Very weak betta

[Renee]

Tester, the office Betta died a couple of weeks ago. We believe it to
simply be old age, as we'd had him for over a year and a half, and he
was looking pretty geezery - quite prehistoric, actually.

Anyhow, it was my responsibility to get a new office Betta, so I went
to the LFS. Naturally, unfortunately, all of the Bettas were in those
dreadful tiny plastic cups. I selected an attractive one who seemed
pretty frisky, and brought him home. There's no way I'd leave him in
that horrible cup, so I put him in a small (half-litre or so)
container until I could take him to work.

Well, he might be frisky, but he's either physically "challenged",
ill, injured, or - my hope - just incredibly out of shape from being
in a cup that's only 2/3 of his body length, for so long.

And so, I ask you experts.

He's having a VERY hard time swimming, because he seems to be
extremely weak in the back half. I've lowered the water level in the
container, since I don't want him to drown from being unable to reach
the surface. Swimming those 3 inches is still quite an effort for him
(but once he sees food up there, he *makes* that effort!). He rests
on the bottom of the container most of the time, and then works his
little pectoral fins like mad to get to the surface, after which he
sinks down, and rests on the curled-under lower half of his body and
tail, like a mermaid or something. He'll then uncurl and lie there
until the next surface visit.

So, has anyone experienced a Betta who has become atrophied from
excessive time in a teensy cup? Any chance of this being the problem?
Is it likely he'll gain strength and get back in shape? Or do I have
a permanently disabled Betta?

Renee
"Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow Children.'" -Peter Griffin

[NetMax]

"Renee" > wrote in message
news:3f35aa94.463043620@nntp...
<snip>
>
> So, has anyone experienced a Betta who has become atrophied from
> excessive time in a teensy cup? Any chance of this being the problem?
> Is it likely he'll gain strength and get back in shape? Or do I have
> a permanently disabled Betta?

You are making a presumption that the cup has anything to do with his
limited movement. Unless you are buying from an unscrupulous supplier,
the Betta has not been in the cup more than 2 or 3 weeks. I generally
order 1 week's worth of Bettas, so with bad luck, I might have one in a
cup for 2 weeks. Between feeding and W/Cs, they are a PITA in those cups
(which I also hate). After 2 weeks (I mark the lids), I'll release them
into an aquarium, where they usually sell very quickly. I've never
noticed any limited movement which lasted more than a few minutes. I
suspect you got a bad specimen. When shopping, look for bubbles in the
cup (they were feeling randy and started on a bubblenest). Now that you
have this one, wait a few days but call the LFS to let them know that you
will be returning him if there is no improvement (unless you wanted to
keep him). Warmer water, larger container, a few females, some
ditherfish, some bloodworms etc are all helpful in recovery (if there
will be a recovery). hth

NetMax

> Renee
> "Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow
Children.'" -Peter Griffin

[Flash Wilson]

Hi ppl,

I don't know if you noticed my previous post about cheering up my
Betta, but I got a new one about 10 days ago.

He looked ok, maybe a little thin in the shop, but was lively and
had made bubblenests.

Over the 10 days he didn't eat much although he appeared to like
Tetra Prima, Tetra Delica and Flake, taking some of each.

Still he seemed to wither away fast.

Last night I really tried to tempt him again, and he was lively
throughout, but (you've probably guessed where this is going) he
is a late fish this morning. The original one in his neighbouring
setup is fine still, if still a bit lazy!

So, to jump into the fray....

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:50:03 -0400, NetMax > wrote:
>"Renee" > wrote in message
>news:3f35aa94.463043620@nntp...
>>
>> So, has anyone experienced a Betta who has become atrophied from
>> excessive time in a teensy cup? Any chance of this being the problem?
>> Is it likely he'll gain strength and get back in shape? Or do I have
>> a permanently disabled Betta?

Mine atrophied because he wouldn't eat. How's yours on the food?

