Converting from planted community to Cichlids

[Mark Trueman]

Hi group,

Im thinking about converting my 160litre tank from its current state
as a heavily planted aquarium (co2, ferts etc) to a cichlid tank and i
have a few questions. At the moment i know nothing about cichlids but
quite a lot about aquaria in general. (so im not a newbie per se)

1. Nitrates - my tapwater nitrates are around the 40ppm mark (pretty
much standard here in the uk unfortunately). My planted tank has lower
nitrates than the tap water level. With a cichlid tank, i wont be
having many plants at all so this nitrate level will remain at around
40ppm with regular water changes. Is this ok, or will i have to go
back to using a nitrate removal mechanism such as a nitragon. I was
hoping not to have to if possible.

2. My water parameters are as follows
ph 8.2 out of the tap, hardness around 12.5 dKh, nitrates 40ppm. Most
of the harness is calcium, very little magnesium. Is this OK for the
African cichlids.

3. I would like quite a few colourful cichlids. Any recommendations?
Am i right in thinking that there are dwarf cichlids? How big do they
grow? I appreciate that there are more compatibility issues with
cichlids so i would just like some opinions as to what other people
put in their tanks.

4. Will i need extra filtration? I have an Eheim 2215 cannister filter
at the moment. Seems to do alright with my current fishload, but by
removing the plants, will i have to have extra biological filtration?

5. Algae, having a well planted tank, i have no algae problems with
3.5wpg thanks to ferts and co2 etc. With no plants and this lighting
level, i know i will get algae. What should i reduce lighting to in
order to prevent the build up of algae. I was thinking maybe 80 watts
(2wpg) or less.

Im sure i will have more questions, but thanks in advance for any
replies

Cheers

Mark

[NetMax]

*whew* lots of questions... my ramblings mid-posted..

"Mark Trueman" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi group,
>
> Im thinking about converting my 160litre tank from its current state
> as a heavily planted aquarium (co2, ferts etc) to a cichlid tank and i
> have a few questions. At the moment i know nothing about cichlids but
> quite a lot about aquaria in general. (so im not a newbie per se)

Cichlids can be hard on plants, but in different ways (pulling them out
of the substrate, eating them or accidentally destroying their roots
while digging). Knowing the charcteristics of the cichlids you will be
adding, will help predict the effect on your plants.

> 1. Nitrates - my tapwater nitrates are around the 40ppm mark (pretty
> much standard here in the uk unfortunately). My planted tank has lower
> nitrates than the tap water level. With a cichlid tank, i wont be
> having many plants at all so this nitrate level will remain at around
> 40ppm with regular water changes. Is this ok, or will i have to go
> back to using a nitrate removal mechanism such as a nitragon. I was
> hoping not to have to if possible.

It will be difficult to keep your NO3 near 40ppm without plants. Either
plan a strategy which includes plants, increase your NO3 tolerance (with
some cautions regarding fish moves), or go the chemical route. All
strategies will be heavily influenced by your fish load and type.

> 2. My water parameters are as follows
> ph 8.2 out of the tap, hardness around 12.5 dKh, nitrates 40ppm. Most
> of the harness is calcium, very little magnesium. Is this OK for the
> African cichlids.

If your pH is still 8.2 after 24 hours, and your general hardness is
above 12dgH (as I'd expect with an alkalinity of 12.5dkH) then your are
looking at a variety of hard-water fish, including livebearers, many
rainbows, goldfish, some catfish, and cichlids from the Rift Lakes in
Africa. Cichlids from the African river systems would not be as suitable
(soft-water fish).

> 3. I would like quite a few colourful cichlids. Any recommendations?
> Am i right in thinking that there are dwarf cichlids? How big do they
> grow? I appreciate that there are more compatibility issues with
> cichlids so i would just like some opinions as to what other people
> put in their tanks.

Here are a few sites which discuss African cichlids from the Rift lakes
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/gallery.htm
http://malawicichlids.com/index.htm
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/cichlidrecipe/crindx.htm

If you want to keep a planted tank, there are cichlids which would have
relatively little interest in destroying your plants. Not all are size
suitable (ie: Frontosa) or exceptionally colorful (ie: shellies). Of the
top of my head, Neolamprologous leleupis stay relatively small and are
insectivores (eating the bugs which inhabit planted areas). I think
Brichardi are also plant friendly (except in the immediate spawning
area), stay small and are much more self-replicating than the leleupis
;~)

> 4. Will i need extra filtration? I have an Eheim 2215 cannister filter
> at the moment. Seems to do alright with my current fishload, but by
> removing the plants, will i have to have extra biological filtration?

My strategy would be to try to keep the plants. Once you remove the CO2
(which drops the pH too much for the Africans), you will find some plants
will do poorly, and there will be some die-off, with the survivors
possibly showing new foliage adapted to the water conditions. With
sufficient light (& NO3), you should have some survivors which can be
spread around. Floating plants also fare better than average with
cichlids. Something like Limnobium laevigatum is an NO3 sponge and
shades the substrate, helping to control algae. Hornwort is indiginous
to the Rift lakes (as are some Vals) so should do well in your hard
water.

Also note that the best strategy to having a successful planted African
tank is to have the plants in there first, so the fish (purchased as
juveniles) regard the plants as their environment, rather than lunch. It
is a little heart-breaking to watch them destroy some of the plants (as
they discover that egeria densa is tasty), but with a bit of planning,
(and strategic placement of stones to protect their roots) you can keep
enough types for a very decorative and natural environment (IMO).

