filter being dodgy I didn't want to stop it when I can't always
get it started on my own. Needs a man to pump the primer while my hand
is hovering over the power switch! But it's worth trying to save the
filter in circumstances like these, of course.

>(You murdering woman (!_ Do you
>have ANY idea how many billions of helpless little bacteria you suffocated
>last night?????!!!) ;-)

And me a vegetarian!

>The sulphur dioxide should stop fairly quickly - in fact you probably
>flushed most of it out. Odds are the bacteria in the filter have been pretty
>badly compromised but bear in mind they double every 15 hours and there are
>tons of them in the actual tank itself so it definitly should not be a
>complete new cycle. A helping hand from some of the filter media from the
>small tank couldn't hurt - just don't compromise that tank in the process!

Well I'd changed the floss, and it is squares of sponge tailored to
fit, so it might be tricky. I've added my nitrazorb though to try to
keep ammonia and nitrites down overnight. The cloud is clearing (although
as I use carbon that's no surprise) but the fish are flashing a bit,
especially my clown loaches.

>I'd watch your Ammonia & Nitritres for a few days & change water as
>necessary.

Thanks - I will, and the nitrazorb means I can go to bed with a clear
conscience!

>On the subject of being able to heat water - this would obviously be much
>more of a problem in the winter - maybe consider having a small camping
>stove handy as part of your emergency kit - they don't cost huge amounts &
>would be enough to boil a few pints of water (which when added to bucket of
>cold water would be enough to get it warm enough to go in the tank). Added
>bonus would be the continuing ability to make tea!

Yeeees. Next time I'll draw some water out MUCH earlier. On a sunny day
like this it should have warmed up quickish. A friend with a pond said
her fish were dying so it was hot enough to warm her water :(

>good luck, keep us posted,

Thanks - am and will! Much appreciated.

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm an advocate of sex before marriage.
Otherwise I wouldn't have had any at all."

[Flash Wilson]

Hi, thanks very much for the response:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:20:44 GMT, SG > wrote:
>In article >, Flash Wilson wrote:
>>
>>Will my tank need to cycle again?
>
>Probably, but just a small one. As the fish are still alive, there was
>probably enough oxygen in the tank to keep some bacteria alive in the
>substrate etc.

Aye, I hope so. As I said in another post, the in-tank filter in the
smaller tank fared fine, so tank water is probably oxygenated enough
to survive a while.

>The folllowing is probably what you wanted to know a few hours ago.

Aye :( Still - thanks very much, and I hope someone can find it in
Google when they need it!

>If you power has been out for an undertermined time, it is probably a
>good idea to rince the filter media and leave it out in the air. This
>will kill any anerobic bacteria that formed. Rince out the filter
>media again before putting it back in the filter. This should limit
>the ammonia spike.

This was definitely what I needed, since it was over 5 hours out
before I woke up and realised. I didn't know to do this, and wish
I had. Great advice, thanks!

>Other power outage related issues are cold, ammonia/nitrite buildup,
>and gas exchange. The cold is probably the least of your concerns
>unless it get very cold. Fish are cold blooded and most will not
>notice the cooler temps. The fish will simply slow down in the colder
>water. Although a blanket around the tank will keep the heater from
>working too hard when the power comes back on.

Sure. It was a sunny day, so keeping the tank cool is the issue right now!
They reckon the record for hottest temperature measured in the UK will
be broken this week....

>Because the filters are running I would not feed the fish to reduce
>ammonia/nitrite buildup. The ammonia will rise somewhat, but it should
>not be a huge problem. An ammonia test kit is a great thing to have in
>this situation. Change the water as necessary.

Ah yes - I had already decided not to feed today. Luckily, they
were fed yesterday. They have a couple of fasting days in the week!

>The gas exchange is the biggest problem. As noted the fish were
>"gasping" probably due to lack of oxygen. A battery powered air pump
>is a great thing to have in this situation. A battery powered water
>pump would work just as well if not better, but I don't know of any

Sure - I don't have one, I'll investigate cost.

>made for aquariums. Another option is to syphon off water and mix by
>hand. Dumping water between two buckets should stir it up nicely. This
>has the advantage that water does not need to be heated.

Now why didn't I think of that?

Thanks very much for the sage advice. When I write this experience up
for my fish website, I'll be sure to include a "what I should have
done" and quote you.

Cheers,
--
Flash Wilson Restaurant, music and gig reviews,
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Visit The Gorge... Images of London, festivals & cars
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[SG]

In article >, NetMax wrote:
>
>SG, I found your comments very interesting and very logical (leaving
>nitrifying bacteria to air). Did you read this from a credible source?

Not really. What I wrote was hobbled together from many different
sources.