>You are making a presumption that the cup has anything to do with his
>limited movement. Unless you are buying from an unscrupulous supplier,
>the Betta has not been in the cup more than 2 or 3 weeks. I generally
>order 1 week's worth of Bettas, so with bad luck, I might have one in a
>cup for 2 weeks. Between feeding and W/Cs, they are a PITA in those cups
>(which I also hate). After 2 weeks (I mark the lids), I'll release them
>into an aquarium, where they usually sell very quickly.

This is an interesting point. With my first Betta I called the store,
they said they had some, and I turned up to buy one. They were still
in quarantine (although they knew me and let me have one on the grounds
I go easy cos he's still doped up, and watch for cloudy eye which they
often get over the few days after the ride - which he never developed).
Anyway - that was their advice. So they told me they quarantine for
about a week. After this they are on sale in a glass trough with
dividers, I suppose about 4"x 4" x 2" of water per fish. They do seem
fine and make nice nests. I wonder how long they are there?

> I've never
>noticed any limited movement which lasted more than a few minutes. I
>suspect you got a bad specimen. When shopping, look for bubbles in the
>cup (they were feeling randy and started on a bubblenest).

Mine was lively in the store (but not manic!) and had made a nice nest.
Based on this and aesthetic colours I chose him. He hasn't lasted
a fortnight - and the other has lasted since April so I know it's not
me! I'll do full water tests though in case something has been wrong.
His last water change was 2 days back and the same water went in the
other tank too, so I don't suspect that... It's hot here, but temp
in both tanks was 29C which isn't too bad.

>Warmer water, larger container, a few females, some
>ditherfish, some bloodworms etc are all helpful in recovery (if there
>will be a recovery). hth

I'm thinking about buying another. Alternatively are any other fish
suitable for a 2.25g, unfiltered (but with 1/2 - 1/3 changes weekly)
with plants and kept a constant temperature by an overhead lamp
(when the weather is cooler - right now my lamps are off...)

Any advice on what I could have done different or what I can try
in future?

I will also get some Bettamax when I return to the store.

Hope you can help!
Fl*sh (grins at Netmax)

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Looking for a UNIX/Apache Sysadmin, or help with your website?
Drop me an email! Available across London or working from home.

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
>
> I'm thinking about buying another. Alternatively are any other fish
> suitable for a 2.25g, unfiltered (but with 1/2 - 1/3 changes weekly)
> with plants and kept a constant temperature by an overhead lamp
> (when the weather is cooler - right now my lamps are off...)
>
> Any advice on what I could have done different or what I can try
> in future?
<snip>

The only thing I can add, besides trying to match the water's pH and gH,
is to watch the tank's daily temperature swing. Hot days & cool nights
play havoc with small aquariums. Check the temperature swing from early
AM (coolest) to late in the day (hottest). Positioning the tank in a
hallway, beside an exterior wall or near windows or heating/cooling ducts
can also be problematic. I also like to give them some shelter, which
for Bettas, is something floating like Frogbit (Limnobium Laevagatum),
and/or something with broad leaves near the surface.

The comment about QT'ing for a week and cloudy eyes is disconcerting.
Occasionally I've had bad batches which are suceptible to fungus, but
this is really the minority (maybe twice a year, usually in the winter).
If your LFS was getting this consistantly, I suspect someone in the loop
(breeder, trans-shipper, re-packer, local shipper) has not gotten a
handle on disease prevention or proper transport. I'd check the local
clubs to see if there are any breeders in your area.

NetMax

> --
> Flash Wilson
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Looking for a UNIX/Apache Sysadmin, or help with your website?
> Drop me an email! Available across London or working from home.

[Flash Wilson]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:59:13 -0400, NetMax > wrote:
>
>"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
><snip>
>> Any advice on what I could have done different or what I can try
>> in future?
><snip>
>
>The only thing I can add, besides trying to match the water's pH and gH,
>is to watch the tank's daily temperature swing. Hot days & cool nights
>play havoc with small aquariums. Check the temperature swing from early
>AM (coolest) to late in the day (hottest). Positioning the tank in a
>hallway, beside an exterior wall or near windows or heating/cooling ducts
>can also be problematic. I also like to give them some shelter, which
>for Bettas, is something floating like Frogbit (Limnobium Laevagatum),
>and/or something with broad leaves near the surface.

Thanks - the tanks are over my computer(!) which means they are fairly
constantly at 26C (I do check often throughout the day - particularly
when I bought the first one, because I didn't want to get it wrong.)
The recent hot weather has taken them to 29C at the moment and this is
pretty constant too. We are moving around the house trying to find
cool places to sleep at the moment :/

>The comment about QT'ing for a week and cloudy eyes is disconcerting.

Well at least they DO quarantine their fish I suppose...

>Occasionally I've had bad batches which are suceptible to fungus, but
>this is really the minority (maybe twice a year, usually in the winter).
>If your LFS was getting this consistantly, I suspect someone in the loop
>(breeder, trans-shipper, re-packer, local shipper) has not gotten a
>handle on disease prevention or proper transport. I'd check the local
>clubs to see if there are any breeders in your area.

Thanks, I don't know of any aquatic clubs in London or I'd try them...
anyone know of any clubs in the UK?

It would be much better to get them from someone I trust.

OTOH my favoured store has captive bred, very hardy cardinals.
But I digress.

Thanks - I'll look out for a betta breeder in the UK... that's a
great idea :)

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Looking for a UNIX/Apache Sysadmin, or help with your website?
Drop me an email! Available across London or working from home.

[Donald Kerns]

Flash Wilson wrote:

> Any advice on what I could have done different or what I can try
> in future?

Faith (High priestess of all things betta) over at
http://www.bettatalk.com/ recommends acclimating bettas over a several
hour period, replacing like 10% of the bag water every 20 minutes or
so.

Something to try...

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Renee]

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:50:03 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>You are making a presumption that the cup has anything to do with his
>limited movement. Unless you are buying from an unscrupulous supplier,
>the Betta has not been in the cup more than 2 or 3 weeks.

To be fair (to me!), I presented that as ONE option - disabled or
otherwise defective was also offered, but I rather hoped it was
something more passing.

I generally
>order 1 week's worth of Bettas, so with bad luck, I might have one in a
>cup for 2 weeks. Between feeding and W/Cs, they are a PITA in those cups
>(which I also hate). After 2 weeks (I mark the lids), I'll release them
>into an aquarium, where they usually sell very quickly. I've never
>noticed any limited movement which lasted more than a few minutes. I
>suspect you got a bad specimen.

It's possible. He actually does seem somewhat better today. Still not
"right", by far, but he's making more effort to swim around, and he's
flaring at the betta in the tank next to his. He eats vigorously, and
he seems a bit stronger. I'll start adding a little water (to make him
excercise more to get to the food) and see what happens.

When shopping, look for bubbles in the
>cup (they were feeling randy and started on a bubblenest). Now that you
>have this one, wait a few days but call the LFS to let them know that you
>will be returning him if there is no improvement (unless you wanted to
>keep him).

I'll keep him. Presumably, they'd just flush him if I took him back,
and I'll at least keep him in an appropriate tank and give him a life.
He might not be suitable for the work tank (it's deeper, and if he
never gets really good at swimming, I don't like to worry about him
not being able to make it to air), but I'll keep him around.

Plus, of course, he's a $3 fish, and it'll cost me $4 in transit fares
to trade him in. ;)

Warmer water, larger container, a few females, some
>ditherfish, some bloodworms etc are all helpful in recovery (if there
>will be a recovery). hth

We'll see what happens, for sure. Thanks very much for the input!

Renee
"Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow Children.'" -Peter Griffin

[NetMax]

"Renee" > wrote in message
news:3f36cade.536856696@nntp...
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:50:03 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
<snip>
> When shopping, look for bubbles in the
> >cup (they were feeling randy and started on a bubblenest). Now that
you
> >have this one, wait a few days but call the LFS to let them know that
you
> >will be returning him if there is no improvement (unless you wanted to
> >keep him).
>
> I'll keep him. Presumably, they'd just flush him if I took him back,
> and I'll at least keep him in an appropriate tank and give him a life.
> He might not be suitable for the work tank (it's deeper, and if he
> never gets really good at swimming, I don't like to worry about him
> not being able to make it to air), but I'll keep him around.

You might be right. I tell my customers to bring the Betta back if he
does not eat within 4 days. Then I put them into one of my plant tanks
where I keep female Bettas. Between the plant jungle & the females, most
males show a complete recovery ;~) I have no idea what other stores do.

> Plus, of course, he's a $3 fish, and it'll cost me $4 in transit fares
> to trade him in. ;)
>
> Warmer water, larger container, a few females, some
> >ditherfish, some bloodworms etc are all helpful in recovery (if there
> >will be a recovery). hth
>
> We'll see what happens, for sure. Thanks very much for the input!

Very welcome, best of luck with him.

NetMax

> Renee
> "Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow
Children.'" -Peter Griffin

[Josh]

I worked at a LFS, if you think those cups they keep them in are bad... you
should see how they are shipped... They are shipped in a very small sealed
bag with a medication in the water, but they are shipped in a small bag to
keep them from being too stressed out, and just to let you know bettas in
the wild live in about as much water to cover their bodies, so this is not
imhumaine at all to these wonderful little fish. and yes, that betta prolly
did die because of age as a betta life expantcy is 1-2 yrs.
"Renee" > wrote in message news:3f35aa94.463043620@nntp...
> Tester, the office Betta died a couple of weeks ago. We believe it to
> simply be old age, as we'd had him for over a year and a half, and he
> was looking pretty geezery - quite prehistoric, actually.
>
> Anyhow, it was my responsibility to get a new office Betta, so I went
> to the LFS. Naturally, unfortunately, all of the Bettas were in those
> dreadful tiny plastic cups. I selected an attractive one who seemed
> pretty frisky, and brought him home. There's no way I'd leave him in
> that horrible cup, so I put him in a small (half-litre or so)
> container until I could take him to work.
>
> Well, he might be frisky, but he's either physically "challenged",
> ill, injured, or - my hope - just incredibly out of shape from being
> in a cup that's only 2/3 of his body length, for so long.
>
> And so, I ask you experts.
>
> He's having a VERY hard time swimming, because he seems to be
> extremely weak in the back half. I've lowered the water level in the
> container, since I don't want him to drown from being unable to reach
> the surface. Swimming those 3 inches is still quite an effort for him
> (but once he sees food up there, he *makes* that effort!). He rests
> on the bottom of the container most of the time, and then works his
> little pectoral fins like mad to get to the surface, after which he
> sinks down, and rests on the curled-under lower half of his body and
> tail, like a mermaid or something. He'll then uncurl and lie there
> until the next surface visit.
>
> So, has anyone experienced a Betta who has become atrophied from
> excessive time in a teensy cup? Any chance of this being the problem?
> Is it likely he'll gain strength and get back in shape? Or do I have
> a permanently disabled Betta?
>
> Renee
> "Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow
Children.'" -Peter Griffin

[Donald Kerns]

NetMax wrote:

> Then I put them into one of my plant tanks
> where I keep female Bettas.

How big are the planted tanks to prevent the females from getting beaten
up?

Wondering, but don't want to risk the experiment...

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[TYNK 7]

(Snipped)

>Subject: Re: Very weak betta
>From: "Josh"
>Date: 8/11/2003 11:19 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I worked at a LFS, if you think those cups they keep them in are bad... you
>should see how they are shipped... They are shipped in a very small sealed
>bag with a medication in the water, but they are shipped in a small bag to
>keep them from being too stressed out, and just to let you know bettas in
>the wild live in about as much water to cover their bodies, so this is not
>imhumaine at all to these wonderful little fish. and yes, that betta prolly
>did die because of age as a betta life expantcy is 1-2 yrs.

Josh,
The wholesale shippers usually ship them in those tiny sealed bags because it's
the safest way to ship that many.
Please don't compair wild Bettas to domestic, long finned Bettas we have in
shops.
The only things you can compair is that they're air breathers that can
*survive* in polluted water.
The Bettas you see in the shop that you work in are not those found in the
wild.
Also, I guess you don't this, but rice paddies are huge bodies of
water....about the size of a lake, and about 18 inches or knee deep.
What you are thinking of is their ability to survive in drout
conditions....with little water, just enough to keep them moist.
That is NOT their normal living conditions.
It is one, small part of the entire story.
The problem is that it's that small part of the Betta's life that folks keep
spreading around.
Check out a picture of an actual Rice Paddy.
http://www.bettastarz.com/ricepaddy.jpg
Quite different from what you thought in your head, right?

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: Re: Very weak betta
>From: "Josh"
>Date: 8/11/2003 11:19 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>that betta prolly
>did die because of age as a betta life expantcy is 1-2 yrs.

Actually, their life span is a bit longer than that.
From hatching, to death..it's common to live 3-4 yrs. Mmany live much longer
than that. I've had a few 5 yr olds, one that was fully gorwn when I got her
and lived 5 yrs with me. That would have made her a minimum of 6 yrs old.
Some folks I know have had them live for 7 yrs, and there's also males that
have lived 9 yrs (in lab type situation).
Most Bettas found in pet shops are 8 months to over a year already.
That's why a pet shop Betta will live 1-2 yrs in your care. They're not born
that size, hehe.
The conditions that they are living in also have a great deal to do with how
long they live.
If kept in a room temp bowl, they're not going to live as long as one kept in a
min. gallon tank, heated to 78-80*f and filtered.

[NetMax]

"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > Then I put them into one of my plant tanks
> > where I keep female Bettas.
>
> How big are the planted tanks to prevent the females from getting
beaten
> up?

Both are 60g, usually with 6 to 20 females each. I alternate my female
Betta purchases between these two tanks so that I don't sell new
arrivals.

NetMax

> Wondering, but don't want to risk the experiment...
>
> -Donald
> --
> "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
> think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[NetMax]

"Renee" > wrote in message
news:3f39aa0b.725089409@nntp...
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:36:20 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
<snip>
> Well, this guy eats like a horse, but getting to the food is a lot of
> work. I did take him to work, and am keeping a close eye on him.
> Amazingly, he seems a lot better, in that he's not curling up so much,
> but he still sinks like a stone the minute he stops working. It's like
> watching a synchronized swimmer with a cinderblock tied to its leg.

I recall something about salt helping regulate osmosis through the swim
bladder. Perhaps a pinch of salt would be helpful. I suggest you check
in alt.aquaria, or the NG archives, or Bettatalk.com for references to
swimbladder problems. Your Betta's swimbladder is not filling properly.
A lowered water level will help in the meantime. The problem might be
genetic, but I'd expect that he would have been culled if it had been
genetic, so then it developed more recently (suggesting it might be
curable).

good luck with the little guy
NetMax

[Donald Kerns]

NetMax wrote:

>> NetMax wrote:
>>
>> > Then I put them into one of my plant tanks
>> > where I keep female Bettas.
>>
>> How big are the planted tanks to prevent the females from getting
> beaten
>> up?
>
> Both are 60g, usually with 6 to 20 females each. I alternate my
> female Betta purchases between these two tanks so that I don't sell
> new arrivals.

OK, so... to reiterate.

Given a 60 gallon heavily planted tank with 6 to 20 females in it, a
male betta can be safely placed in said tank without fear of "the
girls" getting beaten up.

Gotcha!

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Very weak betta
>From: Donald Kerns
>Date: 8/13/2003 1:13 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>NetMax wrote:
>
>>> NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>> > Then I put them into one of my plant tanks
>>> > where I keep female Bettas.
>>>
>>> How big are the planted tanks to prevent the females from getting
>> beaten
>>> up?
>>
>> Both are 60g, usually with 6 to 20 females each. I alternate my
>> female Betta purchases between these two tanks so that I don't sell
>> new arrivals.
>
>OK, so... to reiterate.
>
>Given a 60 gallon heavily planted tank with 6 to 20 females in it, a
>male betta can be safely placed in said tank without fear of "the
>girls" getting beaten up.
>
>Gotcha!
>
>-Donald
>--
>"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
>think straight." -To Inherit the Wind
>

The main thing that needs to be considered is each personality of the
Bettas...male or female.
To date, I've had more aggressive females shred up males than I have males rip
up females.

[Donald Kerns]

TYNK 7 wrote:

>>OK, so... to reiterate.
>>
>>Given a 60 gallon heavily planted tank with 6 to 20 females in it, a
>>male betta can be safely placed in said tank without fear of "the
>>girls" getting beaten up.
>>
>
> The main thing that needs to be considered is each personality of the
> Bettas...male or female.
> To date, I've had more aggressive females shred up males than I have
> males rip up females.

10-4 Tynk.
Watch them closely upon release.

Plan B? The B stands for "betta."

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Very weak betta
>From: Donald Kerns
>Date: 8/14/2003 12:37 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>
>>>OK, so... to reiterate.
>>>
>>>Given a 60 gallon heavily planted tank with 6 to 20 females in it, a
>>>male betta can be safely placed in said tank without fear of "the
>>>girls" getting beaten up.
>>>
>>
>> The main thing that needs to be considered is each personality of the
>> Bettas...male or female.
>> To date, I've had more aggressive females shred up males than I have
>> males rip up females.
>
>10-4 Tynk.
>Watch them closely upon release.
>
>Plan B? The B stands for "betta."
>
>-Donald
>--
Absolutely!!!

[Renee]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:54:59 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>
>"Renee" > wrote in message
>news:3f39aa0b.725089409@nntp...
>> On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:36:20 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
><snip>
>> Well, this guy eats like a horse, but getting to the food is a lot of
>> work. I did take him to work, and am keeping a close eye on him.
>> Amazingly, he seems a lot better, in that he's not curling up so much,
>> but he still sinks like a stone the minute he stops working. It's like
>> watching a synchronized swimmer with a cinderblock tied to its leg.
>
>I recall something about salt helping regulate osmosis through the swim
>bladder. Perhaps a pinch of salt would be helpful. I suggest you check
>in alt.aquaria, or the NG archives, or Bettatalk.com for references to
>swimbladder problems. Your Betta's swimbladder is not filling properly.
>A lowered water level will help in the meantime. The problem might be
>genetic, but I'd expect that he would have been culled if it had been
>genetic, so then it developed more recently (suggesting it might be
>curable).

Once again, thanks for your help. Out of the blue, the little brute
(named Garlic Butter) just "went right". Came into work one morning,
and he was swimming around happy as can be. Making friends with the
snail (named Escargot), and continuing to eat like a horse.

New question - are snails net dirty or net clean? The one the LFS
chick sold me (none of the staff speaks English worth a damn, so
asking a lot of questions is impossible) scoots all over the tank
walls (he's fast!), and appears to be consuming some of the algae.
But the water seems perhaps a little cloudier than it was with the
previous Betta (sans snail). It might just be that the setup is new
(did a full clean-out on the off chance previous Betta did not die of
old age), but I'm just wondering whether adding a snail makes tank
cleaning a more frequent occurrence. Don't know what kind of snail it
is. Pale orange, maybe 1/2 - 2/3 the size of a golf ball. Creepy
little "face" and antennae. Fascinatingly homely, and yet cute.

Actually, do you have any resources for snails? I'd like to be able
to tell if it's not doing well.

Renee
"Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow Children.'" -Peter Griffin