> 5. Algae, having a well planted tank, i have no algae problems with
> 3.5wpg thanks to ferts and co2 etc. With no plants and this lighting
> level, i know i will get algae. What should i reduce lighting to in
> order to prevent the build up of algae. I was thinking maybe 80 watts
> (2wpg) or less.

From my limited experience, if you have about 1/3 planted substrate
(growing! plants) and 2/3 covered in floating plants, you can achieve
zero NO3 and minimal algae (usually grows on the floating plants) under
2.5 wpg running 12 hours a day on a hard water tank (8.4pH), no CO2 and
no ferts. It's not the easiest equilibrium to reach, taking about 3-4
months for everything to settle. As you are already planted, it might be
faster (depending on how hospitable your plants will find their new water
conditions). I suspect that unless you're reducing your gH now (with RO,
DI, rainwater etc) that the plants will transition relatively well to
only a higher pH and a lower CO2 level (maybe a 50% die-off?).

> Im sure i will have more questions, but thanks in advance for any
> replies

The more you learn the more questions you'll have. It's actually an
exponential curve (for everything _one_ thing you learn, you have 2 or 3
new questions). Isn't this fun? ;~)

NetMax


> Cheers
>
> Mark

[Mark Trueman]

<Chopped original questions and replies>

Thanks netmax, as always, a very detailed response.

Ive come to some kind of decision!! I will probably wait until my co2 tank
runs out (which shouldnt be too long now) and then i am going to convert. I
have a load of pigmy chain swords and e.tenellus as a carpet in my tank
which i think will have to come up, its starting to get a bit straggly
anyway. Ive always liked vals and i have a few red tipped ones that dont
seem to do too well in the lower ph with co2 but used to grow like anything
pre-co2. I will try to keep these and maybe buy some more to get a nice
dense "val jungle" in one area of my tank to help with nitrate absorbtion. I
dont want too much variation in plants; my current setup i have to pull
meters of hygro and bacopa out every week. Takes me ages! (hence the reason
im moving away from densely planted aquaria). Good thing about vals is that
they can just be lopped off at the top. I will also get some floating
plants as you suggested

I really like the look of slate so ive decided to make a real rock
background with some pieces of thin slate (5-6mm) that i found in my garden
while digging it up. Im going to silicone (aquatic silicone or course) it
all together onto a perspex sheet and put it inside the tank. Should look
like a natural stone wall without taking up too much tank space. Will do the
usual washes/tests etc.

I was also thinking that i have the following fish in my tank, which ones
would i need to get rid of and which ones would you recommend keeping? (i
have put an X by the ones i think are not compatible with cichlids)

1 Male betta X
5 Harlequins
4 Neons X
5 Glowlights X
7 Corys (bronze and pepper mix)
3 Siamese algae eaters (genuine ones ) - not sure about these
3 black mollies (one of which is a 3 month old baby) X
2 Sunset platys X
5 amano shrimp X - i think these make tasty food for cichlids?

I have a list of Cichlids that should be OK together in my tank, got it from
a website somewhere and i like it. I will see if they are available locally
over the weekend and may come back with some more questions about them. The
list is

1m 2f Labidochromis (Mbuna) - I especially like the Mamba yellow top
1m 2f Cynotilapia (Dwarf Mbuna)
1m 2f Copadichromis ("Utuka".) like peacocks
small school of dither fish (harlequins probably)
1 or 2 dwarf pl*cs

What do you think??

Thanks again

Mark

[NetMax]

"Mark Trueman" > wrote in message
.. .
> <Chopped original questions and replies>
>
<snip>

Good plan on the CO2 and plants.

> I was also thinking that i have the following fish in my tank, which
ones
> would i need to get rid of and which ones would you recommend keeping?
(i
> have put an X by the ones i think are not compatible with cichlids)
>
> 1 Male betta X
> 5 Harlequins
> 4 Neons X
> 5 Glowlights X
> 7 Corys (bronze and pepper mix)
> 3 Siamese algae eaters (genuine ones ) - not sure about these
> 3 black mollies (one of which is a 3 month old baby) X
> 2 Sunset platys X
> 5 amano shrimp X - i think these make tasty food for cichlids?

I'd X the rasboras and leave the Mollys & Platys as a continuous source
of live food for the cichlids. These fish are also much more compatable
with the water conditions which will be emerging. I keep Platys in my
120g, and so far the Fronts have been content to leave them alone, but I
suspect the Pictus are benefiting from the Platy fry more than the
cichlids. The SAEs & Corys might find the new water conditions and tank
inhabitants to not be to their liking, ymmv.

> I have a list of Cichlids that should be OK together in my tank, got it
from
> a website somewhere and i like it. I will see if they are available
locally
> over the weekend and may come back with some more questions about them.
The
> list is
>
> 1m 2f Labidochromis (Mbuna) - I especially like the Mamba yellow top
> 1m 2f Cynotilapia (Dwarf Mbuna)
> 1m 2f Copadichromis ("Utuka".) like peacocks
> small school of dither fish (harlequins probably)
> 1 or 2 dwarf pl*cs

Fish combinations are recipes where the ingredients, the portions and the
sequence can all be critical. On the surface I could make some comments
about the size of the Copadichromas, and the disposition of the
Cynotilapia, but you are entering an area which looses some
predictability and is full of surprises. I have no first hand experience
with your combination, so my comments would not carry much credibility.
With some certainty, the water parameters will not be conducive to
Harlequins or even many pl*cos, but the plecs are quite adaptable. Keep
in mind that fish-load greatly influences the chances of success when
doing unusual mixes, so some math on their final sizes might influence
your approach.

cheers
NetMax

> What do you think??
>
> Thanks again
>
> Mark
>
>