I did read once that the bacteria will go dormant but there was no
supporting evidence. It was stated as a well know fact. Maybe it is a
fact and the biologists just haven't told us. We do know that the
exact same bacteria found in our tanks is also found on plant
roots. Atleast the fact is repeated often enough. This bacteria must
survive drought conditions somehow. If the bacteria goes dormant, or
just a few happen to survive, I don't know.

Aside from that I feel confident in my advice wrt bacteria. Even if
all the good bacteria dies, it is better then anerobic hydrogen
sulfide produceing bacteria.

Some days I wish I was a biologist with grant money. I have a long
list of aquaria related experiments that would do the hobby wonders.

[Peter Ashby]

In article >,
"NetMax" > wrote:

> > A battery powered water
> > pump would work just as well if not better, but I don't know of any
> > made for aquariums.
> <snip>
>
> Research bilge pumps at marine/boating suppliers. They are basically
> powerheads which run on 12Vdc battery power. Easy to add to a wet/dry
> filter to pump water back up, as they use a screened intake. I haven't
> seen an in-line version for canister operation, but they might exist, or
> you would need to jerry-rig something.

Computer people recommend those living in houses with dodgy wiring buy
protected power supplies to A) smooth out those brownouts and B) provide
some power during cuts. Might be worth bearing in mind, at least for the
filters?

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

[Peter Ashby]

> SG wrote:
>
> > Some days I wish I was a biologist with grant money. I have a long
> > list of aquaria related experiments that would do the hobby wonders.

Every day I wish I was a biologist with grant money ;-(

Peter
uram added back since my server won't let me post to a group it doesn't
subscribe to on its own.

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:35:56 +0100, Peter Ashby
> wrote:
>Computer people recommend those living in houses with dodgy wiring buy
>protected power supplies to A) smooth out those brownouts and B) provide
>some power during cuts. Might be worth bearing in mind, at least for the
>filters?

I am a computer person, and you're right, but if we did buy a UPS
(Uninterruptible Power Supply for the non techs) it would most likely
find itself moved to the room with our servers in.

Plus the wiring would be freaky, because with small (domestic use)
ones you plug stuff into it, and the rooms with filters I'd like to
protect are too far apart for the same UPS. And I think they often
only have PC kettle-lead style sockets for hanging equipment, but
I could be wrong on that.

And it would take a fairly expensive UPS to cover the length of
power outage I had yesterday - over 13 hours - and huge batteries!
They are really tailored to short use, the time it takes to get
a generator going for example.

Not knocking the idea - just explaining that we've thought about
it before and this is what I've come up with. Plus of course I can't
afford one at the moment - otherwise I'd upgrade the Fluval 204 to
something more reliable...


--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm an advocate of sex before marriage.
Otherwise I wouldn't have had any at all."

[GuardedResponse]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:35:56 +0100, Peter Ashby
> > wrote:
> >Computer people recommend those living in houses with dodgy wiring buy
> >protected power supplies to A) smooth out those brownouts and B) provide
> >some power during cuts. Might be worth bearing in mind, at least for the
> >filters?
>
> I am a computer person, and you're right, but if we did buy a UPS
> (Uninterruptible Power Supply for the non techs) it would most likely
> find itself moved to the room with our servers in.
>
> Plus the wiring would be freaky, because with small (domestic use)
> ones you plug stuff into it, and the rooms with filters I'd like to
> protect are too far apart for the same UPS. And I think they often
> only have PC kettle-lead style sockets for hanging equipment, but
> I could be wrong on that.
>
> And it would take a fairly expensive UPS to cover the length of
> power outage I had yesterday - over 13 hours - and huge batteries!
> They are really tailored to short use, the time it takes to get
> a generator going for example.
>
> Not knocking the idea - just explaining that we've thought about
> it before and this is what I've come up with. Plus of course I can't
> afford one at the moment - otherwise I'd upgrade the Fluval 204 to
> something more reliable...
>
>
> --
> Flash Wilson

How about a small petrol powered generater? Can be had for a couple of
hundred quid from Makro (or could last time I was there). Handy for all
sorts of things during power cuts.

GR

[Peter Ashby]

In article >,
(Flash Wilson) wrote:

>
> Not knocking the idea - just explaining that we've thought about
> it before and this is what I've come up with. Plus of course I can't
> afford one at the moment - otherwise I'd upgrade the Fluval 204 to
> something more reliable...

I'm surprised there aren't battery powered filters available you could
swap your media into and away. Hmmm, forget I said that, wipe it from
google and I'll get designing.....

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:19:45 +0100, GuardedResponse
> wrote:
>
>"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
>> Not knocking the idea - just explaining that we've thought about
>> it before and this is what I've come up with. Plus of course I can't
>> afford one at the moment - otherwise I'd upgrade the Fluval 204 to
>> something more reliable...
>
>How about a small petrol powered generater? Can be had for a couple of
>hundred quid from Makro (or could last time I was there). Handy for all
>sorts of things during power cuts.

Not a bad idea, I don't know how you plug them in but presumably
you can wire them in so they power everything, rather than having
to plug in the specific things you want?

Are they noisy to run? I live in a very built-up area and I recall
one place where I worked got into trouble with the neighbours for
running a generator, of course that was a much bigger scale but
means my only knowledge of generators is "they are loud".

Good idea... I'll have to look into this, because if it would
run the computers too... I'm also looking into getting some kind
of device so if we lose power it makes a noise and wakes me if
it's night time. Although if we are out, that could annoy the
neighbours too! But if I'd known at 2am that we'd just lost power
the action I could have taken with the fish tanks is different
to 7am when I woke and found out that the filter was probably
already compromised.

Cheers,


--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Going abroad? Please take a photo of a pylon in another country!
www.gorge.org/pylons has 16 countries covered - only 176 to go!

[Flash Wilson]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:31:31 +0100, Peter Ashby
> wrote:
>In article >,
> (Flash Wilson) wrote:
>
>>
>> Not knocking the idea - just explaining that we've thought about
>> it before and this is what I've come up with. Plus of course I can't
>> afford one at the moment - otherwise I'd upgrade the Fluval 204 to
>> something more reliable...
>
>I'm surprised there aren't battery powered filters available you could
>swap your media into and away. Hmmm, forget I said that, wipe it from
>google and I'll get designing.....

Make it plug into the mains and alarm loudly when the power goes out
so it wakes a sleeping fishkeeper, and it would be ideal :)



--
. ( www.gorge.org/fish )
\_____)\_____ O
/--v____ __`< . o
)/

[Peter Ashby]

In article >,
(Flash Wilson) wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:31:31 +0100, Peter Ashby
> > wrote:
> >In article >,
> > (Flash Wilson) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Not knocking the idea - just explaining that we've thought about
> >> it before and this is what I've come up with. Plus of course I can't
> >> afford one at the moment - otherwise I'd upgrade the Fluval 204 to
> >> something more reliable...
> >
> >I'm surprised there aren't battery powered filters available you could
> >swap your media into and away. Hmmm, forget I said that, wipe it from
> >google and I'll get designing.....
>
> Make it plug into the mains and alarm loudly when the power goes out
> so it wakes a sleeping fishkeeper, and it would be ideal :)

Plug in not necessary, a stick on induction coil stuck next to the plug
should be enough.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

[Peter Ashby]

In article >,
(Flash Wilson) wrote:

> Good idea... I'll have to look into this, because if it would
> run the computers too... I'm also looking into getting some kind
> of device so if we lose power it makes a noise and wakes me if
> it's night time. Although if we are out, that could annoy the
> neighbours too! But if I'd known at 2am that we'd just lost power
> the action I could have taken with the fish tanks is different
> to 7am when I woke and found out that the filter was probably
> already compromised.

Hmmm, i'm sure radio/alarm clocks used to have such function. Probably
designed out as unnecessary now.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

[Donald Kerns]

GuardedResponse wrote:

> As far as noise goes - about the same as a petrol powered lawn mower.

Honda has a quieted version. 2 to 3 KW I think it runs in 55-60 dB...

That's low enough that you wouldn't mind too much having one in the room
with you (soundwise that is).

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[NetMax]

"Mike Wood" > wrote in message
...
> In message >
> (Flash Wilson) wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:35:56 +0100, Peter Ashby
> > > wrote:
<snip>
> The load for a tank should be a lot less than a computer.
<snip>>
> Spike.

Before going too far with the UPS idea, be aware that the AC motors used
on powerheads, canisters and powerfilters do not work well on the
trapazoidal waveform which comes out of the cheap UPSs, and the aquarium
stuff which should work well (lights & heaters) are not typically put on
back-up power.

NetMax

[Donald Kerns]

Phil wrote:

> I'd be concerned about running a carbon monoxide producing generator
> indoors.
>
> "Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
> ...
>> GuardedResponse wrote:
>>
>> > As far as noise goes - about the same as a petrol powered lawn
>> > mower.
>>
>> Honda has a quieted version. 2 to 3 KW I think it runs in 55-60 dB...
>>
>> That's low enough that you wouldn't mind too much having one in the
>> room with you (soundwise that is).
>

Um. Yeah. That's why I qualified the statement with (soundwise that
is...)

I've also seen fuel cell solutions (year or three ago on /.) but they
were really pricy.

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind